OO Eucharistic Practices and EO-OO Reunion

Severian

Taxiarches
Joined
Jul 4, 2011
Messages
6,642
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Website
www.lsocs.co.uk
I am putting this here under the assumption it will not turn polemical. Would various OO Eucharistic practices hinder reunion? For example, Copts separating the body and blood (which is the older practice, btw), we also adore the body and blood in the Liturgy. Also, the Armenian use of unleavened bread, which AFAIK defies certain EO canons.

Discuss!
 

Alpo

Merarches
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
Messages
9,878
Reaction score
0
Points
0
IMO use of unleavened bread is an issue but other than that I don't think non-Byzantine practices will cause any problem once people get used to the idea that there's more to Orthodoxy than Constantinopole and Moscow.
 

Alpo

Merarches
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
Messages
9,878
Reaction score
0
Points
0
primuspilus said:
The only issue I'd have is the adoration. I just feel that the Eucharist is for eating.

PP
Byzantine churches adore Eucharist too. It's done during pre-sanctified liturgies.
 

HabteSelassie

Archon
Joined
Nov 2, 2010
Messages
3,314
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Los Angeles
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I would think, that aside from the Byzantine mixing, that the Eucharist practices are what can unite us most, however, at the same time, it is precisely over mutual reception of the Eucharist in which we are currently divided, and so perhaps it is equally the crux of reunion.  The Holy Communion is what makes us One Body, and so it is not surprising that the tangible symbol of our divisions is Excommunication :(

Whenever I am blessed to receive the Holy Communion, I pray earnestly for reunion and for the sanctity of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church in the Lord, even if the hands and feet are not getting along so well.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
 

Severian

Taxiarches
Joined
Jul 4, 2011
Messages
6,642
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Website
www.lsocs.co.uk
Alpo said:
primuspilus said:
The only issue I'd have is the adoration. I just feel that the Eucharist is for eating.

PP
Byzantine churches adore Eucharist too. It's done during pre-sanctified liturgies.
Do you mind posting the text of this adoration?
 

dzheremi

Protokentarchos
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
Messages
4,417
Reaction score
0
Points
0
primuspilus said:
The only issue I'd have is the adoration. I just feel that the Eucharist is for eating.

PP
So do we. Severian should have qualified that statement, as it is not Roman Catholic style adoration with separating the Eucharist from the service and putting it into a monstrance or whatever (that wouldn't even work, as we use leavened bread, same as the EO). I would post a picture to demonstrate our proper adoration in a liturgical context, but last time I did Habte became upset. Let's just say it involves prostration before and affirmation of the reality of the gifts (that they are truly the Body and Blood of Christ) as part of preparation to receive during the same liturgy. 

Unless, of course, Severian had some other activity in mind, in which case I don't know about it.
 

Severian

Taxiarches
Joined
Jul 4, 2011
Messages
6,642
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Website
www.lsocs.co.uk
dzheremi said:
Severian should have qualified that statement, as it is not Roman Catholic style adoration with separating the Eucharist from the service and putting it into a monstrance
Which is exactly why I said: "we also adore the body and blood in the Liturgy." I never said or implied that we separate the Eucharist from the Liturgy/service.

"We worship Your holy body[...] and your precious blood." -Intro to the Fraction

http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/index.php?a=view&id=2051

Here's to give you all an idea as to what it looks like:

 

dzheremi

Protokentarchos
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
Messages
4,417
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Hahaha. That's the exact picture I posted before that upset Habte. Oh well.

Sorry, Severian, for not catching the "in the liturgy" part. Now that you point that out, I don't understand PP's objection at all. Also, I didn't mean to imply that you had written that the adoration is outside of the liturgy. That bit of explanation was for PP's benefit, as I think there is a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of Eucharistic adoration that associates it with only the Roman Catholics, so it bears explaining that when we talk about it as Orthodox people, we don't mean at all what the Latins mean.
 

Severian

Taxiarches
Joined
Jul 4, 2011
Messages
6,642
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Website
www.lsocs.co.uk
dzheremi said:
Hahaha. That's the exact picture I posted before that upset Habte. Oh well.

Sorry, Severian, for not catching the "in the liturgy" part. Now that you point that out, I don't understand PP's objection at all.
No problem.
 

witega

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
1,617
Reaction score
0
Points
0
dzheremi said:
Hahaha. That's the exact picture I posted before that upset Habte. Oh well.

Sorry, Severian, for not catching the "in the liturgy" part. Now that you point that out, I don't understand PP's objection at all.
I presume pp also missed the 'in the liturgy part' and made the assumption Severian was talking about something like RC adoration services. What you and Severian describe is no different from what EO's do so obviously wouldn't be a problem for reunion.
 

Severian

Taxiarches
Joined
Jul 4, 2011
Messages
6,642
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Website
www.lsocs.co.uk
^Thanks. What about the Armenian use of unleavened bread?

PS- @Witega Who is the Saint in your avatar?
 

Aristocles

Merarches
Joined
Apr 23, 2003
Messages
10,031
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Pittsburgh
Alpo said:
IMO use of unleavened bread is an issue but other than that I don't think non-Byzantine practices will cause any problem once people get used to the idea that there's more to Orthodoxy than Constantinopole and Moscow.
Especially if one reads the canons.
 

HabteSelassie

Archon
Joined
Nov 2, 2010
Messages
3,314
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Los Angeles
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

dzheremi said:
Hahaha. That's the exact picture I posted before that upset Habte. Oh well.
I didn't upset me, it just makes me uncomfortable.  However, I post images that equally make some folks uncomfortable, so its all fair game so long as our intentions are not just to offend. In the Ethiopian tradition we have many icons which  are not accepted in the Byzantine Church, and so I admit I've also posted these and others which are offensive to some folks here, and for that I do humbly apologize.

In Ethiopian tradition, that photograph would be sacrilege, but I can respect our sister jurisdictions Traditions :)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
 

Jonathan

High Elder
Joined
May 8, 2003
Messages
959
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
39
Location
ON, Canada
HabteSelassie said:
In Ethiopian tradition, that photograph would be sacrilege, but I can respect our sister jurisdictions Traditions :)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Just out of curiosity, why? Is there a link to a previous thread where this was discussed?
 

HabteSelassie

Archon
Joined
Nov 2, 2010
Messages
3,314
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Los Angeles
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Jonathan said:
HabteSelassie said:
In Ethiopian tradition, that photograph would be sacrilege, but I can respect our sister jurisdictions Traditions :)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Just out of curiosity, why? Is there a link to a previous thread where this was discussed?
Well, technically if a priest or deacon took the picture it would be good and legal (that picture is from inside the altar and only ordained clergy can do inside), however culturally it would be considered in terribly poor taste.  It is impolite even just to talk about the details of Holy Communion, let alone to have that photograph of the priests' celebration.  Some people take photographs of their babies first Communion, but I understand that photograph was of when the priests were about to take Holy Communion. In the Ethiopia Church this is when the curtain is closed and the view to Altar blocked.  It isn't opened again until the Communion is brought out for the people.  If we close the curtain, it is for a reason, and to take a picture of what is happening behind the closed curtain would be the same error as peaking inside, which of course would be so sacrilegious that I'm not quite sure anyone would even try it ;)



stay blessed,
habte selassie
 

Nephi

Protokentarchos
Joined
Apr 18, 2011
Messages
4,829
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
29
HabteSelassie said:
In the Ethiopia Church this is when the curtain is closed and the view to Altar blocked.  It isn't opened again until the Communion is brought out for the people.  If we close the curtain, it is for a reason, and to take a picture of what is happening behind the closed curtain would be the same error as peaking inside, which of course would be so sacrilegious that I'm not quite sure anyone would even try it ;)
Just curious. Do all OO churches close off the altar for parts of the Liturgy, or does this vary?
 

FatherHLL

Archon
Joined
Sep 18, 2008
Messages
2,680
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Severian said:
I am putting this here under the assumption it will not turn polemical. Would various OO Eucharistic practices hinder reunion? For example, Copts separating the body and blood (which is the older practice, btw), we also adore the body and blood in the Liturgy. Also, the Armenian use of unleavened bread, which AFAIK defies certain EO canons.

Discuss!
1.  "EO" offer distinct body and blood when celebrating Liturgy of St. James
2.  "EO" adore the Body and Blood in Liturgy
3.  Azymes a bit more sticky, but possible to work through imo
 

Alpo

Merarches
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
Messages
9,878
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Severian said:
Alpo said:
primuspilus said:
The only issue I'd have is the adoration. I just feel that the Eucharist is for eating.

PP
Byzantine churches adore Eucharist too. It's done during pre-sanctified liturgies.
Do you mind posting the text of this adoration?
There is no text except "The Light of Christ shines for all". A priest walks walks around the nave with with a Chalice in his hands and IIRC with his head covered while people prostrate to the ground until the priests returns to the altar. Technically speaking people won't even look at the priest nor the chalice since they are to prostrate the whole time.
 

Jonathan

High Elder
Joined
May 8, 2003
Messages
959
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
39
Location
ON, Canada
HabteSelassie said:
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Jonathan said:
HabteSelassie said:
In Ethiopian tradition, that photograph would be sacrilege, but I can respect our sister jurisdictions Traditions :)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Just out of curiosity, why? Is there a link to a previous thread where this was discussed?
Well, technically if a priest or deacon took the picture it would be good and legal (that picture is from inside the altar and only ordained clergy can do inside), however culturally it would be considered in terribly poor taste.  It is impolite even just to talk about the details of Holy Communion, let alone to have that photograph of the priests' celebration.  Some people take photographs of their babies first Communion, but I understand that photograph was of when the priests were about to take Holy Communion. In the Ethiopia Church this is when the curtain is closed and the view to Altar blocked.  It isn't opened again until the Communion is brought out for the people.  If we close the curtain, it is for a reason, and to take a picture of what is happening behind the closed curtain would be the same error as peaking inside, which of course would be so sacrilegious that I'm not quite sure anyone would even try it ;)



stay blessed,
habte selassie
Ah, sorry, I misunderstood you. I thought you meant kneeling was sacrilege, so I was confused. I agree that photos of the anaphora and people communing are not the norm.
 

Severian

Taxiarches
Joined
Jul 4, 2011
Messages
6,642
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Website
www.lsocs.co.uk
FatherHLL said:
Severian said:
I am putting this here under the assumption it will not turn polemical. Would various OO Eucharistic practices hinder reunion? For example, Copts separating the body and blood (which is the older practice, btw), we also adore the body and blood in the Liturgy. Also, the Armenian use of unleavened bread, which AFAIK defies certain EO canons.

Discuss!
1.  "EO" offer distinct body and blood when celebrating Liturgy of St. James
The Antiochian parish I attended years ago also separated the two, oddly enough.
 

NicholasMyra

Merarches
Joined
Sep 19, 2010
Messages
8,838
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
hyperdoxherman.tumblr.com
Severian said:
For example, Copts separating the body and blood (which is the older practice, btw), we also adore the body and blood in the Liturgy.
Those would not be a problem.

The Armenian unleavened bread would cause a ruckus.
 

Salpy

Toumarches
Joined
Jan 15, 2005
Messages
14,492
Reaction score
0
Points
0
NicholasMyra said:
The Armenian unleavened bread would cause a ruckus.
It probably would be a problem for the EO's, which I think is too bad.  Again, this is something that underscores the greater tolerance for diversity in practice among the OO's.

The use of unleavened bread in the Armenian Church is ancient and predates Chalcedon, and it was not a problem for anyone before the schism. 

http://www.svots.edu/content/beyond-dialogue-quest-eastern-and-oriental-orthodox-unity-today

1700 years ago, this sort of diversity was the norm throughout the Christian world.  Perhaps someday it will be again.  :)
 

HabteSelassie

Archon
Joined
Nov 2, 2010
Messages
3,314
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Los Angeles
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Salpy said:
NicholasMyra said:
The Armenian unleavened bread would cause a ruckus.
It probably would be a problem for the EO's, which I think is too bad.  Again, this is something that underscores the greater tolerance for diversity in practice among the OO's.

The use of unleavened bread in the Armenian Church is ancient and predates Chalcedon, and it was not a problem for anyone before the schism. 

http://www.svots.edu/content/beyond-dialogue-quest-eastern-and-oriental-orthodox-unity-today

1700 years ago, this sort of diversity was the norm throughout the Christian world.  Perhaps someday it will be again.   :)
True, very interesting point. Eucharistic diversity was more tolerated back in the day, it seems that the first schisms began a downward spiral of anathemas and canons seeming to mutually target each other so.  In the Oriental Orthodox communion, the sister churches seem to maintain this more flexible theology as was more the norm in the earlier days of Christianity.  If we held it together with such minor distinctions before, by Grace we can surely come together again inevitably.  Indeed, the current union between the sister jurisdiction of Oriental Orthodox is a good example of how in practice this can happen, and our inter-faith fellowship both through the Mysteries and through clergy organization is a model for Reunion between Oriental and Byzantine, indeed even perhaps bringing back in the Latins too  :angel:

stay blessed,
habte selassie
 

Shant

Newbie
Joined
Aug 15, 2011
Messages
22
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
51
Nephi said:
Just curious. Do all OO churches close off the altar for parts of the Liturgy, or does this vary?
We do likewise during the offering of the gifts by the deacon (which occurs quite early in the Divine Liturgy) as well as when the priest communes.

All this talk of unleavened bread and no one has brought up the fact that we use wine that is not mixed with water.  :eek:
 

Severian

Taxiarches
Joined
Jul 4, 2011
Messages
6,642
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Website
www.lsocs.co.uk
Shant said:
Nephi said:
Just curious. Do all OO churches close off the altar for parts of the Liturgy, or does this vary?
We do likewise during the offering of the gifts by the deacon (which occurs quite early in the Divine Liturgy) as well as when the priest communes.

All this talk of unleavened bread and no one has brought up the fact that we use wine that is not mixed with water.  :eek:
 

zekarja

High Elder
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
747
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Shant said:
Nephi said:
Just curious. Do all OO churches close off the altar for parts of the Liturgy, or does this vary?
We do likewise during the offering of the gifts by the deacon (which occurs quite early in the Divine Liturgy) as well as when the priest communes.

All this talk of unleavened bread and no one has brought up the fact that we use wine that is not mixed with water.  :eek:
The water (called the fervor of the saints) is added to the Cup after the consecration (Institution Narrative and Epiclesis) in the Byzantine Liturgy. Perhaps EOs would find it Theologically wrong not to add the water? I imagine that, even without the water added, that which is in the Cup would still be revered as Christ's Blood. :)

In Christ,
zekarja
 

sheenj

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Jan 31, 2012
Messages
1,429
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
28
Nephi said:
Just curious. Do all OO churches close off the altar for parts of the Liturgy, or does this vary?
In West Syrian tradition, the altar curtain is closed during the fraction and comixture. This takes place after the Diptychs and before the Elevation of the Holy Mysteries.
 

Nephi

Protokentarchos
Joined
Apr 18, 2011
Messages
4,829
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
29
Thanks for the responses. My EO church does not close the altar off during a normal Liturgy, but I have been to an EO church that does so maybe it's my church that's out of the norm. ???
 

kijabeboy03

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
1,084
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I don't know what the historic practice of the Byzantine Orthodox churches in Anatolia/Syria was, but in older Russian Orthodox practice the curtain's closed almost as much as it's open. It's more moderated in many parishes though, with symbolic tie-ins to the life of Christ.

Nephi said:
Thanks for the responses. My EO church does not close the altar off during a normal Liturgy, but I have been to an EO church that does so maybe it's my church that's out of the norm. ???
 

Salpy

Toumarches
Joined
Jan 15, 2005
Messages
14,492
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I'm bumping this thread because a question came up elsewhere about OO Eucharistic practices:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,47145.msg984622.html#msg984622
 

kijabeboy03

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
1,084
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Alpo said:
Severian said:
Alpo said:
primuspilus said:
The only issue I'd have is the adoration. I just feel that the Eucharist is for eating.

PP
Byzantine churches adore Eucharist too. It's done during pre-sanctified liturgies.
Do you mind posting the text of this adoration?
There is no text except "The Light of Christ shines for all". A priest walks walks around the nave with with a Chalice in his hands and IIRC with his head covered while people prostrate to the ground until the priests returns to the altar. Technically speaking people won't even look at the priest nor the chalice since they are to prostrate the whole time.
And in many Byzantine Orthodox churches people kneel or prostrate at the consecration and again when the chalice is presented immediately before communion, though the former is perhaps more a Greek custom and the latter more Romanian (?) from what little I've seen.
 

Orthodox11

Archon
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
2,994
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Apart from the use of unleavened bread by the Armenians, I can't think of anything relating to the Eucharist that would be problematic.

Other liturgical practices would probably be problematic though, such as allowing readers and chanters to serve as deacons, the use of drums and cymbals (I realise organs are common in the GOARCH in America, but this is a local aberration discouraged by the Patriarchate, while in Coptic/Tewahedo practice the use of percussion is universal), 'dance' and clapping, etc.

I don't necessarily think these should be obstacles to reunion, but they might be.
 

Jonathan

High Elder
Joined
May 8, 2003
Messages
959
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
39
Location
ON, Canada
Orthodox11 said:
Apart from the use of unleavened bread by the Armenians, I can't think of anything relating to the Eucharist that would be problematic.

Other liturgical practices would probably be problematic though, such as allowing readers and chanters to serve as deacons, the use of drums and cymbals (I realise organs are common in the GOARCH in America, but this is a local aberration discouraged by the Patriarchate, while in Coptic/Tewahedo practice the use of percussion is universal), 'dance' and clapping, etc.

I don't necessarily think these should be obstacles to reunion, but they might be.
Allowing readers and chanters to serve as deacons is problematic, so it's good if you force us into realizing that :)

The cymbals and triangles are not supposed to be played as enthusiastically as they usually are. It should be very quiet and subdued, as a timekeeping mechanism, not the way it is where it is often quite complex and at the forefront. I would have absolutely no objection to losing them, I like it better without. But I think it would be awfully nit-picky to refuse to be in Communion over that.

The liturgical dance and drums of the Ethiopians takes place before or after the Liturgy, not during. There's really nothing wrong with it. I would think a bigger obstacle would be EO belly dance and yoga classes after the Liturgy in the church hall.
 

Mor Ephrem

Hypatos
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 3, 2002
Messages
36,149
Reaction score
16
Points
38
Age
39
Location
New York!
Website
www.orthodoxchristianity.net
Jonathan said:
Allowing readers and chanters to serve as deacons is problematic, so it's good if you force us into realizing that :)
Eh.  That presupposes that there is a distinct function that deacons exercise that the lower clergy are not supposed to exercise but they do so anyway.  Is that really happening?  And is there a common agreement on what belongs to the deacon and what does not?  There are certain things on which we all seem to agree, but others that vary depending on the tradition.

In the Syriac tradition, the distinct ministry of the deacon in the Liturgy is the reading of the Gospel and the distribution of Holy Communion (if needed and with the blessing of the celebrant).  No subdeacons, readers, or chanters do that, and typically deacons don't do these things either (even the Gospel).  But if there is no deacon (or even if there is, again, as the celebrant directs), a minor cleric(s) will read the diptychs/litanies, use the liturgical fans, and one among these ranks will cense during the Liturgy (incense is always and only offered by the priest because it is his duty to offer sacrifices, but he will bless the minor cleric to do the actual censing except during those moments the rubrics specifically direct the priest to do so).  Outside of the Liturgy, the deacons have other duties proper to their order which the lower clerics do not do. 

Now, this is different from Byzantine tradition.  Deacons will read the Gospel and assist with Communion as needed, but typically censing and litanies are also reserved for them.  Since the fans are given to them at their ordinations, this is also their duty.  Slavs seem to be better about this than the Greeks, but not by too much: I've seen Greek subdeacons/acolytes censing during the Great Entrance, and I've seen Antiochian subdeacons leading litanies and censing.  And the fans are almost always delegated to little kids unless you've got like ten deacons.  And it seems almost anyone can put incense in the censer (which, from our perspective, is absolutely disordered, even if you bring it to the priest to bless after the fact). 

So the Byzantine tradition seems "stricter" in one sense than the Syriac tradition, but not really.  And in the one thing both traditions agree are proper to deacons, no minor clerics perform those functions.  If we extend the comparison to encompass the other liturgical traditions (Coptic, Ethiopian, Armenian), I think we'll see this trend confirmed in rubrics, in their interpretations, in canonical literature, and so on.  Unless you can demonstrate that these are matters of faith on which there can be no disagreement, I think it's foolish not to admit that there is a diversity of practice with an underlying unity, and let it be.  As long as we maintain each tradition as is, without incorporating "foreign" elements that would not make sense in a new context, there really shouldn't be a serious issue.       
         
I would think a bigger obstacle would be EO belly dance and yoga classes after the Liturgy in the church hall.
That's a new one for me.  EO church halls seem to be problematic, though.  The OCA parish I attended while in college had a full service bar in an antechamber of the hall.  I'm not a prohibitionist by any means, but that's too much even for me.  :p
 

Orthodox11

Archon
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
2,994
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Mor Ephrem said:
And it seems almost anyone can put incense in the censer (which, from our perspective, is absolutely disordered, even if you bring it to the priest to bless after the fact). 
Off topic, but is there a custom among Syriac Christians of laypeople using incense in the home?
 

kijabeboy03

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
1,084
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Jonathan said:
Orthodox11 said:
Apart from the use of unleavened bread by the Armenians, I can't think of anything relating to the Eucharist that would be problematic.

Other liturgical practices would probably be problematic though, such as allowing readers and chanters to serve as deacons, the use of drums and cymbals (I realise organs are common in the GOARCH in America, but this is a local aberration discouraged by the Patriarchate, while in Coptic/Tewahedo practice the use of percussion is universal), 'dance' and clapping, etc.

I don't necessarily think these should be obstacles to reunion, but they might be.
Allowing readers and chanters to serve as deacons is problematic, so it's good if you force us into realizing that :)

The cymbals and triangles are not supposed to be played as enthusiastically as they usually are. It should be very quiet and subdued, as a timekeeping mechanism, not the way it is where it is often quite complex and at the forefront. I would have absolutely no objection to losing them, I like it better without. But I think it would be awfully nit-picky to refuse to be in Communion over that.

The liturgical dance and drums of the Ethiopians takes place before or after the Liturgy, not during. There's really nothing wrong with it. I would think a bigger obstacle would be EO belly dance and yoga classes after the Liturgy in the church hall.
Exuberant drumming and dancing takes place outside of the services in things like the processions of the church arks during churches' patronal feast days or on Theophany/T'imqet, but more measured drumming and dancing is built into the services on feast days. (And Sundays too? Perhaps an Ethiopian Orthodox Christian can speak to this - when I attended Ethiopian Orthodox churches as a teenager I was usually out in the church courtyard, not in the church, since you had to wake up very early to make it for the start of Sunday Liturgy.)

In any case, not at all like the drumming and Protestant-style singing that takes place in many of the Alexandrian Orthodox churches in Kenya immediately following Sunday Liturgy. THAT was a bit of an eye opener for me, and I was used to drums, dancing, and cymbals in church...
 

FatherHLL

Archon
Joined
Sep 18, 2008
Messages
2,680
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Orthodox11 said:
Apart from the use of unleavened bread by the Armenians, I can't think of anything relating to the Eucharist that would be problematic.

Other liturgical practices would probably be problematic though, such as allowing readers and chanters to serve as deacons, the use of drums and cymbals (I realise organs are common in the GOARCH in America, but this is a local aberration discouraged by the Patriarchate, while in Coptic/Tewahedo practice the use of percussion is universal), 'dance' and clapping, etc.

I don't necessarily think these should be obstacles to reunion, but they might be.
I don't think that the latter would be a problem, in that it is already done in the Patriarchate of Alexandria in various dioceses (dance, clapping, tambourines).  Local and hierarchically approve practice. 

 

Alpo

Merarches
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
Messages
9,878
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Father H said:
I don't think that the latter would be a problem, in that it is already done in the Patriarchate of Alexandria in various dioceses (dance, clapping, tambourines).  Local and hierarchically approve practice.   
In what countries?
 

Orthodox11

Archon
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
2,994
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Alpo said:
In what countries?
I saw it in Kenya. It was only done during the Communion of the Clergy (whatever one thinks of drums and clapping, it's unfortunate that the Communion Hymn is seen as a free-for-all time-filler), when the congregation sang local Christian songs. No instrumentation was used for any other part of the services, however. It was all unaccompanied, congregational, and somewhat africanised Byzantine chant.
 
Top