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mikeforjesus

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I posted the below on christian forums

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/jesus-said-whoever-denies-me-before-men-will-be-denied-before-the-father.8170671/
 

mikeforjesus

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To view link you have to have a Christian forums account
 

mikeforjesus

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I believe I was mistaken to not trust I have the truth I trust God is just and He would not want divisions. If others are not convinced it is up to the individual to search the truth in churches for themselves. But I am convinced I have the truth
 

mikeforjesus

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Actually there is nothing wrong with seeking in churches but I don’t think I will find any truth in church but people are responsible to believe they are Christians
 

mikeforjesus

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I think it is right for me to stay where I am as there appears to be nothing I am interested to wonder about churches so I will stay where I am but if others wonder about something or do not think they have the truth they can join but I think I have the truth.
 

mikeforjesus

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From what I know I could choose to be orthodox but I still don’t think it is most biblical and it is exclusive that is why I said there is nothing to wonder about
 

mikeforjesus

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I also already disagree that the other apostles than Peter in any way depended on one other  apostle to know something to teach others though they sought together each other advice as they were taught by Jesus.  Peter John and James were just chosen above the rest because God communicated with them more because they spent more time with the Lord because they would be entrusted with more that is why they were pillars and that is why Paul called them pillars and himself they each wrote books in the bible  so there is nothing it seems a Catholic can say to me to convince me Peter was their head and it would be from tradition which I believe catholic and orthodox both have tradition and I don’t think it is good for me to accept tradition which I don’t think is necessarily biblical and I won’t follow it because it is better to have no divisions and I could just read up on lives and learn from their example
 

mikeforjesus

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I believe divisions was never Gods will just allowed because He knew they would happen and people who did not want to be part of a church or believe it is necessary were always called to strengthen people faith though other people are responsible to have faith and can join a church
 

mikeforjesus

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When Paul said let there be no divisions among you he was just showing that in fact the church should not be divided but it does not mean if they are divided they will not be saved but that those who believe the apostles and Jesus who wanted unity should lead the way in also accepting those who followed other men separate from the apostles tradition following a tradition that one may not know whether the apostles approved of it in their lifetime whether God wanted it created to test men or man made. For I think the truth may be revealed to those who seek Him diligently. They must still be humble for God will however not give them greater reward for knowing the truth that is just to give them assurance and others and as Paul said what do you have that you did not receive people are rewarded based on the virtues they gain and what they teach to others and their duty to preach what they know.
 

mikeforjesus

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I was thinking the below but I am convinced I know the master will is not to make divisions. He doesn’t want me to make Protestants have no hope so I am going to stay just as Christian

I could be orthodox if I can accept Catholics are maybe true too but otherwise you are forcing me to believe what you have not shown me that orthodoxy is only true and I would be insincere.

If God did not have a purpose for divisions and wanted Catholicism to be the teacher of the faith but accept orthodox He could deliver to the apostolic fathers that Peter and his successors were the teachers of the faith but one only has to agree with them in so far as they keep the truth or if He wanted only orthodoxy to be true He could have fully supported them

But perhaps God did not want divisions to be an obstacle of salvation if he was to teach orthodoxy only is true (which I know people teach that now but how do we know others taught that before and orthodoxy may not have a concept that one always knows the truth of things but it will be guided to all it needs to know and it can not contradict the apostolic fathers but divisions came after ) because others could teach a wrong faith and others could become in ignorance of the true faith so people may not follow God because they are concerned about others who were ignorant of the true faith for perhaps we dont have a teaching of ignorance not being an excuse in orthodoxy but as long as one wanted to join the church they were accepted. Catholicism is not definitely the true church though it has support so it does not have justification that all should join it. God could have justified that all be orthodox but He neither wanted that either

Though one could have reason to doubt peter being head as he never seemed as needed to teach anyone it does not mean it could still not be a possible position but we can’t prove as Paul went to see Peter as he was head and maybe oversaw the church as he said as Paul wrote some things hard to understand which people twist to their own destruction the apostles were working good on their own but I suppose they could have been taught by Peter by letters or when they join if there is something the Lord told him to teach he could have been their head

If one can prove that the fathers did support the Position of primacy of Peter as teacher while also accepting orthodox that would help

We have this quote apparently from st Jerome that Abbe Guettee mentions but I downloaded that book online and that is mentioned nowhere but it is still possible they saw the pope as augustine shows to have primacy among the disciples when he teaches the true faith but he does not always so the church is built on the faith of Peter and he has primacy to have that faith that is if he exercises his gift he can have that faith but the church is built on the faith so if one agrees with the faith in the essentials that are true he is in the church but the current Roman church does not teach that So orthodox could still be in communion with the ancient Roman church.

St. Jerome represents St. Paul as saying: “I am in nothing inferior to Peter; for we were ordained by the same God for the same ministry.” [St. Jerome, Commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians, cited Abbe Guettee, The Papacy; clearly, if inferior in nothing (in nullo), then equal in every thing.]

Maybe Cyprian taught deserting the chair of peter is not being in unity with the faith of the pope when it is orthodox the pope having a primacy so there is one church that consists of Rome and others and the pope should have a leadership position but he is not infallible as Ambrose said Peter is master that is he makes the decisions but it should be in agreement with others if it is orthodox but as the church stopped being united with the east in requiring one to accept the infallibility of the pope the church of peter the pope is no longer teaching the truth about everything but in what he teaches one should accept or chair of peter is concept of accepting the true faith within the church that others in the church show is the most right and all those who speak the truth have Peter faith and therefore sit in his chair or agree what is true and in the church as Ambrose said faith is the foundation of the church not whether one accepts church as built on Peter

Therefore the church of peter is all those who agree with the true faith which consists of orthodox and catholic because it is divided now. But some still may think the rock is the pope because of his position because of some other quotes and that Jerome called Damasus the rock some may have believed that for a time so Catholics have justification for their faith but it is not necessarily true and the faith of all the fathers. Jerome May have meant because Rome was the place that was to preserve orthodoxy and it did at that time so it was the rock then or because Damasus did or the pope is the rock and able to teach truth if he exercises his gift he may also be able to declare orthodox only has to accept faith if God leads him to say so but He has not he is just kept from error doesn’t mean he is always guaranteed to know anything but I don’t believe catholicism is necessarily true and orthodox could be and I think likely God accepts both but I can’t teach that as I can not know if orthodoxy is the only true faith but I don’t know it is not

Augustine once confesses the rock as Peter and in another not but he believed he had a primacy over the disciples and it might mean all bishops of right faith are the rock because of their faith and they have power to loose and bind that is if they say the truth God will loose it and one must still go to them as Peter did have the keys specially in the first church as he was appointed to preach but the power to loose and bind was given to all the apostles. Atleast Ambrose seems to think Peter does not have authority through his rank that would make him say the right things but if he does say the right thing he must be obeyed and it is not certain it refers to the pope but all right believing Christians which is not got alone but which is found when the church agrees together or atleast if it errs sometimes it refers to those who teach the truth I don’t know if a clergy has better ability to find the truth for if one has the Holy Spirit he should know

"As soon as Peter heard these words,'Whom say ye that I am', remembering his place he exercised this primacy, a primacy of confession, not of honour, a primacy of faith, not of rank." St. Ambrose, "De In Som Sacr." 4:32

Faith is the foundation of the Church, for it was NOT OF THE PERSON but of the faith of St Peter that is was said that the gates of hell should not prevail against it, it is the confession of faith that has vanquished hell. Jesus Christ is the Rock. He did not deny the grace of His name when he called him Peter, because he borrowed from the rock the constancy and solidity of his faith. Endeavor then thyself to be a rock - thy rock is thy faith and faith is the foundation of the Church. If thou art a rock, thou shall be in the Church, for the Church is build upon the rock" ~St Ambrose, On the Incarnation.

For neither did Peter, whom first the Lord chose… when Paul disputed with him afterwards about the circumcision, claim anything to himself unsolently, nor arrogantly assume anything, so as to say that he held a primacy, and that he ought to be obeyed by novices and those lately come. Cyprian, Epistle LXX concerning the baptism of heretics.

In the administration of the Church each bishop has the free discretion of his own will, having to account only to the Lord for his actions. None of us may set himself up as bishop of bishops., nor compel his brothers to obey him; every bishop of the Church has full liberty and complete power; as he cannot be judged by another, neither can he judge another (Cyprian’s opening address to the Council of Carthage. …

“The Church is built upon THE ONE WHOM PETER CONFESSED when he said, ‘You are the Christ , the Son of the Living God’. That is how Peter came to be called the rock, and he REPRESENTED THE PERSON OF THE CHURCH WHO IS BUILT UPON THIS ROCK AND WHO HAS RECEIVED THE KEYS OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. Indeed, Christ did NOT say to Peter, ‘You are rock (petra)” but ‘You are Peter (Petrus). For THE ROCK (PETRA) WAS CHRIST whom he CONFESSED, as does THE WHOLE CHURCH, and he Simon, received the name of Peter” St Augustine, Retractationes I, XXI,

“Christ is the ROCk who granted to His Apostles that they should be called rock. God has founded His Church on this rock, and it is from this Rock [Christ] that Peter has been named” ‚ St. Jerome
 
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mcarmichael

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Idk, I'll probably try to be Orthodox, b/c it's 100x better than the church I was brought up in. I mean there is a danger that you lead someone to believe any church is okay, and there is a big difference between them.
Besides the Bible says a lot about the church so even if you only listen to the Bible you should learn something about the church.
 

mikeforjesus

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Well I have already if the God I teach is not true then He loses people through other actions and does not reveal Himself to those who ask to show them clearly the way. The division created by churches does not seem to come from the loving God represented in the bible. God tolerates division but He does not love it. But since I can not yet prove for sure my God is true people can consider to join the church but I do not think I should judge them if they do not for it may be God will accept them they may feel it not God will and God may accept them it may be true
 

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Could you clarify the first part a bit? I wear strong prescription glasses and I can't read it. Tks
 

mikeforjesus

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What I am saying is the fact that I may have convinced people they should not make divisions and that they should not stumble others and that Protestantism is more correct and they should not stumble others that it is better to be Protestant and made some stay Protestant and some orthodox may have become Protestants as I made it seem better and that if they are married to someone with family who has someone of Protestant belief it is more right not to be judgemental. If I was to become orthodox to convert others I am still responsible that others did not choose the orthodox faith. But why God does not show clearly what is the only proper path to follow for all. Why doesn’t He prove there is one church that is perfectly right and the only way. People may not want to become orthodox or catholic because they can not know for sure which is right if it is essential and if it is God will for them for they may think Protestantism is the most best path to lead some people to Christ. And as for me I do not desire to judge those I love who believe in Protestantism or those who died such because of me because I don’t think they clearly knew the way.
 

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I thought I could return to the church and follow this but I believe I shouldn’t for I believe God wanted people to have faith in Him and believe in Him as loving. God wanted us to be salty and to be able to convince people to follow Jesus. The Protestants do a good job in that for clearly the orthodox and Catholic Church are not even united and there have been good people among the protestants and you can’t win people much if you judge their family who were sincere in wanting to please Jesus. Protestants should teach baptism and communion but even still there is a possibility both or communion was never required though communion could or could not help one depending on if it is spiritual or not. I don’t think God would make one depend on others if they will give it to you to allow you to be closer to God

I have to trust that God has been reaching out to people to join a church and that they did not want to apart from my actions. God does not prove so because He does not prove Himself to people they have to believe .If He has not or He didn’t require it it is up to Him but I can not follow others if there is a chance they are wrong and not saved. I am not sure I am able to live a Christian life and have strength to fulfill my duties properly outside the church so I seek to return to the Orthodox Church. I can not be sure that the Catholic Church is the true church though I think it could have salvation in it as such divisions happend early and one could not know the true faith and God did not want to judge one for ignorance of truth if others had it later
 

mcarmichael

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But why God does not show clearly what is the only proper path to follow for all. Why doesn’t He prove there is one church that is perfectly right and the only way.
Maybe he hasn't revealed it to you but he has to others.. I was calling myself a Christian for nearly 20 years before I ever set foot inside an Orthodox church. Of course I'm not Orthodox yet, but hopefully you understand what I'm trying to say.
And I think you can be Orthodox and be an encouragement to people who aren't Orthodox at the same time. But to come here and discourage people from Orthodoxy is sort of conspicuous thing I think.
 

mikeforjesus

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No I don’t think He revealed even to you that definitely it is the only place where there is salvation. One can think so because the church fathers say so but if others convince others that the scripture does not teach for one group and they don’t want to join a church because a family member was not orthodox because others led them to believe it is not important and they shouldn’t judge and the beliefs are not perfectly right. They also could think it is not important and they could believe scripture teaches that how can they know for sure they need to be orthodox ? Especially Protestants who were encouraged to stay Protestant because others led them to believe it is better just as you say I should not discourage but how come I am saying God does not lead them to know for sure they must be orthodox if they are truly seeking to be saved by Jesus how can they possibly respond if others encourage them to be Protestant
I am not discouraging people from being orthodox they can be but I am entitled to my beliefs. If I think orthodox beliefs are not right I should not be teaching people have to be orthodox but they can be if they think they may need to. It is their choice to accept the faith or not like mine.
What do you say of people who have Alzheimer disease who never accepted the faith before. How can they accept the orthodox faith now ?
 
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mcarmichael

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No I don’t think He revealed even to you that definitely it is the only place where there is salvation. One can think so because the church fathers say so but if others convince others that the scripture does not teach for one group and they don’t want to join a church because a family member was not orthodox because others led them to believe it is not important and they shouldn’t judge and the beliefs are not perfectly right. They also could think it is not important and they could believe scripture teaches that how can they know for sure they need to be orthodox ? Especially Protestants who were encouraged to stay Protestant because others led them to believe it is better just as you say I should not discourage but how come I am saying God does not lead them to know for sure they must be orthodox if they are truly seeking to be saved by Jesus how can they possibly respond if others encourage them to be Protestant
I am not discouraging people from being orthodox they can be but I am entitled to my beliefs. If I think orthodox beliefs are not right I should not be teaching people have to be orthodox but they can be if they think they may need to. It is their choice to accept the faith or not like mine.
What do you say of people who have Alzheimer disease who never accepted the faith before. How can they accept the orthodox faith now ?
Mike I wasn't talking about myself there. I qualified everything I said with "I'm not Orthodox".
I don't really understand what you're worried about? You're not one of these people who says Paul's letters to St. Timothy are pseudepigraphal? Because these letters establish the basis of the episcopacy, right? Timothy is a missionary bishop, or something, established by the laying of hands, etc., yeah?
I mentioned that I've been calling myself a Christian for nearly 20 years, struggling with the fear of God all of 20 years almost. As a drunkard, as a druggie. Struggling for some escape from the horror of hell for even a brief moment. Anyway one tends to become fairly astute in the law regarding an offense one is charged with by the court, huh? For most of 20 years I found myself fully convinced of my eternal inheretance (hell), until I visited an Orthodox church. So don't think of it like a death sentence, take a full survey of the epsistemical (word?) evidence around you, and analyze it rationally. Do RCA but $5 says you say the Jesus prayer.
 

mikeforjesus

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Feelings could be an indication but are not facts.

people don’t get to heaven because they have become worthy because even the holiest saints fall short of the glory of God. The bible says salvation is not of works lest one should boast not that works are not important they are counted not as grace that is to get favour but debt that is it is one duty to be trying to do please the Lord but you can’t be perfect by yourself but you are made perfect by Jesus. Therefore God wanted to make it possible for those who strive for holiness to be justified and not to fear judgement if they feel they are not perfect as it is a misunderstanding one has to be perfect


The bible says are all apostles ? You can’t make all apostles by laying on of hands as it says it was given not only by laying on of hands but prophecy. God knew Timothy ability and that he had made progress in the spiritual life and that is the work of the church for elders with experience with agreement of church and who can see one who seems most suitable to lay their hands on them that is to choose them and pray for them to be able to have gifts for a certain mission in the church. Because not everyone should be allowed for the ministry and even if one lay hands on one it doesn’t mean they are gifted but Paul specially knew Timothy would be gifted by prophecy his knowledge it is up to God to anoint one. People are all allowed for certain missions but not everyone should have layed hands on if they don’t seem suitable God will give the gift only to those He knows by prophecy they will have ability to make good use of it. Not all can make themselves have the gift of teaching Paul said are all teachers meaning you can not make all teachers as God has a different calling for all

That is why some priests are more better at serving and praying then teaching.

Laying on of hands is done because you have to choose those who seem fit and the church prays for them to have gift but we do not know like Paul who is going to be gifted because Paul only knew through prophecy. Anyone who seeks that gift can be given that gift if person has ability because he will naturally seek prayers of the church if he is trying to be a pastor. But Paul encouraged Timothy to get that gift by seeking to help him get that gift. It is good for spiritual men to seek to impart gift to those who seem suitable.
 
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mcarmichael

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The bible says are all apostles ? You can’t make all apostles by laying on of hands as it says it was given not only by laying on of hands but prophecy.
Well it's very difficult to follow Christ when you are convinced that you are going to hell anyway. I could hardly even keep a job.

And the Bible says to follow Christ so that you will not be ashamed before Him at his return, in the letter to the Hebrews it says "...we are not those who turn back unto destruction but those with faith unto our salvation". So if you aren't following Christ you won't be saved. I may be an odd ball case but I don't remember them saying this at any of the Protestant churches.

Also the reason I was convinced that I already was condemned see Hebrews 6.
 

mikeforjesus

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I think if you think orthodoxy is maybe essential you can follow it and maybe you should if it is essential but I think it is not and it is better for me not to. One does not go to a church only if it is currently perfect because we are also the church. Salvation is something personal. You go to church to try to help bring others back to the correct path. For the only ones that need to hear that one needs to follow christ are those who are not following christ. But it could be us who could misjudge others relationship with christ if we misunderstand the gospel and what it means to follow christ if they are in fact following christ. But if we think they are not following the bible correctly we should teach according to our understanding but be open to correction.
 
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mikeforjesus

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I believe in saying it is impossible to renew those who fall away means if they don’t return of their will they can not be renewed and will not have salvation and Paul by saying it is impossible means it is impossible for them to come back and to have grace to repent without them themselves seeking to believe again to allow them to be renewed and it may require more effort because of abandoning Christ but if they find Him they are safe
 

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There is no sin not forgiven but the refusal to come to Christ and repent
 
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I believe in saying it is impossible to renew those who fall away means if they don’t return of their will they can not be renewed and will not have salvation and Paul by saying it is impossible means it is impossible for them to come back and to have grace to repent without them themselves seeking to believe again to allow them to be renewed and it may require more effort because of abandoning Christ but if they find Him they are safe
Okay but that's only your opinion. I got a lot of opinions over the years. BTW I don't find that reading very satisfactory but that's another topic.
 

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I think if you think orthodoxy is maybe essential you can follow it and maybe you should if it is essential but I think it is not and it is better for me not to. One does not go to a church only if it is currently perfect because we are also the church. Salvation is something personal. You go to church to try to help bring others back to the correct path. For the only ones that need to hear that one needs to follow christ are those who are not following christ. But it could be us who could misjudge others relationship with christ if we misunderstand the gospel and what it means to follow christ if they are in fact following christ. But if we think they are not following the bible correctly we should teach according to our understanding but be open to correction.
Okay, let's say that you're right. It still leaves the very uncomfortable existential paradox like thing where actually repenting and obeying God are works, which most Protestant have disavowed, doesn't it? How are you going to help anyone when you're so conflicted? (Not you individually, I mean.)
 
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mcarmichael

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The bible says are all apostles ? You can’t make all apostles by laying on of hands as it says it was given not only by laying on of hands but prophecy.
That's another thing Mike, I can't really just start laying hands on people and then they're a bishop, right? It's got to be a bishop who does it, right? These are just some of the things that have led to my interest in Orthodoxy, for your consideration hey?
 

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I have said my opinion you don’t have to accept it I could keep trying to explain but I won’t because I don’t think people here are open to considering it because they think it could be heresy and one can find reasons why he won’t believe it so there is no point. One does not have to believe me

one more time I will say the purpose of laying on of hands is to separate people who seem qualified it can not be done by one person but in the apostles time it could because Paul knew by prophecy the church prays for people to be servants to give them the Holy Spirit but only those who God has set them apart for such a thing will have it and be useful servants
 
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Tzimis

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An opinion only exists if others validate it. That in itself forms a group. That group than has a label. The label in this case is Protestant.
It becomes a competing idea but, only one idea can be correct.
You know the muslims? They tried to squash out ideas by force. The theory behind that was, if they could eliminate an ideology by force, then all that will be left is Islam. The good news is that the protestants didn't succeed with force either.
The bottom line is that there is only one truth.
 

mikeforjesus

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An opinion only exists if others validate it. That in itself forms a group. That group than has a label. The label in this case is Protestant.
It becomes a competing idea but, only one idea can be correct.
You know the muslims? They tried to squash out ideas by force. The theory behind that was, if they could eliminate an ideology by force, then all that will be left is Islam. The good news is that the protestants didn't succeed with force either.
The bottom line is that there is only one truth.
If you think the true Protestant faith judges other Christians who belong to churches then you can be glad it is not victorious but it is wrong to be happy if the Protestant faith is not victorious if it is in fact true and able to save also because you should want others to be saved too
 

mikeforjesus

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Did you ever think about writing a book?
Yes but I never pursued it as I thought I can share what I learn online and did not know yet if that is one of my main callings because God may give me some knowledge to live out my faith and share what I learn but I don’t know if it could be one of my main gifts or talent so that I should put much attention to it but if it is I should pursue it
 
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Tzimis

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I wish tonights chicken diner can be saved. Yet, I realize that some things need to be scrificed in order for others to live.
 
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