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only 62% of the greek new testament can be recompiled from the variant manuscripts

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muskogee22

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When discussing the numerical superiority and ancientness of the New Testament manuscripts, the missionaries' blunders become apparent when their conclusions are evaluated by examining the various methodologies for reconstructing the Greek New Testament and how these competing methodologies understand and use external (i.e., manuscript) evidence. Contrary to missionary and apologetical claims, nowhere in these reconstructive methodologies can we observe an axiomatic principle whereby the numerical amount of Greek manuscripts function in a manner that automatically allows us to have a greater degree of confidence in the reliability or trustworthiness of the resultant New Testament text. In fact, the claims made by the missionaries show similarity with the reconstructive methodology with a preference for the Byzantine text-form. These advocates of the "Majority" text appeal to the numerical superiority of the Byzantine text-form among the Greek manuscripts whilst simultaneously claiming this text-type represents more closely the "original" text. Unfortunately for the missionaries and apologists, this form of scholarship has been rejected by the vast majority of textual critics who as early as the 1880's in the form of the two Cambridge scholars Westcott and Hort, recognised the corrupt, secondary nature of these texts.[109]

We have seen misquoted claims, misrepresented claims, incorrect claims, fraudulent claims and even claims that are mathematically impossible. None of these fantastic claims (normally in the form of percentages) show the procedure utilised to arrive at such magnificent figures. We can see that the modern day textual critics portray a very different set of statistics quite contrary to the over-hyped claims of the missionaries and apologists. The Alands, discussing the differences between seven popular critical editions of the New Testament, excluding orthographic differences and differences of only one word, calculate that 62.9% of the verses of the entire New Testament are in agreement with each other. Similarly, if we look at the statistics for the gospels, we find that there is a 54.5% agreement. If we look at the textual "certainty" of the United Bible Societies' The Greek New Testament, a text which is based on the decisions of a committee, the result is close to 83.5%. There is no mention of 99.5%, 99.8% or 99.9% agreement here. In a twist of irony further compounding the foolishness of the missionaries' and apologists' position, the Bibles they use (normally the NIV version) are based on the very same critical editions of the New Testament by the very same people who have calculated the above percentages!

The final call of the missionaries and apologists, when their attempts to over-hype the Greek manuscripts bear no fruit, is to appeal to the fact that the entire Greek New Testament can be reconstructed using only the Patristic quotations, without recourse to any other additional manuscript evidence. While it is certainly true that some modern day textual critics, including Metzger mention that such a circumstance is theoretically possible, we rarely find the missionaries and apologists discussing the numerous problems associated with this statement.[110] In any case, what role do the Patristic citations play in today's critical editions of the New Testament? They play no more than a 'supplementary and corroborative' role, particularly in passages where the primary evidence (i.e., Greek manuscripts) is insufficient to reconstruct the text with absolute certainty. Indeed, if we examine the evidential selection principles behind the recently released Novum Testamentum Graecum Editio Critica Maior, it becomes apparent that readings with exclusively Patristic support struggle to make it into the critical apparatus, let alone ever being considered as an actual verse of the Greek New Testament.

Going hand in hand with the claims of numerical superiority are those claims of 'ancientness'. The manuscripts are "very old" we are told. The missionaries and apologists point towards numerous 1st century Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts for several books of the New Testament including Mark, I Timothy, James, Acts, Romans and II Peter. Also, fragments according to the Gospel of Matthew can be redated to "c. A.D. 66". Certainly one could arrive at these conclusions if the relevant newspaper articles and soundbites are collated. However, one can arrive at quite different conclusions if the opinions of New Testament textual scholars, including Baillet, Benoit, Fee, Hemer, Roberts, Aland and others are taken into consideration, as they conclusively refute these grossly inaccurate and yet popular claims. Indeed, when we compare the earliest known manuscript evidence for the twenty-seven books of the New Testament to their respective estimated dates of composition, we do not find the difference so small as to be "negligible". In fact, we can observe that several books of the New Testament find no manuscript support until the 4th century CE! Also, when we examine the palaeographic features of the entire spectrum of Greek New Testament manuscripts, the overwhelming majority utilise a form of handwriting termed minuscule. This form of handwriting started to be used in the 9th century and became widespread by the 11th century. How one can make claims of 'ancientness' when only 6% of the more than 5,000 or so Greek New Testament manuscripts date from before the 9th century, some 800 years after the birth of Jesus, points towards a desperate state of affairs.

Amphoux and Vaganay, referring to the "eternal, inerrant, infallible, unchangeable word of God" as represented by the 26th edition of Nestle-Aland's Novum Testamentum Graece, aptly summarise the textual evidence:

The concern not to trouble simple minds with an uncertain or reworked text is no doubt a laudable one, but is it right to alter history? For what is implied to be the original text is in fact probably a text established in Egypt around the year AD 200, doubtless with some earlier readings but also some innovations,...
 

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Yes, religions oftentimes do have these problems... ;)

 

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Yes, religions oftentimes do have these problems... ;)

I have studied this well and i know the Qu'ran is acurrate as islamic-awareness.org has many articles showing to people like you.but you are switching the topic .this isn't about the Quran.both the quran and NT could be inaccurate.but we know for sure that the NT is inacuratte.
 

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Well, if an internet website tells you it never changed, far be it from me to ever question it. :p

Here's a more serious answer. Yes, we don't have the exact words that were written by the authors. Unfortunately, the apostles did not put their writings on flash drives and hide them in the desert for us to find later. If Muslims were going to be honest with themselves, they would acknowledge the same. Like Islam, we do have a number of different manuscripts that, while they have differences, most of the differences are very small. Overwhelmingly, even by writers who were opposed to Christianity, they acknowledge that early Christians viewed Christ as some sort of a deity and the Christians engaged in secret rituals where they ate the flesh and drank the blood of Christ. It was considered abhorrent by the Romans who viewed it as cannibalism and profane to eat your deity. You can say that there are errors. That doesn't really bother us as we don't believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. The question is, do we have enough information to stay true to the teachings of Christ and his Apostles? The answer to that is most certainly yes.
 

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These arguments are borderline brain-dead. Of course the vast majority of manuscripts are in minuscule, this is true of almost every text we have that survives in the manuscript tradition from antiquity, be it the plays of Aristophanes or the texts of Aristotle. Similarly, the vast majority of Qur'anic texts have i'jam and harakat. So what?
 
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The succession to the prophet of Islam involved murders if I recall so that probably had an adverse effect as to what the prophet said or what he is said to have said.

The New Testament speaks for itself just on the basis of the Lord’s Gospel & the testimonies of His apostles . It is true, compassionate, necessary, fair, compelling & practical that could only be of God.
 
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I have studied this well and i know the Qu'ran is acurrate as islamic-awareness.org has many articles showing to people like you.but you are switching the topic .this isn't about the Quran.both the quran and NT could be inaccurate.but we know for sure that the NT is inacuratte.
"WE" do not know that.... only YOU assume that and site sources that support your assumption. Furthermore, our Faith is not solely based on the written Word... we go far deeper than what has ever been written down on paper.

muskogee22, you've been posting actively here for the last week... and it is great to see you and have you on this Forum.
What saddens me is that it seems your only purpose is to try to convince us that Orthodoxy is wrong, and Christ is not God, and God is not God, and books are inaccurate, and our Faith is lacking.

I wish instead that you would take some time to learn from us, about us... and not simply pull your understanding of Orthodoxy from biased internet sites.

You are so busy trying to convince yourself that we are wrong, that you are completely missing the truth.

Slow down, and try to be unbiased and open.

Christ is not a threat to you.
 

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In Christianity, God's revelation to humankind isn't a book, it's His incarnate Son, Jesus Christ. The New Testament is the Church's account of Christ's life, death and resurrection and is sacred to us for this reason, but the text is secondary to both the Church that Christ established and, especially, the actual events of Christ's life.

Islam is very different, because God's revelation is supposed to be a text. So the many textual (to say nothing of interpretive) problems with the transmission of the Qur'an are very different (and much more serious) problem for Islamic truth-claims, arguably a fatal one on Islam's own terms.

Moreover, wouldn't your criticisms of trinitarianism as not sufficiently monotheistic also apply to the Muslim belief that the Qur'an is uncreated and eternal?
 

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Come on, @muskogee22 . You were Christian like maybe two weeks ago or something. You really know that our religion is not based on books but on Jesus Christ. Does Shadadah cause dementia?
 

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the issue is that the cruci-fiction and alleged ressurection(both wich have contradictions in the narratives) are not reliable if the text is not reliable.
nowhere in the gospel does Jesus say he is God.christian Nicene theology is a later development,a creation of men and it is polytheism.
 

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If you say the sky is purple, do you think it will change colors?
 

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the issue is that the cruci-fiction and alleged ressurection(both wich have contradictions in the narratives) are not reliable if the text is not reliable.
nowhere in the gospel does Jesus say he is God.christian Nicene theology is a later development,a creation of men and it is polytheism.
John 10:30-33

30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

I suppose you'll explain this away by saying the NT has been tampered with? How convenient...
 

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I love that verse.
 

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John 10:30-33

30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

I suppose you'll explain this away by saying the NT has been tampered with? How convenient...
why don't you quote all of that text?you would have seen jesus said all of ye are gods.god just means authority even moses is called a god in OT.
 

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why don't you quote all of that text?you would have seen jesus said all of ye are gods.god just means authority even moses is called a god in OT.
....if we keep reading as you said, we see this in line 38.
" even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
 

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you haven't read all of it I see
So in order for me to legitimately love something, I have to hold the same view of it as you? That is a sickening level of hubris right there. Do they teach that in Islam? 🧐
 

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why don't you quote all of that text?you would have seen jesus said all of ye are gods.god just means authority even moses is called a god in OT.
Really? If you are making the argument that Jesus is a "god" just like Moses is a "god", then why does Jesus say that He alone is set apart as the Father's very own and sent into the world? He claims that he is entitled to the title of God's Son because He is the one who the Father set apart and sent into the world. If that is just a term for any old prophet that God sends, why doesn't Muhammad make the claim that he is God's Son?

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”?
35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?
37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.
38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
 

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Really? If you are making the argument that Jesus is a "god" just like Moses is a "god", then why does Jesus say that He alone is set apart as the Father's very own and sent into the world? He claims that he is entitled to the title of God's Son because He is the one who the Father set apart and sent into the world. If that is just a term for any old prophet that God sends, why doesn't Muhammad make the claim that he is God's Son?

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”?
35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?
37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.
38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
yes,he was set apart and sent into the World.he can metaphorically speaking be called God's son like all messengers(notice the difference between messengers and mere prophets).

I am not responding to posts discussing islam,its offtopic.
 

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I am not responding to posts discussing islam,its offtopic.
You can attempt to undermine our Faith across multiple threads, but we can't question yours? 🤔
But my one comment was a bit too low, please forgive me for that.
 

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yes,he was set apart and sent into the World.he can metaphorically speaking be called God's son like all messengers(notice the difference between messengers and mere prophets).

I am not responding to posts discussing islam,its offtopic.
If all Jesus was saying was that He is a messenger just like Moses, why did the religious leaders repeatedly accuse him of and eventually kill Him for blasphemy? That seems like a pretty easy thing to clear up. Jesus would just need to say "No, no, you are misunderstanding me. I would never claim to be God, I'm just God's messenger!" No one was confused about what Muhammad or Moses claimed to be. Everyone around them understood that they claimed to be messengers from God. Was Jesus just really bad at explaining who He was?

As to your last statement, I'm not discussing Islam, I'm comparing Jesus, who you allege was just a messenger, to other persons who you allege were just messengers. If these three were messengers, they would all three be very clear about who they were in relationship to God. No one was confused who Moses claimed he was in relationship to God. No one was confused who Muhammad claimed he was in relationship to God, but quite a few people seemed to believe that Jesus was professing Himself to be God. I wonder how they might have come to that conclusion? Further, how could Jesus be considered a messenger if absolutely no one understood what His message was? People seemed to understand Moses' message. They understood Muhammad's message. Why, if Jesus was sent by God, did no one understand His message? Obviously immediately after His death, all His followers were worshipping Him as God. Even the pagans such as Pliny the Younger in the first century comment on the fact that Christians were worshipping Christ as God and refusing to worship the Roman gods.
 

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So.... let's play your game, muskogee...

How many prophets/gods have walked on water?
How many have stilled storms?
How many have raised the dead AFTER the 3 day mark?
How many have given sight to the blind, and straightened deformed limbs?
When standing among a crowd of people... how many had the heavens open and God proclaim "this is My Son"?
How many who, having accomplished the above, have millions of adherents today?
How many have promised to be "with you until the end of time"?
How many themselves were resurrected from the dead?
How many still appear to people today?
How many have answered your prayers?
 

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So.... let's play your game, muskogee...

How many prophets/gods have walked on water?
How many have stilled storms?
How many have raised the dead AFTER the 3 day mark?
How many have given sight to the blind, and straightened deformed limbs?
When standing among a crowd of people... how many had the heavens open and God proclaim "this is My Son"?
How many who, having accomplished the above, have millions of adherents today?
How many have promised to be "with you until the end of time"?
How many themselves were resurrected from the dead?
How many still appear to people today?
How many have answered your prayers?
You dont even need to be a prophet to do that.sufi saints have done the same things,like abdulqadir Al jilani or shaykh alhaqqani of recent memory.with Allah's permission Jesus raised the dead.even magicians can walk on water.
 

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I dont believe Jesus ever died or was raised from the dead.the story has too many contradictions in it.
 

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By that logic Muhammed is surely a true prophet because he performed many miracles and gave alot of accurate predictions about the far off future.actually all of the minor signs of qiyamah except one(the Euphrates drying up Wich is happening now with turkeys dam) has been fulfilled.
 

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Also even mujahedeen perform miracles in battle as is shown in the book signs of arrahman by abdullah Al azzam.https://islamfuture.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/the-signs-of-ar-rahman-in-the-jihad-of-afghanistan/



Even isis reports miracles in battle.like angels assisting them or fighting for them when outnumbered just like the afghan mujahedeen.


I even know of a mujahid in Bosnian Serbian war that was raised from the dead by Allah and reports his experience in the Islamic paradise
 
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And even demons raise the dead in new age and Buddhist ndes where people are dead for up to 5 days like dawa drolma.shaykh haqqani raised the dead too.miracles aren't proof of anything.even heterics have miracles of regrown limbs etc
 

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If christian miracles are proof of it's veracity then islam can make similar claims .here's angels caught on camera saving a muslima who called on Allah to save her

Also the Taliban report miracles of angels fighting for them in battle when outnumbered and having no more ammunition etc
 

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Also the Taliban report miracles of angels fighting for them in battle when outnumbered and having no more ammunition etc
Seriously?
 

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That bus was nowhere near her and traveling at less than 5mph. Thats a drama queen.
She actually created the sudden response from the bus driver because she veered into the middle of the street.
 

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Yes,seriously .since Muhammed time there have been three miracles associated with shaheeds.the enduring fragrance rayhan and growing of a full beard in a day and incorruptible bodies for years .still this miracle happens to all shaheeds.

And there are many muslims that have died and reported the Islamic paradise.

Furthermore angels do assist the mujahedeen in battle as is found in many books even up to this day.
 

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And Muhammed gave many accurate predictions about qiyamah and all the minor signs except one have been fulfilled.
 

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You're brain washed or you met a pretty suni girl. If its the latter than that is a difficult road.
 

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It's kind one thing to be trolling a forum using bad theology and random websites, and a whole other thing to be supporting the Taliban....
The Taliban rule by hanafi islamic fiqh and shariah.their deobandi aqeedah is deficient even if they claim to be maturidis.but they also defend the Muslims from the crusaders and those that seek to wipe out Islamic law from being practiced in favor of man's law and secular feminism and progressive LGBT etc
So I do not support them all the way due to their deobandi aqeedah but I do support any Muslim over the infidel .to take a infidel as a wali is to be a kafir .and to vote or rule by secular law is also kufr.
 

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You're brain washed or you met a pretty suni girl. If its the latter than that is a difficult road.
I have not met any sunni girl lol!I am Muslim for theological reasons.only islam has a robust concept of tawheed.even Jewish kabbalah is polytheistic .
 

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The Taliban rule by hanafi islamic fiqh and shariah.their deobandi aqeedah is deficient even if they claim to be maturidis.but they also defend the Muslims from the crusaders and those that seek to wipe out Islamic law from being practiced in favor of man's law and secular feminism and progressive LGBT etc
So I do not support them all the way due to their deobandi aqeedah but I do support any Muslim over the infidel .to take a infidel as a wali is to be a kafir .and to vote or rule by secular law is also kufr.
Right, see... you've kind of showed the danger of dabbling in Islam. One moment you're trying to convince people of a philosophically incoherent notion of 'tawheed', the next minute you reveal yourself to be a jihadi. I hope your country's security services find you.
 
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