Nutrition and Diet

PeterTheAleut

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Sauron said:
Achronos said:
I think a term to use, instead of weight loss, needs to be fat loss. Because when you excercise you are not exaclty burning weight, rather you are burning fat.

That said, I am not denying that changing one's diet will make dramatic changes to ones health, it does, but to think that excercise doesn't contribute to fat loss is garbage.
No one is saying that exercise does not contribute. However, its effect is minor. The reason is that exercise simply does not expend that much energy. I can cut 500 calories from a day's worth of food a lot easier than you can exercise off 500 calories. Plus, after your big workout, I bet you'll be pretty hungry.

Ever go to the gym? Ever notice that the same people are on the treadmills, stationary bikes, and elliptical machines? Ever notice that a lot of them aren't getting any smaller? Ever wonder why that is?
Because strenuous cardiovascular exercise is not as efficient at burning off fat as high-intensity resistance (weight) training?
 

Achronos

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Sauron said:
Achronos said:
I think a term to use, instead of weight loss, needs to be fat loss. Because when you excercise you are not exaclty burning weight, rather you are burning fat.

That said, I am not denying that changing one's diet will make dramatic changes to ones health, it does, but to think that excercise doesn't contribute to fat loss is garbage.
No one is saying that exercise does not contribute. However, its effect is minor. The reason is that exercise simply does not expend that much energy. I can cut 500 calories from a day's worth of food a lot easier than you can exercise off 500 calories. Plus, after your big workout, I bet you'll be pretty hungry.

Ever go to the gym? Ever notice that the same people are on the treadmills, stationary bikes, and elliptical machines? Ever notice that a lot of them aren't getting any smaller? Ever wonder why that is?
It's called High Intensity Training. Yes hours on a treadmill is futile, you gotta work harder for a longer time and short breaks in between.

I'll get back the rest of your post tomorrow.
 

Marc1152

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Doesn't hard exercise increase you caloric burn rate for many hours after you stop exercising?

it's also true that it is much easier to figure out how many calories you take in than it is to figure out exactly how many you have used while exercising.

The fact remains that people exercise until the cows come home but remain heavy and or get heart disease.. The problem may really be their high carb diet..Just sayin  :)
 

Marc1152

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So we can observe that hard exercise doesnt do all that much in terms of weight loss. We have a nice young woman about 25 years old in our Parish who has started to put on weight. She has been going to the gym for about six months but the scale has not moved at all. She is very frustrated. And the fat stays in the same places on her ( belly and thighs).

I have a friend who was a really tough and disciplined guy, a Vietnam Vet. He has a large protuberance ( big belly). he told me he was doing 1000 sit ups and push ups every day to try to get rid of it. No progress. He joked that he must have the strongest fat in the World now from all the sit ups.

So if exercise doesn't work well and the theory we live by is "calories in calories out", then to short ourselves enough calories to lose weight and keep it off we  have to super short ourselves on what we eat.

Is that really possible for the general public? Aren't people who are already obese telling us that they cant reduce what they eat?  

Plus, we don't even really know to what extreme extent you must short your intake to stay thin? For example, Obesity is far more prevalent the lower on the socioeconomic scale you go. Scarcity of calories still does not determine whether or not you will become Obese.

MONKS BECOME OBESE... They live in strictly controlled settings and still many of them, as they age, get fat.

Why do monks get fat ?  ( Sounds like a good book title)

Because the key is what you eat, not how much you eat or how much you exercise, to a reasonable extent. If you eat a fattening diet, you may get fat even if you short your self on calories and exercise strenuously.  

Weight loss from a calories in calories out based program is often short lived putting you on a roller coaster of loss and gain, which has bad health implications in and of itself.

What you eat is the most important factor. Understanding what is fattening and what really isnt is the key. The establishment  advice ( Food Pyramid. now called the Food Plate) advice is wrong. Low fat diets are harmful. Fat in your diet does not make you fat. Carbs make you fat. Reduce your carbs and dont worry too much about balancing your calories and you will get your insulin under control and thereby how much fat your body holds.

"It's all been a big fat lie"   by Gary Taubes

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/what-if-it-s-all-been-a-big-fat-lie.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
 

PeterTheAleut

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Marc1152 said:
I have a friend who was a really tough and disciplined guy, a Vietnam Vet. He has a large protuberance ( big belly). he told me he was doing 1000 sit ups and push ups every day to try to get rid of it. No progress. He joked that he must have the strongest fat in the World now from all the sit ups.
The problem I see right here is that targeted exercise never burns off fat only in the area targeted.
 

stanley123

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Marc1152 said:
What you eat is the most important factor.
According to recent research, what is most important is the times at which you eat, not what you eat.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2012/05/17/when-you-eat-may-trump-what-you-eat-for-weight-loss/
 

Marc1152

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PeterTheAleut said:
Marc1152 said:
I have a friend who was a really tough and disciplined guy, a Vietnam Vet. He has a large protuberance ( big belly). he told me he was doing 1000 sit ups and push ups every day to try to get rid of it. No progress. He joked that he must have the strongest fat in the World now from all the sit ups.
The problem I see right here is that targeted exercise never burns off fat only in the area targeted.
I understand that too. The scale didn't move at all though. She is upset because of her belly. That's the motivation. People keep asking her if she is pregnant so she joined a Gym.. No weight loss so far after 6 months.. So the question is if it's a good strategy.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Marc1152 said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Marc1152 said:
I have a friend who was a really tough and disciplined guy, a Vietnam Vet. He has a large protuberance ( big belly). he told me he was doing 1000 sit ups and push ups every day to try to get rid of it. No progress. He joked that he must have the strongest fat in the World now from all the sit ups.
The problem I see right here is that targeted exercise never burns off fat only in the area targeted.
I understand that too. The scale didn't move at all though. She is upset because of her belly. That's the motivation. People keep asking her if she is pregnant so she joined a Gym.. No weight loss so far after 6 months.. So the question is if it's a good strategy.
I can see a lot of benefit in regular exercise, both cardiovascular and resistance training, even outside of any weight loss she may or may not experience. I'm therefore never going to knock a gym membership. I just wouldn't want her to be disappointed if exercise alone doesn't result in any significant weight loss.
 

DerekMK

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This sums up my views on food and nutrition, and I'd have to say Pollan has influenced my eating habits more than any other food writer.  Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.

Sauron's posting about intermittent fasting has piqued my curiosity.  I found this link about it.  Has anyone else done anything like this?  As far as I understand it, this is what the a regular Wed / Fri fast actually ought to look like if one is concerned about such matters. 
 

Marc1152

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PeterTheAleut said:
Marc1152 said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Marc1152 said:
I have a friend who was a really tough and disciplined guy, a Vietnam Vet. He has a large protuberance ( big belly). he told me he was doing 1000 sit ups and push ups every day to try to get rid of it. No progress. He joked that he must have the strongest fat in the World now from all the sit ups.
The problem I see right here is that targeted exercise never burns off fat only in the area targeted.
I understand that too. The scale didn't move at all though. She is upset because of her belly. That's the motivation. People keep asking her if she is pregnant so she joined a Gym.. No weight loss so far after 6 months.. So the question is if it's a good strategy.
I can see a lot of benefit in regular exercise, both cardiovascular and resistance training, even outside of any weight loss she may or may not experience. I'm therefore never going to knock a gym membership. I just wouldn't want her to be disappointed if exercise alone doesn't result in any significant weight loss.
I think that's right. Increased strength, flexability and endurance are all good things. it may also reduce stress etc.

I was in something called "The Sergeant's Program" . We met at a park at the crack of doom early and did an hour of running, push ups, jumping jacks etc, the usual PT stuff. The instructor was a former Navy guy. The fun part was that they would yell  manly stuff at you like "YOU CALL THAT A PUSH UP ???..( expletives deleted) . I would also come home with a replenished store of dirty jokes.

They weighed you when you joined. One day he pulled out a scale and decided to weigh the class and compare the results with when you joined.. No one had lost any weight and several guys had gained weight. He flipped out and asked what the hell were we all eating.

When the calories in calories out paradigm doesnt work too well the assumption is that you must be a glutton.  

Btw..The young woman in question is both beautiful and brainy. She is working on her PhD. I am convinced that both her brains and great beauty are directly inherited from her mother........who is a member of this forum..... And may have read this thread... sooo..ummmm
Amen
 

Marc1152

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Νεκτάριος said:
This sums up my views on food and nutrition, and I'd have to say Pollan has influenced my eating habits more than any other food writer.  Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.

Sauron's posting about intermittent fasting has piqued my curiosity.  I found this link about it.  Has anyone else done anything like this?  As far as I understand it, this is what the a regular Wed / Fri fast actually ought to look like if one is concerned about such matters.  
If you read his stuff carefully you will see a big overlap of agreement between him and Taubes and the others.

For example, he says, "Don't eat anything you see advertised". That's a great rule of thumb

He blames carbs for the increase of obesity

He understands that saturated fat does not make you fat nor does it promote hear disease.

He is grossed out by the Beef industry, as we all should be and the lack of quality  in factory raised beef.

Therefore, he recommends a plant based diet, plants as your main dish, locally grown if possible.

However, he has said good things about places like Polyface Farms that produce grass fed beef, chicken and eggs. Factory raised beef is inefficient and environmentally bad which is a big part of his objection. Grass based farms that raise beef are environmentally sound.

He understands that grass fed beef is good for you but doesn't seem to think it is available to a large enough extent, hence the advice to eat plants mainly, avoid sugar and refined carbs and all highly processed food. He wants you to avoid factory raised meat.

Slight differences.. all these people seem to be reaching similar conclusions.  
 

PeterTheAleut

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Marc1152 said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Marc1152 said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Marc1152 said:
I have a friend who was a really tough and disciplined guy, a Vietnam Vet. He has a large protuberance ( big belly). he told me he was doing 1000 sit ups and push ups every day to try to get rid of it. No progress. He joked that he must have the strongest fat in the World now from all the sit ups.
The problem I see right here is that targeted exercise never burns off fat only in the area targeted.
I understand that too. The scale didn't move at all though. She is upset because of her belly. That's the motivation. People keep asking her if she is pregnant so she joined a Gym.. No weight loss so far after 6 months.. So the question is if it's a good strategy.
I can see a lot of benefit in regular exercise, both cardiovascular and resistance training, even outside of any weight loss she may or may not experience. I'm therefore never going to knock a gym membership. I just wouldn't want her to be disappointed if exercise alone doesn't result in any significant weight loss.
I think that's right. Increased strength, flexability and endurance are all good things. it may also reduce stress etc.

I was in something called "The Sergeant's Program" . We met at a park at the crack of doom early and did an hour of running, push ups, jumping jacks etc, the usual PT stuff. The instructor was a former Navy guy. The fun part was that they would yell  manly stuff at you like "YOU CALL THAT A PUSH UP ???..( expletives deleted) . I would also come home with a replenished store of dirty jokes.

They weighed you when you joined. One day he pulled out a scale and decided to weigh the class and compare the results with when you joined.. No one had lost any weight and several guys had gained weight. He flipped out and asked what the hell were we all eating.

When the calories in calories out paradigm doesnt work too well the assumption is that you must be a glutton.
Yeah, I gained something like 15 pounds during my three months in Marine Corps boot camp. Marine Corps PT is probably the most strenuous of any of the branches of the armed forces outside of special forces like the Navy Seals, but they made sure we ate well, if we didn't mind shoveling a large meal down our gullets in 10 minutes or less. I managed to shave about 3 minutes off my 3-mile run time, so the PT worked. :)
 

Achronos

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I need smoeone to clarify something for me. So Marc believes in magic when it comes to nutrition and diet?
 

Asteriktos

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Marc1152 said:
He blames carbs for the increase of obesity
It's been a couple years since I read his stuff, but if memory serves, doesn't he say that pretty much any "traditional" diet is fairly healthy? His message is not so simple as the subtitle of his one book would imply.
 

Marc1152

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Here is a pretty good interview of Gary Taubes where he summarizes these idea's.

One caution, you may want to put a shotgun into the mouth of the interviewer and give her both barrels.. Fair warning
But Taubes is good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFlUpJhKZdU&feature=fvst
 

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Nectarine,

What would you like to know about IFing? Been doing it in some fashion off and on before the interwebz.

 

Achronos

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Anyway let's get back to this. Eating less does create weight loss, yes but you don't want to end up skinnyfat by eating less. You got to lift weight to promote fat loss.

Anybody who promotes a starvation diet is dumb and shouldn't be taken seriously.
 

Asteriktos

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Achronos said:
Anyway let's get back to this. Eating less does create weight loss, yes but you don't want to end up skinnyfat by eating less. You got to lift weight to promote fat loss.

Anybody who promotes a starvation diet is dumb and shouldn't be taken seriously.
All that muscle is going to turn into fat anyway.



(sorry, couldn't resist  ;D )
 

Achronos

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Not if you do heavy weightlifting combined with protein and a calorie deficit. You will retain the most muscle mass while losing the fat.

Unless you made a joke that went over my head.
 

Asteriktos

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It was a joke. Sometimes when people don't want to exercise they'll say "All that muscle will turn to fat once I stop exercising, so why bother?"
 

orthonorm

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Achronos said:
Anyway let's get back to this. Eating less does create weight loss, yes but you don't want to end up skinnyfat by eating less. You got to lift weight to promote fat loss.

Anybody who promotes a starvation diet is dumb and shouldn't be taken seriously.
Nonsense.

Who is suggesting "starvation" other than to point out that indeed your body does respond to caloric deficit?

You can lose weight and maintain lean body mass via moderate activity.

This thread is a testament to the neurotic reasons why people don't lose weight: they get caught up in minutiae appropriate to serious athletes, become overwhelmed and give up.

Eat less. Walk a little. Pick stuff up when you need to.

NBD.

 

ZealousZeal

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Asteriktos said:
It was a joke. Sometimes when people don't want to exercise they'll say "All that muscle will turn to fat once I stop exercising, so why bother?"
It's insane how quickly skeletal muscle will morph into adipose tissue if left alone.  ;)
 

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ZealousZeal said:
Asteriktos said:
It was a joke. Sometimes when people don't want to exercise they'll say "All that muscle will turn to fat once I stop exercising, so why bother?"
It's insane how quickly skeletal muscle will morph into adipose tissue if left alone.  ;)
I carry all my fat where it looks the best:

inside my arteries.

It is very slimming.
 

ZealousZeal

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orthonorm said:
ZealousZeal said:
Asteriktos said:
It was a joke. Sometimes when people don't want to exercise they'll say "All that muscle will turn to fat once I stop exercising, so why bother?"
It's insane how quickly skeletal muscle will morph into adipose tissue if left alone.  ;)
I carry all my fat where it looks the best:

inside my arteries.

It is very slimming.
And lubricating for your circulation! You're doing it right.
 

Achronos

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orthonorm said:
Who is suggesting "starvation" other than to point out that indeed your body does respond to caloric deficit?
I didn't suggest anyone said that, just throwing that out there.

You can lose weight and maintain lean body mass via moderate activity.
If your idea of moderate activity is "walk a little and pick up stuff when you need to", then I don't know what to tell you except you're wrong.


This thread is a testament to the neurotic reasons why people don't lose weight: they get caught up in minutiae appropriate to serious athletes, become overwhelmed and give up.
Am I getting into the minutiae of this? No I'm not.

Anyway the moral of the story here is people eat to much, and need to cut back so there is a reduction in calories. Lifting weights is great at fat loss.
 

PeterTheAleut

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orthonorm said:
This thread is a testament to the neurotic reasons why people don't lose weight: they get caught up in minutiae appropriate to serious athletes, become overwhelmed and give up.
This is a good example of why I don't follow my housemate's advice on strength training. His methods are more appropriate for serious athletes, while I'm merely looking for exercises to strengthen my muscles for the work for which I will use them in my everyday life. I need to set goals that I can reach.
 

Achronos

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PeterTheAleut said:
orthonorm said:
This thread is a testament to the neurotic reasons why people don't lose weight: they get caught up in minutiae appropriate to serious athletes, become overwhelmed and give up.
This is a good example of why I don't follow my housemate's advice on strength training. His methods are more appropriate for serious athletes, while I'm merely looking for exercises to strengthen my muscles for the work for which I will use them in my everyday life. I need to set goals that I can reach.
So strength training?

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ

I'm a big fan of deadlifts.TBH
 

PeterTheAleut

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Achronos said:
PeterTheAleut said:
orthonorm said:
This thread is a testament to the neurotic reasons why people don't lose weight: they get caught up in minutiae appropriate to serious athletes, become overwhelmed and give up.
This is a good example of why I don't follow my housemate's advice on strength training. His methods are more appropriate for serious athletes, while I'm merely looking for exercises to strengthen my muscles for the work for which I will use them in my everyday life. I need to set goals that I can reach.
So strength training?
For one, I don't use free weights.
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
Achronos said:
PeterTheAleut said:
orthonorm said:
This thread is a testament to the neurotic reasons why people don't lose weight: they get caught up in minutiae appropriate to serious athletes, become overwhelmed and give up.
This is a good example of why I don't follow my housemate's advice on strength training. His methods are more appropriate for serious athletes, while I'm merely looking for exercises to strengthen my muscles for the work for which I will use them in my everyday life. I need to set goals that I can reach.
So strength training?
For one, I don't use free weights.
That's just crazy talk.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Asteriktos said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Achronos said:
PeterTheAleut said:
orthonorm said:
This thread is a testament to the neurotic reasons why people don't lose weight: they get caught up in minutiae appropriate to serious athletes, become overwhelmed and give up.
This is a good example of why I don't follow my housemate's advice on strength training. His methods are more appropriate for serious athletes, while I'm merely looking for exercises to strengthen my muscles for the work for which I will use them in my everyday life. I need to set goals that I can reach.
So strength training?
For one, I don't use free weights.
That's just crazy talk.
Why?
 

Asteriktos

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PeterTheAleut said:
Asteriktos said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Achronos said:
PeterTheAleut said:
orthonorm said:
This thread is a testament to the neurotic reasons why people don't lose weight: they get caught up in minutiae appropriate to serious athletes, become overwhelmed and give up.
This is a good example of why I don't follow my housemate's advice on strength training. His methods are more appropriate for serious athletes, while I'm merely looking for exercises to strengthen my muscles for the work for which I will use them in my everyday life. I need to set goals that I can reach.
So strength training?
For one, I don't use free weights.
That's just crazy talk.
Why?
Just another joke. I'm bored tonight. Many weight lifters (or people who populate such forums, or write such books) argue that free weights are superior, and machines are inferior. So from their perspective, saying that you don't use any free weights would be, literally, crazy talk.
 

ZealousZeal

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Weight lifting is not the answer for losing fat. Every time I've wanted to lose a few pounds, I've eaten less*. I'm not saying weight lifting is bad, but I don't do it because <a href="http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ljz3njXFZB1qfmvnso1_400.jpg">I'd rather not look like this.</a>

*Which is not to say that I embarked on an exciting new diet of anorexia nervosa. But, if my body burns 1400 calories a day, and then I run a few miles and burn 200 calories, then turn around and eat 1600 calories (or worse, 1600+), I'm not going to see net loss.

All this exercise discussion is very well and good, but at the end of the day you can't change the relationship between calories in vs. calories out.

 

Asteriktos

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ZealousZeal said:
I'm not saying weight lifting is bad, but I don't do it because <a href="http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ljz3njXFZB1qfmvnso1_400.jpg">I'd rather not look like this.</a>
:D  Last year I was watching the Mr. Olympia webcast and took a few screen shots of the female bodybuilders, and posted it in the unofficial oc.net chat. I'm pretty sure some of them still haven't forgiven me...
 

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Asteriktos said:
ZealousZeal said:
I'm not saying weight lifting is bad, but I don't do it because <a href="http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ljz3njXFZB1qfmvnso1_400.jpg">I'd rather not look like this.</a>
:D  Last year I was watching the Mr. Olympia webcast and took a few screen shots of the female bodybuilders, and posted it in the unofficial oc.net chat. I'm pretty sure some of them still haven't forgiven me...
I've suffered the loss of use of certain parts of my anatomy ever since.
 

Achronos

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ZealousZeal said:
Weight lifting is not the answer for losing fat. Every time I've wanted to lose a few pounds, I've eaten less*. I'm not saying weight lifting is bad, but I don't do it because <a href="http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ljz3njXFZB1qfmvnso1_400.jpg">I'd rather not look like this.</a>

*Which is not to say that I embarked on an exciting new diet of anorexia nervosa. But, if my body burns 1400 calories a day, and then I run a few miles and burn 200 calories, then turn around and eat 1600 calories (or worse, 1600+), I'm not going to see net loss.

All this exercise discussion is very well and good, but at the end of the day you can't change the relationship between calories in vs. calories out.
No amount of excercising will cover up a poor diet.
 

ZealousZeal

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Achronos said:
ZealousZeal said:
Weight lifting is not the answer for losing fat. Every time I've wanted to lose a few pounds, I've eaten less*. I'm not saying weight lifting is bad, but I don't do it because <a href="http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ljz3njXFZB1qfmvnso1_400.jpg">I'd rather not look like this.</a>

*Which is not to say that I embarked on an exciting new diet of anorexia nervosa. But, if my body burns 1400 calories a day, and then I run a few miles and burn 200 calories, then turn around and eat 1600 calories (or worse, 1600+), I'm not going to see net loss.

All this exercise discussion is very well and good, but at the end of the day you can't change the relationship between calories in vs. calories out.
No amount of excercising will cover up a poor diet.
Precisely. I believe it was orthonorm who said somewhere upthread that you can't outrun a cheeseburger.
 

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ZealousZeal said:
Achronos said:
ZealousZeal said:
Weight lifting is not the answer for losing fat. Every time I've wanted to lose a few pounds, I've eaten less*. I'm not saying weight lifting is bad, but I don't do it because <a href="http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ljz3njXFZB1qfmvnso1_400.jpg">I'd rather not look like this.</a>

*Which is not to say that I embarked on an exciting new diet of anorexia nervosa. But, if my body burns 1400 calories a day, and then I run a few miles and burn 200 calories, then turn around and eat 1600 calories (or worse, 1600+), I'm not going to see net loss.

All this exercise discussion is very well and good, but at the end of the day you can't change the relationship between calories in vs. calories out.
No amount of excercising will cover up a poor diet.
Precisely. I believe it was orthonorm who said somewhere upthread that you can't outrun a cheeseburger.
He must run really slow; no cheeseburger has ever caught me; it's always me that catches them.
 
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