Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church

PeterTheAleut

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montalban said:
*It follows on that it is our tradition that the Church doesn't do pictures of God the Father (as Catholics do).
Look at some Russian icons of the Crucifixion and you'll see the Father pictured at the top of the Cross as an old man with a long white beard. You would be correct in calling this uncanonical--at least this is what I was told by an iconographer friend of mine. But I've seen this. I even have one of these icons at home.

BTW, this same iconographer friend informed me that it is permissible to depict God the Father in icons, just so long as He is pictured as a circular field of blue light. The rule of which I am aware is that each Person of the Holy Trinity can be pictured in icons only in the form in which He revealed Himself to us historically: the Father as a field of light (think Moses and Mt. Sinai), the Son as Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit as a dove at the baptism of Christ or as tongues of fire at Pentecost.
 

ozgeorge

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PeterTheAleut said:
Look at some Russian icons of the Crucifixion and you'll see the Father pictured at the top of the Cross as an old man with a long white beard. You would be correct in calling this uncanonical--at least this is what I was told by an iconographer friend of mine. But I've seen this. I even have one of these icons at home.
The Wonderworking "Kursk Root" Icon also has God the Father depicted at the top- apparently this isn't a problem for God, because He doesn't mind working wonders through it.
 

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John 1:18

ozgeorge said:
Those naughty Greeks! It has been my understanding that throughout our history the Trinity has been depicted allegorically, often by three angels
http://amsterdam.park.org/Guests/Russia/moscow/sergiev/tr.jpg

Or on occasion a 'hand of God' emerging from the clouds is used.
Even your source church's homepage does this...
http://www.holytrinityraleigh.org/

Do they have women priests?
 

montalban

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PeterTheAleut said:
Look at some Russian icons of the Crucifixion and you'll see the Father pictured at the top of the Cross as an old man with a long white beard. You would be correct in calling this uncanonical--at least this is what I was told by an iconographer friend of mine. But I've seen this. I even have one of these icons at home.

BTW, this same iconographer friend informed me that it is permissible to depict God the Father in icons, just so long as He is pictured as a circular field of blue light. The rule of which I am aware is that each Person of the Holy Trinity can be pictured in icons only in the form in which He revealed Himself to us historically: the Father as a field of light (think Moses and Mt. Sinai), the Son as Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit as a dove at the baptism of Christ or as tongues of fire at Pentecost.
That has always been my understanding. The only way I can think that it could be done is because Jesus said...
Matthew 11:27
All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

So that in knowing Jesus we have now come to know the Father. However it does seem to be a modernist trend too.
 

montalban

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ozgeorge said:
And Russians (see above).

But yes, there was some dispute about this (and at least one schism). Vladimir Moss wrote an interesting article about it:
http://www.romanitas.ru/eng/THE%20ICON%20OF%20THE%20HOLY%20TRINITY.htm
That's a very interesting article (from having only skimmed over it). I don't know how they quibble about it depicting him symbolically, instead of realistically, all the icons I always thought were rather 'unreal' which is what made them special.

Also, I read elsewhere that some suggest the depictions of the three angels is NOT the Trinity, but of Jesus and two angels. I've always understood it to be representations of all members of the Trinity.
 

montalban

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ozgeorge said:
Perhaps, but "modernity" doesn't explain the Russian Wonderworking Kursk Root Icon depicting God the Father.
Sorry, yes, I keep referring to the Greek icons you cited. I'm still catching up with the Russian evidence you're presenting. I'll print out the arguments from "THE ICON OF THE HOLY TRINITY" By: Vladimir Moss and read them on the train to/from work tomorrow
 

montalban

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I supppse the defenders of the Kursk icon would still use

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

That God the Father can be 'known' in icon through Jesus being God made Man.
 

PeterTheAleut

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montalban said:
Also, I read elsewhere that some suggest the depictions of the three angels is NOT the Trinity, but of Jesus and two angels. I've always understood it to be representations of all members of the Trinity.
The depiction of the Three Angels is really a depiction of the three angels to whom the patriarch Abraham offered hospitality in Genesis 18:1-33. AFAIK, the three angels are not seen as BEING the Holy Trinity; rather, they are seen as PREFIGURING the Holy Trinity, hence the Trinitarian symbolism of the icon.


Now, what's this digression have to do with the issue of the Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church?
 

ozgeorge

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montalban said:
I supppse the defenders of the Kursk icon would still use
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
That God the Father can be 'known' in icon through Jesus being God made Man.
But in the Kursk Root Icon, all Three Persons of the Holy Trinity are depicted individually and simultaneously.
 

ozgeorge

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PeterTheAleut said:
Now, what's this digression have to do with the issue of the Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church?
Well, if we can't agree on what the Tradition regarding the depiction of God the Father is, how is this dispute to be settled other than by an Oecumenical Council. Just like the dispute about what we should see as the Church's Tradition about women and the priesthood.
(Yes, I was leading you all up the garden path!)
 

PeterTheAleut

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ozgeorge said:
Well, if we can't agree on what the Tradition regarding the depiction of God the Father is, how is this dispute to be settled other than by an Oecumenical Council. Just like the dispute about what we should see as the Church's Tradition about women and the priesthood.
(Yes, I was leading you all up the garden path!)
Okay, I see where you're going with this. Good analogy.
 

montalban

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ozgeorge said:
Well, if we can't agree on what the Tradition regarding the depiction of God the Father is, how is this dispute to be settled other than by an Oecumenical Council. Just like the dispute about what we should see as the Church's Tradition about women and the priesthood.
(Yes, I was leading you all up the garden path!)
Actually that's a really poor analogy. Unfortunately it's a tactic that you continually have tried; that you've already tried with the covering of women's heads. You're trying again to argue about one thing by discussing something entirely different. You also did it earlier by failing to distinguish between 'traditions' and 'Holy Tradition' (such as with pews being in churches).

Who in the church is pushing for the ordination of women into the priesthood? You're the only one raising it here. It is otherwise a non-issue. You construct a problem based on the speculation (itself) that there is confusion about it. By leaps and bounds you tie this 'unsolved thing' to any other number of things you might be able to prove that are problems.

In other words faced with your own opinion that there's 'doubt' on this issue; based in fact on the speculation that there must be doubts on the issue. It's a self-fulfilling argument then. I could say "No church council has ruled categorically that children/minors can't be priests", (this itself may be proven a bad analogy, if in fact there is such a ruling). And the mere fact that there is no ruling, would cause me to declare, as you have that it is an 'issue', even though it's not because I'm the only one raising it.

And further, you do all this by ignoring all the evidence put to you on this issue, by claiming that no one can ever really know the minds of the fathers in this regards. So faced with evidence, you just dismiss it summarily, because it gets in the way of your suppositions.

So in summary you create an 'issue', declare that it is, because it 'is' because you've declared it to be!

However you've opened my eyes to a number of things such as that regarding iconographical depictions of the Fathers. I'm not even sure if this qualifies as an 'issue' either, because I'm unsure if it's a matter of great debate in the church as a whole.

*- is there an age limit on priests?
 

greekischristian

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montalban said:
Why not just list an on-line source, if you knew of one?

A list of books
http://www2.orthodoxwiki.org/Online_books
The Pedalion itself
http://aroundomaha.com/cn/stjohn/canons1.html
The 85 without commentaries hardly constitutes the Pedalion.

montalban said:
Do you have a web-source for that picture? I'd just am keen to check out your 'evidences' following the 'Jewish Council of Australia' debacle
NEWS FLASH: The Entire Corpus of Human Knowledge does not exist online...this is especially true of theological texts and sources. If you really want to do meaningful research you really are going to have to crack a book at some point. Google can be useful, but it's not a panacea.
 

montalban

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greekischristian said:
The 85 without commentaries hardly constitutes the Pedalion.
If you wanted to list a better site, you'd have done so. The person earlier asked for an on-line source. If you think it's insufficient, why not be positive and list a better site? But then I don't think that was your intent, hence... drum-roll...
greekischristian said:
NEWS FLASH: The Entire Corpus of Human Knowledge does not exist online...this is especially true of theological texts and sources. If you really want to do meaningful research you really are going to have to crack a book at some point. Google can be useful, but it's not a panacea.
Ignoring the truism made sarcasm google is not a search engine I use anyway. I use meta-searchengines, such as www.ithaki.net and www.ixquick.com, since we're about 'educating' each other, meta-searchengines search through search engines so that using ithaki is like using 12 search engines or so, all at once.
 

ozgeorge

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GiC,
Whose signature on this forum once read: "Never give a sword to a man who can't dance."?
I can't remember...

Well, perhaps we should never put a "can(n)on" in the hands of inexperienced artillerymen.
They should at least understand what a canon is first. Here's a good introduction:
The Canonical Tradition of the Orthodox Church.
 

ozgeorge

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montalban said:
I use meta-searchengines, such as www.ithaki.net and www.ixquick.com, since we're about 'educating' each other, meta-searchengines search through search engines so that using ithaki is like using 12 search engines or so, all at once.
Which are all still completely useless if the information you are looking for is not on the internet, but only in books.
 

greekischristian

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ozgeorge said:
Which are all still completely useless if the information you are looking for is not on the internet, but only in books.
At least someone got my point...which had absolutely nothing to do with what search engine one is using.
 
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