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Old vs. New Calendar?

ilyazhito

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That's true, and it seems like the New Calendar and the Gregorian calendar reinvented the wheel. It is unnecessary, IMHO, but I don't know what to do now.Russia, Serbia, Jerusalem, Mount Athos, Poland, and Georgia at least use the Old Calendar, and a number of churches that are officially new calendar, such as Romania, Bulgaria, and Greece have uncanonical Old Calendar counterparts who might be regularized if all switch back to the Old Calendar. Thus, this would be ideal, but I don't know if there is enough impetus tor practically achieve this.
 

Dominika

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ilyazhito said:
That's true, and it seems like the New Calendar and the Gregorian calendar reinvented the wheel. It is unnecessary, IMHO, but I don't know what to do now.Russia, Serbia, Jerusalem, Mount Athos, Poland, and Georgia at least use the Old Calendar, and a number of churches that are officially new calendar, such as Romania, Bulgaria, and Greece have uncanonical Old Calendar counterparts who might be regularized if all switch back to the Old Calendar. Thus, this would be ideal, but I don't know if there is enough impetus tor practically achieve this.
There are some Polish parishes (including one cathedra seat) still using the new calendar; and some of tchem celebrate Nativity (and sometimes also Epiphany) according to the both calendar or just new one (despite celebrating all the rest according to the old calendar) - this strange practice appeared after the official switch to the old calendar 1 year ago.

The problem is that even in Polish the statement was unclear, and then translated into Russian and English probably leaded to misunderstanding the international opinion. Not talking about many abnormalities that took place after this change, and the way it was introduced
 

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Almost entire Łodź-Poznań diocese is new calendar, half of Lublin-Chełm diocese is NC as well, 1/4 of Białystok-Gdańsk diocese is NC as welll.
 

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New calendar created schism in the Church, that is it's fruit.
 

ilyazhito

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How exactly was that wheel broken? I know that the difference between Julian/Gregorian calendars is 13 days, but the Julian calendar is the one still used for astronomical calculations. RE the Old Calendar and Poland, I read the act of the Synod of Bishops of Poland that decreed that the Old Calendar would begin after the Sunday of All Saints, 2014. Thank you for Mike and Dominika for giving the info on the ground.
 

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ilyazhito said:
RE the Old Calendar and Poland, I read the act of the Synod of Bishops of Poland that decreed that the Old Calendar would begin after the Sunday of All Saints, 2014. Thank you for Mike and Dominika for giving the info on the ground.
As I said, even the statement written orignally in Polish was quite strange, so no talking about its translations. And, very often, behind a Church statement there is an important background, not presented in public
 

PeterTheAleut

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ilyazhito said:
How exactly was that wheel broken? I know that the difference between Julian/Gregorian calendars is 13 days, but the Julian calendar is the one still used for astronomical calculations.
Don't conflate the Julian Day Count used for astronomical calculations with the Julian Calendar. They're two totally different entities. In fact, the Julian Day Count and the Julian Calendar are even named after different persons.
 

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Dominika said:
ilyazhito said:
RE the Old Calendar and Poland, I read the act of the Synod of Bishops of Poland that decreed that the Old Calendar would begin after the Sunday of All Saints, 2014. Thank you for Mike and Dominika for giving the info on the ground.
As I said, even the statement written orignally in Polish was quite strange, so no talking about its translations. And, very often, behind a Church statement there is an important background, not presented in public
It ended up that decision changed the situation in like 5 parishes only, out of 230.
 

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mike said:
Dominika said:
ilyazhito said:
RE the Old Calendar and Poland, I read the act of the Synod of Bishops of Poland that decreed that the Old Calendar would begin after the Sunday of All Saints, 2014. Thank you for Mike and Dominika for giving the info on the ground.
As I said, even the statement written orignally in Polish was quite strange, so no talking about its translations. And, very often, behind a Church statement there is an important background, not presented in public
It ended up that decision changed the situation in like 5 parishes only, out of 230.
Yeah, I think 4 exactly (metropolitan cathedra in Warsaw, Wołomin, Bydgoszcz and unfortunately mine in Warsaw too; I don't count the new parish in Warsaw's Ursynów as it didn't exist when the statement was announced).
 

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ilyazhito said:
How exactly was that wheel broken? I know that the difference between Julian/Gregorian calendars is 13 days, but the Julian calendar is the one still used for astronomical calculations.


I have done astronomical computations.  For computations in molecular astrophysics I needed no calendar at all.  But yes, there are some long-distance calendrical calculations in which it is convenient to use the Julian year.  An alternative would be to use the 365-day old-Egyptian year as Claudius Ptolemy did.  This has nothing to do with the question of which calendar better approximates the motions of the luminaries.
 

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Hey Mockingbird, how about 2016 where RC/Protestant Easter falls nearly a month before Passover?  Clearly for most of Church history the concern has been that it falls AFTER the first day of Passover, since Christ rose AFTER 14 Nisan (eve of Passover).  In fact, in the correspondences regarding disputes on the matter, it was to be delayed by a week when in doubt. 
 

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Passover 2016 in the Gregorian calendar is on March 23, 2016.  This date follows the definition of the fathers, who held that Passover was the first full moon after the Spring equinox.

By this definition, the Rabbinic Jewish (April 22, 2016) and Julian (April 26, 2016) computations are simply wrong.  The Jewish computation at least is near a full moon, but from the Gregorian calendar's point of view it is the wrong full moon.  The Julian computation is not even very close to the full moon.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Father H said:
Hey Mockingbird, how about 2016 where RC/Protestant Easter falls nearly a month before Passover?  Clearly for most of Church history the concern has been that it falls AFTER the first day of Passover, since Christ rose AFTER 14 Nisan (eve of Passover).  In fact, in the correspondences regarding disputes on the matter, it was to be delayed by a week when in doubt.
If you read back far enough on this thread, I think you'll find a post I submitted on how the understanding that we must celebrate Pascha only after the Jews celebrate their Passover is a misunderstanding introduced by one of our canonists. The key is that our date for Pascha shall be calculated with no regard whatsoever for when the Jews celebrate Passover. To mandate that the Jewish Passover must always come before our Pascha is to once again tie our Pascha to the Jewish Passover.
 

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Minnesotan said:
FatherGiryus said:
DeniseDenise said:
I thought the full (fool) moon was on the 25th.

Based on threads lately we are having another one
Maybe it's an Old Calendar New Moon...    ;)
Come to think of it, the whole calendar issue is the Earth's fault for not adhering strictly to a strict 1461:4 spin-orbit resonance like a good pious planet should!

Maybe the whole thing could be resolved by using mass drivers to blast the Earth back into a more appropriate orbit. Although that might have unintended consequences....
 

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Father H said:
In fact, in the correspondences regarding disputes on the matter, it was to be delayed by a week when in doubt.
Are you referring to the occasion in 346 when Athanasius proclaimed Easter for March 30 when his own tables put it on March 23?  In this case, Athanasius accepted the later date in order to reach agreement with his brother bishops.  But in 333 and apparently in 349, Athanasius accepted an earlier date to reach agreement. 

In any case, the Alexandrian lunar tables at that time were reasonably accurate.  What people did in the days of good tables is no precedent for using bad tables.
 

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So is that where the stipulation that Pascha must come after Pesach (Jewish Passover) came from?
 

PeterTheAleut

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ilyazhito said:
So is that where the stipulation that Pascha must come after Pesach (Jewish Passover) came from?
More so a misunderstanding that dates back to Zonaras the canonist.
 

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ilyazhito said:
So is that where the stipulation that Pascha must come after Pesach (Jewish Passover) came from?
It would just seem logical.....I mean, how could we celebrate The Risen Christ Before the Passover even happened.? 
Im surprised that the Western Churches havent caught on by now.
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
Father H said:
Hey Mockingbird, how about 2016 where RC/Protestant Easter falls nearly a month before Passover?  Clearly for most of Church history the concern has been that it falls AFTER the first day of Passover, since Christ rose AFTER 14 Nisan (eve of Passover).  In fact, in the correspondences regarding disputes on the matter, it was to be delayed by a week when in doubt.
If you read back far enough on this thread, I think you'll find a post I submitted on how the understanding that we must celebrate Pascha only after the Jews celebrate their Passover is a misunderstanding introduced by one of our canonists. The key is that our date for Pascha shall be calculated with no regard whatsoever for when the Jews celebrate Passover. To mandate that the Jewish Passover must always come before our Pascha is to once again tie our Pascha to the Jewish Passover.
One of PtA's posts in the subject is found at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2233.msg1068235.html#msg1068235

Zonaras's interpretation of Apostolic canon #7, which shows on its face how clueless Zonaras was about the correct interpretation of this canon, can be found at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2233.msg1071066.html#msg1071066
 

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JoeS2 said:
ilyazhito said:
So is that where the stipulation that Pascha must come after Pesach (Jewish Passover) came from?
It would just seem logical.....I mean, how could we celebrate The Risen Christ Before the Passover even happened.? 
Im surprised that the Western Churches havent caught on by now.
Our Jewish neighbors decide when Passover is for themselves.  Christians decide when Passover is for Christians.  The one need have nothing to do with the other, as the facts show:

This year,

the Gregorian Passover is Wednesday, March 23 2016;
the Samaritan Passover is Wednesday, April 20, 2016;
the Rabbinic Passover is Friday, April 22, 2016;
the Julian Passover is Tuesday, April 26, 2016.
 

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This was slightly off topic in the other thread, so I'm going to post it here.

Rohzek said:
The larger point, however, is that holding unity hostage over something as dumb as a severely inaccurate calendar is somehow acceptable across large swathes of Orthodoxy.
Does calendrical accuracy have some kind of significance I don't understand, such that the old calendar is vastly inferior to other inaccurate time-tracking methods we currently have available? Is this like a chemistry experiment where things need to meet a certain accuracy threshold before they are valid, though in this case for spiritual or religious matters? I think the calendar differences are a shame, but I don't really understand these kinds of arguments about them.
 

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Asteriktos said:
This was slightly off topic in the other thread, so I'm going to post it here.

Rohzek said:
The larger point, however, is that holding unity hostage over something as dumb as a severely inaccurate calendar is somehow acceptable across large swathes of Orthodoxy.
Does calendrical accuracy have some kind of significance I don't understand, such that the old calendar is vastly inferior to other inaccurate time-tracking methods we currently have available? Is this like a chemistry experiment where things need to meet a certain accuracy threshold before they are valid, though in this case for spiritual or religious matters? I think the calendar differences are a shame, but I don't really understand these kinds of arguments about them.
Beyond astronomical accuracy? No. The whole reason why it even came up for discussion and the New Julian Calendar was developed in the early 20th century was solely about astronomical accuracy. That's it. It was the Old Calendarists who put forth the proposition that it was a matter of dogma that the Old Julian Calendar was somehow sanctioned by God.

Another point, which is highly dependent upon how one views ecumenism, is that it would be nicer to celebrate a number of holidays closer to our other Christian brethren. If you favor ecumenism, then this idea isn't ridiculous. If you don't, then this idea reveals some sort of shallow materialist and modernist mindset on my part.
 

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Asteriktos said:
Does calendrical accuracy have some kind of significance I don't understand, such that the old calendar is vastly inferior to other inaccurate time-tracking methods we currently have available?
More accurate is, by definition, truer to the facts.  The moon should look reasonably full on the day your lunar tables say it is full.  The Julian tables do not pass this test.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Mockingbird said:
The moon should look reasonably full on the day your lunar tables say it is full.  The Julian tables do not pass this test.
You'd be better off omitting "reasonably". 
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Mockingbird said:
The moon should look reasonably full on the day your lunar tables say it is full.  The Julian tables do not pass this test.
You'd be better off omitting "reasonably".
Unnecessary.  The gibbous moon in the picture does not look "reasonably" full.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Mockingbird said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Mockingbird said:
The moon should look reasonably full on the day your lunar tables say it is full.  The Julian tables do not pass this test.
You'd be better off omitting "reasonably".
Unnecessary.  The gibbous moon in the picture does not look "reasonably" full.
According to you.  My point is that you're giving people wiggle room that you don't intend to give them.
 

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Mockingbird said:
Asteriktos said:
Does calendrical accuracy have some kind of significance I don't understand, such that the old calendar is vastly inferior to other inaccurate time-tracking methods we currently have available?
More accurate is, by definition, truer to the facts.  The moon should look reasonably full on the day your lunar tables say it is full.  The Julian tables do not pass this test.
If it's important for the moon to be really full on the day the tables say it's full, isn't it also important for the moon to be the first full moon after the vernal equinox if your lunar tables say it is? For all the Christians of the Southern Hemisphere, that's the first full moon after the fall equinox, and therefore inaccurate by a full six months.
 

Second Chance

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Regnare said:
Mockingbird said:
Asteriktos said:
Does calendrical accuracy have some kind of significance I don't understand, such that the old calendar is vastly inferior to other inaccurate time-tracking methods we currently have available?
More accurate is, by definition, truer to the facts.  The moon should look reasonably full on the day your lunar tables say it is full.  The Julian tables do not pass this test.
If it's important for the moon to be really full on the day the tables say it's full, isn't it also important for the moon to be the first full moon after the Northern Hemisphere vernal equinox if your lunar tables say it is? For all the Christians of the Southern Hemisphere, that's the first full moon after the fall equinox, and therefore inaccurate by a full six months.
Fixed it for you.
 

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That's a good point; the season itself isn't really a big deal.
Another thing that occurs to me, though, is that it may not be the equinox, given that the church's "spring equinox" is perpetually set at Julian Calendar March 21. The Western churches use Gregorian Calendar March 21 in the same way. If I may quote Wikipedia:
When Julius Caesar established the Julian calendar in 45 BC, he set 25 March as the date of the spring equinox. Because the Julian year (365.25 days) is slightly longer than the tropical year, the calendar "drifted" with respect to the two equinoxes — such that in 300 AD the spring equinox occurred about 21 March. By 1500 AD, it had drifted backwards to 11 March.

This drift induced Pope Gregory XIII to create a modern Gregorian calendar. The Pope wanted to continue to conform with the edicts concerning the date of Easter of the Council of Nicaea of AD 325, which means he wanted to move the vernal equinox to 21 March, which is the day allocated to it in the Easter table of the Julian calendar. However, the leap year intervals in his calendar were not smooth (400 is not an exact multiple of 97). This causes the equinox to oscillate by about 53 hours around its mean position. This in turn raised the possibility that it could fall on 22 March, and thus Easter Day might theoretically commence before the equinox. The astronomers chose the appropriate number of days to omit so that the equinox would swing from 19 to 21 March but never fall on the 22nd (although it can in a handful of years fall early in the morning of that day in the Far East).
In general, I think any attempt to get Easter absolutely astronomically accurate ends up having to bow to ecclesiastical convenience.
 

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Call me naïve, I've never understood how when we celebrate Easter became more important than that we celebrate Easter.
 

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FinnJames said:
Call me naïve, I've never understood how when we celebrate Easter became more important than that we celebrate Easter.
It's not more important, but it IS important.


I think it comes from a few things:
1. The importance of Pascha's date is shown in the Old Testament, it's given by God.
As the New Israel, we're supposed to continu the OT, but in a bit different way - so that's wy we have to celebrate Pascha after the Jews; plus that's derivated from Gospel (the beginning of the most salvatious things started indeed, on Jewish Pascha, but Christ's Resurrection happned not on the first day of Jewish Pascha)

2. That's one of very few thngs from Christ's life, that we know exactly when it happened.

3. Over the centuries local Churches had (and, actually, have) different for various feasts, but one thing they were celebrating together: that's Holy Week and Pascha (even there have been difference in the dates of th Great Lent's beginning). And it's written in the statements of Antioch council in 341.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Regnare said:
That's a good point; the season itself isn't really a big deal.
What season are you talking about?
Carl seems to be making the point that although the seasons are reversed in the Southern Hemisphere, it's more important that Easter falls at the time of year that represented spring to the Fathers of Nicea than that it fall at the actual season of spring in each part of the world.
 

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Dominika said:
1. The importance of Pascha's date is shown in the Old Testament, it's given by God.
As the New Israel, we're supposed to continu the OT, but in a bit different way - so that's wy we have to celebrate Pascha after the Jews; plus that's derivated from Gospel (the beginning of the most salvatious things started indeed, on Jewish Pascha, but Christ's Resurrection happned not on the first day of Jewish Pascha)
The one sure way to perpetuate an error by one of our canonists is to theologize that error.
 

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Regnare said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Regnare said:
That's a good point; the season itself isn't really a big deal.
What season are you talking about?
Carl seems to be making the point that although the seasons are reversed in the Southern Hemisphere, it's more important that Easter falls at the time of year that represented spring to the Fathers of Nicea than that it fall at the actual season of spring in each part of the world.
Ah.  Perhaps I'm more radical than Carl.
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
Dominika said:
1. The importance of Pascha's date is shown in the Old Testament, it's given by God.
As the New Israel, we're supposed to continu the OT, but in a bit different way - so that's wy we have to celebrate Pascha after the Jews; plus that's derivated from Gospel (the beginning of the most salvatious things started indeed, on Jewish Pascha, but Christ's Resurrection happned not on the first day of Jewish Pascha)
The one sure way to perpetuate an error by one of our canonists is to theologize that error.
What do you mean by that?
 

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RaphaCam said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Dominika said:
1. The importance of Pascha's date is shown in the Old Testament, it's given by God.
As the New Israel, we're supposed to continu the OT, but in a bit different way - so that's wy we have to celebrate Pascha after the Jews; plus that's derivated from Gospel (the beginning of the most salvatious things started indeed, on Jewish Pascha, but Christ's Resurrection happned not on the first day of Jewish Pascha)
The one sure way to perpetuate an error by one of our canonists is to theologize that error.
What do you mean by that?
The commonly held belief that Orthodox Pascha must always follow the Jewish Passover is an error that started with St. Nicodemos of the Holy Mountain. What we just saw Dominika do is give a theological reason for that error.
 
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