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Nature & Person of the Theotokos

serb1389

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So I was having a discussion with some friends last night trying to explain to them that Christ received his humanity from the human nature of the Theotokos.  But her PERSON was not affected by the Divinity because that would be an impeding on her free will. 

Yet, her person WAS affected by the ever-virginity theology. If her virginity was preserved, in what other ways was the Theotokos changed as a Person?  It would be impossible to carry God & not be changed as a person right? 

Any insights on this would be great!  Never thought about it from this angle! 
 

Porter ODoran

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For purposes of pregnancy, a human, biological, function, I feel quite sure it is appropriate to point out the Theotokos was carrying Someone fully human. Funny how this keeps coming up around here; there must be a reason. I'll be attentive for anything definitive to emerge to put the confusion to rest.
 

DeniseDenise

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serb1389 said:
So I was having a discussion with some friends last night trying to explain to them that Christ received his humanity from the human nature of the Theotokos.  But her PERSON was not affected by the Divinity because that would be an impeding on her free will. 

Yet, her person WAS affected by the ever-virginity theology. If her virginity was preserved, in what other ways was the Theotokos changed as a Person?  It would be impossible to carry God & not be changed as a person right? 

Any insights on this would be great!  Never thought about it from this angle! 

This is not a theological answer in any way shape or form...please do not think of it or take it as such. ;)

Her virginity was preserved because SHE still chose not to have relations after carrying God.  I do not believe that it was somehow made physically impossible for her to have done so, it was a choice she made.
 

minasoliman

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Well, what is a "person"?  Certain experiences could "change a person", that is one's perspective and views in life that forms and builds up their character and personality.  In this case, all of us as persons change day by day.
 

Nicene

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Isn't the point of the incarnation that Christ became so much like us that we could be redeemed? Mary wasn't changed, in my opinion, in any physical sense, sanctified perhaps and made exceptionally holy no one should doubt, but a change to her nature? I think she retained her nature, her humanity as is.

That is, if I have understood the question.
 

LBK

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DeniseDenise said:
serb1389 said:
So I was having a discussion with some friends last night trying to explain to them that Christ received his humanity from the human nature of the Theotokos.  But her PERSON was not affected by the Divinity because that would be an impeding on her free will. 

Yet, her person WAS affected by the ever-virginity theology. If her virginity was preserved, in what other ways was the Theotokos changed as a Person?  It would be impossible to carry God & not be changed as a person right? 

Any insights on this would be great!  Never thought about it from this angle! 

This is not a theological answer in any way shape or form...please do not think of it or take it as such. ;)

Her virginity was preserved because SHE still chose not to have relations after carrying God.  I do not believe that it was somehow made physically impossible for her to have done so, it was a choice she made.
Further to what Denise has said, there are various hymns to the Mother of God which express the incomprehensible paradox and mystery of a human, mortal woman conceiving, bearing, and nurturing her very Creator. One of the more eloquent is this Theotokion:

As a virgin you gave birth, and a virgin you remained by nature, your womb giving birth painlessly. For He who was born of you renewed the laws of nature, since when God wills it, nature’s order is overthrown.
 

FatherHLL

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serb1389 said:
So I was having a discussion with some friends last night trying to explain to them that Christ received his humanity from the human nature of the Theotokos.  But her PERSON was not affected by the Divinity because that would be an impeding on her free will.  

Yet, her person WAS affected by the ever-virginity theology. If her virginity was preserved, in what other ways was the Theotokos changed as a Person?  It would be impossible to carry God & not be changed as a person right?  

Any insights on this would be great!  Never thought about it from this angle!  
I realize the discussion was bigger and this is just a summary.  I am not sure that I can agree with the statement (as written, but I know that on these forums sometimes our words get cut short) that her person was not affected by the Divinity because that would be impeding on her free will.  The Energy is also Divinity, and she had to be affected by it, and it was precisely her free will (and thus synergeia) by which God made her "full of grace," grace being the energetic Divinity (Divine Energy).  Her personhood was not "changed" in the sense that she became a different human hypostasis, but it was changed kat'energeia, fully and completely.  The perpetual virginity was part of her accepting the supreme vocation given to her, but in no way was it ever necessitated against her will, but something that she chose daily to uphold, until she was translated in the Dormition (but still obviously is always affected by, thus "is" not "was").  When we acclaim her as "our Lady," we have many things before we reach the ever-Virginity, All-holy, pure, highly blessed, and glorious.  Then we reach "Lady" (and Theotokos) before we reach that she was "ever-Virgin."  So all these qualities, but also that she is "Lady" (Despinis).  While the ever-virginity is fact, when commemorating her in Proskomedia we commemorate her as Lady, Queen, when we say "the Queen stood at Thy right side arrayed in golden robes all glorious" and we cut and place the particle next to the Lamb (on the right side of the Lamb, from the Lamb's perspective).  The point is that we mention her as Queen (Lady), as glorious, but also recognize the most important thing, that is, her proximity to the Lamb of God.  
 

Maria

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Father H said:
serb1389 said:
So I was having a discussion with some friends last night trying to explain to them that Christ received his humanity from the human nature of the Theotokos.  But her PERSON was not affected by the Divinity because that would be an impeding on her free will.  

Yet, her person WAS affected by the ever-virginity theology. If her virginity was preserved, in what other ways was the Theotokos changed as a Person?  It would be impossible to carry God & not be changed as a person right?  

Any insights on this would be great!  Never thought about it from this angle!  
I realize the discussion was bigger and this is just a summary.  I am not sure that I can agree with the statement (as written, but I know that on these forums sometimes our words get cut short) that her person was not affected by the Divinity because that would be impeding on her free will.  The Energy is also Divinity, and she had to be affected by it, and it was precisely her free will (and thus synergeia) by which God made her "full of grace," grace being the energetic Divinity (Divine Energy).  Her personhood was not "changed" in the sense that she became a different human hypostasis, but it was changed kat'energeia, fully and completely.  The perpetual virginity was part of her accepting the supreme vocation given to her, but in no way was it ever necessitated against her will, but something that she chose daily to uphold, until she was translated in the Dormition (but still obviously is always affected by, thus "is" not "was").  When we acclaim her as "our Lady," we have many things before we reach the ever-Virginity, All-holy, pure, highly blessed, and glorious.  Then we reach "Lady" (and Theotokos) before we reach that she was "ever-Virgin."  So all these qualities, but also that she is "Lady" (Despinis).  While the ever-virginity is fact, when commemorating her in Proskomedia we commemorate her as Lady, Queen, when we say "the Queen stood at Thy right side arrayed in golden robes all glorious" and we cut and place the particle next to the Lamb (on the right side of the Lamb, from the Lamb's perspective).  The point is that we mention her as Queen (Lady), as glorious, but also recognize the most important thing, that is, her proximity to the Lamb of God.  
POM nominee

Excellent, Father H.
 

minasoliman

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The angle on the free will is an interesting one.  I am not sure I can follow why there would be an impediment on free will with the ever-virginity theology.  In my understanding, the ever-virginity was a given because that was something she was already planning to be whether or not she knew she would carry God.  Therefore, it seems to me God chose someone who already freely wanted to be "ever-Virgin".
 

NicholasMyra

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serb1389 said:
So I was having a discussion with some friends last night trying to explain to them that Christ received his humanity from the human nature of the Theotokos.  But her PERSON was not affected by the Divinity because that would be an impeding on her free will.  
If being affected impedes our wills in some unacceptable way, then we're all out of luck. We all find ourselves circumscribed and acted upon in myriad ways.

The Scriptures are clear that God acts on us, and affects change in us; not only in the sense of our "natures" (however you parse that out), but in terms of the "who" we are.

But AFAIK, nobody teaches that the Ever-virginity doctrine means that God compelled the Virgin Mary not to have sexual intercourse, or something like that. When it says that God "preserved her virginity" it's referring to her hymen not being broken during Christ's conception or birth (the problems with the hymen-preservation=virginity idea could be discussed in another thread).

 
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