Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church

Orest

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Mor Ephrem said:
minasoliman said:
Okay, so here is the way I have been defining the terms.  I have been avoiding equating "priest" with "presbyter" for the Biblical reason that the term "priest" was a more general baptismal term.
Well, I don't mind using this distinction for the purpose of discussion here, but I'm not willing to dogmatise such a distinction.  We have plenty of experience with using the term "priest" as the English word we use for "presbyter", experience we don't really have with calling your newly baptised niece "priest".  :p

The more interesting thing is that the first 6 the "priest" reply mentions is part of that seven, and the last three is not.  I have been taught that the "seventh" order was "doorkeeper" and for some reason, it is not listed.
Interesting.  "Virgins", "widows", and "orphans" are almost certainly traditional "orders" (we read about them in the NT), with "monks" and "hermits" being later additions that, IMO, ought not to be numbered with the seven.  But numbering the seven orders has always varied by tradition.

In our tradition, the "seven orders" are

1.  Baptised (laity)
2.  Confessors (which is more like "catechist" than "someone who suffered for confessing the faith")
3.  Chanters
4.  Readers
5.  Subdeacons
6.  Deacons
7.  Presbyters

Bishops, for whatever reason, are not explicitly mentioned in this list, and I suspect it is a holdover from a time when "bishops" and "presbyters" were not so different.  There are other orders, of course, but these are considered either to be outside the "seven order" structure or "sub-orders" of one of the seven. 

For us, "doorkeeper" is combined with "subdeacon".
Where do those 400 deaconesses of the Coptic Church fit in on that list?
 

Orest

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Mor Ephrem said:
Orest said:
Where do those 400 deaconesses of the Coptic Church fit in on that list?
You'll have to ask the Coptic Orthodox Church.  My post reflected my understanding of the tradition of the Syriac Orthodox tradition.
Sorry, I think I made a mistake in loosing the train of thought because I thought you were talking about the Coptic Orthodox Church.
I haven't been able to find much in English on the Syriac Orthodox tradition.
This article by a scholar in India is very brief:
http://www.academia.edu/4343910/The_Office_of_the_Deaconess_in_Orthodox_Churches1_-A_Historical_Analysis
Canon 34 of the Syriac Orthodox Church and the Orthodox Syrian Church also indicates that these two churches exercised the Female Deaconate in their tradition. Patriarch Severious records that, ‘in the East, i.e., at Antioch, deaconesses have the right to become abbot of a monastery’35. Hudaya Canon explains about the ordination, rights and duties of a deaconess as: 1) there is not ordination for deaconess
but some special prayers to install a women as deaconess, 2) She have the right to sit at the frond row of the seats, 3) She have the right to give Holy Communion to women and the children those who are underthe age of five, 4) She can enter in to the Altar for lighting the lamps and for cleaning, 5) She have the right to take Holy communion from the Sculpture and to give it to women in case of emergency and she have the
right to smear Holy Chrisom in the time of adult baptism for women.36 In India, the position of deaconess prevailed in the periods of Mor Osthatios Sleeba37. He elected some baskyomos as deaconess and they 6assisted him in the time of adult female baptism.
 

Opus118

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PeterTheAleut said:
Volnutt said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Volnutt said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Volnutt said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Volnutt said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Volnutt said:
Because if women are just as fit to be priests as men are, then there is no good reason to deny them the priesthood. "Just because God says so," isn't good enough.
What is the nature of the ordained priesthood that women are just as fit for it as men?
Are women capable of leading and guiding? Are they capable of performing sacraments (Orthodoxy says they can baptize in extremis)? Are they capable of teaching? Are they capable of praying for others and loving them?
Speaking in statements, please define the nature of the ordained priesthood in the Orthodox Church as you understand it.
The head of the local congregation who serves in the bishop's stead ministering the sacraments, pastoring and teaching, ensuring order in the community, and representing the congregation before God.
And is this priesthood to be defined in purely utilitarian terms?
So you think that a priest is a different being than a layman?
Ya know, you might debate a lot more effectively if you wouldn't answer every question with a question that only reveals the straw man you just created of the logic behind the question to which you're responding.
I'm just trying to understand your position.
Sometimes it's better for you to explain your position than deflect questions by inquiring into someone else's.

Volnutt said:
You claimed that I see the priesthood in merely utilitarian terms.
No, I didn't. I just responded to a statement that defined the priesthood purely in utilitarian terms.

Volnutt said:
That seems to imply in the context of this discussion that you think there is something about ordination that inherently changes the man ordained and that this change could never properly apply to a woman.
I think you're reading way too much into my questions. You might try actually answering them for a change.

Volnutt said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Stop with the straw men. OK? They only make you look foolish.
That's not a strawman, it's a reducio ad absurdum of the making too much of the "maleness of God."
It's a straw man in that it shows absolutely no understanding of what I'm really trying to do here. For one, I've said nothing about the "maleness of God".
For what ever reason, I started reading this thread. So far Volnutt is winning this debate. Biro's comments also seemed clear to me.

Hopefully Mor clarified his above post below. I did not understand what he wrote above (of course it is late, and it could be me).
 

PeterTheAleut

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Opus118 said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Volnutt said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Volnutt said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Volnutt said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Volnutt said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Volnutt said:
Because if women are just as fit to be priests as men are, then there is no good reason to deny them the priesthood. "Just because God says so," isn't good enough.
What is the nature of the ordained priesthood that women are just as fit for it as men?
Are women capable of leading and guiding? Are they capable of performing sacraments (Orthodoxy says they can baptize in extremis)? Are they capable of teaching? Are they capable of praying for others and loving them?
Speaking in statements, please define the nature of the ordained priesthood in the Orthodox Church as you understand it.
The head of the local congregation who serves in the bishop's stead ministering the sacraments, pastoring and teaching, ensuring order in the community, and representing the congregation before God.
And is this priesthood to be defined in purely utilitarian terms?
So you think that a priest is a different being than a layman?
Ya know, you might debate a lot more effectively if you wouldn't answer every question with a question that only reveals the straw man you just created of the logic behind the question to which you're responding.
I'm just trying to understand your position.
Sometimes it's better for you to explain your position than deflect questions by inquiring into someone else's.

Volnutt said:
You claimed that I see the priesthood in merely utilitarian terms.
No, I didn't. I just responded to a statement that defined the priesthood purely in utilitarian terms.

Volnutt said:
That seems to imply in the context of this discussion that you think there is something about ordination that inherently changes the man ordained and that this change could never properly apply to a woman.
I think you're reading way too much into my questions. You might try actually answering them for a change.

Volnutt said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Stop with the straw men. OK? They only make you look foolish.
That's not a strawman, it's a reducio ad absurdum of the making too much of the "maleness of God."
It's a straw man in that it shows absolutely no understanding of what I'm really trying to do here. For one, I've said nothing about the "maleness of God".
For what ever reason, I started reading this thread. So far Volnutt is winning this debate. Biro's comments also seemed clear to me.

Hopefully Mor clarified his above post below. I did not understand what he wrote above (of course it is late, and it could be me).
So, do you have anything of substance to add to this discussion?
 

Opus118

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PeterTheAleut said:
Opus118 said:
For what ever reason, I started reading this thread. So far Volnutt is winning this debate. Biro's comments also seemed clear to me.

Hopefully Mor clarified his above post below. I did not understand what he wrote above (of course it is late, and it could be me).
So, do you have anything of substance to add to this discussion?
I do not know yet. My statement is the equivalent of Severian's "subscribed" with a reminder note as to why I subscribed.
 

isxodnik

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Coincidence?

https://fatallmistake.livejournal.com/113207.html
Fighters for the female priesthood as almost the main lead this argument: they say, this tradition (exclusively male priesthood) arose in the days when rough yokels oppressed the beautiful half, and now, when Freedom, it is a relic, for which it is not necessary to cling. Here's just a little clarification. Female priesthood in ancient times was well developed. In paganism.
Eamonomae said:
During the Amazon Synod in Rome, members of the Synod and Pope Francis were seen both praying in front of and using in prayer these 2d images of naked, pregnant women.

The mere fact that people are bowing down and singing to / in front of this naked woman, along with the fact that there was an Amazonian ritual in the above video, according to converts from the Amazon, suggests very heavily that this was an act of Pagan idolatry.
https://spzh.news/ru/news/65516-katolicheskije-monahini-v-amazonii-krestyat-detej-venchajut-i-slushajut-ispovedi
Catholic nuns in the Amazon baptize children, marry and listen to confessions.
The nun claims that she and the sisters of her congregation baptize, witness marriage when a couple wants to marry, and even listen to confessions, although they cannot give absolution: "We accompany the natives in various events when the priest cannot attend and baptism is needed, we baptize. If someone wants to get married, we are present and witness the marriage. Many times we listened to confessions. And although we did not give absolution, but in our hearts we said that God the Father also acts in this case."

"We, as women, participate, as they say in Italian, piano, piano, piano. However, little by little we go to the Church that recognizes us. Sooner or later, we will come to this. We can't push or fight, but we can only talk about it, " the nun concluded.
Personally, I think the talk and the very idea of ordaining women is demonic in nature. It is not by chance that they arise in times and in societies that have deviated from the faith.
 

Alpha60

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isxodnik said:
Coincidence?

https://fatallmistake.livejournal.com/113207.html
Fighters for the female priesthood as almost the main lead this argument: they say, this tradition (exclusively male priesthood) arose in the days when rough yokels oppressed the beautiful half, and now, when Freedom, it is a relic, for which it is not necessary to cling. Here's just a little clarification. Female priesthood in ancient times was well developed. In paganism.
Eamonomae said:
During the Amazon Synod in Rome, members of the Synod and Pope Francis were seen both praying in front of and using in prayer these 2d images of naked, pregnant women.

The mere fact that people are bowing down and singing to / in front of this naked woman, along with the fact that there was an Amazonian ritual in the above video, according to converts from the Amazon, suggests very heavily that this was an act of Pagan idolatry.
https://spzh.news/ru/news/65516-katolicheskije-monahini-v-amazonii-krestyat-detej-venchajut-i-slushajut-ispovedi
Catholic nuns in the Amazon baptize children, marry and listen to confessions.
The nun claims that she and the sisters of her congregation baptize, witness marriage when a couple wants to marry, and even listen to confessions, although they cannot give absolution: "We accompany the natives in various events when the priest cannot attend and baptism is needed, we baptize. If someone wants to get married, we are present and witness the marriage. Many times we listened to confessions. And although we did not give absolution, but in our hearts we said that God the Father also acts in this case."

"We, as women, participate, as they say in Italian, piano, piano, piano. However, little by little we go to the Church that recognizes us. Sooner or later, we will come to this. We can't push or fight, but we can only talk about it, " the nun concluded.
Personally, I think the talk and the very idea of ordaining women is demonic in nature. It is not by chance that they arise in times and in societies that have deviated from the faith.
It is definitely heretical and entirely contrary to the Orthodox faith, to ordain a woman to the priesthood or the episcopate.  The highest legitimate office a woman might serve in is that of deaconess.
 

isxodnik

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And the service of the deaconess is different from the service of the deacon.
 

Kurillos

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Sarah said:
I am against it for various reasons.

Our priest's son was ordained a priest at our parish recently.  Bishop ANTOUN told us about another priest's son whose hand his father kissed after his ordination.  When the son protested, the father told him that he was not kissing his hand but the hand of Christ.  Since Christ was a male, priests should be male.

What if a young woman was ordained and then became pregnant?  How could the baby who is not ordained do priestly things (e.g., go through the Royal Doors)?  I know the baby has to go where the mother goes, but that is kind of my point!  And those who argue that she could be too old or celebate, let me remind them of Sarah, Elizabeth, and the Theotokos!

What about the "monthly cycle and uncleanness" issue?  That would certainly throw a monkey wrench into the service schedule!

What would we call her:  Father, Mother, Fatheress?

I wouldn't want to confess to a woman!

What about the "women shouldn't pray with their heads uncovered" issue?

I would be scared of a female priest who could grow a beard!

Women play an important role in the Church.  Being a priest isn't the only way to serve.
What she said.
 

Kurillos

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Sarah said:
I am against it for various reasons.

Our priest's son was ordained a priest at our parish recently.  Bishop ANTOUN told us about another priest's son whose hand his father kissed after his ordination.  When the son protested, the father told him that he was not kissing his hand but the hand of Christ.  Since Christ was a male, priests should be male.

What if a young woman was ordained and then became pregnant?  How could the baby who is not ordained do priestly things (e.g., go through the Royal Doors)?  I know the baby has to go where the mother goes, but that is kind of my point!  And those who argue that she could be too old or celebate, let me remind them of Sarah, Elizabeth, and the Theotokos!
^^^

Those were definitely not parody points
 

Kurillos

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Uh, sorry - I am a newbie who just did a very n00b thing. I was reading about the same topic in another part of the forum, clicked on a link to an old post and replied to that - and realized only now that it was in the Free for all section. Forgive me.  :-\
 
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