• Please remember: Pray for Ukraine in the Prayer forum; Share news in the Christian News section; Discuss religious implications in FFA: Religious Topics; Discuss political implications in Politics (and if you don't have access, PM me) Thank you! + Fr. George, Forum Administrator

Orthodox-Catholic Intercommunion in Pennsylvania?!

username!

Protokentarchos
Site Supporter
Joined
Aug 21, 2005
Messages
5,090
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Where Iron hydrochloride ruins watersheds

Asteriktos

Strategos
Joined
Oct 4, 2002
Messages
40,135
Reaction score
613
Points
113
Faith
-
Jurisdiction
-
hecma925 said:
So is "ethnic" a pejorative now?
According to the Krindatch data about half of Orthodox parishes like their ethnic identity and are trying to preserve it. Whatever it is that they consider their ethnic identity anyway. But this may not be relevant here, I dunno.
 

Mor Ephrem

Hypatos
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 3, 2002
Messages
36,433
Reaction score
321
Points
83
Age
41
Location
New York!
Website
www.orthodoxchristianity.net
Faith
Mercenary Freudianism
Jurisdiction
Texas Feminist Coptic
username! said:
Regardless of ethnicity I doubt there is any open communion in Pittsburgh
I certainly wasn't open to commune among the EO parishes in that region when I lived there.  And my nearest OO parish was at least an hour away, not across the street from the EO church like some of the RC/EC parishes.
 

TheTrisagion

Hoplitarches
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
17,939
Reaction score
185
Points
63
Age
42
Location
PA, USA
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Antiochian
Mor Ephrem said:
username! said:
Regardless of ethnicity I doubt there is any open communion in Pittsburgh
I certainly wasn't open to commune among the EO parishes in that region when I lived there.  And my nearest OO parish was at least an hour away, not across the street from the EO church like some of the RC/EC parishes.
I believe you would be able to commune in an Antiochian parish if you really wanted to and had permission from your priest or bishop.
 

AntoniousNikolas

Taxiarches
Joined
Dec 4, 2002
Messages
7,237
Reaction score
7
Points
0
Location
East Coast, USA
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Oriental Orthodox Church
username! said:
I have seen converts be extremely hostile and rude to cradles. So I guess I have witnessed an ethnic group being closed minded.
Me too.  As fashionable as cradle-bashing might be, some folks seem to forget that hubris and self-importance can cut both ways.  For decades now we've all heard about the cliquishness and ethnocentrism of certain parishes, but no one seems to want to address the phenomenon of the know-it-all convert who feels superior because he "made a choice" for Orthodoxy (as if being born Orthodox precludes this possibility in the cradle) or has read some Lossky. Worse still is the "in my old church" guy, who seems to think that the ills of his new Orthodox parish can best be cured by adopting the practices prevalent in his former confession, or the guy who thinks that the "cradle" Orthodox lack a genuine love for Christ because their devotion doesn't manifest itself in the flashy, "on fire for Jesus" way he's used to.  This is not to minimize the complaints of those who have genuinely found some parishes to be less than welcoming, but merely to acknowledge that this is not purely a one-sided problem.  The whole "I'm here now, and I demand immediate accommodation and adjustment" thing is something I've seen more than once, and it's never a good look.
 

PJ

Taxiarches
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
6,504
Reaction score
3
Points
38
Location
New England
Faith
Christian
Are we now going into the convert-or-ethnic false dichotomy?
 

frjohnmorris

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
1,177
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Peter J said:
Are we now going into the convert-or-ethnic false dichotomy?
You are right. I have seen both extremes. There are problems from both sides, problems from cradle Orthodox who never really converts accept as authentically Orthodox and problems from converts who try to be more Orthodox than the Orthodox and who have a superior attitude towards cradle Orthodox. Both sides are wrong.

Fr. John W. Morris

 

AntoniousNikolas

Taxiarches
Joined
Dec 4, 2002
Messages
7,237
Reaction score
7
Points
0
Location
East Coast, USA
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Oriental Orthodox Church
Peter J said:
Are we now going into the convert-or-ethnic false dichotomy?
Do they have that in Catholicism, Eastern or otherwise?  Are there converts to Roman Catholicism who for some reason seek out its Eastern forms specifically and then complain of its "ethnic" otherness?

username! said:
So back to intercommunion...
Is the topic exhausted?  It seems that pretty much everyone agrees that the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches are not in communion, that communion between the two is restricted to instances of economia, that individuals should not feel free to commune in both at their own discretion, and that anyone who does so is either ignorant and deluded or a rogue who likely eats and drinks to their own condemnation (may God have mercy on them).  Is there anyone who is advancing a different opinion?
 

frjohnmorris

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
1,177
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Antonious Nikolas said:
Peter J said:
Are we now going into the convert-or-ethnic false dichotomy?
Do they have that in Catholicism, Eastern or otherwise?  Are there converts to Roman Catholicism who for some reason seek out its Eastern forms specifically and then complain of its "ethnic" otherness?

username! said:
So back to intercommunion...
Is the topic exhausted?  It seems that pretty much everyone agrees that the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches are not in communion, that communion between the two is restricted to instances of economia, that individuals should not feel free to commune in both at their own discretion, and that anyone who does so is either ignorant and deluded or a rogue who likely eats and drinks to their own condemnation (may God have mercy on them).  Is there anyone who is advancing a different opinion?
Such divisions exist in every Christian denomination. There are completely Americanized Protestant denominations in which there are parishes which are dominated by one family,  the founders of the parish or their descendants and if one does not belong to the right group they are never really fully equal members of the parish.

Fr. John W. Morris
 

PJ

Taxiarches
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
6,504
Reaction score
3
Points
38
Location
New England
Faith
Christian
Antonious Nikolas said:
Peter J said:
Are we now going into the convert-or-ethnic false dichotomy?
Do they have that in Catholicism, Eastern or otherwise?  
I imagine (I can't say for sure) that a convert-or-ethnic dichotomy does exist in the thinking of Catholics, in countries where Catholicism is a small minority. Not in America -- well, not nowadays.

Among Greek Catholic and Oriental Catholic parishes, I'd say: Yes, if you replace "convert" with something that includes cradle-Latin-Catholics.

Antonious Nikolas said:
Are there converts to Roman Catholicism who for some reason seek out its Eastern forms specifically and then complain of its "ethnic" otherness?
Yes, but it's not terribly common.
 

theistgal

Archon
Site Supporter
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
2,477
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
Sunny Southern Cal
username! said:
So back to intercommunion...
Yes, good idea! :D

When you go to someone else's church and you KNOW they do not want you to receive Communion from them, and you get in line and do so anyway, that's rude.

When they're visiting your church and you pressure them to receive Communion there, even though you KNOW that their own Church has told them not to do so, that's rude.

Solution: don't be rude!  :police:

There - problem solved!  8)

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to sing at a wedding this afternoon and I woke up with a big honkin' cough this morning, so I'm going to have to do some damage control.

Or just pretend it's "Sing like a Pirate Day":  "Arrrr, there be the bride, all dressed in white, she be. Arrrr."
 

mike

Protostrator
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
24,873
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
31
Location
Białystok / Warsaw
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk
frjohnmorris said:
I had no vestments with me and could not concelbrate with him even if it were allowed.
Parish has one set of vestments?
 

podkarpatska

Merarches
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
Messages
9,732
Reaction score
3
Points
0
Location
Northeast United States
Website
www.acrod.org
Replies 142, 143 and 144 may be the best exchanges in a long time regarding the complex relationship between the ECC and the Eastern Orthodox.

In my opinion the relationship which existed in the decade prior to their respective untimely deaths,  between Orthodox Metropolitan Nicholas of the Carpatho- Russian Orthodox and ECC Metropolitan Basil of the Ruthenian Greek Catholics -  men who headed two groups which literally despised each other from the 1930s through the mid 1980s - was a paradigm of a respectful, fraternal and proper relationship. Neither would have embraced a false unity as Zoghby envisioned. Their example helped long fractured families start to find peace, communities fractured by schism are generally at peace and we have an enriched understanding of the choices that were made years ago and why they were made. A similar understanding exists within much of the American Ukrainian community due to the efforts of their hierarchs. Love and respect exists - which means no intercommunion is possible unless true unity is established.
 

frjohnmorris

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
1,177
Reaction score
0
Points
0
podkarpatska said:
Replies 142, 143 and 144 may be the best exchanges in a long time regarding the complex relationship between the ECC and the Eastern Orthodox.

In my opinion the relationship which existed in the decade prior to their respective untimely deaths,  between Orthodox Metropolitan Nicholas of the Carpatho- Russian Orthodox and ECC Metropolitan Basil of the Ruthenian Greek Catholics -  men who headed two groups which literally despised each other from the 1930s through the mid 1980s - was a paradigm of a respectful, fraternal and proper relationship. Neither would have embraced a false unity as Zoghby envisioned. Their example helped long fractured families start to find peace, communities fractured by schism are generally at peace and we have an enriched understanding of the choices that were made years ago and why they were made. A similar understanding exists within much of the American Ukrainian community due to the efforts of their hierarchs. Love and respect exists - which means no intercommunion is possible unless true unity is established.
I have been reading about the conflict between Ukrainian Catholics and Ukrainian Orthodox in Eastern Europe. Neither side is innocent, both sides committed un Christian acts towards the other side. There is a slogan, "What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas," a relative adaption should be "What happened in Eastern Europe should stay in Eastern Europe." People should not bring to America the conflicts from Eastern Europe. In this country, we have religious freedom. Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox should live together in peace and mutual respect and not re-fight the battles of the old country.

Fr. John W. Morris
 

Irish Melkite

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Dec 17, 2004
Messages
1,029
Reaction score
9
Points
38
Age
75
Location
MA, USA
Website
www.byzcath.org
Faith
Melkite Greek-Catholic
Jurisdiction
Eparchy of Newton of the Melkites
Antonious Nikolas said:
Peter J said:
Are we now going into the convert-or-ethnic false dichotomy?
Do they have that in Catholicism, Eastern or otherwise?  Are there converts to Roman Catholicism who for some reason seek out its Eastern forms specifically and then complain of its "ethnic" otherness?
Absolutely! We saw it in large numbers in the aftermath of Vatican II when a lot of Latins decided that we were a place to which they wanted to escape and, on settling in, decided that we needed to be ... more something etc ... Latin, Western, ... or ... less something ...
Eastern, ethnic, etc

I have long treasured the words of the 1970 Christmas Pastoral Message ("The Courage to be Ourselves") of Melkite Archbishop Joseph Tawil, of blessed memory. Archbishop Joseph believed that the principal dangers to our communities were, ironically, apparent polar opposites - a 'ghetto mentality' and 'assimilation' ...

In a ghetto life is closed in upon itself, operating only within itself, with its own ethnic and social clichés. And the Parish lives upon the ethnic character of the community; when that character disappears, the community dies and the parish dies with it.

One day all our ethnic traits – language, folklore, customs – will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, primarily for the service of the immigrant or the ethnically oriented, unless we wish to assure the death of our community. Our Churches are not only for our own people but are also for any of our fellow Americans who are attracted to our traditions which show forth the beauty of the universal Church and the variety of its riches.

...

Without doubt we must be totally devoted to our American national culture. We must have an American life-style. We must be fully American in all things and at the same time we must preserve this authentic form of Christianity which is ours and which is not the Latin form. We must know that we have something to give, otherwise we have no reason to be. We must develop and maintain a religious tradition we know capable of enriching American life. Otherwise we would be unfaithful to our vocation.

It is often easier to get lost in the crowd than to affirm one’s own personality. It takes more courage, character, and inner strength to lead our traditions to bear fruit than it takes to simply give them up. The obsession to be like everyone else pursues us to the innermost depths of our hearts. We recognize that our greatest temptation is always to slip into anonymity rather than to assume our responsibility within the Church. And so, while we opt for ethnic assimilation, we can never agree to spiritual assimilation.
Many years,

Neil
 

AntoniousNikolas

Taxiarches
Joined
Dec 4, 2002
Messages
7,237
Reaction score
7
Points
0
Location
East Coast, USA
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Oriental Orthodox Church
Irish Melkite said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
Peter J said:
Are we now going into the convert-or-ethnic false dichotomy?
Do they have that in Catholicism, Eastern or otherwise?  Are there converts to Roman Catholicism who for some reason seek out its Eastern forms specifically and then complain of its "ethnic" otherness?
Absolutely! We saw it in large numbers in the aftermath of Vatican II when a lot of Latins decided that we were a place to which they wanted to escape and, on settling in, decided that we needed to be ... more something etc ... Latin, Western, ... or ... less something ...
Eastern, ethnic, etc

I have long treasured the words of the 1970 Christmas Pastoral Message ("The Courage to be Ourselves") of Melkite Archbishop Joseph Tawil, of blessed memory. Archbishop Joseph believed that the principal dangers to our communities were, ironically, apparent polar opposites - a 'ghetto mentality' and 'assimilation' ...

In a ghetto life is closed in upon itself, operating only within itself, with its own ethnic and social clichés. And the Parish lives upon the ethnic character of the community; when that character disappears, the community dies and the parish dies with it.

One day all our ethnic traits – language, folklore, customs – will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, primarily for the service of the immigrant or the ethnically oriented, unless we wish to assure the death of our community. Our Churches are not only for our own people but are also for any of our fellow Americans who are attracted to our traditions which show forth the beauty of the universal Church and the variety of its riches.

...

Without doubt we must be totally devoted to our American national culture. We must have an American life-style. We must be fully American in all things and at the same time we must preserve this authentic form of Christianity which is ours and which is not the Latin form. We must know that we have something to give, otherwise we have no reason to be. We must develop and maintain a religious tradition we know capable of enriching American life. Otherwise we would be unfaithful to our vocation.

It is often easier to get lost in the crowd than to affirm one’s own personality. It takes more courage, character, and inner strength to lead our traditions to bear fruit than it takes to simply give them up. The obsession to be like everyone else pursues us to the innermost depths of our hearts. We recognize that our greatest temptation is always to slip into anonymity rather than to assume our responsibility within the Church. And so, while we opt for ethnic assimilation, we can never agree to spiritual assimilation.
Many years,

Neil
What a beautiful message from Archbishop Joseph!  Thanks very much for sharing this, Neil.  It is applicable to the experience of many predominantly immigrant and first-or-second-generation Eastern churches, including my own.  Right now, it seems that though we are moving past the ghetto mentality, some of us have yet to realize the even greater dangers of spiritual assimilation, in our case meaning an attraction to mega-church Protestantism with its slick and worldly packaging.  May God preserve His Church and one day unite all Christians of Orthodox Faith and practice.  The courage to be ourselves indeed!

P.S. - If there's a place I could read the full message, please provide a link or pm me.  Thanks again.
 
Top