• For users new and old: the forum rules were streamlined when we transitioned to the new software. Please ensure that you are familiar with them. Continued use of the forum means that you (a) know the rules, and (b) pledge that you'll abide by them. For more information, check out the OrthodoxChristianity.Net Rules section. (There are only 2 threads there - Rules, and Administrative Structure.)

New Ukrainian Catholic leader to ask Pope for patriarchal status

Paisius

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
1,341
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
43
Location
Florida
Two days after his March 27 enthronement as head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, Major Archbishop Sviatoslav Shevchuk said he would ask Pope Benedict to raise the Eastern Catholic church to the dignity of a patriarchate.

Link
 

Iconodule

Hoplitarches
Joined
Jan 2, 2010
Messages
16,486
Reaction score
10
Points
38
Age
38
Location
PA, USA
Is it true that cardinals outrank Patriarchs in the Catholic Church?
 

mike

Protostrator
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
24,873
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
30
Location
Białystok / Warsaw
Iconodule said:
Is it true that cardinals outrank Patriarchs in the Catholic Church?
AFAIK Patriarch is just a honorific title with no practical features. On the other hand Cardinal title gives the possibility to vote for the Pope (and be voted too).
 

Monk Vasyl

High Elder
Joined
Oct 3, 2002
Messages
623
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
69
Location
Boston
Website
www.ukrainianorthodox.org
Iconodule said:
Is it true that cardinals outrank Patriarchs in the Catholic Church?
Generally, certain positions will lead to the bishop becoming a cardinal.  Archbishops for the See of Boston, within a couple of years of their appointment are elevated to cardinal. Previous Major Archbishops (sounds so military...lol) have all been made cardinals.  It will only be a matter of time before the new Major Archbishop will be enrolled into the College of Cardinals. Tho, due to his age, they may wait a bit longer than usual. 
 

Iconodule

Hoplitarches
Joined
Jan 2, 2010
Messages
16,486
Reaction score
10
Points
38
Age
38
Location
PA, USA
Monk Vasyl said:
Iconodule said:
Is it true that cardinals outrank Patriarchs in the Catholic Church?
Generally, certain positions will lead to the bishop becoming a cardinal.  Archbishops for the See of Boston, within a couple of years of their appointment are elevated to cardinal. Previous Major Archbishops (sounds so military...lol) have all been made cardinals.  It will only be a matter of time before the new Major Archbishop will be enrolled into the College of Cardinals. Tho, due to his age, they may wait a bit longer than usual.  
But if a Patriarch be not a cardinal, he will be outranked by a cardinal, yes?
 

welkodox

Archon
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
2,076
Reaction score
0
Points
0
He's going to be a Cardinal as his predecessor was, and is addressed as Patriarch unofficially.  The question is do they make it official, meaning changing the title on paper.

I don't see why anyone cares.
 

ialmisry

Strategos
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
41,813
Reaction score
8
Points
38
Location
Chicago
Michał Kalina said:
Iconodule said:
Is it true that cardinals outrank Patriarchs in the Catholic Church?
AFAIK Patriarch is just a honorific title with no practical features. On the other hand Cardinal title gives the possibility to vote for the Pope (and be voted too).
Actually, anyone (male and in communion that is) can be elected.  You don't even have to be a deacon.  I thought all of their patrirarchs were cardinals ex officio.
 

ialmisry

Strategos
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
41,813
Reaction score
8
Points
38
Location
Chicago
Schultz said:
Good luck with that.
Yeah, given the recent play up in the Vatican News services about Pat. Kirill and Met. Hilarion and improving relations, it would be interesting.
 

Hermogenes

Elder
Joined
Nov 22, 2010
Messages
493
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Iconodule said:
Is it true that cardinals outrank Patriarchs in the Catholic Church?
No. Patriarchs of the Eastern Rite may be cardinals, however, in which case they always belong to the order of cardinal bishops. But a number of Latin Rite archbishops have the title patriarch, such as the patriarch of Venice, the patriarch of Lisbon, and the patriarch of the Gauls. They are normally cardinals, but the red hat is never automatic. And the Latin patriarch of Jerusalem isn't a cardinal, either in fact or by custom.
 

Iconodule

Hoplitarches
Joined
Jan 2, 2010
Messages
16,486
Reaction score
10
Points
38
Age
38
Location
PA, USA
Hermogenes said:
Iconodule said:
Is it true that cardinals outrank Patriarchs in the Catholic Church?
No. Patriarchs of the Eastern Rite may be cardinals, however, in which case they always belong to the order of cardinal bishops. But a number of Latin Rite archbishops have the title patriarch, such as the patriarch of Venice, the patriarch of Lisbon, and the patriarch of the Gauls. They are normally cardinals, but the red hat is never automatic. And the Latin patriarch of Jerusalem isn't a cardinal, either in fact or by custom.
Okay, but hypothetically speaking, if a bishop is a patriarch, but not a cardinal, would a non-patriarch cardinal outrank him?
 

mike

Protostrator
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
24,873
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
30
Location
Białystok / Warsaw
Outrank where? In what area? You are now trying to compare color and size.

Cardinal is a function and Patriarch is a rank. Cardinal is the second highest function in the Catholic Church. Patriarch is the second highest title of the Catholic Church.
 

ialmisry

Strategos
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
41,813
Reaction score
8
Points
38
Location
Chicago
Hermogenes said:
Iconodule said:
Is it true that cardinals outrank Patriarchs in the Catholic Church?
No. Patriarchs of the Eastern Rite may be cardinals, however, in which case they always belong to the order of cardinal bishops. But a number of Latin Rite archbishops have the title patriarch, such as the patriarch of Venice, the patriarch of Lisbon, and the patriarch of the Gauls. They are normally cardinals, but the red hat is never automatic. And the Latin patriarch of Jerusalem isn't a cardinal, either in fact or by custom.
He isn't sui juris either. Just another Latin bishop.
 

James

Archon
Joined
May 31, 2003
Messages
2,749
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
69
Location
Ventura, California
If it wasn't given previously I would not hold my breath, heck the ink of his signature hasn't dryed yet...

 

elijahmaria

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
6,515
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
irenikontheskete.blogspot.com
I think that he must make the request and he needs to make it immediately and anyone who thinks that Pope Benedict doesn't or didn't know it was coming must live under a mushroom cap.

It is the best thing for Ukriane and most likely will be good for the entire region, including Russia, though I expect the MP would not necessarily share those sediments....pun.

 

kijabeboy03

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
1,085
Reaction score
0
Points
38
If the Eastern Catholic Churches are Rome's sisters, then why do they need the Vatican's permission to change the title of one of their heads? Shouldn't the decision of the Holy Synod of the Ukrainian Catholic Church be official enough?
 

podkarpatska

Merarches
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
Messages
9,732
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
Northeast United States
Website
www.acrod.org
kijabeboy03 said:
If the Eastern Catholic Churches are Rome's sisters, then why do they need the Vatican's permission to change the title of one of their heads? Shouldn't the decision of the Holy Synod of the Ukrainian Catholic Church be official enough?
Indeed, those are the types of questions that I often pose to my Eastern Catholic friends in the context of what being a 'sui juris' Church means.

BTW, the new Major-Archbishop has to make this request as it is expected by his flock. I would anticipate that the answer from Rome will be as it has been for some years.  The Greek Catholics will honor him as Patriarch anyway, and the rest of us will use the Major-Archbishop title.
 

kijabeboy03

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
1,085
Reaction score
0
Points
38
No doubt, tho' perhaps Metropolitan Hilarion's response to Metropolitan Svyatoslav's enthronement will embolden Rome to approve a change?

http://www.ugcc.org.ua/news_single.0.html?&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=4832&cHash=e1343ac7308e74dfdb5ece2d1251b62a
 

podkarpatska

Merarches
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
Messages
9,732
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
Northeast United States
Website
www.acrod.org
kijabeboy03 said:
No doubt, tho' perhaps Metropolitan Hilarion's response to Metropolitan Svyatoslav's enthronement will embolden Rome to approve a change?

http://www.ugcc.org.ua/news_single.0.html?&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=4832&cHash=e1343ac7308e74dfdb5ece2d1251b62a
There was nothing on that link?
 

mike

Protostrator
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
24,873
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
30
Location
Białystok / Warsaw
You have to paste it into your browser. As you can see not the whole one is the active link.
 

elijahmaria

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
6,515
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
irenikontheskete.blogspot.com
kijabeboy03 said:
If the Eastern Catholic Churches are Rome's sisters, then why do they need the Vatican's permission to change the title of one of their heads? Shouldn't the decision of the Holy Synod of the Ukrainian Catholic Church be official enough?
If you actually read what the Archbishop has said, it becomes more clear, at least clear to me that the latest Ukrainian Patriarch is going to Rome to "explain" why the UGCC is a patriarchate in the traditional meaning and emergence of the term.  He will ask for the Pope's blessing.  He may receive it.  He may not.  He may yield to what the Pope tells him about public display of the title, he may not.

We are living in a brave new ecclesial world folks.  I am enjoying watching it unfold and am very happy to be alive in these invigorating times full of new saints and martyrs and renewed understandings of Church, Mystery, Mystical Body, Communion and Caritas.

Glory be to God!
 

mike

Protostrator
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
24,873
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
30
Location
Białystok / Warsaw
elijahmaria said:
If you actually read what the Archbishop has said, it becomes more clear, at least clear to me that the latest Ukrainian Patriarch is going to Rome to "explain" why the UGCC is a patriarchate in the traditional meaning and emergence of the term.  He will ask for the Pope's blessing.  He may receive it.  He may not.  He may yield to what the Pope tells him about public display of the title, he may not.
According to his own Church he is a Major Archbishop. His flock may call him an Ayatollah but they won't change the reality.

I really doubt he can disobey the Pope and start using the Patriarch title  without his approval. Can you prove it?

It clearly shows how in reality Pope treats with his Eastern flock.
 

elijahmaria

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
6,515
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
irenikontheskete.blogspot.com
kijabeboy03 said:
No doubt, tho' perhaps Metropolitan Hilarion's response to Metropolitan Svyatoslav's enthronement will embolden Rome to approve a change?

http://www.ugcc.org.ua/news_single.0.html?&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=4832&cHash=e1343ac7308e74dfdb5ece2d1251b62a
As I said the other day I don't believe this trip and its purposes will come as much of a shock to Pope Benedict since every audience has its advance agenda established in writing...and the Archbishop's own plans are not secret.
 

Monk Vasyl

High Elder
Joined
Oct 3, 2002
Messages
623
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
69
Location
Boston
Website
www.ukrainianorthodox.org
kijabeboy03 said:
No doubt, tho' perhaps Metropolitan Hilarion's response to Metropolitan Svyatoslav's enthronement will embolden Rome to approve a change?

http://www.ugcc.org.ua/news_single.0.html?&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=4832&cHash=e1343ac7308e74dfdb5ece2d1251b62a
What did Metropolitan Hilarion say?
 

podkarpatska

Merarches
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
Messages
9,732
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
Northeast United States
Website
www.acrod.org
Michał Kalina said:
You have to paste it into your browser. As you can see not the whole one is the active link.
Thank you, the Google translation was awful, but I got the gist.

I wouldn't expect much of a change as Metropolitan Hilarion is not know for any history of kind words towards the Greek Catholics.
 

elijahmaria

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
6,515
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
irenikontheskete.blogspot.com
Michał Kalina said:
elijahmaria said:
If you actually read what the Archbishop has said, it becomes more clear, at least clear to me that the latest Ukrainian Patriarch is going to Rome to "explain" why the UGCC is a patriarchate in the traditional meaning and emergence of the term.  He will ask for the Pope's blessing.  He may receive it.  He may not.  He may yield to what the Pope tells him about public display of the title, he may not.
According to his own Church he is a Major Archbishop. His flock may call him an Ayatollah but they won't change the reality.

I really doubt he can disobey the Pope and start using the Patriarch title  without his approval. Can you prove it?

It clearly shows how in reality Pope treats with his Eastern flock.
If he does not use the title in that case, it will be because he chooses not to for the good of the whole Church.

You all act as if eastern bishops are impotent pee-stained old men who can't do anything without aid and assistance.

No.  IF the Unia has been treated badly, our bishops have as much to bear with that as anyone in the Vatican.  That is but one of the widely ignored elephants in the living room.

 

podkarpatska

Merarches
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
Messages
9,732
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
Northeast United States
Website
www.acrod.org
Michał Kalina said:
elijahmaria said:
If you actually read what the Archbishop has said, it becomes more clear, at least clear to me that the latest Ukrainian Patriarch is going to Rome to "explain" why the UGCC is a patriarchate in the traditional meaning and emergence of the term.  He will ask for the Pope's blessing.  He may receive it.  He may not.  He may yield to what the Pope tells him about public display of the title, he may not.
According to his own Church he is a Major Archbishop. His flock may call him an Ayatollah but they won't change the reality.

I really doubt he can disobey the Pope and start using the Patriarch title  without his approval. Can you prove it?

It clearly shows how in reality Pope treats with his Eastern flock.
It is the whole 'sui juris' issue again. With our without the Vatican's approval or disapproval, the UGCC faithful and clergy will call him Patriarch as they did to his predecessors. This would happen even if the official publications of the UGCC used the Major Archbishop title.
 

mike

Protostrator
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
24,873
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
30
Location
Białystok / Warsaw
elijahmaria said:
You all act as if eastern bishops are impotent pee-stained old men who can't do anything without aid and assistance.
Election of each and every UC Bishop has to be approved by Vatican.

http://www.ugcc.org.ua./news_single.0.html?&L=4&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=3462&cHash=aabd94cf21407d36e72fb4d21aca9134&type=98
 

elijahmaria

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
6,515
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
irenikontheskete.blogspot.com
Michał Kalina said:
elijahmaria said:
You all act as if eastern bishops are impotent pee-stained old men who can't do anything without aid and assistance.
Election of each and every UC Bishop has to be approved by Vatican.

http://www.ugcc.org.ua./news_single.0.html?&L=4&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=3462&cHash=aabd94cf21407d36e72fb4d21aca9134&type=98
Unless there is some circumstance that is compelling concerning any one of the men put forward for election, the "approval" is a blessing on the chosen candidate.

There is a list of three names listed in rank order approved by the synod and sent to Rome.  How many times have we seen it that the first name on the list has not become bishop.  Only in Churches who have had very venal and sinful leadership, and are about to clone another one,  has Rome intervened to help them find a candidate more morally, spiritually and ecclesiastically suited to lead a diocese or a particular Church.

It's not at all a high handed conspiracy against anyone or any Church.





 

kijabeboy03

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
1,085
Reaction score
0
Points
38
So there are no truly autocephalous or autonomous churches in modern Roman Catholicism then, just self-governing churches organized by rite?
 

elijahmaria

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
6,515
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
irenikontheskete.blogspot.com
kijabeboy03 said:
So there are no truly autocephalous or autonomous churches in modern Roman Catholicism then, just self-governing churches organized by rite?
Compared to what? Orthodoxy's "truly' autocephalous Churches?...the ones who don't need ANYONE's signature on the election of a new bishop or Metropolitan?
 

kijabeboy03

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
1,085
Reaction score
0
Points
38
No offense, but the canons of the early ecumenical councils established that each regional church (what eventually coalesced into the Churches of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem) was responsible through its synod for the election of new bishops. There was no talk of forwarding nominations onto another synod, much less a single bishop. No offense intended! God knows the Local Orthodox Churches could stand to coordinate a little more closely than they tend to do at the present.
 

elijahmaria

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
6,515
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
irenikontheskete.blogspot.com
kijabeboy03 said:
No offense, but the canons of the early ecumenical councils established that each regional church (what eventually coalesced into the Churches of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem) was responsible through its synod for the election of new bishops. There was no talk of forwarding nominations onto another synod, much less a single bishop. No offense intended! God knows the Local Orthodox Churches could stand to coordinate a little more closely than they tend to do at the present.
No offense taken.

If all bishops are equal and local synodal election of bishops is canonical, why do we have this, for example:

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/7408.htm
 

welkodox

Archon
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
2,076
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Because that church is semi autonomous.  A truly self ruling church cannot have its primate confirmed by another.
 

elijahmaria

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
6,515
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
irenikontheskete.blogspot.com
AMM said:
Because that church is semi autonomous.  A truly self ruling church cannot have its primate confirmed by another.
My question is more broad reaching than that.  Why does ANY local synod need to have that kind of primatial endorsement or blessing IF as all Orthodoxy seems to say "all bishops are equal"....Why does it not STOP with the local Synod. 

Where the bishop is; there is the Church...no? 

Well I am thinking with the evidence before me...perhaps not.
 
Top