Old vs. New Calendar?

Anastasios

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jckstraw72 said:
IIRC, all monasteries on Mt. Athos but one are Old Calendar, and one is Old Calendarist-schism type.
Keep in mind that people from that "schism-type" post on this forum. You are free to your opinions, but we have a pan-Orthodox thing going on here that includes Eastern Orthodox New Calendar, Eastern Orthodox Old Calendarists, and Non-Chalcedonians. We refrain from labeling as much as possible in the public forum (private sections by subscription differ) in order to facilitate discussion that would break down if we were always labeling the other two groups schismatics or heretics. You could just as easily get your point across by saying 19 are commemorators and 1 is not, or you could even say, "are considered schismatic by the other 19."
 

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orthodoxlurker said:
My point is that the Canons of the Apostoles were known to Nicene Fathers as Tradition handed down to them orally.
Maybe a safe assumption, but can you prove that this is the case?

orthodoxlurker said:
Therefore, Nicene Fathers either:

a) agreed with the decree of Emperor Constantine and Apostolic Canon, with regard to specific heresy of Christians - Ebionites known to be in existence of that period, and stood for separation of that heresy in celebrating Pascha;

or

b) didn't know / disagree with the decree made by Emperor on their behalf as well as Apostolic Canon with regard to the specific heresy of Christians - Ebionites and stood just for astronomical "scientific" accuracy to that extent that they laid down the rules to celebrate Pascha:

b.1) after the first full moon (astronomical, scientific fact)

b.2) after the vernal equinox (astronomical, scientific fact)

b.3) confirmed separation only from scientific calculation of Passover made by Judaists, and not theologically and spiritually.
I'm concerned, though, that you may be giving us limited data and may be setting up an artificial "either/or" dichotomy based on this limited data.  What other factors, if any, did the Nicene Fathers have to consider when they formulated their Paschal rules?

orthodoxlurker said:
The practice of the Church, Balsamon, Blastaris, Milas, as well as a number of other canonist and theologians stand for a). I stand with them.
But were Balsamon, Blastaris, Milas, and the many other canonists you cite infallible?  Can we cross-reference their interpretations of Nicea against the actual Nicene tradition?  Or are we constrained to see these canonists as the authoritative interpreters of this tradition?

orthodoxlurker said:
You stand to b) with your understanding of Archb. Peter's article. However, he treated the text of the canons of Nicea, and not what's believed by Nicene Fathers. Such a stance is fundamentally flawed.
Again, how do you know that what you present here as "that which was believed by the Nicene Fathers" really was the beliefs and doctrines of these Fathers?  Is there any evidence that Balsamon, Blastaris, Milas, and the other canonists represented a tradition preserved in the Church from Nicea to their day, or were they merely presenting their own scholarly interpretations of the Apostolic Canon #7 and the Nicene Formula?  Your continued assertion that these canonists represented an existing consensus tradition is itself a thesis that begs the question.
 

Second Chance

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Dear AlexanderOfBergamo and ytterbiumanalyst,

I have a feeling that we would all agree that one church should not force another to do anything. I, for one, am sold on the ecclesiastical model of Saint Ignatius, the third Patriarch of Antioch--that of a loose world-wide federation of independent and strong local churches.

I have a feeling that we would all agree that the differences in the calendars should not be any kind of obstacle to inter-communion between the local churches.

I hope that we agree not to approve of any attempt to classify as heretical either party and not to encourage any schisms inside any local church.

Finally, I hope that attempts to dialogue on this issue are not construed as efforts to impose one's views on the other.

BTW, I am not familiar of any local schisms by the NC when a local church went OC, are you?
 

orthodoxlurker

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Mickey said:
What do the monks of Mt Athos have to say about the calendar issue?

There are at least two resolutions of Mount Athos, requesting suspenssion of New Calendar until Pan-Orthodox Council (and not a commission, or other unknown body) decides to introduce it and until all Churches apply such a decision.

The resolutions have been ignored for about 80 years.

19 Monasteries are Church calendar, Esphigmenou ceased commemoration of EP.

Vatopedi switched to New Calendar sometime in 1970's I believe.
 

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forgive me Fr. Anastasios, im a fairly new poster around here. for what its worth, im fairly sympathetic of the Old Calendar cause!
 

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orthodoxlurker said:
Mickey said:
What do the monks of Mt Athos have to say about the calendar issue?

Vatopedi switched to New Calendar sometime in 1970's I believe.
Really? I never knew that Vatopedi was new calendar. That's a little strange.
 

Anastasios

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Andrew21091 said:
orthodoxlurker said:
Mickey said:
What do the monks of Mt Athos have to say about the calendar issue?

Vatopedi switched to New Calendar sometime in 1970's I believe.
Really? I never knew that Vatopedi was new calendar. That's a little strange.
They switched back eventually.
 

Anastasios

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jckstraw72 said:
forgive me Fr. Anastasios, im a fairly new poster around here. for what its worth, im fairly sympathetic of the Old Calendar cause!
It's fine. We have a tough job facilitating discussion in "mixed company" so hence some of the rules that seem arbitrary to some. They are the result of years of trial and error.
 

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Fr. Anastasios said:
Andrew21091 said:
orthodoxlurker said:
Mickey said:
What do the monks of Mt Athos have to say about the calendar issue?

Vatopedi switched to New Calendar sometime in 1970's I believe.
Really? I never knew that Vatopedi was new calendar. That's a little strange.
They switched back eventually.
Ah, I see now.
 

Mickey

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Αριστοκλής said:
Title, please. He was the Patriarch of Constantinople, Internet opinions of him notwithstanding.
My apologies.
 

Mickey

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orthodoxlurker said:
Mickey said:
What do the monks of Mt Athos have to say about the calendar issue?

There are at least two resolutions of Mount Athos, requesting suspenssion of New Calendar until Pan-Orthodox Council (and not a commission, or other unknown body) decides to introduce it and until all Churches apply such a decision.

The resolutions have been ignored for about 80 years.

19 Monasteries are Church calendar, Esphigmenou ceased commemoration of EP.

Vatopedi switched to New Calendar sometime in 1970's I believe.
Thank you for this information Orthodoxlurker.  :)
 

Irish Hermit

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CONTEXT NOTE:  The following recurrence of this discussion split off from here:  Old Calendarist Churches ,"World Orthodoxy", and Maximos the Confessor  I did the best I could to make a clear distinction between this discussion and its parent, but there are still a lot of overlapping cross-currents, which may be confusing to some.  Please accept my humble apologies for this.   -PtA


PeterTheAleut said:
Irish Hermit said:
who, though he be an Athonite elder, repeats the error of the calendar, and the hierarchs who use it, as being heretical.
Error or merely a different interpretation of the canons, particularly the Sigillion of 1583?  If belief in the heretical nature of the New Calendar is an error, against what authority is it errant?
The authority of the pleroma of Orthodoxy. 

None of the patriarchies, autocephalies or autonomies has made a statement that the New Calendar is errant.  Quite the contrary.  Within universal Orthodoxy those who keep the New Calendar and those who keep the Old enjoy full intercommunion and preserve the bond of love among themselves.
 

orthodoxlurker

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PeterTheAleut said:
...
Error or merely a different interpretation of the canons, particularly the Sigillion of 1583? 
...
We only need to hear what kind of "canon" is apt to be established by the type of document named Sigillion.

What does Sigillion means, does someone know?
 

Irish Hermit

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PeterTheAleut said:
Irish Hermit said:
[who, though he be an Athonite elder, repeats the error of the calendar, and the hierarchs who use it, as being heretical.
Error or merely a different interpretation of the canons, particularly the Sigillion of 1583? 
Dear Peter,

There is not much need to make any interpretation of the decisions of the Sigillion of 1583.  Its language is straightforward enough.

I don't know if you are in an Old Calendar or New Calendar parish, but the Sigillion is clear that those who do not follow the Old Calendar Menologion are anathema and have to be cast out of the Church.

"7) That whoever does not follow the customs of the Church as the Seven Holy Ecumenical Councils decreed, and Holy Pascha, and the Menologion with which they did well in making it a law that we should follow it, and wishes to follow the newly-invented Paschalion and the New Menologion of the atheist astronomers of the Pope, and opposes all those things and wishes to overthrow and destroy the dogmas and customs of the Church which have been handed down by our fathers, let him suffer anathema and be put out of the Church of Christ and out of the Congregation of the Faithful."

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Sigillion_of_1583
 

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Irish Hermit said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Irish Hermit said:
who, though he be an Athonite elder, repeats the error of the calendar, and the hierarchs who use it, as being heretical.
Error or merely a different interpretation of the canons, particularly the Sigillion of 1583?  If belief in the heretical nature of the New Calendar is an error, against what authority is it errant?
The authority of the pleroma of Orthodoxy. 

None of the patriarchies, autocephalies or autonomies has made a statement that the New Calendar is errant.  Quite the contrary.  Within universal Orthodoxy those who keep the New Calendar and those who keep the Old enjoy full intercommunion and preserve the bond of love among themselves.
Of course!  All those who don't believe the New Calendar to be an error don't believe the New Calendar to be an error.  You've conveniently excluded all those Orthodox who DO believe the New Calendar to be an error.  What does that prove?
 

PeterTheAleut

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Irish Hermit said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Irish Hermit said:
[who, though he be an Athonite elder, repeats the error of the calendar, and the hierarchs who use it, as being heretical.
Error or merely a different interpretation of the canons, particularly the Sigillion of 1583? 
Dear Peter,

There is not much need to make any interpretation of the decisions of the Sigillion of 1583.  Its language is straightforward enough.

I don't know if you are in an Old Calendar or New Calendar parish, but the Sigillion is clear that those who do not follow the Old Calendar Menologion are anathema and have to be cast out of the Church.
Kinda defeats your argument that the New Calendar is not an error, doesn't it. ;)
 

Irish Hermit

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PeterTheAleut said:
Irish Hermit said:
The authority of the pleroma of Orthodoxy. 

None of the patriarchies, autocephalies or autonomies has made a statement that the New Calendar is errant.  Quite the contrary.  Within universal Orthodoxy those who keep the New Calendar and those who keep the Old enjoy full intercommunion and preserve the bond of love among themselves.
Of course!  All those who don't believe the New Calendar to be an error don't believe the New Calendar to be an error.  You've conveniently excluded all those Orthodox who DO believe the New Calendar to be an error.  What does that prove?
You are right.  I know that Archbishop Maelruain of the Celtic Orthodox Church is quite fierce about believing the New Calendar to be an error.  He is more mild than the majority of Old Calendarists though, in that he does not see the New Calendar as a heresy and the New Calendarists are not, in his charitable opinion, bound for damnation unless they repent and adopt the Old Calendar.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Irish Hermit said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Irish Hermit said:
who, though he be an Athonite elder, repeats the error of the calendar, and the hierarchs who use it, as being heretical.
Error or merely a different interpretation of the canons, particularly the Sigillion of 1583?  If belief in the heretical nature of the New Calendar is an error, against what authority is it errant?
The authority of the pleroma of Orthodoxy.
As you define it...  Again, a vague concept at the mercy of a very subjective perception...
 
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