Naming of the new Ukrainian church recognised by the EP

[Gorazd]

Of course, relations with Israel and Syria are complicated, but none of them are trying to annihilate Lebanon.
The Shebaa farms are a special case, because there are both Lebanese and Syrian claims, as well as de facto Israeli control.

And maybe Russia could officially end its "Russian world" policy, and withdraw its troops from Ukraine? 12 years after that, things will be much calmer.

 

[Samn!]

Of course, relations with Israel and Syria are complicated, but none of them are trying to annihilate Lebanon.
The Shebaa farms are a special case, because there are both Lebanese and Syrian claims, as well as de facto Israeli control.

And maybe Russia could officially end its "Russian world" policy, and withdraw its troops from Ukraine? 12 years after that, things will be much calmer.

Yeah, umm.. the Israeli minister of defense has threatened to annihilate Lebanon just about every time he gives a press conference in the past year.

Ukrainian nationalists were unhinged long before the Russky Mir was a thing.

 

[ialmisry]

We are connected to them as we are to any other canonical Orthodox Church.

The UOCofUSA is and will remain, "of the USA".  Our flock is in the States.

since the Ucrainican church is not a canonical Orthodox Church, that does not answer the question.

A "bishop" of "UAOC" told me that he was now under Constantinople, but a parisioner of the "KP" "cathedral" said that they were not.

A lifelong parishioner at the UOCC cathedral insisted to me that we are not under EP. He was very much mistaken. This happens.

Sure does-the Etharch of the Phanar thinks the Ucrainican church is canonical.

The sign outside the "UAOC" "cathedral" still says "Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church."

 

[StanislavU]

Of course, relations with Israel and Syria are complicated, but none of them are trying to annihilate Lebanon.
The Shebaa farms are a special case, because there are both Lebanese and Syrian claims, as well as de facto Israeli control.

And maybe Russia could officially end its "Russian world" policy, and withdraw its troops from Ukraine? 12 years after that, things will be much calmer.

Yeah, umm.. the Israeli minister of defense has threatened to annihilate Lebanon just about every time he gives a press conference in the past year.

Ukrainian nationalists were unhinged long before the Russky Mir was a thing.

...and thus Russia's terrorist tactics in Donbass are justified.
Some version of "Russkii Mir" existed for centuries, long before Ukrainian nationalists were a thing. Eg., "Third Rome" ideology. Or "one, undivided, Russian nation". This stuff is endless.

 

[StanislavU]

Or indeed “the Yemen” or “the Sudan.”  Or “the Czech Republic.”  It would be anti-Czech to call the Czech republic something else, in English, in part due to Nazi terminology referring to the region and in part due to the independence of the Czech Republic from Slovakia.  Several countries names are prefaced with the, and the Ukraine is one of them.  This has always been the case, and does not deprecate the country so named; indeed it can signify great power.  The Roman Empire, The British Empire, The Ottoman Empire, the Soviet Union, The United States of America, and so on.  Countries that simply have a proper name with no definite article in common use tend to be smaller nation states.

For example, I propose that The Russian Federation sounds grander than just calling it Russia.  Ukrainians should be thrilled and honoured their country by default has a definite article attaching to it, and Ukrainians protesting the definite article are making a huge error regarding how the English language works; having a definite article before your name is a good thing, a sign of honour, power, prestige or fear.  For example, the two most dreaded freeways in North America are “the 401” in Ontario and “the 405” in greater Los Angeles; also on the list of fear-inspiring highways wouls surely be the Jersey Turnpike, or the Long Island Expressway, in New York City.

This is also why mountain ranges are prefaced with “the.”

Ukrainian members should trust me on this, as someone who desires a strong, independent Ukraine: you want the definite article in your name.

Yeah... The problem is, Orthodox convert culture is full of Russian memes, taken uncritically and without context. "Great Russian culture" is a powerful brand, especially among West-skeptical Westerners.  So for example, people are being patronizing to Ukrainians, like it is the most natural thing in the world - without even realizing they are doing it - because the "younger brother" thing is just assumed in Russian discourse.

Hey Alpha60, how about you let Ukrainians decide on the name for their country, as well as what connotations different variants entail? Fair enough?

 

[rakovsky]

Since there are also two possible ways to call the country in English, we could settle at calling one "Orthodox Church of Ukraine" and the other "Orthodox Church of the Ukraine".

Grammatically, the land is the Ukraine, whereas the state is Ukraine.

The Urals, the Pacific Ocean, the Andes, the Carolinas, the Middle East, the North (ie. north of the Mason Dixon line) and the South.
But: Russia, Hawaii, Peru, N. and S. Carolina, Saudi Arabia, etc.

Since WWII, Ukraine is generally contiguous with the Ukraine, so there is some potential confusion over terms.
Lemkovyna might be part of the Ukraine, but it's not part of Ukraine.

 

[Sharbel]

...and thus Russia's terrorist tactics in Donbass are justified.

The last time I checked, it was the Ukrainian government which was shelling the people it calls its own.

 

[ialmisry]

Or indeed “the Yemen” or “the Sudan.”  Or “the Czech Republic.”  It would be anti-Czech to call the Czech republic something else, in English, in part due to Nazi terminology referring to the region and in part due to the independence of the Czech Republic from Slovakia.  Several countries names are prefaced with the, and the Ukraine is one of them.  This has always been the case, and does not deprecate the country so named; indeed it can signify great power.  The Roman Empire, The British Empire, The Ottoman Empire, the Soviet Union, The United States of America, and so on.  Countries that simply have a proper name with no definite article in common use tend to be smaller nation states.

For example, I propose that The Russian Federation sounds grander than just calling it Russia.  Ukrainians should be thrilled and honoured their country by default has a definite article attaching to it, and Ukrainians protesting the definite article are making a huge error regarding how the English language works; having a definite article before your name is a good thing, a sign of honour, power, prestige or fear.  For example, the two most dreaded freeways in North America are “the 401” in Ontario and “the 405” in greater Los Angeles; also on the list of fear-inspiring highways wouls surely be the Jersey Turnpike, or the Long Island Expressway, in New York City.

This is also why mountain ranges are prefaced with “the.”

Ukrainian members should trust me on this, as someone who desires a strong, independent Ukraine: you want the definite article in your name.

Yeah... The problem is, Orthodox convert culture is full of Russian memes, taken uncritically and without context. "Great Russian culture" is a powerful brand, especially among West-skeptical Westerners.  So for example, people are being patronizing to Ukrainians, like it is the most natural thing in the world - without even realizing they are doing it - because the "younger brother" thing is just assumed in Russian discourse.

Hey Alpha60, how about you let Ukrainians decide on the name for their country, as well as what connotations different variants entail? Fair enough?

All Ukrainians? And if not all, which and why?

 

[Iconodule]

Good question and one which the nationalists studiously avoid.

 

[StanislavU]

All Ukrainians? And if not all, which and why?

"Surprisingly", popularity of the pro-Moscow discourse plummeted in Ukraine since, oh, 2014. We now have "Russophone patriots", "Russophone nationalists", and even people who embraced the perjorative meme "judeo-Banderite". So to answer your question - wast majority of Ukrainians.

 

[StanislavU]

The last time I checked, it was the Ukrainian government which was shelling the people it calls its own.

Oh, you checked, didn't you? It's not a coincidence that you phrased it in the way that cannot be true.


If "Ukrainian terrorism" existed, you think they would bother to jail obviously innocent people like Sentsov? Or produce laughable propaganda like "Islamist fighter Arseny Yatsenyuk"?

 

[StanislavU]

Since there are also two possible ways to call the country in English, we could settle at calling one "Orthodox Church of Ukraine" and the other "Orthodox Church of the Ukraine".

Grammatically, the land is the Ukraine, whereas the state is Ukraine.

The Urals, the Pacific Ocean, the Andes, the Carolinas, the Middle East, the North (ie. north of the Mason Dixon line) and the South.
But: Russia, Hawaii, Peru, N. and S. Carolina, Saudi Arabia, etc.

Since WWII, Ukraine is generally contiguous with the Ukraine, so there is some potential confusion over terms.
Lemkovyna might be part of the Ukraine, but it's not part of Ukraine.

So, that is how it feels to be mansplained to...

 

[Alpha60]

Or indeed “the Yemen” or “the Sudan.”  Or “the Czech Republic.”  It would be anti-Czech to call the Czech republic something else, in English, in part due to Nazi terminology referring to the region and in part due to the independence of the Czech Republic from Slovakia.  Several countries names are prefaced with the, and the Ukraine is one of them.  This has always been the case, and does not deprecate the country so named; indeed it can signify great power.  The Roman Empire, The British Empire, The Ottoman Empire, the Soviet Union, The United States of America, and so on.  Countries that simply have a proper name with no definite article in common use tend to be smaller nation states.

For example, I propose that The Russian Federation sounds grander than just calling it Russia.  Ukrainians should be thrilled and honoured their country by default has a definite article attaching to it, and Ukrainians protesting the definite article are making a huge error regarding how the English language works; having a definite article before your name is a good thing, a sign of honour, power, prestige or fear.  For example, the two most dreaded freeways in North America are “the 401” in Ontario and “the 405” in greater Los Angeles; also on the list of fear-inspiring highways wouls surely be the Jersey Turnpike, or the Long Island Expressway, in New York City.

This is also why mountain ranges are prefaced with “the.”

Ukrainian members should trust me on this, as someone who desires a strong, independent Ukraine: you want the definite article in your name.

Yeah... The problem is, Orthodox convert culture is full of Russian memes, taken uncritically and without context. "Great Russian culture" is a powerful brand, especially among West-skeptical Westerners.  So for example, people are being patronizing to Ukrainians, like it is the most natural thing in the world - without even realizing they are doing it - because the "younger brother" thing is just assumed in Russian discourse.

Hey Alpha60, how about you let Ukrainians decide on the name for their country, as well as what connotations different variants entail? Fair enough?

To condescend to error is contrary to the function of Alpha 60.

 

[Alpha60]

Good question and one which the nationalists studiously avoid.

+1

 

[Antonis]

So to answer your question - wast majority of Ukrainians.

So Polish-Ukrainians?

 

[ialmisry]

All Ukrainians? And if not all, which and why?

"Surprisingly", popularity of the pro-Moscow discourse plummeted in Ukraine since, oh, 2014.

No surprise. That's how fascism works. State enforced popularity.

We now have "Russophone patriots", "Russophone nationalists", and even people who embraced the perjorative meme "judeo-Banderite". So to answer your question - wast majority of Ukrainians.

Fascism always claims "the "wast" majority"-and the "vast majority" too.

The Svobodists always claimed the other side didn't exist, so I guess the admission of a purported minority is progress.

 

[StanislavU]

No surprise. That's how fascism works. State enforced popularity.

Yeah. Enforcement works so well that the incumbent President comes up third in the polls, behind a woman with controversial past and a popular comic (who played a populist President in a TV series and now in all seriousness runs for the post - under the banner of his party named after that TV series). Also, all three are Easterners who grew up Russophone.

Fascism always claims "the "wast" majority"-and the "vast majority" too.

The Svobodists always claimed the other side didn't exist, so I guess the admission of a purported minority is progress.

This analysis was not even true over 10 years ago when Paul Manafort was helping to craft it. Rejection of Russia's influence now runs the full political spectrum, except the Party of Regions remnants and banned Communist Party. No wonder in time of invasion. Svoboda seems heading to their proper place - divvying up 5% support for Hard Right with a couple of other contenders. Which is where they will be if electorate would not pull a protest vote again (unlikely, because a part or ruling coalition can't really sell itself as a protest vote anymore).

Novadays people in Ukraine reject Russia while in many cases continuing to speak Russian. I had fun reading the interview of two volunteer battalion commanders and politicians, Semen Semenchenko and notorious Dmytro Yarosh. Yarosh cosplays the new incarnation of Bandera, so he gamely speaks Ukrainian - was born in Dniprodzerzhynsk and of course fluent in Russian. Semenchenko, real name Konstantin Grishyn, is an ethnic Russian from Donbass and speaks Russian at all times except when giving "Slava Ukrajini" salutation - and even that's doubtful because Russian version would be nigh-identical. Yes, even in media appearances, and even when appearing with Yarosh as two war comrades. Heck, the President runs on "language" as part of his platform - and candidly discusses how he grew up speaking only Russian (and so did other Top Three candidates).

 

[RaphaCam]

Since there are also two possible ways to call the country in English, we could settle at calling one "Orthodox Church of Ukraine" and the other "Orthodox Church of the Ukraine".

;D
Why not? Since "the Ukraine" is a pro-Russian wording, I wouldn't mind calling the UOC-MP OCtU

LOL I didn't know this, just googled about it... Indeed everything is political nowadays. Schmitt was right.

 

[Iconodule]

I propose a compromise: the country will now be called "Borderland," with no definite article.

 

[Agabus]

Do like the Macedonians and compromise: East Ukraine.

 

[RaphaCam]

If I were Poroshenko, I'd rename the country "Russia" (as in "Kievan Russia") for merely trolling purposes. Many important political moves in Eastern Europe can often be resumed to international/interconfessional/interethnic trolling, so it wouldn't be that weird.

 

[StanislavU]

I propose a compromise: the country will now be called "Borderland," with no definite article.

Let's go wild and rename countries. USA should be "Colonies", with no definite article.

 

[Iconodule]

I propose a compromise: the country will now be called "Borderland," with no definite article.

Let's go wild and rename countries. USA should be "Colonies", with no definite article.

If you're hoping to provoke some Yankee indignation you're barking up the wrong tree.

 

[hecma925]

I propose a compromise: the country will now be called "Borderland," with no definite article.

Let's go wild and rename countries. USA should be "Colonies", with no definite article.

If you're hoping to provoke some Yankee indignation you're barking up the wrong tree.

I had a chuckle.  Then I dumped tea leaves in the toilet and drank corn whiskey, all while shooting my gun in the air.

 

[Agabus]

I propose a compromise: the country will now be called "Borderland," with no definite article.

Let's go wild and rename countries. USA should be "Colonies", with no definite article.

If you're hoping to provoke some Yankee indignation you're barking up the wrong tree.

I had a chuckle.  Then I dumped tea leaves in the toilet and drank corn whiskey, all while shooting my gun in the air.

I knew I did something wrong when I shot the toilet.

 

[hecma925]

I propose a compromise: the country will now be called "Borderland," with no definite article.

Let's go wild and rename countries. USA should be "Colonies", with no definite article.

If you're hoping to provoke some Yankee indignation you're barking up the wrong tree.

I had a chuckle.  Then I dumped tea leaves in the toilet and drank corn whiskey, all while shooting my gun in the air.

I knew I did something wrong when I shot the toilet.

As long as you threw the tea in the air, like confetti, then it's ok.

 

[Agabus]

I propose a compromise: the country will now be called "Borderland," with no definite article.

Let's go wild and rename countries. USA should be "Colonies", with no definite article.

If you're hoping to provoke some Yankee indignation you're barking up the wrong tree.

I had a chuckle.  Then I dumped tea leaves in the toilet and drank corn whiskey, all while shooting my gun in the air.

I knew I did something wrong when I shot the toilet.

As long as you threw the tea in the air, like confetti, then it's ok.

Well, yeah. That's how we start the day.

 

[hecma925]

I propose a compromise: the country will now be called "Borderland," with no definite article.

Let's go wild and rename countries. USA should be "Colonies", with no definite article.

If you're hoping to provoke some Yankee indignation you're barking up the wrong tree.

I had a chuckle.  Then I dumped tea leaves in the toilet and drank corn whiskey, all while shooting my gun in the air.

I knew I did something wrong when I shot the toilet.

As long as you threw the tea in the air, like confetti, then it's ok.

Well, yeah. That's how we start the day.

I got some corn whiskey to share.  Bring some guns and we'll go shooting.

 

[Iconodule]

 

[Alpha60]

No surprise. That's how fascism works. State enforced popularity.

Yeah. Enforcement works so well that the incumbent President comes up third in the polls, behind a woman with controversial past and a popular comic (who played a populist President in a TV series and now in all seriousness runs for the post - under the banner of his party named after that TV series). Also, all three are Easterners who grew up Russophone.

Fascism always claims "the "wast" majority"-and the "vast majority" too.

The Svobodists always claimed the other side didn't exist, so I guess the admission of a purported minority is progress.

This analysis was not even true over 10 years ago when Paul Manafort was helping to craft it. Rejection of Russia's influence now runs the full political spectrum, except the Party of Regions remnants and banned Communist Party. No wonder in time of invasion. Svoboda seems heading to their proper place - divvying up 5% support for Hard Right with a couple of other contenders. Which is where they will be if electorate would not pull a protest vote again (unlikely, because a part or ruling coalition can't really sell itself as a protest vote anymore).

Novadays people in Ukraine reject Russia while in many cases continuing to speak Russian. I had fun reading the interview of two volunteer battalion commanders and politicians, Semen Semenchenko and notorious Dmytro Yarosh. Yarosh cosplays the new incarnation of Bandera, so he gamely speaks Ukrainian - was born in Dniprodzerzhynsk and of course fluent in Russian. Semenchenko, real name Konstantin Grishyn, is an ethnic Russian from Donbass and speaks Russian at all times except when giving "Slava Ukrajini" salutation - and even that's doubtful because Russian version would be nigh-identical. Yes, even in media appearances, and even when appearing with Yarosh as two war comrades. Heck, the President runs on "language" as part of his platform - and candidly discusses how he grew up speaking only Russian (and so did other Top Three candidates).

With a certain chagrin I have to confess a need to bite my tongue to avoid outright guffaws at the Ukrainian spelling of Symeon.  I mean, imagine being paged at an airport or convention center with the name Semen Semenchenko...

 

[Alpha60]

This cartoon aptly demonstrates the rationale for my opposition to some contemporary styles of Royal Doors.  Either go full height or use a curtain, I say. 

 

[RaphaCam]

"United States of America" is probably already the most pretentious modern name anyone came up with for a country. Unless maybe for the first Pakistanis naming their new country "land of the clean" to troll Hindus.

 

[hecma925]

I feel any country with "Kingdom" in the title is even more pretentious.

 

[RaphaCam]

I feel any country with "Kingdom" in the title is even more pretentious.

Kingdom is basically "we have a head". USA is basically "we head". Pakistan is basically "LOL Indians".

 

[hecma925]

I feel any country with "Kingdom" in the title is even more pretentious.

Kingdom is basically "we have a head". USA is basically "we head". Pakistan is basically "LOL Indians".

Very much literal lol.

 

[Alpha60]

"United States of America" is probably already the most pretentious modern name anyone came up with for a country. Unless maybe for the first Pakistanis naming their new country "land of the clean" to troll Hindus.

Except at the time it was adopted, it accurately described the, for the time, highly unusual, federal republic that had just been constituted.  Also, the formal name of Mexico is The United States of Mexico.

I think the Serene Republic of San Marino is a fairly pretentious name, but San Marino is also a pretentious place, with its Captains Regent and other unusual governmental features.  Then we have the Co-Principality of Andorra, reigned over by the President of France and the Bishop of the Diocese of Urquell.

 

[Gorazd]

I like "Brunei, abode of peace"

 

[ialmisry]

Btw, the answer to the title is "Ucrainican church."

 

[rakovsky]

I like "Brunei, abode of peace"

A Brisbane-bound plane from the UK was delayed in Brunei yesterday after a stowaway hamster was found on board.

The high-flying rodent was seen running around the cabin by flight crew and caused the Royal Brunei flight to be evacuated while airline staff searched for it, the Courier-Mail reports. The plane was also fumigated.

https://oldstersview.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/scary-hamster-grounds-royal-brunei-flight/

 

[RaphaCam]

I like "Brunei, abode of peace"

A Brisbane-bound plane from the UK was delayed in Brunei yesterday after a stowaway hamster was found on board.

The high-flying rodent was seen running around the cabin by flight crew and caused the Royal Brunei flight to be evacuated while airline staff searched for it, the Courier-Mail reports. The plane was also fumigated.

https://oldstersview.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/scary-hamster-grounds-royal-brunei-flight/

LOL