Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church

Pedro

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Maksim said:
I find it difficult to understand why [Bishop Kallistos'] opinion on this matter should be given such undue weight.
Because he's one of the few (and I mean FEW) out there who even bother to dangle the carrot of *possibility* out there and tantalize those (whether he means to do this or not, I don't know) who *want* this to be open.  The rest, in step w/Metr. PHILIP, know what the Church has said.

lubeltri said:
Society gets more "progressive" but the Church's active and believing members are turning more traditional.
This is what I see as those who stay in the Church, stay in the Church and keep the traditions.  Those who want more progressive stuff that's out of step with the patristic norm are leaving.

lubeltri said:
Will we be a smaller Church? Perhaps.
Honestly?  Couldn't care less if it does.  I do have to wonder, though, lubeltri -- how does what you said jibe with your sig of "If this is what it takes to fill our churches, so be it"?  What's the *this* you're referring to?
 

DerekMK

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Couldn't care less if it does.  I do have to wonder, though, lubeltri -- how does what you said jibe with your sig of "If this is what it takes to fill our churches, so be it"?  What's the *this* you're referring to?
It is somewhat of a legend now among traditional Catholics.  An old guard liberal said that after allowing a Tridentine mass for the first time in decades and it was PACKED. 
 

lubeltri

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Νεκτάριος said:
Even beyond that, there is essentially no social stigma to not being religious in the developed world.  So a good chunk of the old guard liberals (and their kids) that got fed up at the pace of change are simply gone.  Add to that a low birth rate and a low retention in the faith rate for liberals in the developed world and they are quickly becoming irrelevant.  OTOH, the Catholic population is exploding in the developing world and tends to be very conservative. 
You are right. Gone are the days when you were supposed to go through the motions at church on Sundays for respectability. So they are now free to take up and leave---their baggageless grandkids or great-grandkids will come back (or, in my case, their children!).
 

greekischristian

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lubeltri said:
And before you laugh or scoff, do you honestly think things are moving in that direction now? The whining of the graying and waning children of the Sixties are falling on deaf ears in the younger generation. They had their chance and failed. Society gets more "progressive" but the Church's active and believing members are turning more traditional. Will we be a smaller Church? Perhaps. But in the future we will be there and ready when the misguided souls start abandoning the modernist/secularist barge in droves when it founders in the black waters. It is taking on ever more filthy water with each passing year.
The fundamentalist wing is already celebrating their victory, but what have they really gained? What changes have been revoked? The tridentine mass was never forbidden, basically they're saying, 'if you can get a large enough group of people who want it together, go ahead, we never said you couldn't...there's just never been enough interest to bother before.' So people will pack churches to see this novel and different mass, for a few months anyway. But the reforms of the last generation still stand, both in Orthodoxy and in Catholicism...certain processes are slowed, but nothing is rolled back, we're holding on to the progress we've made.
 

greekischristian

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Νεκτάριος said:
Even beyond that, there is essentially no social stigma to not being religious in the developed world.  So a good chunk of the old guard liberals (and their kids) that got fed up at the pace of change are simply gone.  Add to that a low birth rate and a low retention in the faith rate for liberals in the developed world and they are quickly becoming irrelevant.  OTOH, the Catholic population is exploding in the developing world and tends to be very conservative. 
The developing world won't remain developing forever...religion aside, in time they will yield to economic pressure and will become as the west is. The fundamentalists may have found a strategy to put off the inevitable for a while, by outsourcing religion to the third world, but a time will come when not even this will work and when reality must be faced. Of course, this strategy is more viable for the latins who have vast segments of population in the developing world...whereas the majority of Orthodox nations are on the very edge of the developed world and moving quickly in that direction. In a far shorter time we will be compelled to face reality.
 

DerekMK

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The developing world won't remain developing forever...religion aside, in time they will yield to economic pressure and will become as the west is.
I wouldn't be so certain of that.  I think you and I will both be long dead before we see the real emergence of the developing world - especially the Catholic areas of Africa and Asia.   

Of course, this strategy is more viable for the latins who have vast segments of population in the developing world...whereas the majority of Orthodox nations are on the very edge of the developed world and moving quickly in that direction. In a far shorter time we will be compelled to face reality.
The Catholic world underwent a full scale transformation because of Vatican II there really wasn't that large of fuss.  OTOH, the Orthodox Church of fame condemned Karadzic's introduction of the heretical letter "j" into the Serbian alphabet, the Greek Church and your beloved Phanar seems nothing short of terrified of simply following orthographical reforms and the Russian church is beating its drum to the basest and most reactionary elements in society.  Remember, I've spent most of my life as a Roman Catholic - I've had many encounters with clergy imports from Africa and Asia.  Almost without fail, they have been far more erudite, educated and progression than European Orthodox clergy.  So while the elites of Eastern Europe are rapidly becoming one with Western European society, the Orthodox church will live on as a curiosity not unlike American snake handlers. 
 

ozgeorge

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greekischristian said:
the best approach is what was done by the Church of Greece, make real steps quietly. Then, given enough time for people to become comfortable with that step and move on.
Exactly. Just as everyone "knows" now that the "Traditional" "Orthodox" way to receive Communion is with a Spoon, (despite the fact that the Canons and the Fathers say otherwise), and the "Traditional" "Orthodox" way to light the Polyeleos is with a light switch. :D
 

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On the use of 'fundamentalist' as an indiscriminate swear word by people like GiC:

In Christianity, of course, the "F-word" is fundamentalism. It's the cheap slur of "enlightened" and "civilized" religion, used against anyone who insists on any hard limits to theological statements.

The real Fundamentalism is a particular Protestant theological system, and many American preachers commonly associated with it are not in fact fundamentalists, by this strict standard.
 

ozgeorge

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The young fogey said:
On the use of 'fundamentalist' as an indiscriminate swear word by people like GiC.
And the term has also bee discussed in numerous threads on this forum:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12504.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5648.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,7831.0.html

And here's a blurb I wrote on the subject in one of those threads over two years ago, and I still stand by it:
ozgeorge said:
"Fundamentalism" in the modern sense of the word, as I understand it, has nothing to do with "the fundamentals of the faith", rather, it is the behaviour of those who lack discernment but believe they posses it. In the case of Orthodox Christianity, we sometimes forget that although the Fathers were firm in their convictions, they also had the gift of discernment.
When we plant a young fruit tree, we tie it to a pole with soft cord (a woman's nylon stocking works well). We don't use wire which will cut into the tree and wound it. Fundamentalism uses wire to do a job that a woman's stocking would do much better and leads to an abundant yeild of good fruit. The Fundamentalist gardener lacks the discernment to see that although a young tree needs to be firmly supported, it is more harmful to use strong, unyeilding methods to acheive this.
An example of the discernment of the Fathers which springs to mind is that of a Hagioritan Father who's gentle demeanour managed to convert a fierce pirate who had attacked the Holy Mountain. The Pirate (an Orthodox Christian) made his confession and was so relieved to hear the words "do not be troubled any more by the evil you have done" after confessing, that he asked to recieve Holy Communion immediatley.. With his gift of discernment, the Father told the ex-pirate to fast every day and come to him to Commune daily for forty days. However, the Father simply administered ordinary, unconsecrated, bread and wine to him each day until the fortieth day when he gave him the Holy Gifts.
What makes a Father a Father is discernment.
When I lack discernment, but believe I am holding to the "fundamentals" of the faith "without compromise", I am in fact filled with ego without knowing it. When this is the case, I act with disrespect towards even my fellow Christians, and a person who is disrespectful lacks humility. I think this is what Paradosis meant by describing one of the symptoms of fundamentalism as a lack of humility. This lack of humility, I think, stems from a lack of discernment, and leads to an even further lack of discernment. A humble person is logical and rational, an arrogant person is illogical and irrational.
If I was living when Christ walked among us, and was one who held to the "fundamentals" of the faith without compromise and wiithout discenment, I would have said that Christ was a heretic and/or a Man of compromise, since one of the fundamentals of the Faith is the Fourth Commandment of the Decalogue which came directly from God- to keep the Sabbath Holy by resting, yet He allowed his disciples to reap grain on the Sabbath and said "the Sabbath was made for man's sake, man was not made for the Sabbath". Surely I couldn't be accused of "legalism" in this scenario, since the Law is obvious and indisputable to everyone- God Commanded us to rest on the Sabbath- I am simply keeping the Commandment of God as my forefathers have. The problem is, of course, that I lack the discernment Christ has, and I do not accept His discernment.
A person who lacks discernment cannot see that in the example of the Hagiorite Father and the repentant Pirate above, the blessed Father gently and wisely prepared the ex-Pirate for Holy Communion and tended his soul. Instead, they would simply see this as a wicked deception. Both the Hagiorite Father and his undiscerning critics are holding to the fundamentals of Holy Tradition, but the Father is doing it with discernment, whereas the critics are holding to the fundamentals without discernment, so I think the title "Fundamentalist" is quite fitting- in that they hold the "fundamentals" and nothing else, leaving no room for the Gift of discernment.
 

greekischristian

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The young fogey said:
On the use of 'fundamentalist' as an indiscriminate swear word by people like GiC:
I am well aware of the history of doctrine. But I am also familiar with the history and evolution of the English language, I'm sure I could compile a rather long list of words that carried one connotation a couple centuries ago and today carry a fundamentally different one. Often both the new and old uses of the word can both be used, at times modern usage has nearly completely eclipsed the traditional use. Heck, I'm sure I'm one of the few people in the anglophone world who still uses the word 'awful' in a positive sense. ;)
 

AlexanderOfBergamo

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Goodmorning to everybody. I beg your pardon for my English. I'm an Italian citizen, born Roman Catholic, who am deciding for conversion to the Orthodox Church. I'm studying a lot about the true Church of Christ and I'd like to show my point of view on this topic.
I spent my first years wondering if it were just that God excluded women from the Holy Orders. That lead me temporarily to appreciate Protestantism (which I later rejected because of its lack of Tradition, unity and Apostolic Succession), then I was attracted by Old Catholicism (Utrajectine tradition). But when I had the occasion, on this year's Pascha, to listen to a Russian Divine Liturgy, I was finally driven to a new understanding of religion. I was already taking some information on Orthodoxy as I'm studying Russian language and culture at University, but now I finally came to a conclusion on this point which, at least up to some months ago, forbade me to convert.

In my opinion, there's no real *sacramental* reason to forbid the Holy Orders to women; but Canon Law is more important. Why? Because if every single Orthodox Church could "choose" to freely introduce women ordinations, chaos would reign and Orthodoxy would be destroyed. It is more or less the same that happened with the Schism with the Latin Church: when the Papists began to change things without an explicit consent of the other Patriarchs and bishops, a Schism was inevitable.
I always pick Saint Vincent of Lerins' criteria for Catholicity as my belief: a doctrine must be shared by all, at any time at everywhere to be truly Catholic. But as we can see, many "Catholic Churches" like Romans, Anglicans or Old Catholics have voluntarily violated the ancient Canons expressed in the Oecumenical Councils. While Local Synods cannot pretend a universal recognition (especially as what Canon Law is concerned), Oecumenical Councils must be respected by all Christians. As many "separate brethren" (sometimes I abhorre this expression) in Anglicanism and Old Catholicism introduce female bishops, presbyters and deacons but the Orthodox and Roman Catholics don't, it is clear that there's no real consent over the issue. What is common? Obviously male ordinations. What is uncertain? Female priesthood. What shall we profess? What is common, i.e. male ordinations. Only a TRUE Oecumenical Council, with representatives charged by all Catholic traditions could change this!

Another aspect I'd like to underline is that in Southern Italy, under Gelasis Pope of Rome, there were Orthodox bishops who ordered female priests. How to judge this? I think they began ordaining women by oikonomia, but the practice at those time had become so usual that even Gelasius could'nt respect, in fact in the Orthodox Church akrivia should be the rule, and oikonomia the exception to be practiced by imminent danger or necessity. A lack of ministers allowed those bishops to intervene with the ordination of female priesthoods until they exchanged that for a licit and ordinary practice.

In conclusion, I think that a duty for Orthodoxy is to preserve the Canons unchanged. If unity could one day be possible, then women priest could be an obstacle. Better stay firmly united in our common faith and WAIT: if the Holy Spirit would like to have female ministers, he will choose and tell it in a validly established Oecumenical Council. The Orthodox Church, on the other side, should work to restore Minor Orders to women, especially to increase the duties of deaconesses and open to the institution of altar girls (girls have no apparent impurity due to menstruation!). I thank you for your attention.

In Christ,    Alex
 

ytterbiumanalyst

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Welcome, Alex! Your English is very good.

Southern Italy is an interesting place for Catholic-Orthodox relations, and we have many on this forum who are Italian or of Italian descent. Your perspective will be very much appreciated.
 

AlexanderOfBergamo

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Thank you! To tell the truth, I'm from Northern Italy, in Bergamo, the town where died one of the most beloved Italian saints, named like me Alexander. He was martyred in the very first centuries of Christendom in Italy and belonged to the Theban Legion.
Recently the Orthodox Church has begun to develop very well in Italy. The Patriachate of Bulgaria has founded a local Church trying to unify (but not absorb) the other traditions, and Bergamo is a well-established see for Russian Orthodox Churches thanks to immigration from Russia. I think this is another sign of the times as the Orthodox Church attracts more and more people: once again Traditions win over indiscriminate reformations, even here where Roman Catholicism is more or less an official religion.
 

ytterbiumanalyst

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Good to hear! Italians have long been Orthodox, and it's good to see some of them returning to their roots.

In addition, these threads might be of interest to you:

Pilgrams from Italy

St. Nicholas Church in Bari, Italy, given to MP

Most of our discussion of Italy involves politics, though, which here has its own private, by-request-only forum, so I haven't listed those threads. If you would like to join in some of the political discussion of Italy, you can PM our administrator, FrChris, and ask him to give you access. Otherwise, the non-political, religious discussion of Italy is in the public fora, which you already have access to. Enjoy!
 

minasoliman

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Is Metropolitan Kallistos' article on the ordination of women online?  I read it from a book, and it was thought-provoking indeed.

I have a question, perhaps new perspectives and questions.  Has there been a history in the Orthodox Church in having female spiritual advisers, not necessarily "mothers of confession" (even though we know priests don't only forgive sins but can also act as spiritual advisers)?

Another question:  Could we possibly have this question emerge mostly in the West not because of culture of women and leadership (though this might be a factor) but the idea that all priests should be celibate? (after all, a priest's wife in the Greek churches is literally called a "priestess." Would such a lack force debate on the issue?)  Could it be lack of women involvement and empowerment in the Church that also bring up these questions?

And also, when one separates liturgical roles from extra-liturgical roles, can one compare the idea of male-only priesthood to water-only baptism, that all restrictions in liturgical roles are not necessarily roles that extend to life outside the liturgy and sacraments (for example that all people are according to Revelations "priests and kings" but not necessarily so in the liturgy).

God bless.
 

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I had thought that the ordination of women to the priesthood was not allowed in the Orthodox Church, but perhaps there is the possibility in a few Eastern Churches of an exception for a female diaconate. However, I would venture a wild guess that if the Orthodox Church were to permit the ordination of women in the future, then the RCC would follow and allow it also.
 

SolEX01

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stanley123 said:
I had thought that the ordination of women to the priesthood was not allowed in the Orthodox Church, but perhaps there is the possibility in a few Eastern Churches of an exception for a female diaconate. However, I would venture a wild guess that if the Orthodox Church were to permit the ordination of women in the future, then the RCC would follow and allow it also.
RCC already has lay women distributing the Eucharist.  I don't know how that is sacramentally allowable.

Ordaining Women to anything would amount to anathema - No precedent in Scriptures; No precedent in Holy Tradition.  The concept of deaconesses is akin to Social Services for women back in the ancient times.
 

Pravoslavbob

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SolEX01 said:
Ordaining Women to anything would amount to anathema - No precedent in Scriptures; No precedent in Holy Tradition.  The concept of deaconesses is akin to Social Services for women back in the ancient times.
I have to disagree with this.  There is quite a lot of good evidence to show that there were female deacons.
 

88Devin12

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While I'm not Orthodox, I have to say... I'm looking to join the ORTHODOX Church, which has PRESERVED THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION... I'm not looking to join the Roman Catholic Church, the Evangelical Church, a Baptist Church, a Charismatic Church, an Anglican church, or anything...

I chose the Orthodox Church because it is Orthodox, and it has preserved the Apostolic Tradition... Allowing the ordination of women and other things would simply be killing off the tradition of the church that has otherwise been preserved for so long.
I don't want to join and then find out what I believed was the True Church and find out it's just a mock "True" Christian church like all the others. If there is no True Church, then my faith is in vain.

However, thank the Lord that it is the True Church, and there will be never any destruction of the Apostolic Tradition.
 

SolEX01

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Pravoslavbob said:
I have to disagree with this.  There is quite a lot of good evidence to show that there were female deacons.
I realize that the subject has been beaten to death.  As stated, the only mention of female deaconesses in the Epistles were those who tended to menstruating women, dressed women, took care of infants and children, visited households akin to modern Social Services, etc.

So, a lay woman distributing the Eucharist in the Roman Catholic Church is perfectly canonical?  ???

If the Orthodox wish to emulate the Anglicans and ordain women to Holy Orders, I might as well receive Communion in a Catholic Church.  After all, believing in God is all the same.  :mad:  The Virgin Mary saw the water being turned to wine at Cana; I never read any Holy Father nor any Holy Tradition stating that the Virgin Mary blessed and distributed the bread and wine and said that these were her Son.  ???
 

SolEX01

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As of 40 years ago, Women weren't elected to Parish Councils never mind serve as Presidents.  So, if one gender anachronism (e.g. women keeping silent in Church) was shattered, why not shatter the rest of them?

Do the female graduates of Seminaries need jobs so bad that they must be ordained as deaconesses because they have the "requisite" education completed?  I think HCHC graduated about 15-20 women in both Divinity and Undergrad Programs according to June 2008 Orthodox Observer.  I don't know about female graduates from St. Tikhon's nor St. Vladimir's.

Why haven't nuns and other female monastics asked for Holy Orders?  What has changed?
 

username!

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SolEX01 said:
RCC already has lay women distributing the Eucharist.  I don't know how that is sacramentally allowable.

Ordaining Women to anything would amount to anathema - No precedent in Scriptures; No precedent in Holy Tradition.  The concept of deaconesses is akin to Social Services for women back in the ancient times.
Grab a copy of the Rudder.  It would disagree with your armchair declaration of anathema.
 

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While I'm not Orthodox yet, I would have to say it'd pretty much be IMO apostasy, blasphemy, heresy or would equal anathema to allow women into the priesthood. At least in Orthodox Churches.
 

ytterbiumanalyst

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Fortunately, there's nothing to worry about. It won't happen. The only time I ever hear this talked about is on the Internet. We have much more important things to worry about right now.
 

Asteriktos

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The only time I ever hear this talked about is on the Internet.
Here's a thread where I mentioned a book which discusses the issue. I'm not sure how much time Met. Kallistos spends online talking about it. :D


We have much more important things to worry about right now.
True that.
 

SolEX01

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username! said:
Grab a copy of the Rudder.  It would disagree with your armchair declaration of anathema.
I have read the Rudder online.  The anathemas would stand if a Woman were Ordained to the Holy Priesthood or higher like the Anglicans, Protestants and others who have gone down that road.  Reinstating the ancient deaconess wouldn't give me a heart attack - just something I would have to get used to.  :)

After 1100 posts, no one can agree as to what a deaconess did in the Early Church.  So, using a review written by Marilyn Rouvelas, here is a sample of what women deaconesses did?

Presvytera Valerie Zahirsky presents the life of St. Olympias (361- 419?) in the context of the Orthodox Christian practice of deaconess. For a long period of time qualified women were ordained to the diaconate in the Orthodox Church. They served by helping with baptisms and funerals, educating others about the faith and ministering to the sick.

Note, no distribution of the Eucharist.
 

SolEX01

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SolEX01 said:
So, a lay woman distributing the Eucharist in the Roman Catholic Church is perfectly canonical?  ???
Mods, please think about locking this thread because others have commented that there are more things to discuss and the topic has thoroughly been exhausted with over 1100 posts and no interest in resuming debate on potentially new valid reasons to ordain deaconesses.
 

minasoliman

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SolEX01 said:
Mods, please think about locking this thread because others have commented that there are more things to discuss and the topic has thoroughly been exhausted with over 1100 posts and no interest in resuming debate on potentially new valid reasons to ordain deaconesses.
I engaged in this debate quite a bit.  If my memory serves well, the questions I just asked are fairly new in my opinion.
 

Aristocles

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OK, here's a comment: The Church of Greece is re-instituting (or discussing doing so) the office of deaconess. I see no problem with that and note it is NOT a liturgical office.
 

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Αριστοκλής said:
OK, here's a comment: The Church of Greece is re-instituting (or discussing doing so) the office of deaconess. I see no problem with that and note it is NOT a liturgical office.
What will be the duties and responsibilities of a Greek Orthodox deaconess?
 

minasoliman

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SolEX01 said:
No one has commented on them, so far.... 
True, but locking a thread would prevent someone in the future from actually commenting on them.
 

SolEX01

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minasoliman said:
True, but locking a thread would prevent someone in the future from actually commenting on them.
Yes, I made the suggestion given the sheer number of posts and lack of consistent discussion on the subject.  :)
 

Pravoslavbob

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SolEX01 said:
I realize that the subject has been beaten to death.  As stated, the only mention of female deaconesses in the Epistles were those who tended to menstruating women, dressed women, took care of infants and children, visited households akin to modern Social Services, etc.

So, a lay woman distributing the Eucharist in the Roman Catholic Church is perfectly canonical?  ???

If the Orthodox wish to emulate the Anglicans and ordain women to Holy Orders, I might as well receive Communion in a Catholic Church.  After all, believing in God is all the same.  :mad:  The Virgin Mary saw the water being turned to wine at Cana; I never read any Holy Father nor any Holy Tradition stating that the Virgin Mary blessed and distributed the bread and wine and said that these were her Son.  ???
Sheesh, would you please just relax.  I am not advocating that women distribute communion.  I am not for the ordination of female priests. 

You said in your original argument that there was no precedent in Scripture or Holy Tradition for ordaining female deacons.  You may or may not be right on the scriptural side of things, but clearly there were female deacons on large scale in some parts of the Eastern Church in the first millenium, even on a very small scale up until about 1200 or so.  Your contention that there is no precedent for their presence as far as Holy Tradition is concerned is bogus. There is good evidence to show that they were ordained at the altar, in a manner similar to (but by no means identical to) male deacons. So  they probably  were deacons, not a kind of subdeacon as some have supposed, and hence members of the "major" order of deacon, just like their male counterparts.  However, as has already been pointed out, their liturgical role appears to have been  minimal or non-existant.  They appeared to have had a special social ministry with women and a role in baptising women, for the sake of modesty. 

I see that you even admit that there were female deacons.  So why did you say words to the effect that "there is no precedent in Tradition" for female deacons?  ???
 

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Pravoslavbob said:
Sheesh, would you please just relax.  I am not advocating that women distribute communion.  I am not for the ordination of female priests.
OK, I was frustrated.  I'm cool.  8) 

Pravoslavbob said:
You said in your original argument that there was no precedent in Scripture or Holy Tradition for ordaining female deacons.  You may or may not be right on the scriptural side of things, but clearly there were female deacons on large scale in some parts of the Eastern Church in the first millenium, even on a very small scale up until about 1200 or so.  Your contention that there is no precedent for their presence as far as Holy Tradition is concerned is bogus. There is good evidence to show that they were ordained at the altar, in a manner similar to (but by no means identical to) male deacons. So  they probably  were deacons, not a kind of subdeacon as some have supposed, and hence members of the "major" order of deacon, just like their male counterparts.  However, as has already been pointed out, their liturgical role appears to have been  minimal or non-existant.  They appeared to have had a special social ministry with women and a role in baptising women, for the sake of modesty.
Brother, May God Bless You for pointing out what I said earlier was bogus.  ;)  I was attacking the idea of Ordaining Women as Priests and Bishops and citing that Holy Tradition did not have examples of women acting in these clerical roles.  If the Orthodox started ordaining women to the priesthood, I threw down the anathemas.  :)

Pravoslavbob said:
I see that you even admit that there were female deacons.  So why did you say words to the effect that "there is no precedent in Tradition" for female deacons?  ???
My heated point was that there was no precedent in Holy Tradition for female priests and I cited the hypothetical example of the Virgin Mary distributing Communion in a clerical role.  Forgive me for not being more specific....  :D
 

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SolEX01 said:
OK, I was frustrated.  I'm cool.  8) 

Brother, May God Bless You for pointing out what I said earlier was bogus.  ;)  I was attacking the idea of Ordaining Women as Priests and Bishops and citing that Holy Tradition did not have examples of women acting in these clerical roles.  If the Orthodox started ordaining women to the priesthood, I threw down the anathemas.  :)

My heated point was that there was no precedent in Holy Tradition for female priests and I cited the hypothetical example of the Virgin Mary distributing Communion in a clerical role.  Forgive me for not being more specific....  :D
Thanks for clarifying your position.  I'm sorry if I was frustrated or surly too.  :)
 

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Pravoslavbob said:
Thanks for clarifying your position.  I'm sorry if I was frustrated or surly too.  :)
Apology accepted and all is well, as usual.  ;)  Would you consider closing the thread since it's been pretty much beaten to death?  Maybe give a warning like the thread on EO's being banned from Catholic forum or something like that?
 
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