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Naming of the new Ukrainian church recognised by the EP

Gorazd

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I often see the name "Автокефальна Православна Церква в Україні", which one could translate as "Autocephalous Orthodox Church in Ukraine". I wonder whethere that is a description or an official name / title ? Should we refer to it in brief as AOCU ?
 

Iconodule

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We should refer to it as what it is- the Ukraine Exarchate of the EP.
 

ialmisry

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Gorazd said:
I often see the name "Автокефальна Православна Церква в Україні", which one could translate as "Autocephalous Orthodox Church in Ukraine". I wonder whethere that is a description or an official name / title ? Should we refer to it in brief as AOCU ?
GOCU-Orthodox only in name.
 

ICXCNIKA

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Gorazd said:
I often see the name "Автокефальна Православна Церква в Україні", which one could translate as "Autocephalous Orthodox Church in Ukraine". I wonder whethere that is a description or an official name / title ? Should we refer to it in brief as AOCU ?
FakeNews
 

LizaSymonenko

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Everyone's Christian love is so endearing.

The Church is called:  Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Ukraine

All thanks and glory be to God.  May the Church serve Him well, and the millions of faithful who will come to worship the Lord and partake of the Holy Sacraments.

This is a day to rejoice and be exceedingly glad.
 

Luke

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^Is your Church connected to that Church now?  How does it work?
 

LizaSymonenko

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We are connected to them as we are to any other canonical Orthodox Church.

The UOCofUSA is and will remain, "of the USA".  Our flock is in the States.
 

Agabus

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Saxon said:
juliogb said:
Does this qualify as cosplay?
This is unfair.

Even though schism is very serious, and sometimes it is a matter of bad faith, often the faith of everyone involved is sincere.

So while I have no time for schismatics*, I don't consider them all to be heretics in playclothes.


*I have no personal opinion about the situation in Ukraine — except that I suspect the Phanar and Moscow are both wrong — since I am willing to admit I only have a Wikipedia level understanding of it.
 

hecma925

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The man desperately wanted the white basset hound hat at any cost.
 

ialmisry

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LizaSymonenko said:
We are connected to them as we are to any other canonical Orthodox Church.

The UOCofUSA is and will remain, "of the USA".  Our flock is in the States.
But they are not a canonical Orthodox Church.
 

Gorazd

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Let's stick to the naming issue, please.

Wikipedia has "Православна церква України" in Ukrainian, and translates this to English as "Orthodox Church of Ukraine".
However, as a Greek name, "Αυτοκέφαλη Ορθόδοξη Εκκλησία της Ουκρανίας" is given, which I would translate as "Autocephalous Orthodox Church of Ukraine".

I am wondering whether that church itself will use the word "Autocephalous" as part of their name after January 6, 2019, when the EP hands them the tomos of autocephaly.
 

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LizaSymonenko said:
We are connected to them as we are to any other canonical Orthodox Church.

The UOCofUSA is and will remain, "of the USA".  Our flock is in the States.
Why do Ukrainian churches under the EP in North America commemorate non-Orthodox (but very much national) figures like Stepan Bandera during Liturgy? Just how widely connected are you people?
 

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Saxon said:
Why do Ukrainian churches under the EP in North America commemorate non-Orthodox (but very much national) figures like Stepan Bandera during Liturgy? Just how widely connected are you people?
If we do, it's hidden pretty well. I never heard it here in UOCC. Maybe some church sticks him in the litany among the reposed. That would be fine with me (and fine if they don't - slightly preferable as he was divisive), except I believe Stepan Bandera was Ukrainian Catholic.
 

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Iconodule said:
We should refer to it as what it is- the Ukraine Exarchate of the EP.
No it isn't.
 

Iconodule

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"Divisive" is certainly one way to describe a genocidal fascist.
 

Iconodule

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A worthwhile analysis of the text of the newly given tomos: https://lb.ua/news/2019/01/06/416557_tomos_ukraini_tipichnoe.html?fbclid=IwAR1HjZB5l3FuigdjYL21yxrIbK4qJG_8og61uao6hYxEkqGZel6DbeaoMew

(In Russian but google translate does a good job)
 

rakovsky

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Iconodule said:
A worthwhile analysis of the text of the newly given tomos: https://lb.ua/news/2019/01/06/416557_tomos_ukraini_tipichnoe.html?fbclid=IwAR1HjZB5l3FuigdjYL21yxrIbK4qJG_8og61uao6hYxEkqGZel6DbeaoMew

(In Russian but google translate does a good job)
The article notes that Ukraine's Church's territory is limited to Ukraine, implying that churches abroad in the Ukrainian Diaspora will have to go under other structures (ie. be subject to the EP like GOARCH and ACROD are). Further, it says that there will be an exarchate in Ukraine and stavropegia. There were major stavropegia of the EP in past centuries in the Ukraine, like the Kiev Caves Monastery.

It also says that the Ustav (like a Constitution) of the Church must match the Tomos. This is because eg. the Church of the Czech and Slovak Lands has an Ustav from 1992 that doesn't match the EP's Tomos of 1998. It notes that the Bulgarians and Romanians insisted on being allowed to make their own Chrism, whereas the EP's Tomoses to Poland, Czechoslovakia, Albania, Greece, and now Ukraine demand that those churches get their Chrism from Constantinople.
 

Iconodule

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Interestingly Met Epiphany is already violating the terms of the tomos by refusing to commemorate Patriarch Kirill. I guess if he and his successors keep that up, the EP can use it as an excuse to revoke their autocephaly if they see fit.
 

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Iconodule said:
Interestingly Met Epiphany is already violating the terms of the tomos by refusing to commemorate Patriarch Kirill. I guess if he and his successors keep that up, the EP can use it as an excuse to revoke their autocephaly if they see fit.
He gets his marching order from the "Honorary Patriarch".
 

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Iconodule said:
Interestingly Met Epiphany is already violating the terms of the tomos by refusing to commemorate Patriarch Kirill. I guess if he and his successors keep that up, the EP can use it as an excuse to revoke their autocephaly if they see fit.
They certainly can but now that they've invested so much on Ukraine it would be kind of embarassing if they suddenly revoked it. Hard to see it happening without current Ecumenical Patriarch retiring or something.
 

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Well, this isn't revoking it, but they are sending it back... briefly.

https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/ukrainian-churchs-autocephaly-tomos-to-be-briefly-returned-to-istanbul-to-be-signed-by-constantinople-patriarchates-synod.html
 

Iconodule

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Alpo said:
Iconodule said:
Interestingly Met Epiphany is already violating the terms of the tomos by refusing to commemorate Patriarch Kirill. I guess if he and his successors keep that up, the EP can use it as an excuse to revoke their autocephaly if they see fit.
They certainly can but now that they've invested so much on Ukraine it would be kind of embarassing if they suddenly revoked it. Hard to see it happening without current Ecumenical Patriarch retiring or something.
I was thinking more 100 years from now or so.
 

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Iconodule said:
Alpo said:
Iconodule said:
Interestingly Met Epiphany is already violating the terms of the tomos by refusing to commemorate Patriarch Kirill. I guess if he and his successors keep that up, the EP can use it as an excuse to revoke their autocephaly if they see fit.
They certainly can but now that they've invested so much on Ukraine it would be kind of embarassing if they suddenly revoked it. Hard to see it happening without current Ecumenical Patriarch retiring or something.
I was thinking more 100 years from now or so.
Fair enough. I guess in that time frame it can happen.
 

PJ26

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I think I need a new staff.  His is so much nicer than this one.
 

LizaSymonenko

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Saxon said:
LizaSymonenko said:
We are connected to them as we are to any other canonical Orthodox Church.

The UOCofUSA is and will remain, "of the USA".  Our flock is in the States.
Why do Ukrainian churches under the EP in North America commemorate non-Orthodox (but very much national) figures like Stepan Bandera during Liturgy? Just how widely connected are you people?
I have NEVER heard him commemorated at any of our churches during Liturgy.  I have attended countless UOC parishes, with countless UOC priests.... and not a single one commemorated him.

I wonder from where you got this mistaken notion.
 

ialmisry

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LizaSymonenko said:
We are connected to them as we are to any other canonical Orthodox Church.

The UOCofUSA is and will remain, "of the USA".  Our flock is in the States.
since the Ucrainican church is not a canonical Orthodox Church, that does not answer the question.

A "bishop" of "UAOC" told me that he was now under Constantinople, but a parisioner of the "KP" "cathedral" said that they were not.
 

ialmisry

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Iconodule said:
A worthwhile analysis of the text of the newly given tomos: https://lb.ua/news/2019/01/06/416557_tomos_ukraini_tipichnoe.html?fbclid=IwAR1HjZB5l3FuigdjYL21yxrIbK4qJG_8og61uao6hYxEkqGZel6DbeaoMew

(In Russian but google translate does a good job)
English here:
https://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2019/01/08/the-tomos-for-ukraine-whats-typical-and-whats-specific/
 

rakovsky

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ialmisry said:
A "bishop" of "UAOC" told me that he was now under Constantinople, but a parisioner of the "KP" "cathedral" said that they were not.
I wonder if the UAOC has practically dissolved itself into a new version of the UOC-KP, since Pat.? Epiphany was the candidate that Pat. Filaret Denisenko insisted on.
 

Alpha60

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ialmisry said:
LizaSymonenko said:
We are connected to them as we are to any other canonical Orthodox Church.

The UOCofUSA is and will remain, "of the USA".  Our flock is in the States.
since the Ucrainican church is not a canonical Orthodox Church, that does not answer the question.

A "bishop" of "UAOC" told me that he was now under Constantinople, but a parisioner of the "KP" "cathedral" said that they were not.
That said, the UOCUSA remains undeniably canonical.  I had some warm conversations a few years ago with Fr. Michael, a former CIA agent who became priest of the Ukrainian Orthodox church in Rhode Island.

Also I would say alongside ROCOR, the UOC in the USA and in Canada is the place where one is most likely to find a particularly beautiful celebration of the divine liturgy.
 

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ialmisry said:
LizaSymonenko said:
We are connected to them as we are to any other canonical Orthodox Church.

The UOCofUSA is and will remain, "of the USA".  Our flock is in the States.
since the Ucrainican church is not a canonical Orthodox Church, that does not answer the question.

A "bishop" of "UAOC" told me that he was now under Constantinople, but a parisioner of the "KP" "cathedral" said that they were not.
A lifelong parishioner at the UOCC cathedral insisted to me that we are not under EP. He was very much mistaken. This happens.
 

StanislavU

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rakovsky said:
ialmisry said:
A "bishop" of "UAOC" told me that he was now under Constantinople, but a parisioner of the "KP" "cathedral" said that they were not.
I wonder if the UAOC has practically dissolved itself into a new version of the UOC-KP, since Pat.? Epiphany was the candidate that Pat. Filaret Denisenko insisted on.
Met. Epiphaniy, and yes, apparently Patr. Emer. Filaret insisted on him quite strongly. Still, it's OCU, and time will tell whether it's "a new version of the UOC-KP" and whether UAOC "dissolved itself" into it. With any luck, the new structure will inherit many things from UOC-KP but will grow distinct from it.
 

RaphaCam

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Since there are also two possible ways to call the country in English, we could settle at calling one "Orthodox Church of Ukraine" and the other "Orthodox Church of the Ukraine".
 

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RaphaCam said:
Since there are also two possible ways to call the country in English, we could settle at calling one "Orthodox Church of Ukraine" and the other "Orthodox Church of the Ukraine".
;D
Why not? Since "the Ukraine" is a pro-Russian wording, I wouldn't mind calling the UOC-MP OCtU
 

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Gorazd said:
Why not? Since "the Ukraine" is a pro-Russian wording, I wouldn't mind calling the UOC-MP OCtU
Only very, very fragile identities worry about silly things like an arbitrary question of English usage. I mean, how many Lebanese get annoyed when older Brits talk about "the Lebanon"?
 

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Samn! said:
Only very, very fragile identities worry about silly things like an arbitrary question of English usage. I mean, how many Lebanese get annoyed when older Brits talk about "the Lebanon"?
Both of Lebanon's neighbours seem to have accepted Lebanon's existence as an independent country by now. Whereas Ukraine has invaders on the ground. Or in other words, when one's existence is under threat, it's natural to be more sensitive about such issues.
 

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Samn! said:
Gorazd said:
Why not? Since "the Ukraine" is a pro-Russian wording, I wouldn't mind calling the UOC-MP OCtU
Only very, very fragile identities worry about silly things like an arbitrary question of English usage. I mean, how many Lebanese get annoyed when older Brits talk about "the Lebanon"?
Or indeed “the Yemen” or “the Sudan.”  Or “the Czech Republic.”  It would be anti-Czech to call the Czech republic something else, in English, in part due to Nazi terminology referring to the region and in part due to the independence of the Czech Republic from Slovakia.  Several countries names are prefaced with the, and the Ukraine is one of them.  This has always been the case, and does not deprecate the country so named; indeed it can signify great power.  The Roman Empire, The British Empire, The Ottoman Empire, the Soviet Union, The United States of America, and so on.  Countries that simply have a proper name with no definite article in common use tend to be smaller nation states.

For example, I propose that The Russian Federation sounds grander than just calling it Russia.  Ukrainians should be thrilled and honoured their country by default has a definite article attaching to it, and Ukrainians protesting the definite article are making a huge error regarding how the English language works; having a definite article before your name is a good thing, a sign of honour, power, prestige or fear.  For example, the two most dreaded freeways in North America are “the 401” in Ontario and “the 405” in greater Los Angeles; also on the list of fear-inspiring highways wouls surely be the Jersey Turnpike, or the Long Island Expressway, in New York City.

This is also why mountain ranges are prefaced with “the.”

Ukrainian members should trust me on this, as someone who desires a strong, independent Ukraine: you want the definite article in your name. 
 

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Gorazd said:
Both of Lebanon's neighbours seem to have accepted Lebanon's existence as an independent country by now. Whereas Ukraine has invaders on the ground. Or in other words, when one's existence is under threat, it's natural to be more sensitive about such issues.
??? The Lebanese live in constant anxiety about another Israeli invasion. Although they withdrew from most of Lebanon in 2000, the Israelis still occupy the Shebaa Farms and have military overflights, often at low altitudes, of Lebanese cities at least every couple weeks. There's still a pretty large UN peacekeeping presence throughout the formerly occupied part of the country, the poorly-named "Interim" Force in Lebanon. Add to that even after the last Syrian troops withdrew in 2005-2006 (when they officially ended a policy of "one nation, two states" and opened an embassy), virtually all of Lebanese politics still revolves around the issue of relations with Syria. Plus, roughly a quarter of people living in Lebanon are Syrians... Add to that the another 5-10% of the population being Palestinians who, while horribly discriminated against in Lebanese law, are also a law unto themselves within their camps... So maybe the Lebanese have too many real worries about sovereignty to police other people's verbal quirks.
 
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