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Old vs. New Calendar?

Arachne

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I'm happy that my parish (which was the only one in town when I moved here) is on the RJ calendar. After 35 years in Greece, which meant a symbiotic relationship between civic and church calendar (both RJ, of course), it would have been extremely jarring to go back to the Julian. The run-up to Christmas feels antisocial enough as it is. :-\
 

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Do you realize how unworthy was the Patriarch of Constantinople who first imposed new calendar. He grabbed power and became patriarch of Constantinople, Alexandria and archbishop of Athens, and he was stopped from becoming the patriarch of Jerusalem. There is something WRONG with that guy, too much smoke around him, there was fire there. He worked for the enemies of the Orthodox Church. It created schism and ecumenism which damages the purity of Orthodox faith.
 

Second Chance

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Pravoslavac said:
Do you realize how unworthy was the Patriarch of Constantinople who first imposed new calendar. He grabbed power and became patriarch of Constantinople, Alexandria and archbishop of Athens, and he was stopped from becoming the patriarch of Jerusalem. There is something WRONG with that guy, too much smoke around him, there was fire there. He worked for the enemies of the Orthodox Church. It created schism and ecumenism which damages the purity of Orthodox faith.
This says nothing about the substance of the argument. The Revised Julian Calendar was developed by the great Serbian scientist Milutin Milanković, an astronomical delegate to the 1923 synod representing the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
Pravoslavac said:
Do you realize how unworthy was the Patriarch of Constantinople who first imposed new calendar. He grabbed power and became patriarch of Constantinople, Alexandria and archbishop of Athens, and he was stopped from becoming the patriarch of Jerusalem. There is something WRONG with that guy, too much smoke around him, there was fire there. He worked for the enemies of the Orthodox Church. It created schism and ecumenism which damages the purity of Orthodox faith.
This says nothing about the substance of the argument. The Revised Julian Calendar was developed by the great Serbian scientist Milutin Milanković, an astronomical delegate to the 1923 synod representing the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes.
And there are many Orthodox jurisdictions in the world that adopted the Revised Julian Calendar apart from any work of coercion, or corruption, or whatever you want to call it from Patriarch Meletios or Constantinople.
 

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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
Pravoslavac said:
Do you realize how unworthy was the Patriarch of Constantinople who first imposed new calendar. He grabbed power and became patriarch of Constantinople, Alexandria and archbishop of Athens, and he was stopped from becoming the patriarch of Jerusalem. There is something WRONG with that guy, too much smoke around him, there was fire there. He worked for the enemies of the Orthodox Church. It created schism and ecumenism which damages the purity of Orthodox faith.
This says nothing about the substance of the argument. The Revised Julian Calendar was developed by the great Serbian scientist Milutin Milanković, an astronomical delegate to the 1923 synod representing the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes.
I know, but the Church wasn't ready for it, nor there was consensus, and it was imposed by a guy who was sitting on three thrones, what sorcery he used to do that?
 

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Pravoslavac said:
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
Pravoslavac said:
Do you realize how unworthy was the Patriarch of Constantinople who first imposed new calendar. He grabbed power and became patriarch of Constantinople, Alexandria and archbishop of Athens, and he was stopped from becoming the patriarch of Jerusalem. There is something WRONG with that guy, too much smoke around him, there was fire there. He worked for the enemies of the Orthodox Church. It created schism and ecumenism which damages the purity of Orthodox faith.
This says nothing about the substance of the argument. The Revised Julian Calendar was developed by the great Serbian scientist Milutin Milanković, an astronomical delegate to the 1923 synod representing the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes.
I know, but the Church wasn't ready for it, nor there was consensus, and it was imposed by a guy who was sitting on three thrones, what sorcery he used to do that?
Patriarch Meletios wasn't the only person responsible for the adoption of the Revised Julian Calendar. To my knowledge, the Russian Orthodox Metropolia in North America, now known as the OCA, adopted the Revised Julian Calendar of their own free will without any pressure from an outside body.
 

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minasoliman said:
I must say that hearing the Finnish Orthodox, an EO Church, celebrate Easter on the Gregorian is interesting and rare to my ears.  Are there other EO jurisdictions that do the same?
I don't think so--not right now anyway--though apparently some in Estonia did celebrate western Easter until recently...

ag_vn said:
Asteriktos said:
Is it true that, in addition to Finland, the Church in Estonia (under the Pat. of Constantinople?) also celebrates western easter?
It was true until this year. Before that they had both parishes entirely on the Gregorian Calendar and at the same some parishes, which for "pastoral reasons" were entirely on the Julian Calendar, so they actually celebrated Pascha on different dates. In June 2011 they decided that they would celebrate Pascha and moveable feasts on one date according to the Julian Calendar.

http://www.orthodoxa.org/FR/estonie/presse/presse%20calendrier.htm
EDIT--Google Translate does a decent enough job with this one...
 

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TheMathematician said:
Pascha should be the Sunday following the first full(or is it new?) moon following 21 MAR.
Julian Easter is already the first Sunday after the first ecclesiastical full moon that falls
on or after March 21 Julian.  The problem is that the ecclesiastical full moon is some 4 days later
than the visible full moon one can see in the sky, and Julian 21 March is some 13 days later than
the equinox.
 

Second Chance

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Mockingbird said:
TheMathematician said:
Pascha should be the Sunday following the first full(or is it new?) moon following 21 MAR.
Julian Easter is already the first Sunday after the first ecclesiastical full moon that falls
on or after March 21 Julian.  The problem is that the ecclesiastical full moon is some 4 days later
than the visible full moon one can see in the sky, and Julian 21 March is some 13 days later than
the equinox.
It is quite ironic indeed that a church that prides itself in its adherence to the Ecumenical Councils fails so miserably in implementing the decision of the First Ecumenical Council.
 

podkarpatska

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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
Mockingbird said:
TheMathematician said:
Pascha should be the Sunday following the first full(or is it new?) moon following 21 MAR.
Julian Easter is already the first Sunday after the first ecclesiastical full moon that falls
on or after March 21 Julian.  The problem is that the ecclesiastical full moon is some 4 days later
than the visible full moon one can see in the sky, and Julian 21 March is some 13 days later than
the equinox.
It is quite ironic indeed that a church that prides itself in its adherence to the Ecumenical Councils fails so miserably in implementing the decision of the First Ecumenical Council.
The 'ecclesiastical full moon'...that concept is one ripe for a lot of heated debate if we are truly honest about the calendar...especially for those who cling to the argument that the Julian was 'God's calendar' as it was sort of in use at the time of Christ - but not in Palestine apparently.  I shall be posting a reflection on my recent experience on the so-called New Calendar later today.
 

podkarpatska

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As long time followers of this forum know by now, I am a cradle Orthodox, in my sixties and from a family of parish priests. On Tuesday of this week, my wife and I returned from my son's new home in Georgia where he has been assigned by his Bishop to serve as pastor of a small, but growing parish north of Atlanta, Georgia. All mission parishes in our jurisdiction are required to be on the RJC (i.e. the 'New' Calendar) and our home parish in upstate New York is most decidedly 'Old Calendar'. So, for the first time in our family's life, a 'real' New Calendar Christmas was to be observed.

I should note that I've 'celebrated' Christmas on the 25th in some way or another most of my life. When I was a child, my parents and my godparents would come home to New Jersey to my grandparents' home for a family gathering on the 25th of December. We were all Old Calendar and both my dad and my Godfather - married to my mom's sister - were Orthodox priests and back then - there was only one calendar for the Slavic Orthodox. So the 25th was Baba's big day - a meal for the whole family - about forty of us - and yes, most of us said a prayer, winked and broke the fast - and cousins shared Santa's bounty an. Good times and loving memories forged the feast. But - what kept this Rockwellian image from really being Christmas was that we lacked the participation of our families in the cycle of services which define the Nativity for Orthodox Christians. (It was only 'Christmas' dinner - not the Holy Night/Svatyj Vecer meal.) We sing a few secular carols and a few church carols beloved to many of the Slavs but that was it. 'Little Christmas' would end and back home we would go to prepare for the ' Big Christmas' at home. Pop would visit the homebound, those in nursing homes, hear confessions for what seemed endless hours, he would labor over the typewriter preparing 'stencils' to run off on the mimeograph for the Church Christmas bulletin and of course, the seemingly endless cycle of services would began in earnest.

Meanwhile, back at the house, my mom would spend days baking traditional Christmas pastry and cookies, as the 5th and 6th of January arrived the smells of the Holy Supper foods would dominate - some were wonderful - others not so much! But it was hustle and bustle and of course the wrapping of presents behind closed doors.  It often seemed as if every family in the parish got something and in turn the doorbell never stopped ringing it seemed with friends bringing little, and not so little, thank you's for my parents with the booming greeting of 'Christos Razdajetsja.'

As the 7th neared, the Holy Supper was set and served, the evening was followed by Church and caroling...in the morning - no presents until AFTER Liturgy - which seemed like eternity to the minds of all of the children in the family. (That still seems the same!)
We gathered again at the table after Liturgy and gave thanks as Pop lead us in prayer and blessed the food. Friends would come over in the evening and extend their greetings and in the morning - all over again for what seemed days - we repeated the liturgy and in the evening Vespers soon followed. At some of the parishes my dad served, it was the custom for the choir and parishioners to come to the rectory for light snacks, carols and libations following liturgy as well. In others, the doorbell and phone rang continuously with greetings and well-wishers – Christ is Born Christos Razdajetsja!

After we were married, my wife and I would bundle the children into the car, drive through the crazy upstate weather to Buffalo and join her family in the celebration. But about twenty years ago my wife's parents' parish 'voted' to change the calendar in what was a controversial meeting. It was hardly a glorious occasion the first year we visited there on the 25th, the in-laws were not happy with the change, nor was a majority of the congregation. Some waiting until the 7th and attended at the local Ukrainian or Serbian church, others were simply AWOL.  As the years passed, things improved, but our contact with the New Calendar was limited to a brief in and out stopover for a day.

This year, as I said my youngest son was ordained to the priesthood and sent by our Bishop to a new parish in the South. We planned out trip for a few weeks and in the days leading up to our departure on the 21st of December we were busy on two calendars – preparing for our home parish’s St. Nicholas celebration and breakfast (we served over 240) and baking and preparing traditional Christmas foods and goodies for our trip.  For the first time in my life our house was decorated by St. Nicholas Day and the kitchen smelled as I remembered over the generations with the time honored aroma of various foods and baked goods.

We packed our little car to the gills as they say and off we went, arriving in the Atlanta area the next morning after a long, misty and foggy ride down the spine of the Appalachian Mountains from central New York to north Georgia. When we arrived, the rectory was resplendent in Christmas lights with a beautiful tree. My son had ‘claimed’ many of his grandparents Christmas items which were displayed around the house as they had always been at home in my memory.

The kitchen smelled of baked prosphora and other items and my son was busy working on the service booklets and bulletin for the Nativity. Just like I always remembered with my dad and brother, I thought as we unpacked and settled in.
The next day was the eve of the nativity and the cycle of services took place. In the evening, instead of a family Holy Supper there was a communal one with all of the traditional foods brought in ‘pot luck’ style by cradle and convert families alike. It was beautiful. The Complines of Christmas followed and I was honored to cantor the service with my son. At the end the Church was darkened and we all sang traditional kolady/carols as has been the case with my people since – well forever in memory at least
.
The next morning was Christmas and off to Church for liturgy. The choir sang familiar responses and melodies. Afterwards, all were invited to the parish house for refreshments and fellowship.

In the afternoon, when the dust had settled we finally opened gifts and we all fell asleep – exhausted as those who grew up in priestly families can well relate! The cycle of services was repeated on the next three days through Sunday the 28th.  My son was asked to come to an ailing parishioner’s home to distribute communion and he asked me along – as my father did when I was a boy long ago. We chatted, sang a few songs, ate some cake with the wife of the ailing man and went on our way.  With hearts both filled with joy and heavy at the thought of departing my wife and I  headed north to New York.
As I write this, it is January 2nd. My kitchen smells of the traditional preparations, we have a choir concert at our church tonight with other Orthodox choirs and the cycle of anticipation, excitement and exhaustion begins anew. The rest of my family, including my sixteen month old grandson will soon arrive and it will be Christmas again.

So…I never really ‘got it’ when people would say the ‘date is unimportant’.

Somehow I thought separating the great day from the commercialism of the secular made our way ‘better.’ Well, on the long drive home, we had time to reflect upon these things and we realized that Christmas was not really just a date – it is far more than that and our New Calendar Christmas with our fellow Orthodox Christians in that little parish far away – and I am sure in my neighboring OCA, GOA and other ‘new calendar’ parishes here in town was in fact Christmas. And I suspect, it had much more of what Christmas really is all about in the hearts and souls of those present than among some of us who are so wedded to a date that we can not see the forest for the trees.

Christ is Born!  Glorify Him!
 

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Hello,
after lurking here for some months, I found the previous post of podkarpatska so beautiful I just wanted to say thanks :)
Even when I'm not personally affected by this "different calendars stuff" it was refreshing to read and made me smile.

I came across this link about the subject which might be of interest to those who hadn't yet seen it:
http://myocn.net/calendar-question/
The Church uses the best science that it has available, and that science gives us a more accurate calendar to use as basis for our own Church feasts.  And what about those Orthodox churches using the old Julian calendar? Whatever they decide is fine with me.  I would not presume to correct my friend when visiting his home, and if he has no objection to the clock on his wall running a bit slow, then it is no business of mine.  As we walk side by side throughout the world, there are more important challenges that we both have to face together than clocks on the wall, or calendars giving the dates for our feasts.
 

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Jonathan Gress said:
It was the new calendarists who started hurling anathemas.
The anathemas of the 16th century, behind which some (not all) old calendarists seem sometimes to hide from a discussion of the question on the merits, were not "hurled" by "new calendarists."

What is needed is an "indifferent canon" according to which any diocese, or any local church, could adopt the Milankovitch Paschalion, or follow the Finns in adopting the Gregorian paschalion, without breaking communion with the churches who still use the old calendar for some or all purposes. 
 

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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
Mockingbird said:
TheMathematician said:
Pascha should be the Sunday following the first full(or is it new?) moon following 21 MAR.
Julian Easter is already the first Sunday after the first ecclesiastical full moon that falls
on or after March 21 Julian.  The problem is that the ecclesiastical full moon is some 4 days later
than the visible full moon one can see in the sky, and Julian 21 March is some 13 days later than
the equinox.
It is quite ironic indeed that a church that prides itself in its adherence to the Ecumenical Councils fails so miserably in implementing the decision of the First Ecumenical Council.
Your present situation is the worst of all possible worlds.  The Nicene council's decision was for the purposes of achieving greater unity and greater accuracy than was available under the traditional approach, which was to set Easter to the Sunday falling in the week of Unleavened Bread as defined by the nearby Jewish community.  But now you have neither unity nor accuracy.  The sensible Finns are on the Gregorian paschalion, creating an exception to unity.  Everyone else's "full moon" looks like this: 
<img src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lYS5QhzRFik/Uhq0k9sD5CI/AAAAAAAAADQ/V4iGbXmxrAM/s320/moon_20130825_845pm.jpg" alt="" border="0" />
obviating accuracy.
 

Second Chance

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podkarpatska said:
As long time followers of this forum know by now, I am a cradle Orthodox, in my sixties and from a family of parish priests. On Tuesday of this week, my wife and I returned from my son's new home in Georgia where he has been assigned by his Bishop to serve as pastor of a small, but growing parish north of Atlanta, Georgia. All mission parishes in our jurisdiction are required to be on the RJC (i.e. the 'New' Calendar) and our home parish in upstate New York is most decidedly 'Old Calendar'. So, for the first time in our family's life, a 'real' New Calendar Christmas was to be observed.

I should note that I've 'celebrated' Christmas on the 25th in some way or another most of my life. When I was a child, my parents and my godparents would come home to New Jersey to my grandparents' home for a family gathering on the 25th of December. We were all Old Calendar and both my dad and my Godfather - married to my mom's sister - were Orthodox priests and back then - there was only one calendar for the Slavic Orthodox. So the 25th was Baba's big day - a meal for the whole family - about forty of us - and yes, most of us said a prayer, winked and broke the fast - and cousins shared Santa's bounty an. Good times and loving memories forged the feast. But - what kept this Rockwellian image from really being Christmas was that we lacked the participation of our families in the cycle of services which define the Nativity for Orthodox Christians. (It was only 'Christmas' dinner - not the Holy Night/Svatyj Vecer meal.) We sing a few secular carols and a few church carols beloved to many of the Slavs but that was it. 'Little Christmas' would end and back home we would go to prepare for the ' Big Christmas' at home. Pop would visit the homebound, those in nursing homes, hear confessions for what seemed endless hours, he would labor over the typewriter preparing 'stencils' to run off on the mimeograph for the Church Christmas bulletin and of course, the seemingly endless cycle of services would began in earnest.

Meanwhile, back at the house, my mom would spend days baking traditional Christmas pastry and cookies, as the 5th and 6th of January arrived the smells of the Holy Supper foods would dominate - some were wonderful - others not so much! But it was hustle and bustle and of course the wrapping of presents behind closed doors.  It often seemed as if every family in the parish got something and in turn the doorbell never stopped ringing it seemed with friends bringing little, and not so little, thank you's for my parents with the booming greeting of 'Christos Razdajetsja.'

As the 7th neared, the Holy Supper was set and served, the evening was followed by Church and caroling...in the morning - no presents until AFTER Liturgy - which seemed like eternity to the minds of all of the children in the family. (That still seems the same!)
We gathered again at the table after Liturgy and gave thanks as Pop lead us in prayer and blessed the food. Friends would come over in the evening and extend their greetings and in the morning - all over again for what seemed days - we repeated the liturgy and in the evening Vespers soon followed. At some of the parishes my dad served, it was the custom for the choir and parishioners to come to the rectory for light snacks, carols and libations following liturgy as well. In others, the doorbell and phone rang continuously with greetings and well-wishers – Christ is Born Christos Razdajetsja!

After we were married, my wife and I would bundle the children into the car, drive through the crazy upstate weather to Buffalo and join her family in the celebration. But about twenty years ago my wife's parents' parish 'voted' to change the calendar in what was a controversial meeting. It was hardly a glorious occasion the first year we visited there on the 25th, the in-laws were not happy with the change, nor was a majority of the congregation. Some waiting until the 7th and attended at the local Ukrainian or Serbian church, others were simply AWOL.  As the years passed, things improved, but our contact with the New Calendar was limited to a brief in and out stopover for a day.

This year, as I said my youngest son was ordained to the priesthood and sent by our Bishop to a new parish in the South. We planned out trip for a few weeks and in the days leading up to our departure on the 21st of December we were busy on two calendars – preparing for our home parish’s St. Nicholas celebration and breakfast (we served over 240) and baking and preparing traditional Christmas foods and goodies for our trip.  For the first time in my life our house was decorated by St. Nicholas Day and the kitchen smelled as I remembered over the generations with the time honored aroma of various foods and baked goods.

We packed our little car to the gills as they say and off we went, arriving in the Atlanta area the next morning after a long, misty and foggy ride down the spine of the Appalachian Mountains from central New York to north Georgia. When we arrived, the rectory was resplendent in Christmas lights with a beautiful tree. My son had ‘claimed’ many of his grandparents Christmas items which were displayed around the house as they had always been at home in my memory.

The kitchen smelled of baked prosphora and other items and my son was busy working on the service booklets and bulletin for the Nativity. Just like I always remembered with my dad and brother, I thought as we unpacked and settled in.
The next day was the eve of the nativity and the cycle of services took place. In the evening, instead of a family Holy Supper there was a communal one with all of the traditional foods brought in ‘pot luck’ style by cradle and convert families alike. It was beautiful. The Complines of Christmas followed and I was honored to cantor the service with my son. At the end the Church was darkened and we all sang traditional kolady/carols as has been the case with my people since – well forever in memory at least
.
The next morning was Christmas and off to Church for liturgy. The choir sang familiar responses and melodies. Afterwards, all were invited to the parish house for refreshments and fellowship.

In the afternoon, when the dust had settled we finally opened gifts and we all fell asleep – exhausted as those who grew up in priestly families can well relate! The cycle of services was repeated on the next three days through Sunday the 28th.  My son was asked to come to an ailing parishioner’s home to distribute communion and he asked me along – as my father did when I was a boy long ago. We chatted, sang a few songs, ate some cake with the wife of the ailing man and went on our way.  With hearts both filled with joy and heavy at the thought of departing my wife and I  headed north to New York.
As I write this, it is January 2nd. My kitchen smells of the traditional preparations, we have a choir concert at our church tonight with other Orthodox choirs and the cycle of anticipation, excitement and exhaustion begins anew. The rest of my family, including my sixteen month old grandson will soon arrive and it will be Christmas again.

So…I never really ‘got it’ when people would say the ‘date is unimportant’.

Somehow I thought separating the great day from the commercialism of the secular made our way ‘better.’ Well, on the long drive home, we had time to reflect upon these things and we realized that Christmas was not really just a date – it is far more than that and our New Calendar Christmas with our fellow Orthodox Christians in that little parish far away – and I am sure in my neighboring OCA, GOA and other ‘new calendar’ parishes here in town was in fact Christmas. And I suspect, it had much more of what Christmas really is all about in the hearts and souls of those present than among some of us who are so wedded to a date that we can not see the forest for the trees.

Christ is Born!  Glorify Him!
Great post!
 

Second Chance

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Mockingbird said:
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
Mockingbird said:
TheMathematician said:
Pascha should be the Sunday following the first full(or is it new?) moon following 21 MAR.
Julian Easter is already the first Sunday after the first ecclesiastical full moon that falls
on or after March 21 Julian.  The problem is that the ecclesiastical full moon is some 4 days later
than the visible full moon one can see in the sky, and Julian 21 March is some 13 days later than
the equinox.
It is quite ironic indeed that a church that prides itself in its adherence to the Ecumenical Councils fails so miserably in implementing the decision of the First Ecumenical Council.
Your present situation is the worst of all possible worlds.  The Nicene council's decision was for the purposes of achieving greater unity and greater accuracy than was available under the traditional approach, which was to set Easter to the Sunday falling in the week of Unleavened Bread as defined by the nearby Jewish community.  But now you have neither unity nor accuracy.  The sensible Finns are on the Gregorian paschalion, creating an exception to unity.  Everyone else's "full moon" looks like this: 
<img src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lYS5QhzRFik/Uhq0k9sD5CI/AAAAAAAAADQ/V4iGbXmxrAM/s320/moon_20130825_845pm.jpg" alt="" border="0" />
obviating accuracy.
The decision, as relayed in St Constantine the Great's letter was in two parts:

1. We would not celebrate (or calculate) with the Jews. IOW, we would not use the Jewish calculations for Passover.

2. All Christian churches would celebrate Pascha on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox as calculated by the Church of Alexandria (because that city was blessed with the most accurate astrologers). Since the Equinox varies slightly year to year, a later council simplified the calculations by substituting March 21st for the actual date of the Equinox, meaning the actual Equinox either fell on that date or was separated from it by one or two days.
 

Second Chance

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I would like to recommend a wonderful essay by Father Stephen Freeman on the critical role that the Church Calendar should play in our lives. Here is a teaser:

"As we entertain ourselves to death, we become more and more abstracted from both space and time. Wandering in a digital world we have forgotten how to return to ourselves and simply be present to a particular point. Tragically, that particular point is always (and only) the place where we meet God. The calendar is thus something like an “appointment device.” This feast, this day, this time in my life, if I will keep the appointment, I can meet God."

http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2015/01/03/living-calendar/

 

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I like the concept of "sanctification of time" which can be found in the writings of Abraham Joshua Heschel and Dom Gregory Dix.  Even more I like the concept of "sacrament of time" which can be found in the writings of Alexander Schmemann.

This year, 2015, the Julian and Gregorian Easters are a week apart because the Western moon is full on Friday April 3rd Gregorian, while the Eastern Orthodox moon (except in Finland) is not full until Tuesday April 7th Gregorian.  The Sunday following April 3rd is April 5th, that following April 7th is April 12th.  And that is all.  Any explanation in terms of the Rabbinic Jewish calendar is spurious.

Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
The decision, as relayed in St Constantine the Great's letter was in two parts:

1. We would not celebrate (or calculate) with the Jews. IOW, we would not use the Jewish calculations for Passover.

2. All Christian churches would celebrate Pascha on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox as calculated by the Church of Alexandria (because that city was blessed with the most accurate astrologers). Since the Equinox varies slightly year to year, a later council simplified the calculations by substituting March 21st for the actual date of the Equinox, meaning the actual Equinox either fell on that date or was separated from it by one or two days.
I agree with the first, but I would qualify the second as follows: 

a) The Council gave no special privileges to Alexandria.  This myth sprang up in later generations.  What the Council seems to have expected, and what in any case the subsequent history shows actually happening, was that the bishops of the most important cities, in particular Rome and Alexandria, would agree on a date and each make it known within his territory.

b) The variability of the equinox may have been known to the most sophisticated astronomers at the time, but no Christian writer of the pre-Nicene and Nicene generations shows any awareness of it.  The closest anyone comes (and this is still far away) is Anatolius, who defines the equinox as an event lasting over several days.  His intention seemed to be to reconcile the March 21st party with the March 25th party by defining an equinox that could satisfy both.  (Here I follow those scholars who hold that Anatolius's surviving book is genuine, and not a later forgery.)  The Julian calendar date of March 21st was used because it was a good-enough approximation at the time for a lunar calendar in which everything is rounded off to the nearest day.


 

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Irish Hermit said:
To briefly compare the inaccurate Revised Julian Calendar and the Milankovic---
the Revised Julian is late one day every 14,400 years compared to real astronomic
time. Milankovic's calendar is most accurate of all and is late one day every
48,000 years in relation to real astronomic time.
According to the article linked at http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2003POBeo..75..301T,

[quote author=V. Trajkovska]
The new rule introduced by M. Trpkovic is:  the secular years will be leap years if divided by 9 yield a rest of 0 or 4, otherwise a secular year is a simple one.[/quote] 

The English translation is un-idiomatic, but the author means that, in Trpkovic's original proposal, century years would be bissextile when the A.D. number divided by 900 yields a remainder of 0 or 4.  In Milankovic's solar calendar as accepted by the congress, century years are bissextile if the A.D. number divided by 900 gives a remainder of 2 or 6. 

If Trajkovska is correct about Trpkovic's original proposal, then Trpkovic's solar calendar and Milankovic's modification have exactly the same average year length of 365 + (218/900) or 365.24222 days.  They cannot lose time differently with respect to the same standard of reference.  Since Milankovic's solar calendar is identical with the solar part of the Revised Julian Calendar, the RJ solar calendar cannot lose time differently from Milankovic's.

By my back-of-the-envelope computation, the Gregorian calendar of 365.24250 days loses time with respect to the overall average tropical year of 365.24219 days at a rate of 1/.00031 = 1 day in 3226 years.  It loses time with respect to the Spring equinox tropical year of 365.2424 days at a rate of 1/.0001 = 1 day in 10000 years.  The Trpkovic/Milankovic calendar loses time with respect to the overall average tropical year at a rate of 1 day in 33333 years, and gains time with respect to the Spring equinox tropical year at a rate of 1 day in 5000 years.  So the Gregorian is closer to the present value of the Spring equinox tropical year, while the Trpkovic/Milankovic calendar is closer to the present-day value of the overall average tropical year.  Since both averages change over time, it is not self-evident whether one of Gregorian or Trpkovic/Milankovic is inherently better than the other.  Both will need adjustment after a time.

 

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Wow, I have to hand it to you, Mockingbird. You respond to a six-year old post by a member who no longer participates on the forum and your content is more dry, scholarly and boring than a yeshiva student cramming for his finals. Respect.
 

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I remember the most beautiful days of Slobodan Milosevic's reign. We would decorate our cities in 28th of December, we would wait for Roman-Catholic Christmas to be over, and then decorate it, only 3 days before the new year, but we also celebrate old calendar new year, so we make up for it. We really hated Vatican. :D

Now we are EU's little whore, so we decorate cities already in 1st of December.

 

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Pravoslavac said:
I remember the most beautiful days of Slobodan Milosevic's reign. We would decorate our cities in 28th of December, we would wait for Roman-Catholic Christmas to be over, and then decorate it, only 3 days before the new year, but we also celebrate old calendar new year, so we make up for it. We really hated Vatican. :D

Now we are EU's little whore, so we decorate cities already in 1st of December.
Don't cross-post.
 

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Jonathan Gress said:
Wow, I have to hand it to you, Mockingbird.  ... [Y]our content is more dry, scholarly and boring than a yeshiva student cramming for his finals. Respect.
Aww, shucks, you don't have to butter me up!  :)

This link was posted in the Christian News board, but it might be of interest here, too:

http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/roadsfromemmaus/2015/03/31/no-pascha-does-not-have-to-be-after-passover-and-other-orthodox-urban-legends/

The linked article discusses John Zonaras.  My translation of Zonaras's comment on Apostolic canon 7 was posted above in reply #2307:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2233.msg1071066.html#msg1071066

Here it is again, for convenience:

[quote author=John Zonaras]Some say the Spring equinox is the 25th day of March; others, the 25th day of April.  I deem that the canon refers to neither the one nor the other.  For Pascha is often celebrated before the 25th of April; and there are times when it is celebrated before the 25th of March; so that, (if "Spring equinox" were so understood)  Pascha is being celebrated in violation of this canon.  Whence it appears that the wise apostles call something else the "Spring equinox."  So the whole thrust of the canon is this, that Christians should not celebrate Pascha with the Jews, that is, on the same day.  For it is fitting that their feast (which is no feast) is done first; and thus we do our Pascha.  If one consecrated to God does this even once, he is removed from orders.  The synod in Antioch also ordered this, in their first canon, where they stated that this was decreed concerning the feast of Pascha by the synod of Nicea, although no such canon is found in the canons of the Nicene synod.[/quote]

What Zonaras should have written is something like "This canon is void because obsolete.  It presupposes a form of the Jewish calendar that no longer exists."
 

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Here

http://istina.msu.ru/media/publications/articles/adc/dd7/2750847/Kuzenkov_P._Correction_of_the_Easter_Computus.pdf

is a paper by one Pavel Kuzenkov titled "Correction of the Easter Computus:  Heresy or Necessity?  Forteenth Century Byzantine Forerunners of the Gregorian Reform".  It has a useful overview of Nicephoras Gregoras's calendar reform proposals.

I disagree with Kuzenkov's cynical conclusions about Gregoras's motivations and about the usefulness of reform.  But I like how he is not afraid to use the word "Easter" when writing in English.
 
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Mockingbird said:
Here

http://istina.msu.ru/media/publications/articles/adc/dd7/2750847/Kuzenkov_P._Correction_of_the_Easter_Computus.pdf

is a paper by one Pavel Kuzenkov titled "Correction of the Easter Computus:  Heresy or Necessity?  Forteenth Century Byzantine Forerunners of the Gregorian Reform".  It has a useful overview of Nicephoras Gregoras's calendar reform proposals.

I disagree with Kuzenkov's cynical conclusions about Gregoras's motivations and about the usefulness of reform.  But I like how he is not afraid to use the word "Easter" when writing in English.
Why would you like the fact he uses "Easter"?
 

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There's nothing wrong with the word "Easter".
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
hecma925 said:
There's nothing wrong with the word "Easter".
Not according to one out of every one and a third American EO.
Shocking stats, I know.  How much you wanna bet they got there history from Chick tracts?
 

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hecma925 said:
There's nothing wrong with the word "Easter".
I don't see anything wrong with the word "Easter", though most of the world uses a variant of the word "Pascha" for the feast. Personally, I like "Pascha" much better because the name ties our celebration of the Resurrection much more closely to the Hebrew Passover. Just as the Hebrews slaughtered yearling lambs and painted crosses on their doorways with the blood of their Paschal sacrifices, so Jesus was hung on the Cross to be our Paschal sacrifice. Just as the Hebrews passed over from death to life through their Pascha, so Jesus, and we with Him, pass over from death to Life through our Pascha.
 

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Insisting on saying "Pascha" rather than "Easter" strikes me as analogous to insisting that we "write" icons rather than paint them. The point is, when I say "Easter", you know perfectly well what I mean, or if I need to clarify I can say "Orthodox Easter" as opposed to "Western Easter". I think you could even make a good case that "Easter" is a spiritually healthy appropriation and sanctification of a pagan name, just as our calendar is an appropriation and sanctification of originally non-Christian (pagan and Jewish) systems of keeping time.

It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.
 
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Jonathan Gress said:
Insisting on saying "Pascha" rather than "Easter" strikes me as analogous to insisting that we "write" icons rather than paint them. The point is, when I say "Easter", you know perfectly well what I mean, or if I need to clarify I can say "Orthodox Easter" as opposed to "Western Easter". I think you could even make a good case that "Easter" is a spiritually healthy appropriation and sanctification of a pagan name, just as our calendar is an appropriation and sanctification of originally non-Christian (pagan and Jewish) systems of keeping time.

It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.
I disagree, there really is no need for all that, Pascha is the correct word, easter is not.
 

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вєликаго said:
Jonathan Gress said:
Insisting on saying "Pascha" rather than "Easter" strikes me as analogous to insisting that we "write" icons rather than paint them. The point is, when I say "Easter", you know perfectly well what I mean, or if I need to clarify I can say "Orthodox Easter" as opposed to "Western Easter". I think you could even make a good case that "Easter" is a spiritually healthy appropriation and sanctification of a pagan name, just as our calendar is an appropriation and sanctification of originally non-Christian (pagan and Jewish) systems of keeping time.

It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.
I disagree, there really is no need for all that, Pascha is the correct word, easter is not.
Why is "Pascha" the correct word?
 

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вєликаго said:
Jonathan Gress said:
Insisting on saying "Pascha" rather than "Easter" strikes me as analogous to insisting that we "write" icons rather than paint them. The point is, when I say "Easter", you know perfectly well what I mean, or if I need to clarify I can say "Orthodox Easter" as opposed to "Western Easter". I think you could even make a good case that "Easter" is a spiritually healthy appropriation and sanctification of a pagan name, just as our calendar is an appropriation and sanctification of originally non-Christian (pagan and Jewish) systems of keeping time.

It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.
I disagree, there really is no need for all that, Pascha is the correct word, easter is not.
Considering "Easter" has been used by the Germanic-speaking Church since perhaps the late 300s -- which, by the way, is several centuries earlier than the conversion of the Slavs -- I don't think there's basis for criticism.
 

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Jonathan Gress said:
It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").
Interesting, I did not know this.  Thanks!

Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.
In Syriac, the name of the feast of Epiphany can be rendered "Dawn", and is sometimes called the feast of the Dawn.  We assign the name "Pascha" to the Thursday of Holy Week and refer to "Easter" simply as the great feast of "the Resurrection". 
 

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Porter ODoran said:
вєликаго said:
Jonathan Gress said:
Insisting on saying "Pascha" rather than "Easter" strikes me as analogous to insisting that we "write" icons rather than paint them. The point is, when I say "Easter", you know perfectly well what I mean, or if I need to clarify I can say "Orthodox Easter" as opposed to "Western Easter". I think you could even make a good case that "Easter" is a spiritually healthy appropriation and sanctification of a pagan name, just as our calendar is an appropriation and sanctification of originally non-Christian (pagan and Jewish) systems of keeping time.

It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.
I disagree, there really is no need for all that, Pascha is the correct word, easter is not.
Considering "Easter" has been used by the Germanic-speaking Church since perhaps the late 300s -- which, by the way, is several centuries earlier than the conversion of the Slavs -- I don't think there's basis for criticism.
Well, it was the Germanics who fell into heresy eventually. Though then the Slavs become communists, so scratch that argument.
 

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Jonathan Gress said:
It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").
Since the pagans did not observe the feast of the Resurrection, I think this is a poor way to phrase it. Instead, it is a Gothic Christian name for the feast, since Christians chose to refer to the feast by the name of the month it appeared in ...

Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.
Its radical etymology is quite disputed and is probably unknowable. However, before Christian times, the word was evidently a month in the Gothic calendar.
 

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Jonathan Gress said:
Considering "Easter" has been used by the Germanic-speaking Church since perhaps the late 300s -- which, by the way, is several centuries earlier than the conversion of the Slavs -- I don't think there's basis for criticism.
Well, it was the Germanics who fell into heresy eventually. Though then the Slavs become communists, so scratch that argument.
???  Yes, please scratch it by all means.
 

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Porter ODoran said:
Jonathan Gress said:
It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").
Since the pagans did not observe the feast of the Resurrection, I think this is a poor way to phrase it. Instead, it is a Gothic Christian name for the feast, since Christians chose to refer to the feast by the name of the month it appeared in ...

Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.
Its radical etymology is quite disputed and is probably unknowable. However, before Christian times, the word was evidently a month in the Gothic calendar.
And I might add that I don't think this is any "worse" than Greeks choosing to refer to the feast of the Resurrection by (more or less) the name of a related Jewish feast.
 

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Porter ODoran said:
Jonathan Gress said:
It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").
Since the pagans did not observe the feast of the Resurrection, I think this is a poor way to phrase it. Instead, it is a Gothic Christian name for the feast, since Christians chose to refer to the feast by the name of the month it appeared in ...

Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.
Its radical etymology is quite disputed and is probably unknowable. However, before Christian times, the word was evidently a month in the Gothic calendar.
Did the Anglo-Saxons get it from the Goths then?
 
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