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Orthodox Bishops conflicting advice over Covid Vaccine - a Christian Dilemma

Arachne

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How is any pharmacutical under 1 year old not experimental? No long term trials = experimental.
The virus itself has only been studied for under a year.
Coronaviruses are not new. COVID-1 was responsible for SARS. COVID-2 caused MERS. Research into vaccines go back to 2002. Adenovirus vector vaccines got started in the 1980s; mRNA technology was first trialled on mice in 1990. None of this is really experimental anymore.

The speed of development is what happens when a project has the entire scientific world's undivided attention, no funding issues and no lack of trial participants. The COVID-19 genome was sequenced in February; the AstraZeneca vaccine was in phase 3 trials in April and the Pfizer followed in July. No bits were skipped - it was all a matter of obstacles removed.
 

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Coronaviruses are not new. COVID-1 was responsible for SARS. COVID-2 caused MERS. Research into vaccines go back to 2002. Adenovirus vector vaccines got started in the 1980s; mRNA technology was first trialled on mice in 1990. None of this is really experimental anymore.

The speed of development is what happens when a project has the entire scientific world's undivided attention, no funding issues and no lack of trial participants. The COVID-19 genome was sequenced in February; the AstraZeneca vaccine was in phase 3 trials in April and the Pfizer followed in July. No bits were skipped - it was all a matter of obstacles removed.
And now we are at the guinne pig stage.
 

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And now we are at the guinne pig stage.
That was the trail participants. Some get paid for there risk. Truth is it's likely safe.
That doesn't mean you have to take it though. If you are scared you don't have to take it.
There goal is to reach a 70% vaccinated population in order to hopefully eradicate it.
Judging from all the variations, that's likely a dream scenario.
 

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Arachne

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Arachne

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And now we are at the guinne pig stage.
LOL, who do you think all the standard childhood immunisations were trialled on, grandmas?
 

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LOL, who do you think all the standard childhood immunisations were trialled on, grandmas?
Yes. Our grandmas.....And also for today: the nursing homes ...the "disposable population" gets priority to see if there's any adverse affects.....euthanasia as a side effect.
 

Arachne

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Yes. Our grandmas.....And also for today: the nursing homes ...the "disposable population" gets priority to see if there's any adverse affects.....euthanasia as a side effect.
Our grandmas were schoolkids then. Like the 1.6 million who queued up for Dr Salk.

How's your euthanasia going? Over here it seems to be gloriously failing.
 

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Our grandmas were schoolkids then. Like the 1.6 million who queued up for Dr Salk.

How's your euthanasia going? Over here it seems to be gloriously failing.
And let us pray for each other. You are also in my prayers. God bless you.
 

Dominika

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Arachne

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Also, going back to the original focus of the thread, the Church of Greece put it down in black and white some time ago. It's just the contrarians kicking up a fuss still.


Also, from the front of the 'disposables':

 

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Of course not, that's what kids in Africa and Asia are for, right?
No, that's completely wrong, unless you are Bill Gates, whose Foundation sponsers such things
 

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I suspect that’s part of the point.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who was confused by that. It did seem a little odd to cover up an icon that way.
 
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Arachne

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No, that's completely wrong, unless you are Bill Gates, whose Foundation sponsers such things
Someone's kids have to be the first. As long as it's not yours, right? Go ask people who were born before 1950 what they did when the polio vaccine came out.

Also, the Gates Foundation has saved millions of lives with their vaccination programs across the developing world, whether you like it or not.
 

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"Just suck it up and get the shot all you filthy anti-vaxxer scum of the earth. You all make me want to puke. Be compassionate like me."
Stinky, this post above was made in sarcasm. I just noticed you reacted to it with a shock emoji, so I thought I would ease your mind. ;)
 

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Any vaccine which incorporates cells from aborted fetal kidney tissue is a spiritual matter:
No current vaccines *contain* or "incorporate" HEK 293; this cultivar, rather, was used in *development*.

HEK 293 cultivars are used in early R&D to see whether a vaccine candidate will work in human cells to produce or express an epitope.

Such usage is still an ethical question, but the question is not about what vaccines contain or incorporate, but how their efficacy is tested at an early stage.

For further explanation:

Vatican Discussion:
 
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Irish Melkite

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What seems to be lost on the part of anti-vaxxers (even among persons who consider themselves religious) is any consideration of the possibility that God has allowed humankind to develop vaccines for the physical ills that plague humanity as one consequence of the fall from grace experienced by Adam and Eve. He could, as easily have disfavored such and allowed disease to take an unfettered toll on the world's peoples.

Most, if not all of you, were vaccinated against polio without a second thought, probably in your childhood, when the option to decline vaccination was not yours to exercise. Presumably, those with children have since allowed them to be vaccinated as well - probably without ever considering the consequences of not doing so. Well, the consequences you avoided in doing so were potentially pretty devastating, even though you may be ignorant of them. Before Salk and Sabin developed vaccines against poliomyelitis, the delibitating, and sometimes fatal, disease struck down adults - but, even more commonly, children - in the prime of life. You've never witnessed a teen in an iron lung, its bellows serving to provide the opportunity to breathe that the child could no longer do for him or herself - and which would be required for the remainder of life. The vast majority of anti-vaxxers are woefully ignorant of post-polio sequelae, its after-effects, the flail and twisted limbs, the leg length discrepancies, the paralysis, the weakened immune systems. How much more so should they be desirous of avoiding the consequences of a virus that counts death as an even more likely result.

Every time that God has permitted development of a vaccination against disease, be it smallpox, rubella, mumps, polio, He has conferred a blessing on us that we would be well-advised to celebrate and of which we should take advantage, rather than presuming to know more than those gifted with the scientific werewithal to discover and offer us an opportunity to overcome or avoid circumstances that we would certainly not choose to suffer were that an option. It is sometimes given to us to avoid suffering - free will offers you the opportunity to do so. God helps those who help themselves.

Many years,

Neil
 

J Michael

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So, very much like the vaccines for HepA, shingles, rubella, rabies, chickenpox and adenovirus, which I don't hear anyone bleating about.

Also, cut the sensationalism. All four (4) immortalised cell lines used in vaccine development come from therapeutic abortions going back 35-60 years. We've been through this before.
Any vaccine using aborted fetal cells raises spiritual concerns.

As I'm someone "out there" and somewhat of a conspiratorialist (that's not even a word, is it?), I can bleat at length about all the vaccines you've mentioned. But...it's easier if you just read some of the material available (and there's no shortage of it, either) regarding the negative aspects of vaccines, none of which my own son has ever received and he's healthy as the proverbial horse.

There are plenty of ways to safeguard your own health and that of the ones you love without vaccinating them. It's not difficult to find out what they are if you are inclined to find out.

Having said all that, I would never deny someone the opportunity to get a vaccination if that's what they want. By the same token, I don't want anyone mandating that I or others must.
 

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But...it's easier if you just read some of the material available (and there's no shortage of it, either) regarding the negative aspects of vaccines
What are the negative aspects of vaccines, and what materials do you recommend regarding them?
 

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What are the negative aspects of vaccines, and what materials do you recommend regarding them?
Well...the worst one would be death. There are numerous others. It's not difficult to research......if you're interested.

So, for starters....
Anyone Who Tells You Vaccines Are Safe and Effective is Lying
by Dr. Vernon Coleman

Vaccination 100 Years of Orthodox Research
By Viera Scheibner, Ph.D. (she's not referring to Orthodox Christianity :) )

Vaccination, Social Violence, and Criminality: The Medical Assault on the American Brain
By Harris Coulter, Ph.D.

A Shot in the Dark
by Harris Coulter, Ph.D.

Vaccination and Immunization: Dangers, Delusions and Alternatives (What Every Parent Should Know)
by Leon Chaitow

WHAT YOUR DOCTOR MAY NOT TELL YOU ABOUT (TM): CHILDREN'S VACCINATIONS
by Stephanie Cave, M.D.

And a plethora of articles online. Happy research and reading!!!
 

J Michael

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what materials do you recommend regarding them?
Forgot to mention above:

Miller's Review of Critical Vaccine Studies: 400 Important Scientific Papers Summarized for Parents and Researchers
by Neil Miller

Dissolving Illusions: Disease, Vaccines, and The Forgotten History
by Suzanne Humphries, M.D.

Vaccines, Autoimmunity, and the Changing Nature of Childhood Illness
by Thomas Cowan, M.D.

Vaccines: A Reappraisal
by Richard Moskowitz, M.D.

More happy reading :)!
 

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Thank you for sharing this. He has a way of explaining this that is simple enough for people to follow along (myself).
It's up to each of us to make a conscientious decision. Im grateful the Bishops have left it up to the individual to decide with their own doctor. May God give grace and wisdom and may we be united in our love for all.
 

Arachne

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- Vernon Coleman, no longer Dr: Conspiracy theorist, anti-vaccine activist, AIDS denialist, relinquished his medical licence rather than having it taken away, fraudulent use of the 'Professor' title, medical claims repeatedly discredited.
- Viera Scheibner: Geologist, not affiliated with medicine in any form. Shown to have repeatedly misrepresenting data in making her anti-vaccine claims.
- Harris Coulter: Homeopath, so non-medical non-scientist. None of the issues he raises is based on scientific fact.
- Leon Chaitow: Osteopath and naturopath, not a doctor or researcher. The wheels came off the autism wagon long ago.
- Stephanie Cave: A doctor, who's been sucked into the 'functional medicine' quackery (ineligible for course credits by the AAFP) and keeps flogging the autism dead horse.
- Neil Miller: Journalist, not a doctor or researcher, director of an anti-vaccine institute.
- Suzanne Humphries: Another homeopath, and Andrew Wakefield's best fan, so quackery squared I guess.
- Thomas Cowan: Coleman all over again, down to losing his medical license and reinventing himself as a 'health coach'.
- Richard Moskowitz: Yet another one who left medicine for homeopathy.

Not a single person on this list that has actually done any research on vaccines, and most of them are not even qualified for it.

So, how about you tell me in your own words what exactly are the negative aspects of vaccines? Explain them to me like I'm six years old.
 

J Michael

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- Vernon Coleman, no longer Dr: Conspiracy theorist, anti-vaccine activist, AIDS denialist, relinquished his medical licence rather than having it taken away, fraudulent use of the 'Professor' title, medical claims repeatedly discredited.
- Viera Scheibner: Geologist, not affiliated with medicine in any form. Shown to have repeatedly misrepresenting data in making her anti-vaccine claims.
- Harris Coulter: Homeopath, so non-medical non-scientist. None of the issues he raises is based on scientific fact.
- Leon Chaitow: Osteopath and naturopath, not a doctor or researcher. The wheels came off the autism wagon long ago.
- Stephanie Cave: A doctor, who's been sucked into the 'functional medicine' quackery (ineligible for course credits by the AAFP) and keeps flogging the autism dead horse.
- Neil Miller: Journalist, not a doctor or researcher, director of an anti-vaccine institute.
- Suzanne Humphries: Another homeopath, and Andrew Wakefield's best fan, so quackery squared I guess.
- Thomas Cowan: Coleman all over again, down to losing his medical license and reinventing himself as a 'health coach'.
- Richard Moskowitz: Yet another one who left medicine for homeopathy.

Not a single person on this list that has actually done any research on vaccines, and most of them are not even qualified for it.

So, how about you tell me in your own words what exactly are the negative aspects of vaccines? Explain them to me like I'm six years old.
Well...hmmm...osteopathy, naturopathy, and homeopathy are all systems of....wait for it....medicine. Just different from your conventional, allopathic, western medicine. (By the way, I studied and practiced homeopathy in England for 12 years before returning to the U.S. I know...."quack, quack"...oh well).

From webmd.com: "Homeopathy is a medical system based on the belief that the body can cure itself. Those who practice it use tiny amounts of natural substances, like plants and minerals. They believe these stimulate the healing process."

Before I studied homeopathy I was a true believer in vaccinations and their efficacy. I don't think I was brainwashed, but I do think I learned to look at things a little differently.

I'm not even going to attempt to convince you of anything here--#43 of Fr. Tom Hopko's 55 Maxims: "Never try to convince anyone of anything." Your tone (as much as tone can be detected or interpreted in this context) seems to be one of having already made up your mind.

If you're not happy with the sources I offered, by all means, do your own research and find some yourself. I know you're not 6 years old so I assume you're perfectly capable of doing so. Did you even browse through any of the books I listed? Did you read any of them? Did you examine the sources used in them? Probably not. Oh well.

Oftentimes, when people do things outside the conventional "norms", they are debunked and "discredited" and ostracized, regardless of the merits of what they might be doing. It happens all the time in many fields of endeavor, not least of all medicine.

Suzanne Humphries, btw, may be a homeopath, but she's also a nephrologist--as in medical doctor with a specialty in kidney disorders. Certainly capable of reading and understanding medical and other scientific literature and of doing research.

Harris Coulter, btw, was not a homeopath by profession. He was a medical historian. Certainly capable of reading and understanding medical and other scientific literature and of doing research.

Dr. Richard Moskowitz never left medicine.

Just a few of the adverse reactions to vaccines: death; miscarriage; severe anaphylactic shock; guillain-barre syndrome; learning difficulties; injection site tumors. Want more? Do the research.
 

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Coronaviruses are not new. COVID-1 was responsible for SARS. COVID-2 caused MERS. Research into vaccines go back to 2002. Adenovirus vector vaccines got started in the 1980s; mRNA technology was first trialled on mice in 1990. None of this is really experimental anymore.

The speed of development is what happens when a project has the entire scientific world's undivided attention, no funding issues and no lack of trial participants. The COVID-19 genome was sequenced in February; the AstraZeneca vaccine was in phase 3 trials in April and the Pfizer followed in July. No bits were skipped - it was all a matter of obstacles removed.
The only bit skipped was the long-term observation and reviews to determine safety, efficacy, and long-term side effects. That's why normally vaccines take anywhere from 5-10 years to be marketable.
 

Arachne

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Well...hmmm...osteopathy, naturopathy, and homeopathy are all systems of....wait for it....medicine. Just different from your conventional, allopathic, western medicine. (By the way, I studied and practiced homeopathy in England for 12 years before returning to the U.S. I know...."quack, quack"...oh well).
Osteopathy, naturopathy and homeopathy are not taught in medical school and their practitioners don't earn MD. The term 'complementary medicine' is actually more accurate, as it denotes (correctly) that they can enhance conventional medicine but not replace it.

Before I studied homeopathy I was a true believer in vaccinations and their efficacy. I don't think I was brainwashed, but I do think I learned to look at things a little differently.
Your new viewing angle probably obscures the suppression of diseases that vaccines bring about, and the resurgence of the same when such programs are allowed to lapse.

If you're not happy with the sources I offered, by all means, do your own research and find some yourself. I know you're not 6 years old so I assume you're perfectly capable of doing so. Did you even browse through any of the books I listed? Did you read any of them? Did you examine the sources used in them? Probably not. Oh well.
Research involves, in its very early stages even, verifying the reliability of the available sources. None of your citations passed that stage. None of those authors is qualified to give more than an opinion, and even most of them are blatantly biased.

Oftentimes, when people do things outside the conventional "norms", they are debunked and "discredited" and ostracized, regardless of the merits of what they might be doing. It happens all the time in many fields of endeavor, not least of all medicine.
And when any of those people can actually prove their claims without fudging their sources, they will become the dominant view. It's not like it hasn't happened over and over and over, in medicine and elsewhere.

Suzanne Humphries, btw, may be a homeopath, but she's also a nephrologist--as in medical doctor with a specialty in kidney disorders. Certainly capable of reading and understanding medical and other scientific literature and of doing research.
She also hitched herself to Andrew Wakefield's wagon (who, as a reminder, started the 'vaccines cause autism' malarkey in an effort to discredit the MMR and sell the measles vaccine he had developed to the NHS). A complete lack of medical ethics there, and the misinformation continued in her own book.


Harris Coulter, btw, was not a homeopath by profession. He was a medical historian. Certainly capable of reading and understanding medical and other scientific literature and of doing research.
Don't be so certain. Medical research is not the same as historical research. Same way that a medical journalist can report on research, but not participate or evaluate it.

Just a few of the adverse reactions to vaccines: death; miscarriage; severe anaphylactic shock; guillain-barre syndrome; learning difficulties; injection site tumors. Want more? Do the research.
Severe side effects of vaccines, like anaphylactic shock, are extremely rare (around 2 cases per million), and even some of them can be avoided if the person has had proper healthcare beforehand and any allergies or other contraindications have been diagnosed; unfortunately, not all can be detected in advance. There have been no causal links established between vaccination and either death or learning difficulties. Most vaccines are not administered during pregnancy, and if you're talking about the COVID-19 ones in particular, there seems to be some deliberate misinformation going on there as well. Injection site tumours happen to cats, not humans.

I'm not qualified, nor do I have access to the means to do actual research, as opposed to Google search, like you and I and everyone else has been doing here. That's why I rely on people who have done their research: virologists, microbiologists, biochemists, epidemiologists, and experts on public health.
 

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Well...hmmm...osteopathy, naturopathy, and homeopathy are all systems of....wait for it....medicine. Just different from your conventional, allopathic, western medicine. (By the way, I studied and practiced homeopathy in England for 12 years before returning to the U.S. I know...."quack, quack"...oh well).

From webmd.com: "Homeopathy is a medical system based on the belief that the body can cure itself. Those who practice it use tiny amounts of natural substances, like plants and minerals. They believe these stimulate the healing process."
Speaking very briefly of homeopathy, and then I'm going to leave it alone: I've known any number of medical doctors who have, being disillusioned with conventional medicine, gone on to study and practice homeopathy. On the other hand, I've never heard of anyone who was a professional homeopath (i.e., someone not possessing an M.D. or the equivalent) going on to study and practice conventional medicine. Doesn't mean they don't exist, though.

Last thing--you may want to check out your own British Faculty of Homeopathy https://facultyofhomeopathy.org/ . Maybe ask them if homeopathy isn't medicine.

Done.
 

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Osteopathy, naturopathy and homeopathy are not taught in medical school and their practitioners don't earn MD. The term 'complementary medicine' is actually more accurate, as it denotes (correctly) that they can enhance conventional medicine but not replace it.



Your new viewing angle probably obscures the suppression of diseases that vaccines bring about, and the resurgence of the same when such programs are allowed to lapse.



Research involves, in its very early stages even, verifying the reliability of the available sources. None of your citations passed that stage. None of those authors is qualified to give more than an opinion, and even most of them are blatantly biased.



And when any of those people can actually prove their claims without fudging their sources, they will become the dominant view. It's not like it hasn't happened over and over and over, in medicine and elsewhere.



She also hitched herself to Andrew Wakefield's wagon (who, as a reminder, started the 'vaccines cause autism' malarkey in an effort to discredit the MMR and sell the measles vaccine he had developed to the NHS). A complete lack of medical ethics there, and the misinformation continued in her own book.




Don't be so certain. Medical research is not the same as historical research. Same way that a medical journalist can report on research, but not participate or evaluate it.



Severe side effects of vaccines, like anaphylactic shock, are extremely rare (around 2 cases per million), and even some of them can be avoided if the person has had proper healthcare beforehand and any allergies or other contraindications have been diagnosed; unfortunately, not all can be detected in advance. There have been no causal links established between vaccination and either death or learning difficulties. Most vaccines are not administered during pregnancy, and if you're talking about the COVID-19 ones in particular, there seems to be some deliberate misinformation going on there as well. Injection site tumours happen to cats, not humans.

I'm not qualified, nor do I have access to the means to do actual research, as opposed to Google search, like you and I and everyone else has been doing here. That's why I rely on people who have done their research: virologists, microbiologists, biochemists, epidemiologists, and experts on public health.
Your points are all well taken. We will just have to agree to disagree. I'm too old and tired to re-fight this, especially here. Besides, I'm missing the hockey game on t.v. Bye.
 

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Doctor of Osteopathy (DO) is equivalent to an MD and practice medicine with the same liberties.
 

Ainnir

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Doctor of Osteopathy has the same training as a Medical Doctor plus some specialized training in Osteopathic manipulation therapies.
 

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I don't necessarily agree with the honoring the sacrifice bit, but hey, clear, chill explanation ftw.
I agree with you. He describes the mentality of sacrificing to Molech- our children for a greater " good" which society determines. There is no fear of God nor respect for the life of the unborn in his message. He made it very clear how society thinks. I strongly oppose this mindset described in the video. My conscience cannot agree to this.
 

hecma925

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He's the first physicoan I have ever heard refer to an abortion as a sacrifice.
 

hecma925

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I agree with you. He describes the mentality of sacrificing to Molech- our children for a greater " good" which society determines. There is no fear of God nor respect for the life of the unborn in his message. He made it very clear how society thinks. I strongly oppose this mindset described in the video. My conscience cannot agree to this.
Otoh, the cells from the aborted babies could have been flushed down a Dutch toilet.
 

Ainnir

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He's the first physicoan I have ever heard refer to an abortion as a sacrifice.
Yeah, normally it's cold and clinical. Tissue, etc. So at least "sacrifice" humanizes the baby? idk. Sad subject. Morality aside, we all have our personal gross out factors. I appreciate how he's just like, here are the facts, make your own decision.
 

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Yeah, normally it's cold and clinical. Tissue, etc. So at least "sacrifice" humanizes the baby? idk. Sad subject. Morality aside, we all have our personal gross out factors. I appreciate how he's just like, here are the facts, make your own decision.
He's one of the few physicians that I actually enjoy watching on Youtube.
 

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Yeah, normally it's cold and clinical. Tissue, etc. So at least "sacrifice" humanizes the baby? idk. Sad subject. Morality aside, we all have our personal gross out factors. I appreciate how he's just like, here are the facts, make your own decision.
A therapeutic abortion, which is what at least three out of the four cell lines used in vaccine research come from, is in essence a sacrifice of the child in order to save the mother's life.
 
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