Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church

ozgeorge

Hoplitarches
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 2, 2004
Messages
16,379
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
54
Location
Australia
Website
www.greekorthodox.org.au
Bizzlebin said:
A great quote for someone who was a baby at the time of the Council!
I think you will find he was actually closer to your age at the time of the Council.
Should the opinions of people your age not be listened to? ;)
 

Bizzlebin

High Elder
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Messages
714
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
32
Location
Colorado
Website
www.geocities.com
ozgeorge said:
That's strange....the boy (who was not a clergyman) "dropped" it into the dying man's mouth....Why did he "drop it" if he was using an impliment to "place it" in his mouth? Was he perhaps not using an impliment but handling It with his hand?
Have you ever cared for someone who is dying? I have...many times...
They don't even hold their own glass to drink from, you have to do it for them.
Hardly conclusive.
He didn't have instruments because he wasn't a priest, and would be in violation of the canon. And, seeing as he was rational and able to speak clearly, I doubt it would have been a problem for him to move his hands a little. It only says he was unable to walk, not that he was unable to move.

Nonetheless, so that you may believe, Pope Leo the Great in his Sermons:

"For that is taken in the mouth which is believed in Faith, and it is vain for them to respond Amend who dispute that which is taken."

St. Basil says it so clearly it is beautiful:

"It is needless to point out that for anyone in times of persecution to be compelled to take the communion in his own hand without the presence of a priest or minister is not a serious offence, as long custom sanctions this practice from the facts themselves."

Why in the world would St. Basil have to say taking it in the hand is not a serious offense in times of persecution, if it was not a serious offense in peaceful times?

And, believe it or not, another canon in the Council of Trullo addressed this very issue! Canon LVIII:

"None of those who are in the order of laymen may distribute the Divine Mysteries to himself if a bishop, presbyter, or deacon be present. But whoso shall dare to do such a thing, as acting contrary to what has been determined shall be cut off for a week and thenceforth let him learn not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think."

Well, a weeks excommunication for giving yourself the Eucharist! That is simply irrefutable.
 

Bizzlebin

High Elder
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Messages
714
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
32
Location
Colorado
Website
www.geocities.com
ozgeorge said:
I think you will find he was actually closer to your age at the time of the Council.
Should the opinions of people your age not be listened to? ;)
It depends on what date one considers his birth. There are a few dates floating around. Nonetheless, the point is that he wasn't at the Council, and so his words aren't very helpful in determining what the Council said.

No, don't listen to me. I didn't become Orthodox to have an opinion, but to get rid of my opinion. I am only interested in the Truth preserved by the Church, the Truth which is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
 

Bizzlebin

High Elder
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Messages
714
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
32
Location
Colorado
Website
www.geocities.com
ozgeorge said:
Why should it?
Because that is the issue it is addressing, according to your theory. I find it suspect that such key details are missing.

Some more symbolism: Who was the one who reached for the bread on his own at the Last Supper? Judas, the betrayer!
 

ozgeorge

Hoplitarches
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 2, 2004
Messages
16,379
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
54
Location
Australia
Website
www.greekorthodox.org.au
Bizzlebin said:
Because that is the issue it is addressing, according to your theory.
No dear friend, it is the issue according to your theory. As you say:
Bizzlebin said:
I find it suspect that such key details are missing.
Bizzlebin said:
Some more symbolism: Who was the one who reached for the bread on his own at the Last Supper? Judas, the betrayer!
Wrong again. He dipped at the same time as Christ.
 

Bizzlebin

High Elder
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Messages
714
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
32
Location
Colorado
Website
www.geocities.com
ozgeorge said:
No dear friend, it is the issue according to your theory. As you say:

Wrong again. He dipped at the same time as Christ.
You were the one that proposed the held the vessels in their hands, not I. Canons almost always speak in detail of the issues at hand, whether it be naming the group in schism/heresy, or talking about the action itself. The actions you are speaking of simply aren't described.

The same time as Christ, our High Priest did. Again, no contradiction on my end :)
 

ozgeorge

Hoplitarches
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 2, 2004
Messages
16,379
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
54
Location
Australia
Website
www.greekorthodox.org.au
Bizzlebin said:
You were the one that proposed the held the vessels in their hands, not I.
And why did I do this? Was it not to show you that "crossing one's hands" and "holding a pyx" were not mutually exclusive as you suggested they were?
And St. John Damascene (who was your age at the time of the Council of Trullo) explains that "crossing one's hands" mentioned in the Canon of the Council means to place the right hand in the left to receive Communion. And yet you still insist that St. John Damascene is wrong about the practices of his own time, and that you are right about them!
Give up Bizzlebin!
 

Bizzlebin

High Elder
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Messages
714
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
32
Location
Colorado
Website
www.geocities.com
ozgeorge said:
And why did I do this? Was it not to show you that "crossing one's hands" and "holding a pyx" were not mutually exclusive as you suggested they were?

And St. John Damascene (who was your age at the time of the Council of Trullo) explains that "crossing one's hands" mentioned in the Canon of the Council means to place the right hand in the left to receive Communion. And yet you still insist that St. John Damascene is wrong about the practices of his own time, and that you are right about them!
Give up Bizzlebin!
And you did. And in doing so, you also showed there is no mention of it in the canon.

He is not even referring to the Council of Trullo. In fact, we don't even know if he studied all of it canons at the time he wrote that statement. If you would be so kind as to provide the context of St. John's statement, and also the controversy surrounding it (as to whether he wrote it) then you'll see why it doesn't hold water. When another canon of the very same Council calls upon the excommunication of any laymen who give themselves the Body, there is little question as to what is being said. You give yourself the Body, you get excommunicated. Surely the two canons don't contradict each other!
 

montalban

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Mar 4, 2006
Messages
1,823
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
53
Location
Sydney
Bizzlebin said:
And you did. And in doing so, you also showed there is no mention of it in the canon.

He is not even referring to the Council of Trullo. In fact, we don't even know if he studied all of it canons at the time he wrote that statement. If you would be so kind as to provide the context of St. John's statement, and also the controversy surrounding it (as to whether he wrote it) then you'll see why it doesn't hold water. When another canon of the very same Council calls upon the excommunication of any laymen who give themselves the Body, there is little question as to what is being said. You give yourself the Body, you get excommunicated. Surely the two canons don't contradict each other!
It seems that this thread is now a conversation between you two; as OzGeorge refuses to answer my question (stated twice now).

Te problem here is that he tries all arguments at once, especially in light as he's now on record as saying he's against women's ordination as priests.
 

ozgeorge

Hoplitarches
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 2, 2004
Messages
16,379
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
54
Location
Australia
Website
www.greekorthodox.org.au
Bizzlebin said:
And you did. And in doing so, you also showed there is no mention of it in the canon.

He is not even referring to the Council of Trullo. In fact, we don't even know if he studied all of it canons at the time he wrote that statement.
If you would be so kind as to provide the context of St. John's statement....
Bizzlebin, IT DOESN'T MATTER what the context is! What matters is that HE IS DESCRIBING THE PRACTICE OF HIS DAY WHICH WAS AFTER TRULLO!

I'm sorry to "shout", but I can't understand two things about your argument:

1)  How YOU can be right about how Communion was received in St. John Damascene's time and HE be wrong about it.
and
2) WHY ON EARTH YOU CAN'T SEE THAT THE FATHERS INCLUDED ST. JOHN DAMASCENE'S EPITOME UNDER THIS CANON IN THE PEDALION! WERE THE FATHERS JUST TRYING TO CONFUSE US?!
 

Bizzlebin

High Elder
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Messages
714
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
32
Location
Colorado
Website
www.geocities.com
ozgeorge said:
Bizzlebin, IT DOESN'T MATTER what the context is! What matters is that HE IS DESCRIBING THE PRACTICE OF HIS DAY WHICH WAS AFTER TRULLO!

I'm sorry to "shout", but I can't understand two things about your argument:

1)  How YOU can be right about how Communion was received in St. John Damascene's time and HE be wrong about it.
and
2) WHY ON EARTH YOU CAN'T SEE THAT THE FATHERS INCLUDED HIS EPITOME UNDER THIS CANON IN THE PEDALION!
He is only describing the practice of his area, or even his congregation. Surely it would be silly of me if I found some uncanonical parish and them claimed it represented Orthodoxy.

I am not saying it wasn't done that way in his area at that time. But I am interested in the ancient, and canonical, practice. Explain to me how you rationalize the canon that prescribes excommunication for any laymen who give themselves communion.

The Pedallion was a later writing which was compiled by a very select group of people. As I have shown with quotes from a multitude of people, including St. Basil, Pope Leo, Dionysius, and Balsomon, as opposed to apealing to the same quote again and again, the practice that writers of the Pedallion thought was right, and the practice that the Saints endorsed were two very different things. And, you have also failed to provide the context of St. John's quote, while I have provided context and explanation for everything. I think the situation here is clear.
 

ozgeorge

Hoplitarches
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 2, 2004
Messages
16,379
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
54
Location
Australia
Website
www.greekorthodox.org.au
Bizzlebin said:
I think the situation here is clear.
Oh yes, I see it now. St. John Damascene, the Defender of the Icons, was an uncanonical Priest who administered the Holy Gifts contrary to the Canons- why didn't I see that earlier? :D
And what's more, the Pedalion, The great Rudder of the Church is not to be trusted....
Thank you for showing me the way to true Orthodoxy! :D
What else do they teach you in the OCA?
 

Bizzlebin

High Elder
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Messages
714
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
32
Location
Colorado
Website
www.geocities.com
ozgeorge said:
Oh yes, I see it now. St. John Damascene, the Defender of the Icons, was an uncanonical Priest who administered the Holy Gifts contrary to the Canons- why didn't I see that earlier? :D
And what's more, the Pedalion, The great Rudder of the Church is not to be trusted....
Thank you for showing me the way to true Orthodoxy! :D
What else do they teach you in the OCA?
The Pedallian is merely a collection of canons with notes based on the interpretations of the authors. Certainly the canons are not wrong, only the mistaken interpretations of some of them. I surely hope you're not accusing me of ignoring canons. Let's not get into who is canonical and who is not.

As for St. John of Damascus, what prevents him from making a mistake? Don't tell me St. Augustine had his theology right! Sainthood isn't a guarantee of theological or pastoral perfection.

All you've done is use one quote, whose authorship is contested, and try and ignore the views of at least four other men I've presented. Come now, be honest.
 

ozgeorge

Hoplitarches
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 2, 2004
Messages
16,379
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
54
Location
Australia
Website
www.greekorthodox.org.au
Bizzlebin said:
The Pedallian is merely a collection of canons with notes based on the interpretations of the authors. Certainly the canons are not wrong, only the mistaken interpretations of some of them. I surely hope you're not accusing me of ignoring canons. Let's not get into who is canonical and who is not.

As for St. John of Damascus, what prevents him from making a mistake? Don't tell me St. Augustine had his theology right! Sainthood isn't a guarantee of theological or pastoral perfection.

All you've done is use one quote, whose authorship is contested, and try and ignore the views of at least four other men I've presented. Come now, be honest.
So, the Pedalion is wrong in it's interpretation of the Canon, St. John Damascene is wrong in his praxis, and you are right...?
 

Bizzlebin

High Elder
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Messages
714
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
32
Location
Colorado
Website
www.geocities.com
ozgeorge said:
So, the Pedalion is wrong in it's interpretation of the Canon, St. John Damascene is wrong in his praxis, and you are right...?
Rather, St. Basil, Leo, Dionysius, Balsamon and others who I have not needed to quote are right, and St. John is wrong. But perhaps you can finally provide the context of his quote for everyone to see?
 

ozgeorge

Hoplitarches
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 2, 2004
Messages
16,379
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
54
Location
Australia
Website
www.greekorthodox.org.au
Bizzlebin said:
Rather, St. Basil, Leo, Dionysius, Balsamon and others who I have not needed to quote are right, and St. John is wrong.
Or perhaps you have simply misunderstood what they are saying......
Is that so far beyond the realm of possibility?

Bizzlebin said:
But perhaps you can finally provide the context of his quote for everyone to see?
Actually, I can. But AGAIN I have to ask, why is this relevant? The fact is the Fathers included this quote in the Pedalion to explain the 101st Canon of Trullo, and it is this context which you have to prove is erroneous. The burden of proof lies with you.
 

Bizzlebin

High Elder
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Messages
714
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
32
Location
Colorado
Website
www.geocities.com
ozgeorge said:
Or perhaps you have simply misunderstood what they are saying......
Is that so far beyond the realm of possibility?

Actually, I can. But AGAIN I have to ask, why is this relevant? The fact is the Fathers included this quote in the Pedalion to explain the 101st Canon of Trullo, and it is this context which you have to prove is erroneous. The burden of proof lies with you.
Well, how do you explain St. Basil calling it a serious offense? What am I misunderstanding there? You seem to think that your being mistaken is what is outside of the realm of possibility, no matter how many fathers speak to the contrary.

Hardly. I have already shown a very logical interpretation of the canon which lines up with the Epitome and many other Saints. All you have done is rehash the same quote over and over and over. Anyways, the relevancy lies in the context; it will show us what St. John was talking about, who he was addressing, and whether or not this was canonical.

And it still wouldn't hurt to explain the other canon.
 

ozgeorge

Hoplitarches
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 2, 2004
Messages
16,379
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
54
Location
Australia
Website
www.greekorthodox.org.au
Bizzlebin said:
Well, how do you explain St. Basil calling it a serious offense?
He doesn't.

Bizzlebin said:
I have already shown a very logical interpretation of the canon which lines up with the Epitome and many other Saints.
No, what you have done is said that the Pedalion is in error in it's understanding of the 101st Canon of Trullo, and I think you are thereby obligated to defend your position against that of the Pedalion.
 

Bizzlebin

High Elder
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Messages
714
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
32
Location
Colorado
Website
www.geocities.com
ozgeorge said:
He doesn't.

No, what you have done is said that the Pedalion is in error in it's understanding of the 101st Canon of Trullo, and I think you are thereby obligated to defend your position against that of the Pedalion.
Then re-interpret his saying for us.

So the Pedallion, which was created after all these saints, is somehow above them? I think that is a bit ridiculous. That claim is what needs support. Show the authority of the Pedallion, and then I will be happy to.
 

ozgeorge

Hoplitarches
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 2, 2004
Messages
16,379
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
54
Location
Australia
Website
www.greekorthodox.org.au
Bizzlebin said:
Then re-interpret his saying for us.
Which one?

Bizzlebin said:
So the Pedallion, which was created after all these saints, is somehow above them?
Well actually, in a way, yes it is, in that it contains the Concilliar decisions of the Oecumenical Church which are binding on all Orthodox Churches. No one single Saint's teaching is binding on the whole Church. I am surprised that given the magnitude of your discovery that a Canon is misinterpreted in the Pedalion that no one else in the entire Church seems to have picked up on this to correct the error.... :D
Sounds a bit like the Church "cover-up" in the Da Vinci Code. :D
 
Top