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NLM - “Our Fidelity to the See of Peter”

Mor Ephrem

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Earlier today, His Beatitude Sviatoslav Shevchuk, Major Archbishop of Kiev-Halych and leader of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, celebrated a hierarchical Divine Liturgy at the high altar of the Roman basilica of St Mary Major.

...

He spoke of the persecutions which the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church has undergone over the years, and how “the voice of the Evil One” (la voce del maligno) tried 70 years ago to force the Church which he leads to renounce its fidelity to See of Peter. He then stated that the same voice now seeks to convince them to become Orthodox or join the Patriarchate of Moscow “so as not to be an obstacle.”

http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2016/03/our-fidelity-to-see-of-peter-ukrainian.html
 

ialmisry

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Mor Ephrem said:
Earlier today, His Beatitude Sviatoslav Shevchuk, Major Archbishop of Kiev-Halych and leader of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, celebrated a hierarchical Divine Liturgy at the high altar of the Roman basilica of St Mary Major.

...

He spoke of the persecutions which the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church has undergone over the years, and how “the voice of the Evil One” (la voce del maligno) tried 70 years ago to force the Church which he leads to renounce its fidelity to See of Peter. He then stated that the same voice now seeks to convince them to become Orthodox or join the Patriarchate of Moscow “so as not to be an obstacle.”

http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2016/03/our-fidelity-to-see-of-peter-ukrainian.html
Uh, whom did the Lord call "Satan"?
 

Antonis

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I take it His Beatitude is saying "I am of Cephas."
 

Deacon Lance

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ialmisry said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Earlier today, His Beatitude Sviatoslav Shevchuk, Major Archbishop of Kiev-Halych and leader of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, celebrated a hierarchical Divine Liturgy at the high altar of the Roman basilica of St Mary Major.

...

He spoke of the persecutions which the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church has undergone over the years, and how “the voice of the Evil One” (la voce del maligno) tried 70 years ago to force the Church which he leads to renounce its fidelity to See of Peter. He then stated that the same voice now seeks to convince them to become Orthodox or join the Patriarchate of Moscow “so as not to be an obstacle.”

http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2016/03/our-fidelity-to-see-of-peter-ukrainian.html
Uh, whom did the Lord call "Satan"?
St. Peter, when he attempted to dissuade Our Lord from going to his passion.  Interesting reference, because the MP tried to dissuade the Ukrainian and Rusyn Greek Catholic Churches from going to their passion and urged cooperation with the Soviets and assimilation with the MP as the way to avoid it.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Deacon Lance said:
ialmisry said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Earlier today, His Beatitude Sviatoslav Shevchuk, Major Archbishop of Kiev-Halych and leader of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, celebrated a hierarchical Divine Liturgy at the high altar of the Roman basilica of St Mary Major.

...

He spoke of the persecutions which the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church has undergone over the years, and how “the voice of the Evil One” (la voce del maligno) tried 70 years ago to force the Church which he leads to renounce its fidelity to See of Peter. He then stated that the same voice now seeks to convince them to become Orthodox or join the Patriarchate of Moscow “so as not to be an obstacle.”

http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2016/03/our-fidelity-to-see-of-peter-ukrainian.html
Uh, whom did the Lord call "Satan"?
St. Peter, when he attempted to dissuade Our Lord from going to his passion.  Interesting reference, because the MP tried to dissuade the Ukrainian and Rusyn Greek Catholic Churches from going to their passion and urged cooperation with the Soviets and assimilation with the MP as the way to avoid it.
Oh man, this is a veritable Celebrity Typology Deathmatch!
 

ialmisry

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Deacon Lance said:
ialmisry said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Earlier today, His Beatitude Sviatoslav Shevchuk, Major Archbishop of Kiev-Halych and leader of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, celebrated a hierarchical Divine Liturgy at the high altar of the Roman basilica of St Mary Major.

...

He spoke of the persecutions which the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church has undergone over the years, and how “the voice of the Evil One” (la voce del maligno) tried 70 years ago to force the Church which he leads to renounce its fidelity to See of Peter. He then stated that the same voice now seeks to convince them to become Orthodox or join the Patriarchate of Moscow “so as not to be an obstacle.”

http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2016/03/our-fidelity-to-see-of-peter-ukrainian.html
Uh, whom did the Lord call "Satan"?
St. Peter, when he attempted to dissuade Our Lord from going to his passion.  Interesting reference, because the MP tried to dissuade the Ukrainian and Rusyn Greek Catholic Churches from going to their passion and urged cooperation with the Soviets and assimilation with the MP as the way to avoid it.
It was the Soviets who spurned the UGCC, not the reverse. One of Met. Sheptytskyi's final acts was sending a donation by the hand of his succesor Met. Slypyi's to Stalin for the Soviet Army's Red Cross.

The Passion of those fleeing the UGCC and Uzhhorod for assimilation with the MP and Orthodoxy started under the Austrian Hungarians (and their Poles) decades even before Franz Josef herded them into the concentration camps at Thalerhof etc. to dissuade them. The MP joined them in 1917 in their Passion, while the UGCC cooperated with the Vatican and Second Polish Republic as the way to avoid it.

A martyr for Cephas is not a Christian martyr. The MP urged going to their passion for Christ, and not the guy claiming to be His vicar.
 

Deacon Lance

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ialmisry said:
Deacon Lance said:
ialmisry said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Earlier today, His Beatitude Sviatoslav Shevchuk, Major Archbishop of Kiev-Halych and leader of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, celebrated a hierarchical Divine Liturgy at the high altar of the Roman basilica of St Mary Major.

...

He spoke of the persecutions which the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church has undergone over the years, and how “the voice of the Evil One” (la voce del maligno) tried 70 years ago to force the Church which he leads to renounce its fidelity to See of Peter. He then stated that the same voice now seeks to convince them to become Orthodox or join the Patriarchate of Moscow “so as not to be an obstacle.”

http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2016/03/our-fidelity-to-see-of-peter-ukrainian.html
Uh, whom did the Lord call "Satan"?
St. Peter, when he attempted to dissuade Our Lord from going to his passion.  Interesting reference, because the MP tried to dissuade the Ukrainian and Rusyn Greek Catholic Churches from going to their passion and urged cooperation with the Soviets and assimilation with the MP as the way to avoid it.
It was the Soviets who spurned the UGCC, not the reverse. One of Met. Sheptytskyi's final acts was sending a donation by the hand of his succesor Met. Slypyi's to Stalin for the Soviet Army's Red Cross.

The Passion of those fleeing the UGCC and Uzhhorod for assimilation with the MP and Orthodoxy started under the Austrian Hungarians (and their Poles) decades even before Franz Josef herded them into the concentration camps at Thalerhof etc. to dissuade them. The MP joined them in 1917 in their Passion, while the UGCC cooperated with the Vatican and Second Polish Republic as the way to avoid it.

A martyr for Cephas is not a Christian martyr. The MP urged going to their passion for Christ, and not the guy claiming to be His vicar.
So now you are denying the Greek Catholic's persecution by the Soviets?  This is why people are fleeing the MP for the KP and UGCC.
 

ialmisry

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Deacon Lance said:
ialmisry said:
Deacon Lance said:
ialmisry said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Earlier today, His Beatitude Sviatoslav Shevchuk, Major Archbishop of Kiev-Halych and leader of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, celebrated a hierarchical Divine Liturgy at the high altar of the Roman basilica of St Mary Major.

...

He spoke of the persecutions which the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church has undergone over the years, and how “the voice of the Evil One” (la voce del maligno) tried 70 years ago to force the Church which he leads to renounce its fidelity to See of Peter. He then stated that the same voice now seeks to convince them to become Orthodox or join the Patriarchate of Moscow “so as not to be an obstacle.”

http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2016/03/our-fidelity-to-see-of-peter-ukrainian.html
Uh, whom did the Lord call "Satan"?
St. Peter, when he attempted to dissuade Our Lord from going to his passion.  Interesting reference, because the MP tried to dissuade the Ukrainian and Rusyn Greek Catholic Churches from going to their passion and urged cooperation with the Soviets and assimilation with the MP as the way to avoid it.
It was the Soviets who spurned the UGCC, not the reverse. One of Met. Sheptytskyi's final acts was sending a donation by the hand of his succesor Met. Slypyi's to Stalin for the Soviet Army's Red Cross.

The Passion of those fleeing the UGCC and Uzhhorod for assimilation with the MP and Orthodoxy started under the Austrian Hungarians (and their Poles) decades even before Franz Josef herded them into the concentration camps at Thalerhof etc. to dissuade them. The MP joined them in 1917 in their Passion, while the UGCC cooperated with the Vatican and Second Polish Republic as the way to avoid it.

A martyr for Cephas is not a Christian martyr. The MP urged going to their passion for Christ, and not the guy claiming to be His vicar.
So now you are denying the Greek Catholic's persecution by the Soviets?
I'm denying the denial of the persecution of the MP by the Soviets.

If the UGCC etc. wanted to be martyrs for the Vatican instead of Christ, that was their choice.

Deacon Lance said:
This is why people are fleeing the MP for the KP and UGCC.
The Soviets Union did not exist before 1917, when the UGCC/Uzhhorod began fleeing to the MP.

And the Soviet Union hasn't existed since 1992, and yet the MP maintained the majority of the Faithful, even in Western Ukraine.
 

Deacon Lance

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ialmisry said:
Deacon Lance said:
ialmisry said:
Deacon Lance said:
ialmisry said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Earlier today, His Beatitude Sviatoslav Shevchuk, Major Archbishop of Kiev-Halych and leader of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, celebrated a hierarchical Divine Liturgy at the high altar of the Roman basilica of St Mary Major.

...

He spoke of the persecutions which the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church has undergone over the years, and how “the voice of the Evil One” (la voce del maligno) tried 70 years ago to force the Church which he leads to renounce its fidelity to See of Peter. He then stated that the same voice now seeks to convince them to become Orthodox or join the Patriarchate of Moscow “so as not to be an obstacle.”

http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2016/03/our-fidelity-to-see-of-peter-ukrainian.html
Uh, whom did the Lord call "Satan"?
St. Peter, when he attempted to dissuade Our Lord from going to his passion.  Interesting reference, because the MP tried to dissuade the Ukrainian and Rusyn Greek Catholic Churches from going to their passion and urged cooperation with the Soviets and assimilation with the MP as the way to avoid it.
It was the Soviets who spurned the UGCC, not the reverse. One of Met. Sheptytskyi's final acts was sending a donation by the hand of his succesor Met. Slypyi's to Stalin for the Soviet Army's Red Cross.

The Passion of those fleeing the UGCC and Uzhhorod for assimilation with the MP and Orthodoxy started under the Austrian Hungarians (and their Poles) decades even before Franz Josef herded them into the concentration camps at Thalerhof etc. to dissuade them. The MP joined them in 1917 in their Passion, while the UGCC cooperated with the Vatican and Second Polish Republic as the way to avoid it.

A martyr for Cephas is not a Christian martyr. The MP urged going to their passion for Christ, and not the guy claiming to be His vicar.
So now you are denying the Greek Catholic's persecution by the Soviets?
I'm denying the denial of the persecution of the MP by the Soviets.

If the UGCC etc. wanted to be martyrs for the Vatican instead of Christ, that was their choice.
I'm not denying the MP was persecuted by the Soviets, only pointing out under the policy of Sergianism the Soviets eased up and during this time the MP tried to seduce the Greek Catholics by promising them the same if only they would join them.
 

ialmisry

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Deacon Lance said:
I'm not denying the MP was persecuted by the Soviets, only pointing out under the policy of Sergianism the Soviets eased up and during this time the MP tried to seduce the Greek Catholics by promising them the same if only they would join them.
Does condonation count as seduction?

The MP had been calling the wayward to repentance from 1594 onward. Why would the Soviet period be different?
 

Deacon Lance

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Well some Orthodox get it.

APPEAL FOR RECOGNITION OF THE 1946 LVIV ‘SYNOD’ AS A SHAM
http://incommunion.org/2016/03/06/appeal-for-recognition-of-the-1946-lviv-synod-as-a-sham-2/
 

podkarpatska

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I would not recommend walking into most UOCUSA parishes or ACROD parishes and try defending the MP's complicity with the Communists with respect to the Greek Catholics in the post war era. Go for it if you want, but don't let the door hit you on the way out.
 

ialmisry

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Deacon Lance said:
Well some Orthodox get it.

APPEAL FOR RECOGNITION OF THE 1946 LVIV ‘SYNOD’ AS A SHAM
http://incommunion.org/2016/03/06/appeal-for-recognition-of-the-1946-lviv-synod-as-a-sham-2/
Antoine Arjakovsky, Orthodox Christian, Paris
He came to our parish and made the mistake of trying to justify Vatican meddling in Romania to a bunch of Romanians whose parents lived under the heel of the Hungarians. I couldn't talk with him long (it was Mother's day, and had a lunch date with mine), but did get the chance to dispute with him that the UGCC had no business setting up HQ shop in Kiev. I seem to recall another name, Taras Dmytryk, on the list.

Ah. Useful idiots.

did they appeal to recognize the pseudosynod of Brest as a sham in 1995? They want the Synod of L'viv to be undone-the Council of Constantinople under Pope St. Meletios Pegas of Alexandria too?
 

ialmisry

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podkarpatska said:
I would not recommend walking into most UOCUSA parishes or ACROD parishes and try defending the MP's complicity with the Communists with respect to the Greek Catholics in the post war era. Go for it if you want, but don't let the door hit you on the way out.
In UOCUSA parishes I would ask why they are not demanding the restoration of the Polish-Ukrainian border, pushed West by Ukrainian complicity with the Communists, under the Ukrainian Communist Khrushchev.

ACROD I would ask to explain how the Phanar has been so much better for the Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia. And what is the opinion of the average Western Ukrainian on Carpathorussians....
 

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ialmisry said:
Antoine Arjakovsky, Orthodox Christian, Paris
He came to our parish and made the mistake of trying to justify Vatican meddling in Romania to a bunch of Romanians whose parents lived under the heel of the Hungarians. I couldn't talk with him long (it was Mother's day, and had a lunch date with mine), but did get the chance to dispute with him that the UGCC had no business setting up HQ shop in Kiev. I seem to recall another name, Taras Dmytryk, on the list.

Ah. Useful idiots.

did they appeal to recognize the pseudosynod of Brest as a sham in 1995? They want the Synod of L'viv to be undone-the Council of Constantinople under Pope St. Meletios Pegas of Alexandria too?
[/quote]

I personally know one person, the other two or 3 seem to be close friends or relative of people I know. One other, Fr. Heorhij is a well known priest of the UOC. You may not agree with them (however I cannot see a ground for that) but calling them "useful idiots" for showing decency talk more about you, than about them.
 

ialmisry

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mike said:
ialmisry said:
Antoine Arjakovsky, Orthodox Christian, Paris
He came to our parish and made the mistake of trying to justify Vatican meddling in Romania to a bunch of Romanians whose parents lived under the heel of the Hungarians. I couldn't talk with him long (it was Mother's day, and had a lunch date with mine), but did get the chance to dispute with him that the UGCC had no business setting up HQ shop in Kiev. I seem to recall another name, Taras Dmytryk, on the list.

Ah. Useful idiots.

did they appeal to recognize the pseudosynod of Brest as a sham in 1995? They want the Synod of L'viv to be undone-the Council of Constantinople under Pope St. Meletios Pegas of Alexandria too?
I personally know one person, the other two or 3 seem to be close friends or relative of people I know. One other, Fr. Heorhij is a well known priest of the UOC. You may not agree with them (however I cannot see a ground for that) but calling them "useful idiots" for showing decency talk more about you, than about them.
Fools seldom differ, but their agreement does not facts nor wisdom make.

I didn't say a thing about Fr. Heorhij/George, nor about Jim Forest, whom I also know.
 

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ialmisry said:
He was not canonised by the UOC, only by the KP. And he does not look like a bishop here.
 

ialmisry

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NicholasMyra said:
Orest said:
Cyrillic said:
The Lvov Synod is as much a sham as the Synods of Brest and Uzgorod.
That's a good way of putting it and I agree with you 100%.  We have to move on.
By declaring it a sham, yes.
The Vatican first.
APOSTOLIC LETTER
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
JOHN PAUL II
FOR THE FOURTH CENTENARY
OF THE UNION OF BREST
http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_letters/1995/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_19951112_iv-cent-union-brest.html
 

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Today, in the information field the attempts are being made to denigrate the deeds of Lviv Council of 1946, which is often represented as an act of atheistic regime aimed at the elimination of the Greek Catholics in Galicia with the aid of the Orthodox. However, it is impossible to assess the Council’s activity based only on the facts of persecution of the Greek Catholics, without mentioning the sufferings of the Orthodox Church under the Soviet regime, numerous instances of torture of Orthodox clergymen and faithful. One cannot provide an assessment of the Council without mentioning a decade of the suffering of Orthodox population of Ukraine from the Uniate policy, starting with the Union of Brest 1596. In addition, the main reason for the liquidation of the UGCC by the punitive organs of the Soviet Union was the overt cooperation of this religious denomination with the Nazi occupying forces and their henchmen in Western Ukraine.
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/interchurch_relations/62786/
 

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Deacon Lance said:
Well some Orthodox get it.

APPEAL FOR RECOGNITION OF THE 1946 LVIV ‘SYNOD’ AS A SHAM
http://incommunion.org/2016/03/06/appeal-for-recognition-of-the-1946-lviv-synod-as-a-sham-2/
The person behind this noble venture is Antoine Arjakovsky who I believe has a PhD from the Sorbonne in Sociology but dabbles in Church History.
He  has written an essay with goes beyond this appeal for forgiveness which I think is noble.  We need to work towards mutual forgiveness in a sprit of humility and truth.  Notice I added truth.  So I have a problem with the issue of truth at the end of his essay here:
http://www.wheeljournal.com/blog/2016/3/7/4x2con66gc772xu933reyhty19n8ba

The history of the (pseudo-) synod of Lviv/Lvov enables us to understand that if the Ukrainians wanted to heal the wounds of their bloody history, if the heirs of the Church of Kyiv/Kiev, Catholics and Orthodox, would succeed in forgiving one another, the latter for refusing to recognize the existence of a Church of Kyiv-Halych in double communion with Rome and Constantinople until the 16th century, the former for not having understood the vacillations of the Church of Kiev-Moscow regarding the 15th century Council of Florence, then the Church of Kyiv/Kiev would finally be able to come together again and thus reassemble the Roman, Byzantine and Slavic poles of its identity.
In other words we Orthodox have to accept his mythical history of "double communion" existing from 1439 to the 16th century?  Considering that the Metropolitan of Kyiv and Halich was appointed  by and under the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Constantinople, this "double communion" is not true.  Mutual forgiveness involves the Ukrainian Catholics giving up the historical myths. 
 

Iconodule

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Orest said:
In other words we Orthodox have to accept his mythical history of "double communion" existing from 1439 to the 16th century?  Considering that the Metropolitan of Kyiv and Halich was appointed  by and under the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Constantinople, this "double communion" is not true.
Who was the first metropolitan of Kyiv appointed by the EP (after the original line had been moved to Vladimir/ Moscow)?
 

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Iconodule said:
Orest said:
In other words we Orthodox have to accept his mythical history of "double communion" existing from 1439 to the 16th century?  Considering that the Metropolitan of Kyiv and Halich was appointed  by and under the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Constantinople, this "double communion" is not true.
Who was the first metropolitan of Kyiv appointed by the EP (after the original line had been moved to Vladimir/ Moscow)?
The eparchies in what is today Ukraine were under the Metropolitanate of Kyiv.  When the metropolitan himself left the city of Kyiv, the local princes of Lithuania who now ruled the area asked that a new hierarch be created for their area of rule but it didn't happen until 1458. 
In 1453  the new Patriarch  of Constantinople, Gennadios Scholarios denounced the Union of Florence.  His successor, Patriarch Isidore II Xanthopoulos of Constantinople re-established the Metropolitanate of Kyiv and Halich (notice the change in title) in 1458 and appointed a new Orthodox candidate who was Greek and sent to Ukraine. At that time the ruler, a Lithuanian prince was still Orthodox.  From 1458 to the Union of Brest in 1596, the Orthodox Church in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth had its own separate structure from the metropolitan of Moscow.  The Metropolitante  of Kyiv-Halich, with 11 eparchies, was hierarchically subordinated to the Patriarchate of Constantinople.    No “dual communion” The church in Kyiv was Orthodox only. 

 

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Orest said:
Iconodule said:
Orest said:
In other words we Orthodox have to accept his mythical history of "double communion" existing from 1439 to the 16th century?  Considering that the Metropolitan of Kyiv and Halich was appointed  by and under the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Constantinople, this "double communion" is not true.
Who was the first metropolitan of Kyiv appointed by the EP (after the original line had been moved to Vladimir/ Moscow)?
The eparchies in what is today Ukraine were under the Metropolitanate of Kyiv.  When the metropolitan himself left the city of Kyiv, the local princes of Lithuania who now ruled the area asked that a new hierarch be created for their area of rule but it didn't happen until 1458. 
In 1453  the new Patriarch  of Constantinople, Gennadios Scholarios denounced the Union of Florence.  His successor, Patriarch Isidore II Xanthopoulos of Constantinople re-established the Metropolitanate of Kyiv and Halich (notice the change in title) in 1458 and appointed a new Orthodox candidate who was Greek and sent to Ukraine.
But who was that? And where are you getting your information? I can only search stuff online, so you might have access to better sources,  but from what I see, the first Metropolitan of the new line was Gregory II the Bulgarian, who was appointed by the uniate Patriarch Mammas. The line descending from him seems to have been recognized by the Orthodox Patriarchs, though, and vacillated between pro-union and anti-union attitudes until 1596. This to me would seem to support the notion that there was dual communion at certain points.
 

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Iconodule said:
Orest said:
Iconodule said:
Orest said:
In other words we Orthodox have to accept his mythical history of "double communion" existing from 1439 to the 16th century?  Considering that the Metropolitan of Kyiv and Halich was appointed  by and under the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Constantinople, this "double communion" is not true.
Who was the first metropolitan of Kyiv appointed by the EP (after the original line had been moved to Vladimir/ Moscow)?
The eparchies in what is today Ukraine were under the Metropolitanate of Kyiv.  When the metropolitan himself left the city of Kyiv, the local princes of Lithuania who now ruled the area asked that a new hierarch be created for their area of rule but it didn't happen until 1458. 
In 1453  the new Patriarch  of Constantinople, Gennadios Scholarios denounced the Union of Florence.  His successor, Patriarch Isidore II Xanthopoulos of Constantinople re-established the Metropolitanate of Kyiv and Halich (notice the change in title) in 1458 and appointed a new Orthodox candidate who was Greek and sent to Ukraine.
But who was that? And where are you getting your information? I can only search stuff online, so you might have access to better sources,  but from what I see, the first Metropolitan of the new line was Gregory II the Bulgarian, who was appointed by the uniate Patriarch Mammas. The line descending from him seems to have been recognized by the Orthodox Patriarchs, though, and vacillated between pro-union and anti-union attitudes until 1596. This to me would seem to support the notion that there was dual communion at certain points.
You must have got that from a Ukrainian Catholic web site because none of the books on Orthodox Church history saw that.
Metropolitans of Kiev of the X - XVII centuries
http://orthodoxwiki.org/List_of_Metropolitans_of_Kiev
• Metropolitan Gregory II (Bulgarian) 1458-1472 on the list was appointed by Patriarch Isidore II of Constantinople not the Pope.  He was sent directly from Constantinople to the Lithuanian Prince who was Orthodox not Catholic.  An Orthodox ruler would not  accept a Catholic hierarch.  Remember in those days of caesaropapism the rulers had  lots of control.
If you only read online that this site gives a very sketchy outline.

http://sonca.org/the-orthodox-church-in-poland.html?jnae274207=3
Read:
Paul R. Magocsi's A History of Ukraine, University of Toronto Press, 1996 page  153.  Dymti Doroshenko, A Survey of Ukrainian History, p. 141. 
This is what all the books in Russian state as well.
 

Orest

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Just to remind you again, he claimed that the Orthodox in what is today Ukraine and Belarus were in "double communion until the end of the 16th century.
His exact words:
"... existence of a Church of Kyiv-Halych in double communion with Rome and Constantinople until the 16th century, ..." 
Just look at how illogical this is:
1) why did the Poles want to support the Union of Brest if the Orthodox in the area were already in communion with Rome.
2) Why would want a union if there was already double communion?
3) What about all those visitors like Orthodox patriarchs and other clergy visiting to collect money: they would not want to serve with  anyone in "double communion".  Why is there no mention of it in the documentation?
 

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I found this Orthodox website in Russian which confirms that Gregory the Bulgarian was pro-union and was appointed by Mammas: http://www.eparhia-saratov.ru/Content/Books/206/105.html

He was a close associate of Isidore of Kiev. Apparently in 1470 he ended up repudiating the union and was recognized as Metropolitan of Kiev by Patriarch Dionysius of Constantinople.

I think you misinterpret Arjakovsky's words- he doesn't say "double communion until the end of the 16th century," but "..until the 16th century" which means that the double communion would have ended well before the 1596 Union of Brest.

I also think you are assuming that the pro and anti-union factions were sharply divided ecclesiastically across the board. This may have been true in Constantinople but there seems to have been a lot of uncertainty and overlap in Southern Rus'. For example, the other Ruthenian bishops opposed the union but did not break communion with Gregory the Bulgarian.
 

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I don't see any proof that Metr. Gregory was connected with Rome.  He came from Constantinople and was appointed by an Orthodox Patriarch.  The ruling prince was Orthodox himself and would not have supported a Catholic appointment.  Secondly the hierarchs of the other 10 eparchies were Orthodox. 
This is all imaged history about "double communion" which is a term not used until the modern era (by that I mean the last 150 years or so) and starting in Galicia.  It is a re-writing of history trying to claim that Ukraine was part of what they call "the universal church" meaning Rome because of a connection with an early pope of Rome who died in a colony on the Black Sea in the early centers of the undivided church.  POpe Clement I believe.  An anachronism because in those days the Black  sea  was populated of cities that were Greek colonies and had nothing to do with Eastern Slavs.
Today there are such good histories being written in Poland, Russia and Ukraine who do not have an agenda or an ideology to promote.  We need to get beyond the days of writing imaginary histories filled with emotionalism and ideology.
 

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Just checked my D. Doreoshenko, p. 141.  He says that in the Metropolitan of Keiv and Halich was appointed by the Patriarch of Constantinople not Rome.
Smae with Met. Ilarion Ohienko's book.  The Ukrainian Orthodox Church. 
 

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Irene, here is what the official website of the Orthodox (MP) Metropolitan of Kyiv says:

Metropolitan Gregory II of Kiev was a Bulgarian by birth. He arrived in Rus' in 1435 with the rank of archdeacon. In 1444 he moved to Rome, where he lived until 1452. Then he arrived in Constantinople and was appointed abbot of the monastery in honor of St. Demetrius.

The ascent of the Russian Church angered Catholic Rome. In an effort to split the unity of the Russian Metropolia, the former Patriarch of Constantinople, Gregory III (Mamma), expelled for violating the church canons, ordained Gregory as Metropolitan of "Kiev, Lithuania and All Southern Rus'".

In response, at the end of 1459, Metropolitan Jonah convened the Russian bishops in the Moscow Cathedral, who confirmed that "there was a division of the Local Church of Moscow and Kiev, which harms the whole of Orthodoxy." Council members decided to stand "persistently by the Holy Church of Moscow."

However, the hopes of Pope Callistus III to force the Orthodox population of the Kyiv Metropolis to recognize the Florentine union did not materialize. Convinced of the wrongness of this intention, Metropolitan of Kiev Grigory left the union and was recognized (1470) by the Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople Dionysius I.

Metropolitan of Kiev Gregory II departed to the Lord in the beginning of 1474 in Novgorod-Volyn.

Also, I'm not sure where either of you is getting the idea that Casimir IV was Orthodox. Every source I see says he was Catholic.
 

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Iconodule said:
Irene, here is what the official website of the Orthodox (MP) Metropolitan of Kyiv says:

Also, I'm not sure where either of you is getting the idea that Casimir IV was Orthodox. Every source I see says he was Catholic.
I never mentioned Casimir IV?  What does he have to do with anything?    Remember the ruler was Lithuanian.  Ah because the Union of Lublin happened in 1569 and the new Metropolitan of Kviv and Halich was sent from Constantinople in 1458 over 100 years before the Union of Lublin.  The ruler of the area was Lithuanian and Orthodox. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Lublin
These historic lands of Rus' comprise over half of modern Ukraine, and were at that time a substantial portion of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania's territory. 
In the 1230s, the Lithuanian lands were united by Mindaugas, the King of Lithuania, and the first unified Lithuanian state, the Kingdom of Lithuania, was created on 6 July 1253. During the 14th century, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was the largest country in Europe; present-day Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, and parts of Poland and Russia were the territories of the Grand Duchy. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania

This article deals in a very general way with Orthodoxy and the rulers of Lithuania in the period before 1458.
Since you only read materials online:
http://www.lituanus.org/1968/68_3_01Misiunas.html
 

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In 1458 the Grand Duke of Lithuania was Casimir IV, a Catholic.

In any case, I think I've pretty well proven that Gregory the Bulgarian began as a pro-union bishop.
 

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Also, the article you gave at the bottom of your post indicates that the Lithuanian kings were pagans until they finally adopted Catholicism.
 

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Iconodule said:
In 1458 the Grand Duke of Lithuania was Casimir IV, a Catholic.

In any case, I think I've pretty well proven that Gregory the Bulgarian began as a pro-union bishop.
These articles show the role of the Orthodox and influence in Lithuania:
http://www.lituanus.org/1968/68_3_01Misiunas.html
http://www.lituanus.org/1987/87_4_05.htm
The primary sources are of course the various chronicles of the era.
Gregory the Bulgarian might have been pro-union while at the Council of Florence but like the rest of the Greeks in Constantinople changes his mind when he returned.  Like for example Gennadius Scholarius who became the Orthodox Patriarch (1454-56)  of Constantinople after the Union of Florence was rejected in Constantinople. He was followed by patriarch Isidore II.
This is what D. Doroshenko write: A Survey of Ukrainian History.  Page 141 
”…the metropolitan see of Kyiv was revived through the nomination by the Patriarch on Constantinople (1458) of a Greek Bishop to this office. All Ukrainian territories …were subject to the metropolitan of Kyiv, who in his turn, was again dependent on Constantinople.”
Doroshenko writes that Patriarch of Constantinople nominated the new Metropolitan of Kyiv in 1458.
 

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Gregory the Bulgarian did not renounce the Florence union until 1470. He was not appointed by the Orthodox patriarch of Constantinople (Isidore II) in 1458, but rather the fugitive Catholic patriarch Gregory Mammas. So yes, technically, he was appointed by a Patriarch of Constantinople... the one recognized by Rome. His appointment was only later recognized by the Orthodox patriarch in 1470 when he renounced the union. This is confirmed by several Orthodox sources. You can also read St. Macarius of Moscow's history which confirms this.

The fact that Orthodox were influential in Lithuania doesn't mean the rulers were Orthodox. There were also large pagan and Catholic constituencies and they dithered between them until they settled on Catholicism.
 

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Iconodule said:
Also, the article you gave at the bottom of your post indicates that the Lithuanian kings were pagans until they finally adopted Catholicism.
That is true that the local people of Lithuania were pagans in the majority but the noble families became either Orthodox or Catholic and intermarried as indicated in the article.  The  written language of the court was Church Slavonic. 
The second article:
Usually, Lithuanian rulers were made more acceptable to the local inhabitants by the twin expedients of marriage into the native princely family and baptism into the Orthodox faith. 
  http://www.lituanus.org/1987/87_4_05.htm

However, my point is quoting the first article was because either you or someone else said they only read online (which is sad way to read history) so I searched for online materials.    But the first article mentions in great detail the attempts by Lithuanian rulers to establish Orthodox bishops in their realm.  Also it mentions an earlier eparchy of Kyiv that is separate from Moscow after the Metropolitan of Kyiv moved from Kyiv.  That is why some history books talk about a "revival" of the Metropolitanate of Kyiv and Halich. 
 

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As an outside observer who loves everything anout Slavonic Christianity, I just view this whole affair as a huge embarassment to both Orthodoxy and Catholicism.  The RCs persecuted the Orthodox, the Orthodox persecuted the RCs, and behind all of it was essentially, political rivalry between Austria and Russia, where, had unity existed, we probably would never have lost Asia Minor to the Turks.

Actually the very reason for Turkocratia was in-fighting; I believe the process of the collapse of the Eastern Roman Empire began in 451.  Had the Eastern Christians remained united, Islam would have been confined to the deserts of Arabia.  So that's some egg on my face also.

But in the case of this sort of thread, my view is the debate you chaps are having is the kind of debate we should try to avoid. 
 

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Somewhere I can't find now, I have the letters of recommendation for Gregory the Bulgarian as Metropolitan of Kiev from the Vatican's sycophant's the deposed Met. of Kiev Isidore the Apostate and the deposed EP Gregory Mammas. He was ordained in Old Rome.

The Metropolitan of Kiev had not resided in Kiev since 1299. The see was formally translated to Vladimir in 1354, although the Metropolitan in fact had been residing in Moscow since 1325. See Fr. Meyndorf of blessed memory "Byzantium [sic] and the Rise of Russia."
https://books.google.com/books?id=KKZdTvs1ySYC&pg=PA167&dq=1354+%22formally+transferred+the+residence+of+the+metropolitanate+from+Kiev+to+Vladirr1ir.%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwis6_2nuv3LAhUks4MKHUfABEwQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=1354%20%22formally%20transferred%20the%20residence%20of%20the%20metropolitanate%20from%20Kiev%20to%20Vladirr1ir.%22&f=false
 
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