Is it because they are ordaining women that they're screwed up, or is ordaining women a symptom of their being screwed up, or are they unrelated (their being screwed up and ordaining women)?SeanMc said:The Anglicans have already decided synodically to ordain women as priestesses. And look how good things have been for them! ;D
Exactly true.ozgeorge said:Here we go again: "The Protestants do it, so it must be wrong."
See Page 11 of this thread.
Are Synods outside the Orthodox Church are now valid and Pan-Orthodox?
You didn't give that answer. You didn't give any answer in regards that question. You only stated why you're here on this thread which I have already noted a number of times; to speculate.ozgeorge said:Then why didn't you accept it as an answer when I said it the first time, and the second time, and the third time.......
You can't both say that you're not sure, and that you're not seeking the answer (speculating) and then say you're not.ozgeorge said:Speculating about what?!
If someone presents something as "evidence" and I show that it is not admissible as "evidence"- how is that "speculating"?
Why can you not simply accept that the issue of women's ordination has not been definitvely decided yet? Instead of sidetracking the issue, why not present some clear, unambiguous evidence to support your claim that a male-only Priesthood is a Church dogma? Is it perhaps because there is no such evidence in existence?
Is this any better than your own "Protestants do it, so it must be right?" - personal speculationozgeorge said:Here we go again: "The Protestants do it, so it must be wrong."
See Page 11 of this thread.
Are Synods outside the Orthodox Church are now valid and Pan-Orthodox?
It's not just that they've done it, it's their approach to determining what is true.SeanMc said:The Anglicans have already decided synodically to ordain women as priestesses. And look how good things have been for them!
Again with the "speculation"....Please tell me where I have said anything like your claim that I hold that "Protestants do it, so it must be right"? Stop making inane accusations to sidetrack, and present your evidence as requested.montalban said:Is this any better than your own "Protestants do it, so it must be right?" - personal speculation
It was me!cleveland said:I'm just wondering, in the last threads discussing this side-discussion (i.e. communing) I've seen the word "dogma" thrown in a few times (I'm sorry I don't remember by whom).
Yep! That's right!cleveland said:Dogmas are unchangeable, whether stated or not, for they are eternal truths;
Yep! Which was precisely my point in using the word "dogma".cleveland said:Even if one were to state that the non-ordination of women is caused by an extention of a dogmatic principle, it still is not a dogma itself. As such, it is changeable, just as many other customs/Traditions/traditions/etc of the Church.
Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything so far....ozgeorge said:It was me!
Yep! That's right!
Yep! Which was precisely my point in using the word "dogma".
So my questions to you both are these:PeterTheAleut said:Here's another example of circular reasoning, if I have the concept right.
Q. Why must we not ordain women?
A. Because we never have in 2000 years.
Q. Why is this?
A. Because the Holy Spirit has guided us into this decision.
Q. What evidence do we have that the Holy Spirit has guided us to not ordain women?
A. We've never ordained women before.
Can you see how I'm presupposing my conclusion, then using my presupposition to prove my conclusion? That's why I argue that we need a solid Patristic/theological/ecclesiological reason why we've never ordained women before.
You've argued the whole time that the notion that woman aren't ordained is based on traditions, rather than Tradition. You've only evidenced this by offering side arguments. The whole thread then comes to you saying 'you're not sure'. If you're not sure you must be neither for nor against. You yourself have argued that you're here just to raise this question.ozgeorge said:Again with the "speculation"....Please tell me where I have said anything like your claim that I hold that "Protestants do it, so it must be right"? Stop making inane accusations to sidetrack, and present your evidence as requested.
Evidence was already presented from Apostolic canons, Church Fathers, etc. Others here have mentioned the different roles of men and women. Jesus picked only men. Pick any of these.PeterTheAleut said:Bizzlebin and Montalban,
I just want to get this straight. I see--this is only my perception, which could be wrong--that you're both arguing that 2000 years of exclusion of women from the priesthood is itself a dogmatic statement that the Church is to never ordain women to the priesthood. This appears to me to be indeed the circular reasoning that I described in the post I quote below.
That's pretty much it, a very accuarate summary of events. Even if you disagree with the stance I and others have taken the opposition * taken by OzGeorge on this revolves around arguing not the issue, but other issues.cleveland said:Let me see if I understand this correctly:
- The argument starts with it being implied or stated that the absence of womens' ordination is an unstated tenet of the Church by the fact that it is cross-cultural and unchanged from the beginning...
- Another example of something cross-cultural (i.e. communing by hand) was brought up, then expanded to debate on crossing arms and/or using the pyx.
- The debate now, about whether the womens' ordination should remain undone, is being fought vicariously through the debate about communion.
Well for OzGeorge, if it's not been forumalated by Ecumenical Council, it's up for speculation.cleveland said:I'm just wondering, in the last pages discussing this side-discussion (i.e. communing) I've seen the word "dogma" thrown in a few times (I'm sorry I don't remember by whom). Dogmas are unchangeable, whether stated or not, for they are eternal truths; as such, the Church restricts things considered dogmatic to a fairly small category, which includes such complex concepts as the Trinity, the Hypostatic Union, Christ's passion, death, and Resurrection, and the like. It certainly does not include such things as whether or not women can be ordained. Even if one were to state that the non-ordination of women is caused by an extention of a dogmatic principle, it still is not a dogma itself. As such, it is changeable, just as many other customs/Traditions/traditions/etc of the Church.
A few other examples of traditions/canonical statements that have gone by the wayside - the ordination of bishops without diocese (chorepiscopoi), which has been gotten around on a "technicality" but really has been disregarded, canonical requirements for the reception of certain heretical sect memebers, etc. Even if it's spelled out in a canon, unless it's put forth by the Church tradition in a very real and tangible statement (Ecumenical Synod, Endemousa Synod, statements of the Fathers which have gained universal acceptance, approved and accepted statements of laymen and hierarchs) as being required for our understanding of Faith, it's just not dogmatic and therefore it is changeable.
And, you claim that this is evidence that a male-only priesthood is dogma? (even if, for the moment, we put aside the fact that the validity of each of these pieces of "evidence" has been challenged on this thread).montalban said:Evidence was already presented from Apostolic canons, Church Fathers, etc. Others here have mentioned the different roles of men and women. Jesus picked only men. Pick any of these.
This goes a long way toward answering the second of my questions, although I did ask for quite a bit more work than may be realistic now, work that I could probably do just as well myself.montalban said:Evidence was already presented from Apostolic canons, Church Fathers, etc. Others here have mentioned the different roles of men and women. Jesus picked only men. Pick any of these.
It isn't. Orthodox doctrine is the issue.minasoliman said:If culture is an issue
Yes.ozgeorge said:And, you claim that this is evidence that a male-only priesthood is dogma? (even if, for the moment, we put aside the fact that the validity of each of these pieces of "evidence" has been challenged on this thread).
Just "yes" or "no" will do.
Jesus chose men for a reason. He only chose men for a reason. I don't believe that Jesus acted without intentPeterTheAleut said:This goes a long way toward answering the second of my questions, although I did ask for quite a bit more work than may be realistic now, work that I could probably do just as well myself.
However, I would still like an answer to my first question. Why is 2000 years of traditional practice a statement of dogma per se? I don't doubt that this traditional practice in and of itself is indeed very authoritative as a guide to our current discussion and decision-making, which is why I advocate very strongly maintaining the status quo until we can establish a convincing reason for changing it. But to proclaim dogma requires that we anathematize as heretics those who disagree with our dogma. Can anyone do this now from nothing more than the traditional practice of the past two millennia?
See, Mina? The issue isn't "culture", it is dogma.montalban said:Yes.
I can give a straight answer. Pity you don't deal the same way.
But the "culture" issue is a non-issue, and we all agree there. Whether or not misogyny existed and/or exists in the Church is not the issue. The reason people think a male only-priesthood is dogma is the issue.minasoliman said:Well, before the "dogma" issue got in, I think we need to address the "culture" issue, which will then lead to calling something "dogma" or not, or at least holding to dogmatic principles.
Good answer! Well thought out, and my sentiments exactly!minasoliman said:I think we shouldn't jump the gun and call something "dogma" in this discussion unless we address what could deter it from being "dogma."
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2702The LCMS believes that those Scripture passages which say that women should not "teach" or "have authority" in the church (see, for example, 1 Cor. 11 and 14; 1 Timothy 2) mean that women ought not hold the authoritative teaching office in the church--that is, the office of pastor. Women are allowed to hold other offices in the church, as long as these offices do not involve the one holding them in carrying out the distinctive functions of the pastoral office.
Several other posters here have understood George's position, as he has demonstrated it very clearly.  If perhaps you seem to be the only (or at least one of the few) having trouble grasping his position, then maybe it would be worth entertaining the thought that the problem lies with your reading of posts and not George's posting. ÂÂI can give a straight answer. Pity you don't deal the same way.
That may be true, but it doesn't answer my question, the question I believe Ozgeorge is also asking you. Why is our traditional practice in itself a statement of dogma such that we can excommunicate those who disagree?montalban said:Jesus chose men for a reason. He only chose men for a reason. I don't believe that Jesus acted without intent
The cultural issue was dealt with about 20 pages ago when someone citedminasoliman said:Well, before the "dogma" issue got in, I think we need to address the "culture" issue, which will then lead to calling something "dogma" or not, or at least holding to dogmatic principles. I think we shouldn't jump the gun and call something "dogma" in this discussion unless we address what could deter it from being "dogma."
God bless.
Mina
I think that's been answered by the thread...PeterTheAleut said:That may be true, but it doesn't answer my question, the question I believe Ozgeorge is also asking you. Why is our traditional practice in itself a statement of dogma such that we can excommunicate those who disagree?
I have explained the differences in meaning. If you fail to see the difference all well and good. Or if believe that ambiguity is the way to go, then thanks for letting me know. What he gave a response that was not a straight answer.ÃŽÂÂÂεκÄάÃÂÂÂÂÂιο said:Several other posters here have understood George's position, as he has demonstrated it very clearly. If perhaps you seem to be the only (or at least one of the few) having trouble grasping his position, then maybe it would be worth entertaining the thought that the problem lies with your reading of posts and not George's posting.
:montalban said:What he gave a response that was not a straight answer.
Or, you could have said: "I don't know", like I did.montalban said:I could have just gone ("I've explained this somewhere else"*, or "You just don't get it do you".) You seem to think that "I've answered this again and again..." and using the same phraseology is the way to increase learning.
Yes, I could have (although you yourself demaned only a "Yes" or a "No"). I could also have waited for several days before answering directly. I could have said "I don't know" right away, or, if I were like some, I'd have waited several days, and then claim I'd already answered it. And then I could make speculation, and then claim I'm not speculating.ozgeorge said:Or, you could have said: "I don't know", like I did.
Lutherans are limited to argument from Scripture (though they can cite tradition for Sunday worship, when it suits them to go beyond sola scriptura).SeanMc said:
Post #118montalban said:1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
montalban said:Unless of course we don't take a literal 'silence' but view it in relation to his views about women teaching... which he was against.
Which Gregory1958 himself cited...
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." -- 1 Timothy 2:13-14
Yet every couple of days someone will pop up and say "Where's the evidence?" ???montalban said:As to women's ordination, we start off with the key texts are 1 Corinthians 14:33-40 and 1 Timothy 2:11-15, and as to different roles, 1 Corinthians 11:3
No, they will probably ask again: "Why does the Church permit divorce for reasons other than adultery?"montalban said:Yet every couple of days someone will pop up and say "Where's the evidence?" ???
I already noted the irony of this statement...ozgeorge said:No, they will probably ask again: "Why does the Church permit divorce for reasons other than adultery?"
You must have read the discussion I had ever several pages back with pensateomnia ending at post #591 when I asked him if he thought that the Church teaches contrary to Christ. I'd given a more detailed case in Post #579ozgeorge said:I already have....twice.....
This thread is so long that information is being lost- which is another reason to retire it. I'm kinda getting tired of having to repeat myself every 8 pages.
montalban said:Jesus taught us 'stuff' in the Bible.
The Bible itself says that not all that 'stuff' that Jesus taught is in the Bible.
We believe in things that aren't taught in the Bible. Some are ideas that are novel (the Ever-Virgin Mary), some are differences in detail.
The issue of divorce is one such example of the latter. Now you either believe that the Church is teaching something absolutely contrary to what Jesus taught, or you believe it isn't. That's as simple as it gets. The Church itself (I don't believe) has the authority to 're-write' what Jesus taught. So assuming you believe that the Church teaches Jesus' message, then the 'details' of divorce must come from Jesus. It goes the same for all the 'examples' you gave in #551.
A modification to this I would believe is that one can accept is to state that the details came from the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, rather than from Jesus during His ministry. And I can add to this that 'details' of Mary's life may have been given by the Theotokos herself.
In reading (and I've still not finished it) “St. Cyril of Alexandria: The Christological Controversy : Its History, Theology, and Texts” by John Anthony McGuckin we see how the church reacted when challenged to a truth. When teaching on the issue of the Trinity, Cyril's argument in effect said "This is what we always taught". You either believe that Jesus said some things and the church teaches a very different idea, or that the church continues with what Jesus taught as it always has. There was no secret there, for it was always taught. The 'details' of the Triune nature of God are not found in the Bible... for theologians of Cyril's day (later ones too) had to come up with new words to describe more exactly the nature of the union of the Trinity... which they always taught and believed.
Which do you believe? That... ?
a) the church teaches things contrary to what Jesus taught
b) the church made up the details
c) the church has always taught the Way of Jesus
d) another way I've not yet considered.
Because St. Paul's words can't be taken in isolation. Neither can Christ's. Paul's words are but the start of the evidential trail. It's good to start one's argument with Scripture.ozgeorge said:If Christ's words are not "evidence" that divorce is only permissible in cases of adultery, why are St. Paul's words evidence that women should not be priests? You were asked this before. The validity of your evidence was challenged before- and yet you still harp on it.
This is exactly the point I was trying to make several pages (and pages!) ago, and the point that a friend of mine who is Orthodox and has recently "come out" to me has made...that the only reason the "anti-gay" or "anti-woman" verses have been included in the Bible was because of the culture of the times, and as such are succeptible to change. Ozgeorge: would you say that the ancient homophobia of the apostles and fathers was the only reason for prohibitions of homosexuality--an orientation which many in today's world see as natural and inborne--and thus an inquiry into our traditional stance against homosexuality is in order? If not, do you feel there is a double standard for using the same standard--that the times and cultures have changed and thus the Church would do well to reexamine their stance re: a theological vs. pastoral interpretation of these Scriptures, since such a stance has never been authoritatively spoken upon in an Ecumenical Synod--to justify an inquiry into women's ordination?minasoliman said:The main argument for those who are for women priesthood, or at least considering the concept, sees the misogynism of ancient Christianity as the only reason why many shunned female priesthood.
If culture is an issue, can we also say that the homophobic culture of ancient Christianity which lead to the abominable hatred of homosexuals justify homosexuality today?
That is why I'm open to saying that the concept of female exclusivity may be correct, although it may have been taken to an unnecessary, and rather unChristian extreme that even the Apostles themselves, including St. Paul, tried to fight.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that was what I was perceiving.
I fully agree with you here. But as pointed out, what you and others seem to be doing on this thread is taking St. Pauls words in isolation from what we know to be ontologically true about men and women in Christ.montalban said:Because St. Paul's words can't be taken in isolation.
Again with the homosexual thing! What on earth does that have to do with the question of women's ordination? You are talking about a sin here. You do realise that being born a woman is not a sin, nor is it any less human or holy than being born a man, don't you?..... You do realise that you are comparing a consequence of the Fall (homosexuality) with something God has created in His own Image (womankind)......or do you?Pedro said:Ozgeorge: would you say that the ancient homophobia of the apostles and fathers was the only reason for prohibitions of homosexuality--an orientation which many in today's world see as natural and inborne--and thus an inquiry into our traditional stance against homosexuality is in order?
That's typical of you to rework what's been said. No one has only relied on the words of St. Paul! As I've already noted every few days you claim no evidence has been cited!ozgeorge said:I fully agree with you here. But as pointed out, what you and others seem to be doing on this thread is taking St. Pauls words in isolation from what we know to be ontologically true about men and women in Christ.
And yet he's stated that everything is subject to changeozgeorge said:What side am I on other than the side of those seeking examination, dialogue, and discussion about this?
ozgeorge said:Everything is subject to change: the Sixth Oecumenical Council anathamised those who do not receive Communion in the hand.
In Holy Tradition "not now" does not necessarily mean "never."
When evidence has been brought forth as requested, he's argued that this evidence doesn't need to be dealt with because it was merely googled (Posr #241). Post #238 I had to repeat that I've already cited evidence...ozgeorge said:And here, I think, is the crux of the problem of this thread. This discussion will never be able to take place on this forum because of the baggage converts bring from their old confessions. "It shouldn't be done because that's what Protestants do." Well Protestants reject Papal Infallibility, does that mean the Orthodox should embrace it?
Interspersed have been arguments about the Theotokos not being an example to anyonre (post #82), icons (post #170), whether Mary taught (post #242) and so on. (others include the use of the Cup in the Eucharist)montalban said:How so?That is false. I have cited John Chrysostomon in post #145
Clement of Rome #148.