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mikeforjesus

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I don’t think either church has the right to restrict God I believe the bible shows God as more accepting and just so I won’t follow either but even if I held that the Orthodox Church is truth I believe Catholics can be saved too because they also follow the early church fathers and you can’t know for sure Catholic is not the true church the Fathers say not to desert the chair of peter it could mean the orthodox faith that all bishops must teach what is  got from ecumenical councils and to submit to decisions of your patriarch as he is the leader to decide the role of each for why is one leader chosen to remove occasions for division ? I think as article below says he is a peacekeeper which can be while there is a heirrachy for all clergy so he keeps peace until the church can agree on matters the guiding into all truth is gradual or it could be the bishop of Rome is the one who can find the true faith but I believe anyway the position of Rome should not be exclusive. But I believe the orthodox position is true unless proven otherwise but should not be exclusive or maybe Rome is right but should never condemn orthodox because they are a leader in faith just to say the truth to not have those condemned who believe it but all we have we already believe to be saved which is confession of faith in Christ and all His words in scripture confirmed in the early church fathers

https://www.thevoiceoforthodoxy.com/a-refutation-of-four-roman-catholic-apologetics/

 

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The article linked to in the end of the message above is:
A REFUTATION OF FOUR ROMAN “CATHOLIC” APOLOGETICS.
It did not make very clear what the four apologetics were.
It seemed to focus alot on Jimmy Akin's Catholic Apologetic article on why Akin is not Orthodox.
 

mikeforjesus

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Yeah but it still discussed some things that are useful
 

mikeforjesus

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Jerome seemed to think Rome is where the chair of peter is and other fathers also believed that but they seemed undecided but Jerome seemed more decided to believe the chair of peter is the faith of peter taught by the pope but he could have meant the chair of peter is where the true faith is kept in Rome but why did he want to be in communion with Damasus who believed the Roman see had primacy but maybe he did not mean he is infallible but that his sea has no stain or blemish if one searches for the true faith in but Jerome seemed to think Rock is the faith of the apostles and the tradition could have developed later and one is not blamed for not knowing what is true or even if they believed in pope as only teacher they could have been mistaken and not what all the universal church taught or all the fathers definitely believed it does not seem biblical anyway for there is no evidence in the bible that peter and the pope were needed to teach the rest but Jesus said let none be your teacher though orthodox take ecumenical councils to be what God taught all and Paul said in nothing is he inferior than the eminent apostles they may not know what the ancient church believed of irenaeus and ignatius. Irenaeus says Rome had kept the faith therefore only in that sense the fathers should go to Rome not to learn it from the pope. The orthodox position could be the position irenaeus and ignatius taught in all the world that those outside the west held they did not depend on the pope to teach them. The fathers did not also seem to think the pope had infallibility maybe they believed he can if he is faithful teach the true faith but Cyprian taught not even the pope can excommunicate you if you wish to stay in the church if you do not agree with pope new teaching but only God can judge
But I don’t think all the fathers held that the pope alone can determine the true faith

Since the East, shattered as it is by the long-standing feuds, subsisting between its peoples, is bit by bit tearing into shreds the seamless vest of the Lord, woven from the top throughout, John 19:23 since the foxes are destroying the vineyard of Christ, Song of Songs 2:15 and since among the broken cisterns that hold no water it is hard to discover the sealed fountain and the garden inclosed, Song of Songs 4:12 I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church whose faith has been praised by Paul. I appeal for spiritual food to the church whence I have received the garb of Christ. The wide space of sea and land that lies between us cannot deter me from searching for the pearl of great price. …
My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross. As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built!
St Jerome


So I think all the fathers sought the tradition of Rome while there was heresy in other parts of the church but it doesn’t mean the church was infallible

“Behold how Peter does all things by common consent, and decides nothing by his own authority and power.”
St. John chrysostom homily on acts

Catholics take that to mean on appointing an apostle

Still we don’t know if the church fathers mean all can have the faith of Peter without learning from one man.

Anyway even if the fathers meant Rome it is not clear and they seem undecided about what the rock is and I think it is clear Jesus built His church on faith in Him and not on Peter. You don’t need a man to teach you the true faith orthodox shouldn’t think that either but they think the truth is known when all in the church agree. I think believers only need to believe Jesus is Son of God who is God but that which is of Him that can be manifest to men who needed to come to die for men to save man and restore him and to have relationship with Him to grow up in His will as far as they can learn from bible and all Christians they could profit from but only the bible is needed but they profit from learning from others knowledge of the bible who have studied the bible more and walked it out and they can profit from anyone experience.
 

mcarmichael

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mikeforjesus said:
[...] only the bible is needed but they profit from learning from others knowledge of the bible who have studied the bible more and walked it out and they can profit from anyone experience.
Makes sense to me.
 

mikeforjesus

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If I was serious about and really believed or trusted churches I would hold this position but I am more convinced that God wants me not to cause offense to other Christians that we are all Christians and I should not stumble anyone of any family who believed in Christ
The church saints like st Anthony worried only about their own souls because they didn’t have faith in Christ words or know but I have faith and don’t want to cause grief to those who are believers. I do however understand if I trusted God wants people to join the church to give chance for all living to be saved by trying to find out true church if one can have 100% assurance which it seems you can’t or accept Orthodox Church if you are orthodox while accepting catholic


I think the early church believed every believer is in the church and the chair of peter is concept of confessing other things true the Lord has said as He said upon rock of peter confession of Christ He will build His church that is He will teach him all things that are true and one of those things He taught Peter is that the rock is principally Christ that peter will build on it and can teach the full faith correctly but that all are still in the church who share the essentials the Lord taught for peter was built on the Lord words and the Lords words truly that Peter would admit is true is that there is some essentials and not essentials that Peter would have agreed that they are still in the church  but they may lack a perfect understanding of all things so as not to condemn those who believe the truth so others who want to be Christian don’t find others condemning them for believing something true that other Christians don’t agree with
So deserting the chair of Peter is deserting the faith of Peter in which he confesses there is essentials to believe and it could be the orthodox and us who are Peter to reveal the whole truth which we seek the truth from agreement of whole church  the ones who declare the full truth or it could be the pope who is able to declare full truths but they are not essentials I take it you are not leaving the church if you agree on the essentials the unity of faith as cyprian allegedly said rock is unity of faith and not person of Peter but Catholics may think differently and they have to agree with pope other teachings or stay in union with him

I will seek to be more convinced that orthodox position is true and will only be orthodox in the sense of accepting Catholics who believe in the essentials
I may go to Catholic Church only if one can be convinced 100% that it is the true church and all should enter it so I seek to be confirmed and have holy communion just to have experience afterwards I will return to the Orthodox Church and hold Catholics can be saved too
 

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I don’t need to go to Orthodox Church anymore for I think I am convinced enough it has a valid position that should not be exclusive. I won’t go to Catholic Church either but a person who believes in churches should. I now realise I should have listened to my dad advise yesterday who said to no longer go on forums that divide only go on Christian forums where you can’t attack others faith
 

mikeforjesus

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Chair of Peter is true faith of the believers in the Lords words the essentials to be in the church I believe one can hold but you can believe pope or church is necessary to more clearly other things to be built on it so that no one can say the church does not still know everything about what the Lord said so others can not attack Christianity because they think some of them don’t believe all Christ has said
 

mikeforjesus

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but I believe people only need to believe the essentials and not other things that do not make one worthy of judgement or not.  These essentials the whole believers will be guided into all truth and be able to agree on that the gates of hades will not prevail but the church thinks other specifics are needed to know to base on to make its claim it is the true church and they nowadays make non essentials necessary for salvation to believe but I think one can hold the church at the time did not make non essentials necessary for salvation if it was orthodox.
 

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mikeforjesus said:
Chair of Peter is true faith of the believers in the Lords words the essentials to be in the church I believe one can hold but you can believe pope or church is necessary to more clearly other things to be built on it so that no one can say the church does not still know everything about what the Lord said so others can not attack Christianity because they think some of them don’t believe all Christ has said
I was editing it and time elapsed

Chair of Peter is true faith of the believers in the Lords words the essentials to be in the church I believe one can hold but you can believe pope or church is necessary to know more clearly other things to be built on it that are not essentials so that no one can say the church does not still know everything about what the Lord said so others can not attack Christianity because they think some of them don't agree on everything christ has said which church made it important but I don't think that is important only when it is something worthy of judgement
 

mikeforjesus

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Jerome may have thought the east had disagreements but they should not have they could believe the true faith but God made the pope of Rome to be the one that should settle arguments and teach the true faith and gave them grace to say the truth when there is disagreements but anyone who was sincere in believing the truth should be able to know the essentials but the pope is to ensure they hold the essentials as a measure of unity and that was his role but the non essentials might have also been looked to the pope. But perhaps not all the church fathers held that some may have held that matters could be resolved in ecumenical councils
 

mikeforjesus

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The bible only mentions St. Peter as a fellow elder but John chrysostom according to these quotes according to Catholics we should conclude he was their teacher I believe he may have had a primacy among the disciples in that he was chosen to maintain the unity of the church to instruct the apostles what he wants them to do because he was given the honour of ruling the church but he was not infallible. His input was to be appreciated but they worked together with his leading though he was not infallible 

http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/num52.htm
 

mikeforjesus

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mcarmichael said:
mikeforjesus said:
[...] only the bible is needed but they profit from learning from others knowledge of the bible who have studied the bible more and walked it out and they can profit from anyone experience.
Makes sense to me.
I always miss seeing your posts. Thanks for your kind reply
 

mcarmichael

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mikeforjesus said:
mcarmichael said:
mikeforjesus said:
[...] only the bible is needed but they profit from learning from others knowledge of the bible who have studied the bible more and walked it out and they can profit from anyone experience.
Makes sense to me.
I always miss seeing your posts. Thanks for your kind reply
You need a commentator, someone to talk to.
 

mikeforjesus

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mcarmichael said:
mikeforjesus said:
mcarmichael said:
mikeforjesus said:
[...] only the bible is needed but they profit from learning from others knowledge of the bible who have studied the bible more and walked it out and they can profit from anyone experience.
Makes sense to me.
I always miss seeing your posts. Thanks for your kind reply
You need a commentator, someone to talk to.
Thankyou for commenting trying not to be irritated with how much I write and giving my views a chance
 

mcarmichael

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I don't have the patience to read your stuff but it occurs to me that it may be because I disagree with you fundamentally, because I'm actually very patient.
Try not to say so much. You aren't St. Paul, I will not pray that you would speak more boldly.
 

mcarmichael

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Please don't pay too much attention to me, Mike. I was drinking again and wasn't really thinking.

What I was trying to say, I think, is that I think everyone can see that you are struggling with your faith, and that's good, but I don't want to give you a slap on the back if you're in some kind of big error, although I'm hardly qualified to say. So it was a conditional back slap. May God bless you, Mike.
 

mikeforjesus

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Thankyou for your kindness but you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine
 

mikeforjesus

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I don’t believe I am anything like the apostle Paul in that I am not an apostle revealing directly what God said to me but only what bible says but I believe having my beliefs I should give hope to other Christians within these divisions and my faith could be that of Paul I would like more assurance from God but it is what I choose for myself because I believe it is most just and seems right  according to my opinion of the gospels

Since the East, shattered as it is by the long-standing feuds, subsisting between its peoples, is bit by bit tearing into shreds the seamless vest of the Lord, woven from the top throughout, John 19:23 since the foxes are destroying the vineyard of Christ, Song of Songs 2:15 and since among the broken cisterns that hold no water it is hard to discover the sealed fountain and the garden inclosed, Song of Songs 4:12 I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church whose faith has been praised by Paul. I appeal for spiritual food to the church whence I have received the garb of Christ. The wide space of sea and land that lies between us cannot deter me from searching for the pearl of great price. …
My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross. As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built!
St Jerome

But you say, the Church was founded upon Peter: although elsewhere the same is attributed to all the Apostles, and they all receive the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the strength of the Church depends upon them all alike, yet one among the twelve is chosen so that when a head has been appointed, there may be no occasion for schism.
St Jerome

It seems Jerome and maybe other church fathers believed the successor of Peter had a role to heal the divisions of the church on his faith he was supposed to say the true faith for the others but he did not always and was either not infallible or he may know the truth and purposely choose to teach error. Rome had no major problems of any heresy at that time so it had no stain or blemish
Cyprian even says heresy can not be taught by Rome but he believed pope Stephen believed in heresy even if he changed his mind later it is clear he did not believe heresy could not come about only that it would always be overcome by a better intention Pope or the church at Rome. But the church fathers may have believed the church is built on the faith of Peter which the chair of peter has the role to make sure they teach the true faith which all must accept to be in the church and hence not deserting the chair of Peter which is to believe in the essentials and introducing a heresy in the nature of Christ is an attack on the essentials and Jerome felt if one is forced to accept a formula more nuanced which may subtly be a heresy which you do not agree with or know then he risks perverting the faith and feared being outside of Christ being outside the church so he sought Rome guidance but if he simply did not accept any as an authority on specifics or claim to know but did not doubt Jesus is the Son of God but sought to learn better how God is made up in more specifics I believe he is still Christian

He believed anyone who would eat the Eucharist without being in the church would perish but he may not only mean only those who were ordained by Catholic clergy but those who share the true faith of Christian essentials that the pope had role to teach to make sure they agree with essentials

So many early fathers could also be orthodox I believe some were strictly catholic later but we don’t know if all the fathers were and there may be some that were orthodox but before Chalcedon do we have any writings of people that disagreed clearly with papal primacy ? I don’t think such can be found so you can only speculate that many of the fathers were either catholic or orthodox if there were it would attack the catholic faith more because orthodox seem to be more biblical which God did not want for God wanted all to have reason to think they are true. Orthodox may also have the support of the fathers but we can’t say more support of the fathers. But as you can not know I believe it is also why God wanted only the bible to be reliable to trust God is for everyone


St. Cyprian on the Church and the Papacy
" ...they dare even to set sail...to the chair of Peter and the principal Church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source...whose faith was praised by the preaching Apostle, and among whom it is not possible for perfidy [errors or perversion of faith] to have entrance." (Epistle 59:14)
 

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Do you think people should go to hell for not knowing for sure where the true church is ? How can you be sure one church is perfect and biblical. If God is not willing for any to perish how come it is not easy for some to find the true faith when they don’t have much time left. Those who have wandered far off and stumbled many it would seem do not deserve to find the true faith but how can it be true that God is not willing even for them to perish to hide the true faith from them ?
 

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As I said the bible says He is not far from each of us and all are judged because they did not want the truth. The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is to know the truth and reject it why are some not orthodox or catholic because they suspect it is exclusive and not the full truth of Jesus character but they are willing to be proven absolutely one is true but if Jesus required them to be in that church since they desire the truth He would make sure that truth is not far from any of them to absolutely know it is true without fear of maybe being wrong. Jesus said He will reveal the truth to people who seek Him. For those who are actually seeking to know the absolute truth. It is He who reveals it and no one else. So we are born not of the will of man but of God. And Gods will is that all find Him and whoever knocks the door is promised to be opened to him from God Himself. Everyone who seeks finds the word everyone is used because God will not make it harder for some not to find Him

And if God can give truth to everyone and not make it harder for some as He said the  one who comes to Me I will not cast out and He is even the one who stands at the door and knocks wanting one to find Him as He said I will give the water of life freely to him who thirsts that is without charging by making it difficult to find Him. Do you think He would be pleased to give this salvation only to one group if you are the cause of making others not find this group

What father among you will give a serpent to him who asks for bread. He gives good things to those who ask Him just because He asks. He asks it from God Himself and He gets

God has already convinced others that He is the truth so He is not required to show more but if  one is persistent he can get but He will not hide the truth to absolutely know the way from any who asks because He already revealed He is the way but to be better convinced you have to seek more
 

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Since even if you seek in the church you can not be absolutely sure from God that it is the truth and He wants you to be exclusive I do not believe the truth is in churches. All truth that comes from God that He is most pleased with He is able to through some way give assurance. If catholic was true and it pleased God for me to follow it He will give assurance one will not just be convinced. The same likewise with orthodox and if orthodox was true but traditionally such as in ecumenical councils they did not reject those with views of papal supremacy but only their decisions God will be able to give assurance they did and He doesn’t want to judge one. But it seems there is no way to give assurance for one may doubt the way He gives us as a deception so it has to be give that assurance through one conscience
 

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mikeforjesus said:
Since even if you seek in the church you can not be absolutely sure from God that it is the truth and He wants you to be exclusive I do not believe the truth is in churches.
Just because someone doesn't believe that they can be absolutely sure "from God" of something being true (eg the church) doesn't mean that it is not true (eg. the church).

For instance, the Bible in Isaiah calls the earth a disc, whereas the ancient Greeks theorized that it was a sphere. So in ancient times you might not be sure "from God" that the earth was a disc, ie. Flat, or a sphere, ie. Round. But your lack of surety doesn't mean that the earth's flatness or roundness was not true.
 

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I believe if it is the truth God is able to convince it is absolutely the truth. I have already shown why I believe so. I believe He would never allow one to not know the truth who seeks it if they have not much time left therefore I believe the truth is in Christ. But those who seek Him whole heartedly I believe He can also reveal the truth. Something important for our salvation He makes known. Therefore if anyone seeks the truth he is supposed to know for sure it is the truth and to be able to find the whole truth

Therefore if one seeks the truth from the Catholic Church and one can know for sure it is the truth God somehow confirming it for sure it is the truth. Likewise if one seeks the truth from Orthodox Church and to know from God that orthodoxy never condemned those who believe in papal supremacy but only their decisions but they are only saved if their faith is on the rock of the essentials
 

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I suppose if one can atleast be convinced any church is 100% biblical and has the support of the fathers he should follow it so it is best to seek convincing from both churches. God would not let that truth be hidden from those who seek for He said everyone who seeks finds and I think as everyone still has a chance to be saved even those with little time left if it was the truth He would always make it not difficult to find it but one would know where to seek it and as people really need truth I don’t think they can not know where to find the truth it’s that they never went to those who they know will give the truth to them and I think that is Christ who is guaranteed to be someone who can help you when you don’t know if anyone else can help. It’s all God from prayer and the word and you are the one to search others only when you need help understanding the way that leads to Christ practically you know what you are searching for so you know who can help with it if you ask. But if no one has been able to assist one in knowing if a church is fully biblical when you asked and no one made any definite convincing answers when you asked publicly then you know they do not know
 

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Also you can only hold you think salvation is in one church if you are convinced but you can’t hold for sure if you don’t know other arguments. But if one does not know his orthodox faith and he fully believes the Catholic Church he is not orthodox and should convert but if he is not fully convinced he should seek the truth in both churches and he can choose to go to church to have communion to learn and be better but otherwise he is just Christian like me without being convinced
 

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One can go to church to be convinced that orthodoxy was the dominant position in the church and to find fathers that seem to support it before Chalcedon and to believe it as it is most biblical many believed it but others may have believed in papal supremacy but maybe they did not believe in papal supremacy just that they should defend the faith or have ability to and maybe some fathers did not believe the pope was needed at all if you can prove but they were not condemned for that belief but their actions were not accepted. But unless I can be convinced either position is fully biblical I won’t follow it as I don’t think it pleases God if they can’t declare by fact other Churches are saved and that is what I think is right just to know how they thought I think proof it is not right and I should not cause divisions
 

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You have to ask yourself are the metrics I'm using the right metrics?
For a long time I couldn't bring myself even to consider the RCC because of the blessed virgin, but then there is a conflict because the Bible doesn't say much about her but it does say a lot about the church.
It's almost too much for a liberal mind to swallow sometimes. I was raised an anabaptist, and I'm asked to embrace paedobaptism. Ugh.

This place is literally a puddle of Orthodoxy. Why do you seem to concentrate your efforts here?
I literally would like to hear a good reply. Excessive Ecumenicism bothers me a bit.
 

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St. Ambrose ("On the Incarnation")
Faith is the foundation of the Church, for it was not of the person but of the faith of St. Peter that it was said that the gates of hell should not prevail against it;  it is the confession of faith that has vanquished hell.  Jesus Christ is the Rock.  He did not deny the grace of His name when He called him Peter, because he borrowed from the rock the constancy and solidity of hisfaith.  Endeavor then, thyself to be a rock -- thy rock is thy faith, and faith is the foundation of the Church.  If thou art a rock, thou shalt be in the Church, for the Church is built upon the rock

Since the East, shattered as it is by the long-standing feuds, subsisting between its peoples, is bit by bit tearing into shreds the seamless vest of the Lord, woven from the top throughout, John 19:23 since the foxes are destroying the vineyard of Christ, Song of Songs 2:15 and since among the broken cisterns that hold no water it is hard to discover the sealed fountain and the garden inclosed, Song of Songs 4:12 I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church whose faith has been praised by Paul. I appeal for spiritual food to the church whence I have received the garb of Christ. The wide space of sea and land that lies between us cannot deter me from searching for the pearl of great price. …
My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross. As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built!
St Jerome

I don't know if Jerome was catholic he could be but Ambrose seemed to believe anyone can be a rock without the pope guiding him. Jerome could think the pope job by christ was to be a rock and the leader of the churches. He should teach the true faith to the other churches but he will not always.

The church of Peter means the church with peter confession that is everyone in the churches with peter confession which the pope job was to try to say the true faith when he makes ecumenical councils in order to unify the churches. As jerome says rome church was praised by paul that is because they were careful to guard the faith traditionally so till then the pope acted as a rock.

Because I don't see scriptural justification for Peter being infallible in bible or only one who can say the faith for others because Paul says in nothing is he less than the most eminent apostles
 

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Because the church is built on the confession of Christ and it is the church which is lead to all truth that the gates of hades prevails not even though the Pope was called the rock because he truly sat on the chair of Peter by his confession and should therefore heal the divisions

Even though Papal supremacy is not right as Firmillian says even though those in Rome do not hold all things from the beginning yet they are not separated from the church universal.
I believe they are still in the church because they don't believe in heresy of christ nature and the essentials or if it is heresy it is misunderstanding only and not something which denies the divinity of christ like the filoque. Therefore they are in the church. They have apostolic succession I don't agree it is important but they think perhaps only those with apostolic successions have the gifts of the Holy Spirit to lead the flock but I don't think so. I don't see the purpose of doing so.

Since the East, shattered as it is by the long-standing feuds, subsisting between its peoples, is bit by bit tearing into shreds the seamless vest of the Lord, woven from the top throughout, John 19:23 since the foxes are destroying the vineyard of Christ, Song of Songs 2:15 and since among the broken cisterns that hold no water it is hard to discover the sealed fountain and the garden inclosed, Song of Songs 4:12 I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church whose faith has been praised by Paul. I appeal for spiritual food to the church whence I have received the garb of Christ. The wide space of sea and land that lies between us cannot deter me from searching for the pearl of great price. …
My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross. As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built!
St Jerome

Chair of Peter is rock because those sitting on it at the time really were and are tasked to be as Peter keeping the faith if they have not fallen into error
 

mikeforjesus

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The chair of Peter if it is orthodox which it was has the responsibility to teach the other churches but it is not always guaranteed to be. But He set Peter first to have primacy of telling the truth if he is diligent  with study and prayer he may obtain the faith faster for the sake of unity of church but if he does not the church as a whole will be lead into truth
 

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Or the church could have some who don’t know the true faith but others that are faithful and know but the pope job with special gift in him is to say the true faith on the essentials though all who are diligent can find it but maybe the pope could not err if he honestly sought the truth
 

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mikeforjesus said:
I may have pleased God in that matter but I am not treated better no one envies they rejoice and no one is made to feel less important but God rejoices in each of them that they were saved and followed His path
People should be grateful if they are even spared from hell which others without Christ are not the bible may not agree with the church completely and there are bible believers who believe the truth . No one is treated better but for more to be saved one can preach bible only ideally if he believes. God may grant knowledge of truth to him who seeks but still he is not rewarded better but because God gave more knowledge to him more is required.
But people are rewarded with salvation only if they are faithful in their talents to preach according to their understanding because atleast Christ is preached and they may listen to others or you. The reward of the one who preaches the truth is the salvation of all people that all rejoice in even those who desired their salvation but feared it is not the truth. I would still be saved with not preaching it but we should not because we all really want many to be saved.
 

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I know you all want others to be saved if you are good so you won’t really care at the end if my beliefs are found to be right and you have to accept your beliefs are more wrong and don’t let others be saved and be grateful that you are saved
 

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That sounds okay I guess except I don't understand about not letting others be saved. Orthodox Christians aim or desire for everyone to be saved instead of trying to not let others be saved.
 

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Because one should believe the word of God if one conscience tells one it is right to do so but he is not obliged to preach it if he is not convinced. By let others not be saved I mean you may stumble them if you attack others for not being orthodox but for you should only hold that is your opinion if you think so but those who are more convinced others are saved should preach others are saved


Because the true church is not exclusive though you need to fellowship with the true church which is the biblical church and to be baptised to be saved upon death all believers who follow the commandments God understands to give the Holy Spirit to all believers now as He gave to the gentiles but to have all the gifts of the Spirit and remission of sins and unity with God now you need to be baptized and maybe to have communion because I believe Jesus is the bread of life but He offers Himself as believers come together to commune to make them whole  in this life as the apostles told to come together on the Lords day and all believers should be doing so and ask God blessing on their gatherings but they will still be saved in the world to come
 

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mcarmichael said:
You have to ask yourself are the metrics I'm using the right metrics?
For a long time I couldn't bring myself even to consider the RCC because of the blessed virgin, but then there is a conflict because the Bible doesn't say much about her but it does say a lot about the church.
It's almost too much for a liberal mind to swallow sometimes. I was raised an anabaptist, and I'm asked to embrace paedobaptism. Ugh.

This place is literally a puddle of Orthodoxy. Why do you seem to concentrate your efforts here?
I literally would like to hear a good reply. Excessive Ecumenicism bothers me a bit.
Because bible believers should not be treated with disrespect by orthodox and hinder the gospel orthodox don’t have to embrace my faith and I wanted to show I respect other people faith as something one might feel they need to believe in believing it is the full truth still though I believe it is not the full truth and only allowed by God. But as I believe I may be wasting my time in arguments I may just spend more time on Christian only forum or spend more time reading His word and praying to find His will
 

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mikeforjesus said:
mcarmichael said:
You have to ask yourself are the metrics I'm using the right metrics?
For a long time I couldn't bring myself even to consider the RCC because of the blessed virgin, but then there is a conflict because the Bible doesn't say much about her but it does say a lot about the church.
It's almost too much for a liberal mind to swallow sometimes. I was raised an anabaptist, and I'm asked to embrace paedobaptism. Ugh.

This place is literally a puddle of Orthodoxy. Why do you seem to concentrate your efforts here?
I literally would like to hear a good reply. Excessive Ecumenicism bothers me a bit.
Because bible believers should not be treated with disrespect by orthodox and hinder the gospel orthodox don’t have to embrace my faith and I wanted to show I respect other people faith as something one might feel they need to believe in believing it is the full truth still though I believe it is not the full truth and only allowed by God. But as I believe I may be wasting my time in arguments I may just spend more time on Christian only forum or spend more time reading His word and praying to find His will
I thought you'd miss my last reply forever, wow!

Maybe you just need to talk yourself through this, and this is how you to prefer to do that. The Mods don't seem to mind too much, and maybe you like to associate with the Orthodox church, as I do.

Thanks for your reply. You can't blame me for asking, can you? You know that you have built a library of works here. A virtual wall of text.
 

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Still one is only responsible for himself I believe I have found the right way and the truth which is in Jesus but one should still search and see if he is wrong if the Catholic Church could make sense as the biblical church by attending their meetings to do your duty to loved ones to find out the truth for them or the Orthodox Church by also attending their meetings perhaps one does not need communion in the Catholic Church as they say we orthodox have the same communion but one can have it once to make sure but otherwise one can go to Orthodox Church as he thinks it may be the true church but he does not know to give it a chance to convince but other Christians may be right but one can die as orthodox to make sure though I’m not sure according to Orthodox you can be saved unless you really believe it and judge others to be sure but I think atleast to seek the truth
 
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