On churches

[mikeforjesus]

I choose to follow only scripture and to teach that all Christians can be saved. If I am wrong about the possibility that apostolic fathers may have lied or told to teach as they did by apostle John or that they are only applicable for their time and misunderstood then I could be deceptive but I could be right and I am going to reject to outcast other Christians and follow only the bible


but I will support the possibility that both churches have support of the fathers so as not to judge them

The orthodox view the chair of peter as a concept the church uses to describe the unity of the church and the faith of the whole church. That everyone who is with the bishop when he like Peter speaks the true faith is in the church. The orthodox believe each bishop must defend the faith of the church but the catholic think the pope defines the faith. They differ but they both may have apostolic authority given from Christ to them and neither church has serious heresies that exclude her from Christ but only they have authority to administer the sacraments

A schismatic is really supposed to be someone who believes the same as the true church but withdraws by hostile separations. Either church can not be really schismatic if they don’t know for sure they are wrong since the orthodox may think if they accept the papacy they will be accepting a heresy that is against the peace of the church

I recommend this Orthodox book

THE PAPACY; ITS HISTORIC ORIGIN AND PRIMITIVE RELATIONS with the EASTERN CHURCHES by ABBÉ GUETTÉE, D.D.,

 

[mikeforjesus]

I have said elsewhere

it is possible the apostles told them to preach as they did to allow for christians not to judge others for different beliefs and to test people so they may be excused even for teaching as they did but they could not deceive those who heard the truth from the apostles and they may have taught after the apostles died. But ignatius may have taught when St. John was alive that may not have been a problem as the apostles might have taught you need the sacraments at that time because at that time the church was one and the gifts of the Spirit were obvious from the church only but God may have given the gifts to us now. People may doubt irenaeus knew polycarp or even doubt polycarp knew St. John as they who heard that lived in the second century and polycarp was a young man when he supposedly met St. John which he may have but there was no proof of it so there is an excuse. Maybe even in the second century the gifts of the Spirit were widespread from the church so irenaeus may have been right then

 

[mikeforjesus]

It is not clear whether the majority of fathers in the early centuries supported the papacy. It may only exist in 3rd century earliest by some but is not necessarily the view of apostolic fathers it may have been an invention by some like pope Damascus that not all agreed some later may have like Peter chrysologus. I know Orthodox consider him orthodox but it seems with this quote he did not unless we say the Roman pope was holding the faith of Peter at that time because it was orthodox
Not all may have agreed with those in Rome which held they are the only church and Rome may not have always held that but if they did it was an invention not from the apostolic fathers. I think not all agreed with Rome claim which is why we have many saying the church is built on the faith of Peter not on Peter

POPE DAMASUS I
“Likewise it is decreed . . . that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has not been placed at the forefront [of the churches] by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it” (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).

Peter Chrysologus of Ravenna
"We exhort you, honorable brother, to submit yourself in all things to what has been written by the blessed Bishop of Rome, because St. Peter, who lives and presides in his see, gives the true faith to those who seek it. For our part, for the sake of peace and the good of the faith, we cannot judge questions of doctrine without the consent of the Bishop of Rome." [Letter 25:2 to the Priest Eutyches]

I have seen other quotes in early 2nd century but they can refer to every bishop who teaches the truth who is Peter when he is right and holds the faith for the rest of the bishops that must agree to be in the church and rest of the church

https://www.churchfathers.org/origins-of-peter-as-pope

 

[mikeforjesus]

I believe Jesus is the truth we show grow closer to but as we are weak we may believe in having other masters over us. You should submit to people only in the Lord and only take them as guides in the spiritual way when they are following Christ. If you believe them as masters you should submit to them but some of us don’t think they should be full masters in everything but should focus not only on theology but on righteous living
The pope is supposed to teach the truth to the church and everyone has to just accept the tradition as though Jesus revealed it to him. But Jesus said call no one on earth your teacher

But even so in the early church it was not understood by all that the Roman pope is head of the church
Pope Damascus not liking the second ecumenical council decision of Constantinople being regarded second in see set his sea above the rest and thought maybe he had reason to by the words of Jesus
But it was not commonly understoood that way

All the quotes in origin of Peter as pope do not actually justify him as pope but just refer to the faith being typified in Peter and every non apostolic church which wants to oppose a apostolic church built on peter in the sense that the bishop represents him when he confesses the true faith and whoever opposes they believed condemns themself

 

[mikeforjesus]

This is the actual quote of tertullian. Do you think he thinks Jesus gave the keys only to Peter when he was alive not to the bishops. And similar to people who are like him in the spirit but that was when he stopped following that invention that was being spread that peter is the pope

‘But,’ you say ‘the Church has the power of forgiving sins.’ This I acknowledge and adjure more (than you; I) who have the Paraclete Himself in the persons of the new prophets… . I now inquire into your opinion, (to see) from what source you usurp this right to ‘the Church.’ If, because the Lord has said to Peter, ‘Upon this rock will I build My Church,’ ‘to thee have I given the keys of the heavenly kingdom;’ or, ‘Whatsoever thou shall have bound or loosed in earth, shall be bound or loosed in the heavens,’ you therefore presume that the power of binding and loosing has derived to you, that is, to every Church akin to Peter, what sort of man are you, subverting and wholly changing the manifest intention of the Lord, conferring (as that intention did) this (gift) personally upon Peter? ‘On thee,’ He says, ‘will I build My Church; ‘and I will give to thee the keys,’ not to the Church; and, ‘Whatsoever thou shall have loosed or bound,’ not what they shall have loosed or bound. For so withal the result teaches. In (Peter) himself the Church was reared; that is, through (Peter) himself; (Peter) himself essayed the key… . For in accordance with the person of Peter, it is to spiritual men that this power will certainly appertain, either to an apostle or else to a prophet… . and thus from that time forward, every number (of persons) who may have combined together into this faith is accounted ‘a Church’ from the Author and Consecrator (of the Church). And accordingly ‘the Church,’ it is true, will forgive sins: but (it will be) the Church of the Spirit, by means of a spiritual man; not the Church which consists of a number of bishops.

 

[mikeforjesus]

The other option is that Rome did have primacy by Jesus but not supremacy
It would keep the faith perfectly and other churches we’re still part of the church but not of the sea of Rome. All the heresies in other churches would seperate them from the church but in so far as other churches do not give into any serious heresies they would still be a part of the church for peter was just not to be lord but servant. They were free to not believe something that doesn’t seem like you can know is true like immaculate conception. Because others were apostolic they were still part of the one church. However I believe peter was leader out of respect but this did not apply to his successors. He would serve all the Christians of his time. Only someone with special gifts that he shows the world deserves to be a leader who would not lord the sacraments over people who were never reached. The sacraments are commands that are fitting and not to do them may punish one temporary they either don’t regenerate one though Christ may be present in them to let them know they belong to Christ and encourage them but they still would belong and it is to encourage people but they are not the only means of grace maybe they still have grace to make one bear as much fruit not to go to purgatory but they still bear fruit without it

 

[mikeforjesus]

I had another great thing I think to say but I thought it may not be good to at this time

 

[mikeforjesus]

had thoughts to share but maybe later to make it better readable

 

[mikeforjesus]

St. Ambrose ("On the Incarnation")
Faith is the foundation of the Church, for it was not of the person but of the faith of St. Peter that it was said that the gates of hell should not prevail against it;  it is the confession of faith that has vanquished hell.  Jesus Christ is the Rock.  He did not deny the grace of His name when He called him Peter, because he borrowed from the rock the constancy and solidity of hisfaith.  Endeavor then, thyself to be a rock -- thy rock is thy faith, and faith is the foundation of the Church.  If thou art a rock, thou shalt be in the Church, for the Church is built upon the rock


The Lord Jesus goes up only into the Ark of the Church ... This Ship ... preserves safe from harm all those it carries within it. We have a true figure of this in the Old Testament; for, as all whom Noah took with him in the Ark were saved ... so, when the world shall be destroyed by fire, the Church of Peter will keep safe within her everyone she cherishes as her own.
- St. Ambrose

What is the orthodox view of not deserting the chair of peter and was this really the view of all the church from the beginning that the church of Peter is only that which accepts the pope as necessary to be under and that he is infallible or is the church of peter that which keeps the faith of Peter which could include orthodox for when Peter wilfully errs or errs for I don’t believe in his infallibility though he is given grace perhaps to be the first to speak the truth yet when he errs the other disciples can spot it but he is given more grace to speak the truth

If I had believed in churches it could be there is but one church the pope has been given primacy but when he errs the other apostles take over but he is most able to teach the true faith and we should look to what he teaches but sometimes he doesn’t teach the truth and God let’s the other apostles find the truth but sometimes he lets the truth to only be taught by him to respect the pope so there is one church so if orthodox disagree with it then they are in danger but it will never be a truth that is exclusive I don’t know that but I hope that


I believe God is not author of any divisions of Christians but it is man made allowed by God

I won’t join any church because I don’t know what Gods will for me is if I join the Catholic Church I could stumble orthodox if I join the Orthodox Church I could stumble Protestants I see no reason catholics should be upset because they don’t have to be orthodox especially if they think catholicism is or could be right maybe they are drawn to the spirituality of orthodoxy but do they have to believe orthodoxy is the true church or more true to the point of denying Catholics are part of the church the pope having supposed to have the role in being the first to say the true faith though he does not always and God can guide other disciples if he refuses to say the truth he should be the one which most guards orthodoxy as God gave him ability but other disciples can spot out when he contradicts God will show them or just part of it to be received do they have to absolutely not believe the successors of Peter in Rome had any primacy they should be allowed to take part in orthodoxy to be convinced it is also part of the church while still being Catholic in their beliefs they should actually remain catholic but try to teach fellow Catholics to be more spiritual like the orthodox for they can think they are only right but fear orthodox also have the truth therefore I don’t know for sure if any of them is really now God’s will for me
If I am serious about saving souls I can’t play games I supposedly would save my own soul but I would potentially stumble other souls therefore I trust Jesus is the only saviour
It is sad that I still don’t have proof I am Christian I still seek it from God I am told by the church fathers unless I am in the ark I will perish but I don’t think that is true because God wouldn’t judge someone wanting to do the right thing not that I feel very ready yet to meet God the ark is baptism many will perish without it but they will be saved later if they we’re good Christians
Baptism could be a means of receiving the Holy Spirit in the past on some occasions but not always but it was always for continuous removal of guilt of all sins in this life to feel new so it is always needed for salvation but you can still be a good Christian without it having a measure of the Holy Spirit without it but perhaps baptism refers to a death to sin and rising through spiritual water of the Holy Spirit a cleansing happening which may not happen only in the water
The spiritual water is an anti type to the waters of the flood or God works in His sacraments but is not bound by them if he understands a person situation that a loved one followed Jesus but never was taught baptism is more than a profession of faith 
so they don’t want to leave them behind if they thought they are responsible for them not being baptised and they will only be baptised if they are sure they will be saved later
You can’t be responsible for other people sins though only if you misled them in doctrines but even if you did not mislead them a person may pity an unbaptised because they were misled that baptism is just a profession and not absolutely important that is why that person feels compelled not to be baptised but you should be baptised and accept them to be saved later it is my view baptism should not be necessary as long as they love God and are following Him but they will be punished for all their sins first but delivered on the day of judgement by their righteous living but only God knows if it is necessary so you should be baptised incase but you will be held responsible if you are not truly repentant if you are persistent in wanting to do wrong and no good intention and you know what your doing is not good but they are responsible for themselves and you may harm them but I’m not sure but they are responsible for themselvers


The chair of peter has no significance if Peter is not currently exercising the truth
The truth is supposed to be confirmed by the pope but everyone is in the church who agrees with the truth those are more likely to have the truth in the Catholic Church but when they are not orthodox they are in error orthodox have the advantage that they get to accept the Catholic Church beliefs when it is orthodox they have the early church fathers so if they accept previous popes they have the whole truth and are in the church

So God will guide those in the church to the end whether it is catholic or orthodox which will also include catholic
But I believe God guides all believers in the truth and none of the churches have the true faith but God can reveal the truth to any person as it is said flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but My Father who is in heaven

If orthodox are more right does that mean Catholics are charged with heresy no because they have it in ignorance from a schism not their fault if there is a true church the Catholic Church is the true church but the previous pope made a schism through a heresy that the early church believed one needed to be subject to the pope and not his faith but he is not charged with the schism unless knowingly

 

[mikeforjesus]

The church is built on the faith of Peter Rome should say the faith correct first but if it does not the other apostles can say it the Orthodox Church thinks it always says the truth but I don’t believe it does so will the gates of hades prevail against it if it does not know the truth no because I believe the rock is the confession of faith and even if you have imperfect knowledge you can be saved but you would help more be saved if you have perfect knowledge

http://www.saintjonah.org/articles/maximos1.htm

 

[mikeforjesus]

Luke 22:24-28
24 Now there was also a dispute among them, as to which of them should
be considered the greatest. 25 And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those who exercise authority over them are called ‘benefactors.’ 26 But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greatest among you, let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves. 27 For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves.
28 “But you are those who have continued with Me in My trials. 29 And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, 30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial
(Matt. 26:31–35; Mark 14:27–31; John 13:36–38)

Jesus seems to be saying any of the disciples can be considered greatest and such is not by Jesus choice but because they serve the most

If we say peter was not greatest in heaven but on earth he is greatest

But it says only the gentiles exercised lordship to insist people must be under the pope is lordship to force it only under his teaching though if he errs you don’t have to agree with him and anyway in many matters they should not be such you have to believe or you can not be saved or that is lording a teaching over others and it may not make sense for it to be a matter worthy of judgement but if he had a role of service over the disciples I could agree but I believe the bible says call no one on earth your teacher not that there should not be order in the church and teachers but they are not infallible and they would not teach exclusively

 

[mikeforjesus]

The orthodox understand all are in the church who share the faith of Peter

Some may have believed pope had a primacy but not a supremacy the pope may not get it completely right for failing to do his job then the orthodox can point out where they think he is wrong

If people have imperfect knowledge of the truth they can still be saved but I think when it says the gates of hades shall not prevail against the church it means it will teach everything right so people can know how to be saved but it is not only to Peter that God will reveal all that is necessary to be saved for God can reveal it to others also but He will ensure it is in His church also first if they really exercise their gift faithfully which they may choose not to God will desire to make Peter first if He is diligent but if He is not the other apostles can also

As long as you are accepting the pope when he is orthodox you are connected to the chair of Peter that’s how cyprian was still in the church

That is the understanding of cyprian he was between catholic and orthodox

But the orthodox position held by some fathers is that you don’t have to accept the person of the pope because he is the pope and should be first to speak but he should have a primacy of honour to remember St. Peter because he may speak the truth first again whether you believe in his primacy or not if you agree with the faith then you are in the church they may also agree that the chair of Peter is his faith it is better to believe he may say the truth first but you don’t have to

Because it was only until cyprian that we hear of chair of peter other saints like st Anthony and st macarius confess peter was chief of apostles they may have only meant he could speak the truth again first and you have to only accept the faith that is true whether you believe in it or not

But therefore we don’t know if cyprian was catholic or orthodox or the other saints
Not deserting the chair of peter may mean not deserting the faith of the pope and not the pope if he is orthodox or it could mean you have to accept the pope if he is orthodox and as having primacy while orthodox may only accept the pope if he is orthodox but not also have to accept his primacy

But if orthodox believe the right things can Catholics be in the church who slightly believe different things ?

 

[mikeforjesus]

I believe God wants all believers to have a personal relationship with Christ but he can allow them to be in churches to serve in them or if one is not sure it is not true but most important thing is for all to have a personal relationship with Christ

 

[mikeforjesus]

I believe an orthodox can accept a Roman Catholic though if we think they believe in some heresies they do not believe in heresy that we can determine is wrong or that is deadly some church fathers really gave them their views and we can not know what the bible actually teaches though if God guides all without the pope maybe the orthodox are right therefore they don’t commit the sin that leads to death and orthodox also believe in prayer of the dead if you have sin that does not lead to death though not believing in a purgatory but mercy and release for them but they will not go to hades at all if they walk according to the teaching of the church but they can be released from it

 

[Sethrak]

Greetings Mike ~ The Holy Bible is ~ I hope you know is: Some of but not all of: ~ Our Records ~ The Records of the Early Church ~ as close as we remember and have been able to keep them ~ the rest is kept in Church Tradition ~ it is said ~ and I believe that if the Bible ~ parish the thought ~ were thrown out of an airplane and found by a group who made a religion from what they read ~ it would resemble Christianity in no way ~ I believe that ~ you've heard atheists attack Christianity using the clips from our Book ~ using legal language ~ saying this means that Therefore ~ taking advantage or the fact that most Christians don't understand that much of our faith is found in tradition and is teaching of apostles ~ Mike I know you search for the truth and The Christ and truly want to know what he wants of us ~ searching in the Christian Bible is good ~ we've kept it as clean and close as we could it's really very close to what he said and did and the Apostles as well ~ most of the Apostles were killed ~ but we remember what the told us ~ the True Church is Apostolic started by and Apostle ~ what they taught is held in tradition and cannot be found in Our Holy Book ~ we're willing to share that truth with you Mike ~ we remember and follow the teaching ```

God be with you brother ```



seth

 

[mikeforjesus]

I respect your views but I believe the apostles served all believers not like the church fathers the bible talks about a certain person in epistle of john who did not receive the brethren and I think God may have allowed men to create a divisive doctrine and sent them but no one had to receive them for they would have only tested generations after for those in their generation knew the truth so people only follow Christ I am not convinced Christianity should be exclusive but if others find comfort in the concept of the church I won’t attack it but I don't think it will be it may be I have to join another church but allow people to be orthodox if they want. I will go to church to allow it to be convincing though I want others not to take it seriously and allow them to stumble because I don't think it will be convincing

 

[mikeforjesus]

I will go to church if I feel it can convince me that there is no life outside the church but I think there is so others should not stumble by me going to church

 

[mikeforjesus]

the truth is you can never prove the church is wrong God allowed these different churches if people want to join it they can but I will probably serve in other churches if I feel the holy spirit convinces me He accepts me though I can never prove to others. But I will go to both churches im sure the church wont convince me that I need it or that I was wrong to accept other christians

 

[mikeforjesus]

I would like to delete that part of wrong to accept other christians for it is evil to say that. I mean to convince me that it is right that others should have to accept the church. I don't think the church will convince me but I will go and have communion to see if it does

 

[Sethrak]

Go than brother with good speed and health ~ may you find what fills your need ```

 

[mikeforjesus]

Thankyou dear brother

 

[mikeforjesus]

.

 

[mikeforjesus]

Ambrose lived in Milan Italy so was a catholic that is why he says the church of Peter only saves

Peter may have been an important figure and was teacher of sheep which may include apostles but he was not infallible and he wasn’t therefore a master he would just be appointed to be a stone because he was blessed with much faith but it was only to him and not his successors he would just be the first to introduce the Jews and gentiles to God but others were equal partners and the Lord could work through them equally without needing Peter to teach them though he may have been more close to the Lord at the beginning or the Lord have first given him faith to teach them but that does not mean he would always be first to have faith later in the church all apostles had a part and he was not infallible. Jesus said call no one on earth your teacher. He had a necessary part in the body of Christ as all disciples did he would probably teach others and he was chosen to introduce the Jews and gentiles to faith but he was not infallible. He was a rock but it doesn’t mean his successors will be a rock or that others still needed him though he was first to confess the truth

The below shows st Ambrose was probably catholic but it is probably because the tradition had developed as so after the biblical tradition. I’m not sure if the church fathers of the 1st century kept all the biblical tradition maybe it did but maybe it did not support papal supremacy. Or could peter have only been a master in the early church not denoting supremacy but because his faith was orthodox and everyone had to accept his faith not that it would apply to his successors or that they were all representing Peter more than all other disciples who have his faith first who are then peter

St. Ambrose says
For there are as it were two ships which were destined by God, which were to fish in this world, as in the sea, for the salvation of men, as the Lord said to His Apostles: 'Come, and I will make you to be fishers of men' (Matthew 4:19). And of these two ships one is left at the land, idle and empty; the other, laden or filled, is launched upon the deep. For the Synagogue is left idle on the beach; because of its own fault it has lost Christ together with the warnings of the prophets… The Lord Jesus therefore goes up only into the bark of the Church, of which Peter is the appointed Master, the Lord saying to him: Upon this rock I will build my Church. This ship so floats upon the deep of this world, that as it sails across this present time it keeps safe from harm all it carries within it" (Toal, The Sunday Sermons of the Great Fathers).

 

[mikeforjesus]

But observe how Peter does everything with the common consent; nothing imperiously." St. John Chrysostom, Homily III on Acts 1:12

"To all the Apostles after His resurrection He gives equal power and says, 'As the Father sent me, so I send you'." St. Cyprian, "De Unitate"

"For neither did Peter, whom first the Lord chose....when Paul disputed with him afterwards about the circumcision, claim anything to himself insolently, nor arrogantly assume anything, so as to say that he held a primacy, and that he ought to be obeyed by novices and those lately come." St. Cyprian, Epistle 70 concerning the baptism of heretics

"As soon as Peter heard these words,'Whom say ye that I am', remembering his place he exercised this primacy, a primacy of confession, not of honour, a primacy of faith, not of rank." St. Ambrose, "De In Som Sacr." 4:32

"He (referring to Peter) had not the primacy over the disciples, but among the disciples. His primacy among the disciples was the same as that of Stephen among the deacons." St. Augustine--Sermon 10 on Peter and Paul

The word 'rock' has only a demonstrative value - it signifies nothing but the steadfast and firm faith of the apostles." - St. Cyril of Alexandria--"Of the Trinity",4th Book

In the administration of the Church each bishop has the free discretion of his own will, having to account only to the Lord for his actions. None of us may set himself up as bishop of bishops., nor compel his brothers to obey him; every bishop of the Church has full liberty and complete power; as he cannot be judged by another, neither can he judge another (Cyprian’s opening address to the Council of Carthage


through the changes of times and successions, the ordering of bishops and the plan of the Church flow onwards; so that the church is founded upon the bishops and every act of the Church is controlled by these same rulers. Since this then is founded on the divine law, I marvel that some, with daring temerity, have chosen to write to me as if they wrote in the name of the Church. ~Cyprian to the Lapsed, Epistle XXVI


Faith is the foundation of the Church, for it was NOT OF THE PERSON but of the faith of St Peter that is was said that the gates of hell should not prevail against it, it is the confession of faith that has vanquished hell. Jesus Christ is the Rock. He did not deny the grace of His name when he called him Peter, because he borrowed from the rock the constancy and solidity of his faith. Endeavor then thyself to be a rock - thy rock is thy faith and faith is the foundation of the Church. If thou art a rock, thou shall be in the Church, for the Church is build upon the rock" ~St Ambrose, On the Incarnation.

“Rock is the unity of faith, not the person of Peter.” ~St Cyprian, De Catholicae Ecclesiae Unitate, cap. 4-5

All these quotes are true but I don’t find the last one by Cyprian above anywhere


Also I don’t see anywhere the below

“It was proper that Paul should go to see Peter. Why? was Peter superior to him and to the other Apostles? No, but because, of all the Apostles, he was the first to be entrusted by the Lord with the care of the churches. Had he need to be taught, or to receive a commission from Peter? No, but that Peter might know that Paul had received the power which had also been given to himself” St Ambrose The Papacy, by Abbe Guettee, pp. 173-174).

It may have been something similar but I can’t find exact by ambrosiaster who some thought was Ambrose but others thought is not

But I think Ambrose might have believed that because Augustine who he converted did

And he said

“Faith is the foundation of the Church, for it WAS NOT THE PERSON BUT OF THE FAITH OF ST. PETER that it was said that the gates of hell should not prevail against it, it is THE CONFESSION OF FAITH that has vanquished hell. Jesus Christ is the Rock. He did not deny the grace of His name when He called him Peter, because he BORROWED FROM THE ROCK THE CONSTANCY AND SOLIDITY OF HIS FAITH. Endeavor then, thyself to BE A ROCK THY ROCK IS THY FAITH, AND FAITH IS THE FOUNDATION OF THE CHURCH. If thou art a rock, thou shalt be in the Church for the Church is built upon the rock. St Ambrose, On The Incarnation



He may have meant St. Peter is the master only among the apostles in the early church because he was the first to act as bishop to be mouth of apostles to teach the faith to others he spoke to the jews and gentiles for the apostles he resembled the ones who have the correct faith

“The Church is built upon THE ONE WHOM PETER CONFESSED when he said, ‘You are the Christ , the Son of the Living God’. That is how Peter came to be called the rock, and he REPRESENTED THE PERSON OF THE CHURCH WHO IS BUILT UPON THIS ROCK AND WHO HAS RECEIVED THE KEYS OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. Indeed, Christ did NOT say to Peter, ‘You are rock (petra)” but ‘You are Peter (Petrus). For THE ROCK (PETRA) WAS CHRIST whom he CONFESSED, as does THE WHOLE CHURCH, and he Simon, received the name of Peter” St Augustine, Retractationes I, XXI,

I hope that quote of Augustine is true

“Christ is the ROCk who granted to His Apostles that they should be called rock. God has founded His Church on this rock, and it is from this Rock [Christ] that Peter has been named” ‚ St. Jerome


“I believe that by the rock you must understand THE UNSHAKEN FAITH OF THE APOSTLES”. St Hilary of Poitiers, 2nd Book On The Trinity


“For whoever is united to Christ BECOMES PETER” Origen, Commentaria in Evengelium Secundum Matthaeum, PG 13, 997-1004

Not sure if it is quoted exactly that way  just as I couldn’t find exactly Cyprus’s one

I got from somewhere


When do the more obtuse statements begin to come? When Rome already begins overstepping her bounds, and the West begins to claim altogether too much, more than is her due. We see this with Pope St. Victor, who you quoted, Vic. We see this with St. Peter Chrysologus, who was Bishop or Ravenna in the West. We see this with St. Fulgentius, Bishop of Ruspe.

So catholicism did still exist but not from the beginning necessarily but I am still going to be confirmed in their church and have communion to be sure

If that means Rome is in error still I believe it is saved if it does not hold serious heresies which I don’t believe it does for it still holds to the early church fathers but the purpose of knowing the true faith is for orthodox not to be condemned and to show the true faith which may attract others but Rome can still be saved for it has already agreed with all the councils on the essentials and it is never allowed to change what other popes have taught in the future councils can not be made to be against the essentials but only to be more specific about non essentials the churches have already agreed on the essentials

But I will still go to Catholic Church to be confirmed and have communion and attend meetings to be sure

Some of these quotes may be supposedly telling the meanings of certain chapters and not what they actually said though it could be from the chapters

I believe the fathers are obscure and we can not know what they meant perhaps they believe the pope can only be the one to have the faith of Peter but if you agree with him you will be a rock also

All these quotes can go for either position for example the one by John chrysostom May mean peter sought to hear the other apostles and through doing so he gave his opinion which could be infallible if he exercises his gift but if not he admits others could be right without him but they are not guaranteed to be without it he has to later correct them to be the teacher of truth

 

[mikeforjesus]

Cyprian in his letter unity of the church I think was harsh and I see is the motivation for saying the same things about me. I think I will still hold other Christians are saved if they have the same fruits of the Spirit but I will go to churches just to see if they can produce more fruit but I will still hope other
Christians will be saved but I will go to see I don’t need the church guidance and to produce fruit but God can guide all believers to righteousness. Otherwise I will hope all believers can be saved but I don’t know so they should maybe join the church if they want to be sure of salvation.

 

[mikeforjesus]

I trust in the justice of God that all believers can be saved but others can join a church if they are not convinced

 

[mikeforjesus]

I thought the scriptures teach it it seems to and it could be true but I cannot be sure I would like to be convinced but I cannot be sure we have to assume the church fathers are right therefore everyone should join the church to be sure

 

[mikeforjesus]

Actually I do trust in the justice of God and what I believe is true and God is just that He can live His life through all believers and all can be saved who believe in Jesus and follow Him. If others feel they may need more they can join a church

 

[mikeforjesus]

Peter may simply have been master and head of the apostles as orthodox have a pope
He was chosen to be master because God saw him most  fit for the task but he was not infallible even if the Roman pope was to be given the honour and Christ makes them most fit for the task we don’t know if they are the only one who can find out the truth or if the church together becomes infallible but a master is chosen with more grace to get more things done

“The bishops of every nation must acknowledge him who is first among them and account him as their head and do nothing of consequence without his consent; BUT EACH MAY DO THOSE THINGS WHICH CONCERN HIS OWN PARISH AND THE COUNTRY PLACES WHICH BELONG TO IT. But neither let him who is the first do anything WITHOUT THE CONSENT OF ALL For so there will be ONENESS OF MIND and God will be glorified through the Lord in the Holy Spirit. ‚ÄìApostolic Canon XXXIV

 

[mikeforjesus]

We know that at any time the church may not have settled a dispute so what will happen to those who die while the church has not declared dogma therefore I don’t believe anyone at anytime must know all things as long as he has the essentials which I believe God grants all believers to know.

 

[mikeforjesus]

I think we should assume unless one can know that there is a true church we should assume there is a true church taught by the apostolic fathers but I want to be convinced Orthodox is true and  all apostolic churches have salvation but otherwise you may need to know where the true church is. Hopefully you can be convinced if Orthodox Church is true Catholic Church has salvation in it too but otherwise you may have to hold one church is true and follow which church is most convincing. I wish God would show me definitely others are saved outside of them but I do not know so I have to join a apostolic church.  I don’t want to mislead people anymore that they don’t need the church we must assume you do but I could be wrong

 

[mikeforjesus]

Actually it is better to trust that God is just but if one thinks he needs the church he can join it

 

[mikeforjesus]

All these church fathers are not clear for both positions existed in the church from the beginning that is why they address them and sometimes could have held it or retracted it so we never knew what is true. For example during Cyprian time pope Stephen held to papal supremacy as it was not known what was true and both churches existed and there was a number of other fathers at same time who supported Rome and we can not know what the first apostolic church believed as it is not clear. As for me I think it is right to accept all Christians as God is just and I believe scripture has support and it is most accurate position but others can join a church if they don’t believe.

 

[mikeforjesus]

We can’t know if church agrees with my views on other apostolic churches and churches still claim exclusivity possibly and I don’t think that is the most right path to follow if I want to save souls as I believe my path is more correct and just

 

[mikeforjesus]

I decided I should not risk being lost if what I believe is not true id like to be more convinced it is the truth it could be but I don’t know I will try to seek assurance from God but we are only responsible for ourselves foremost but others should seek the truth and to be saved but I am going to seek my own salvation. I will join the Catholic Church to see if it is true otherwise I will hold orthodoxy is true which I believe Catholics also have salvation for they follow the essentials their popes being in conformity to early church fathers.
I think both churches are accepted but I can go to Catholic Church to see if it is true or Orthodox Church to see if it is true but unless it is proved only orthodox is true I can accept both churches if Orthodox Church is true but if people wonder what the actual truth is they can learn it from the orthodox yet they can remain catholic

 

[mikeforjesus]

It seems harsh you need the church to be saved but you might I don’t know but God won’t let evil doers in heaven I think God may save Christians outside churches but I’m not sure they should join the churches and pick what they think is true to be sure

 

[mikeforjesus]

Actually I decided I believe there is nothing wrong with trusting in Christ alone that I can do so. I believe I have the truth already and do not believe I will be lost because of it.  The saints will be glad that we did they shall be honoured for their virtues there is no envy in heaven even if my way is better and more true and just and the true faith one could do it but one has to make a decision I won’t get higher reward because we are to share in victory together we all had in mind salvation of souls but mine was more popular. Others don’t have to follow me if they want assurance. But everyone who follows Christ can be saved

 

[mikeforjesus]

I may have pleased God in that matter but I am not treated better no one envies they rejoice and no one is made to feel less important but God rejoices in each of them that they were saved and followed His path

 

[mikeforjesus]

Perhaps the orthodox and catholic are both wrong because traditionally the church did teach peter had a primacy but the pope did not do things by himself or by himself have infallibility but did things with the apostles unlike now. They believed the pope was responsible to teach the faith but he could err but without him you could not determine the true faith.  Not all the fathers believed this but many in the early church may have. It does not seem biblical but it could possibly be biblical that Paul is not less than Peter in the sense of honor just his role. He is able to minister but he would have to agree when peter is orthodox but he acknowledges the church can not be guided into all truth without peter but they are not infallible. This may be incorrect therefore the existence of orthodox position. But I think only the biblical is true and neither of them is true because the fathers could support primacy of peter in that sense it is not clear but not catholicism today or one could believe the fathers support orthodoxy but it is not clear or some might but it is not clear. I am not sure what to believe the fathers teach for they could support either I can see the case for the orthodox makes sense but I can not know for sure. I think maybe the bible teachers neither and we can believe the truth is revealed to all christians and the bible teaches not to boast to belong to God because of a certain teacher. The bible I think is the full truth.

 

[mikeforjesus]

Though the fathers teach the rock is christ they still say Peter because of his faith in christ he is a rock and we could say the rest of the apostles also are built on the rock when they obtain that faith from peter. It is not clear whether Peter will have a primacy to ensure others know what the faith is though one could also have his faith but they may have thought the pope is ensured to be right if he exercises his gift so as to know who has the true faith. We can not know what they believed and both positions seem to have existed