Oriental Malankara Icons in and EO church- permissible?

[Jibrail Almuhajir]

Howdy!

  Just curious about this.  Anyone know?

 

[LBK]

Howdy!

 Just curious about this.  Anyone know?

They shouldn't be. The EO are not in communion with the OOs, so icons of their saints should not be present in EO churches.

 

[Ansgar]

Howdy!

 Just curious about this.  Anyone know?

They shouldn't be. The EO are not in communion with the OOs, so icons of their saints should not be present in EO churches.

I think he means oriental orthodox in style.

 

[hecma925]

There's this thread from yesterday about an icon of a Malankara Indian saint put in an OCA parish.  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,61899.0.html

 

[Jibrail Almuhajir]

There's this thread from yesterday about an icon of a Malankara Indian saint put in an OCA parish.  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,61899.0.html

Yup, that's the one.  I asked the priest if Gregorios was an EO saint, and then asked asked, that if he isn't, is it permissible to hang his icon inside the church.  At first, my question was deleted.  When I asked again, it went ignored. 

 

[hecma925]

There's this thread from yesterday about an icon of a Malankara Indian saint put in an OCA parish.  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,61899.0.html

Yup, that's the one.  I asked the priest if Gregorios was an EO saint, and then asked asked, that if he isn't, is it permissible to hang his icon inside the church.  At first, my question was deleted.  When I asked again, it went ignored. 

Ah, I see.

 

[dhinuus]

There are icons of St.Isaac the Syrian hanging in many EO churches and there are the hymns of St. John of Damascus used in the OO churches.  The Syriac Orthodox Church (OO) adopted canticles called Qonune Yawnoye ("the Greek Canons") composed by John of Damascus and his adoptive brother, Cosmas of Mayuma. The famous Syriac Orthodox Maphrian  Bar `Ebroyo notes in the Ethicon, "even though John belonged to the partisans of the Council of Chalcedon did not mention in his songs the disputes that resulted in the schism". That is the justification to use his hymns in the OO liturgy.  A very similar justification could be applied for the veneration of St. Isaac the Syrian or Mor Gregorious of Malankara.

 

[hecma925]

Could be applied, but has any EO heirarch or theologian written anything similar in reference to OO saints?

 

[orthonorm]

Howdy!

 Just curious about this.  Anyone know?

They shouldn't be. The EO are not in communion with the OOs, so icons of their saints should not be present in EO churches.

I think he means oriental orthodox in style.

What is the oriental style? If you are referring to the things which look like they are stills from a cartoon rendered in flash, then I guess we gotta ask if those icons are even the acts of human creation.

 

[LBK]

Could be applied, but has any EO heirarch or theologian written anything similar in reference to OO saints?

It is one thing for an EO to read and reflect on sayings or writings of an OO saint if these do not conflict with EO doctrine and theology. It is quite another for an icon of an OO saint, who belonged to a church not in communion with the EO, to be present and available for veneration in an EO church, both by individuals, and through liturgical censing.

The former is permissible, the latter is not.

 

[orthonorm]

Could be applied, but has any EO heirarch or theologian written anything similar in reference to OO saints?

It is one thing for an EO to read and reflect on sayings or writings of an OO saint if these do not conflict with EO doctrine and theology. It is quite another for an icon of an OO saint, who belonged to a church not in communion with the EO, to be present and available for veneration in an EO church, both by individuals, and through liturgical censing.

The former is permissible, the latter is not.

Can OOs stand among EOs and be censed? Embraced? Loved?

You again mistake what an icon is from the ground up.

 

[Alveus Lacuna]

I'm sure it's as political as anything else. There are a few Indian families represented in our church, and it really represents honoring their traditions and heritage. They are already communed and all without any act of conversion, so it seems honest enough to me.

 

[LBK]

Could be applied, but has any EO heirarch or theologian written anything similar in reference to OO saints?

It is one thing for an EO to read and reflect on sayings or writings of an OO saint if these do not conflict with EO doctrine and theology. It is quite another for an icon of an OO saint, who belonged to a church not in communion with the EO, to be present and available for veneration in an EO church, both by individuals, and through liturgical censing.

The former is permissible, the latter is not.

Can OOs stand among EOs and be censed? Embraced? Loved?

You again mistake what an icon is from the ground up.

Using your line of thinking, depictions of Roman Catholic and Anglican saints should be allowed in EO churches. Ask yourself why they are not.

And you're still silent on your own religious affiliation, so why should you care?

 

[Alveus Lacuna]

Here's a better image of the icon under discussion:

 

[Nephi]

Considering a number of OCA parishes, with episcopal support, will commune OO, how is an icon cause for unique concern?

 

[hecma925]

Considering a number of OCA parishes, with episcopal support, will commune OO, how is an icon cause for unique concern?

Well, I don't know how widespread it is, and this is anecdotal, but the Ethiopians in my parish were chrismated before communing, so it's not "Hey, have some communion since you're here."  No OO icons in my parish either.

 

[Mor Ephrem]

Considering a number of OCA parishes, with episcopal support, will commune OO, how is an icon cause for unique concern?

Well, I don't know how widespread it is, and this is anecdotal, but the Ethiopians in my parish were chrismated before communing, so it's not "Hey, have some communion since you're here."  No OO icons in my parish either.

"Accepts the Seven Ecumenical Councils."




"Disobeys Trullo 95."

 

[Paisius]

Well that settles it, the apocalypse is here.

 

[hecma925]

^Yup.

 

[AntoniousNikolas]

Considering a number of OCA parishes, with episcopal support, will commune OO, how is an icon cause for unique concern?

Well, I don't know how widespread it is, and this is anecdotal, but the Ethiopians in my parish were chrismated before communing, so it's not "Hey, have some communion since you're here."  No OO icons in my parish either.

Are you saying they "converted"?  Because I'd be willing to bet my car keys that they don't believe they did and that those same Ethiopians still consider themselves Non-Chalcedonian and will take communion in an Ethiopian church whenever the opportunity avails itself.  I've seen this happen before.

 

[hecma925]

Considering a number of OCA parishes, with episcopal support, will commune OO, how is an icon cause for unique concern?

Well, I don't know how widespread it is, and this is anecdotal, but the Ethiopians in my parish were chrismated before communing, so it's not "Hey, have some communion since you're here."  No OO icons in my parish either.

Are you saying they "converted"?  Because I'd be willing to bet my car keys that they don't believe they did and that those same Ethiopians still consider themselves Non-Chalcedonian and will take communion in an Ethiopian church whenever the opportunity avails itself.  I've seen this happen before.

I don't know their hearts and I don't know the conversation my priest had with our bishop (or the conversation he had with that family), so I'm not willing to bet anything.  There is an OO (Coptic) church 15 minutes away and that family chooses to come to our parish.

 

[Nephi]

Considering a number of OCA parishes, with episcopal support, will commune OO, how is an icon cause for unique concern?

Well, I don't know how widespread it is, and this is anecdotal, but the Ethiopians in my parish were chrismated before communing, so it's not "Hey, have some communion since you're here."  No OO icons in my parish either.

Are you saying they "converted"?  Because I'd be willing to bet my car keys that they don't believe they did and that those same Ethiopians still consider themselves Non-Chalcedonian and will take communion in an Ethiopian church whenever the opportunity avails itself.  I've seen this happen before.

I don't know their hearts and I don't know the conversation my priest had with our bishop (or the conversation he had with that family), so I'm not willing to bet anything.  There is an OO (Coptic) church 15 minutes away and that family chooses to come to our parish.

One of the OCA parishes I actually had in mind (which interestingly communed a visiting Coptic woman the last time I attended) used to have multiple Ethiopian families who attended despite there being a nearby Coptic parish, until they managed to get an Ethiopian priest and started their own parish. So I'm not sure how much their choosing to attend an OCA parish over a Coptic one has to do with their feelings of conversion vs jurisdictional swapping.

But, if I recall correctly, there have been OO posters on here that have mentioned even OCA primates (past and/or present, IDK) giving them permission to commune, FWIW.

 

[AntoniousNikolas]

Considering a number of OCA parishes, with episcopal support, will commune OO, how is an icon cause for unique concern?

Well, I don't know how widespread it is, and this is anecdotal, but the Ethiopians in my parish were chrismated before communing, so it's not "Hey, have some communion since you're here."  No OO icons in my parish either.

Are you saying they "converted"?  Because I'd be willing to bet my car keys that they don't believe they did and that those same Ethiopians still consider themselves Non-Chalcedonian and will take communion in an Ethiopian church whenever the opportunity avails itself.  I've seen this happen before.

I don't know their hearts and I don't know the conversation my priest had with our bishop (or the conversation he had with that family), so I'm not willing to bet anything.  There is an OO (Coptic) church 15 minutes away and that family chooses to come to our parish.

I'm glad you're not willing to bet anything.  There's an Ethiopian family in my area that also attends the local EO Church despite the proximity of other OO parishes.  They still don't consider themselves to have converted to Chalcedonian Orthodoxy.

Considering a number of OCA parishes, with episcopal support, will commune OO, how is an icon cause for unique concern?

Well, I don't know how widespread it is, and this is anecdotal, but the Ethiopians in my parish were chrismated before communing, so it's not "Hey, have some communion since you're here."  No OO icons in my parish either.

Are you saying they "converted"?  Because I'd be willing to bet my car keys that they don't believe they did and that those same Ethiopians still consider themselves Non-Chalcedonian and will take communion in an Ethiopian church whenever the opportunity avails itself.  I've seen this happen before.

I don't know their hearts and I don't know the conversation my priest had with our bishop (or the conversation he had with that family), so I'm not willing to bet anything.  There is an OO (Coptic) church 15 minutes away and that family chooses to come to our parish.

One of the OCA parishes I actually had in mind (which interestingly communed a visiting Coptic woman the last time I attended) used to have multiple Ethiopian families who attended despite there being a nearby Coptic parish, until they managed to get an Ethiopian priest and started their own parish. So I'm not sure how much their choosing to attend an OCA parish over a Coptic one has to do with their feelings of conversion vs jurisdictional swapping.

But, if I recall correctly, there have been OO posters on here that have mentioned even OCA primates (past and/or present, IDK) giving them permission to commune, FWIW.

+1

Everything you've written here has been my experience as well.