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Orthodox Church in America and Autocephaly

ialmisry

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ozgeorge said:
Here is why the autocephaly of the OCA poses an Ecclesiastical problem problem to the other Churches. Have a look at the Tomos:

7. The Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America shall have exclusive spiritual and canonical jurisdiction over all bishops, clerics and laymen of the Eastern Orthodox confession in continental North America, excluding Mexico, and including the State of Hawaii who are presently part of the Metropolitanate, or who shall later enter the Metropolitanate; and over all parishes which now belong or later shall be accepted into the Metropolitanate, excepting the entire clergy, possessions and parishes enumerated in Paragraph 3, points a,b,c.
By what authority does the Patriarchate of Moscow grant the OCA "exclusive spiritual and canonical jurisdiction over all Bishops of the Eastern Orthodox Confession in North America"?
It was his canonical territory.
Imagine for a minute that His All Holiness, Patriarch Bartholomew granted the GOA autocephaly and stated that every Orthodox Bishop in North America (except those who belong directly to the Ecumenical Patriarchate) are now under the juristiction of the "Autocephalous GOA".
Bishop Archbishop Metropolitian EP Pope Meletios ? III I IV II pretty much gave us both this problem and that of the Calendar, two issues that are supposed to be on the agenda of the Great Synod.


The situation bears a lot of resmeblance to the Estonian question (though with more justification at least: we do have Greeks here).

Irish Hermit said:
Innocent said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
Αριστοκλής said:
My understanding is that the others merely view the OCA to be what it was, a metropolis of Moscow.
Does this mean it will have to be Moscow that grants the OCA autocephaly?
It was Moscow that granted the OCA autocephaly. You need to look at the motives why the other Churches do not recognize the OCA.
Part of the reason, at least as it has been explained to me, was the arrogance of Moscow's decision.    None of the other Churches in the States were consulted about the granting of autocephaly.  None were invited to join. None had any participation whatsoever.  Moscow and what was then the Metropolia acted as if all the other Churches in the States did not exist.  A complete PR disaster!
I have been told that the metropolia approached the EP to come under his omophorion as has happened with a number of Russian Churches in Europe after the Revolution (and still remain, e.g. Finland, and if you ask him, Estonia, etc.).  EP Athenogoras said that they would have to settle their affairs with the Mother Church, which they did.

Who else was Moscow supposed to talk to?  The CoG and Cyprus differs to Constantinople, and EVERYONE else, including Antioch, were split in jurisdictions pro and anti the Mother Church as the Russian Situation was (Met. Philip's explanation for his latest move is accurate as to the situation)  Given that circumstance, it was wise of Moscow to settle HER affairs, and let someone on the ground mend the fences with their neighbors.

ozgeorge said:
Innocent said:
ozgeorge said:
Here is why the autocephaly of the OCA poses an Ecclesiastical problem problem to the other Churches. Have a look at the Tomos:

7. The Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America shall have exclusive spiritual and canonical jurisdiction over all bishops, clerics and laymen of the Eastern Orthodox confession in continental North America, excluding Mexico, and including the State of Hawaii who are presently part of the Metropolitanate, or who shall later enter the Metropolitanate; and over all parishes which now belong or later shall be accepted into the Metropolitanate, excepting the entire clergy, possessions and parishes enumerated in Paragraph 3, points a,b,c.
By what authority does the Patriarchate of Moscow grant the OCA "exclusive spiritual and canonical jurisdiction over all Bishops of the Eastern Orthodox Confession in North America"? Imagine for a minute that His All Holiness, Patriarch Bartholomew granted the GOA autocephaly and stated that every Orthodox Bishop in North America (except those who belong directly to the Ecumenical Patriarchate) are now under the juristiction of the "Autocephalous GOA".
I thought the Russians were the first to bring Orthodoxy to America? Does that not give the Russian Church the right to grant autocephaly to its Church in its claimed boundaries?
Let's assume for a moment that your thinking is correct. By that logic, every Orthodox Church in North America which is not in the OCA or the Moscow Patriarchate is uncanonical. So if you guys in the OCA consider us uncanonical- what do you care what we think?
The diptychs.
 

ozgeorge

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ialmisry said:
It was his canonical territory.
So I hope that you are in the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate or the OCA- you surely wouldn't choose to perpetuate this uncanonical situation of usurping a Bishop's canonical territory.
 

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ozgeorge said:
Innocent said:
ozgeorge said:
Innocent said:
Does the EP consider the OCA uncanonical?
No. The Churches which do not recognise the autocephaly of the OCA do not consider it uncanonical. They simply consider it as not truly autocephalous.
The proof of this is that Bishop Jonah sits on the  Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas http://www.scoba.us/jurisdictions.html .
Exactly! So why would the OCA would think the other Churches are uncanonical? I think the other Churches will not give up the cash cow and are allowing the situation in the US which hurts the spread of Orthodoxy for selfish reasons. All that said I do not think of them as uncanonical.
So, we are all just corrupt?
I'm not sure if corrupt is the right word but selfish is. I'm also not sure why you keep saying we. I don't think all the people of a Church should be accountable or the actions of the hierarchy. Do you think the situation in the US is ok? Or the situation in other parts of the world with multiple overlapping jurisdictions?


ozgeorge said:
Innocent said:
ozgeorge said:
Innocent said:
ozgeorge said:
Here is the reality:
http://www.scoba.us/jurisdictions.html
::)
Why do you roll your eyes?
I'm not a big fan of scoba.
Why not?
I just think it gives the outward appearance of an American synod of sorts and it is not. It just saddens me to see what should be and is not.
 

ialmisry

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ozgeorge said:
Innocent said:
Does the EP consider the OCA uncanonical?
No. The Churches which do not recognise the autocephaly of the OCA do not consider it uncanonical. They simply consider it as not truly autocephalous.
The proof of this is that Bishop Jonah sits on the  Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas http://www.scoba.us/jurisdictions.html
Yes. At the time there was talk of schism, but it was avoided.

Btw, issues came up with SCOBA when Iakovos "left."  As senior member, Met. Philip should have been chairman.  Either the GOA or the EP raised the issue of canons 3 Constantinople I and Chalcedon 28, which should have no implication here.  I don't recall what face saving device was hit upon.

Innocent said:
ozgeorge said:
Innocent said:
ozgeorge said:
Here is the reality:
http://www.scoba.us/jurisdictions.html
::)
Why do you roll your eyes?
I'm not a big fan of scoba.
Yes.  How many years since Ligonier, and they still haven't grown a backbone?

ozgeorge said:
Innocent said:
ozgeorge said:
Innocent said:
Does the EP consider the OCA uncanonical?
No. The Churches which do not recognise the autocephaly of the OCA do not consider it uncanonical. They simply consider it as not truly autocephalous.
The proof of this is that Bishop Jonah sits on the  Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas http://www.scoba.us/jurisdictions.html .
Exactly! So why would the OCA would think the other Churches are uncanonical? I think the other Churches will not give up the cash cow and are allowing the situation in the US which hurts the spread of Orthodoxy for selfish reasons. All that said I do not think of them as uncanonical.
So, we are all just corrupt?
LOL. Who's "we" George.  I didn't know that you were in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in Australia in America.

Are control issues corrupt? You're the psychologist.
 

ozgeorge

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Innocent said:
I'm not sure if corrupt is the right word but selfish is. I'm also not sure why you keep saying we. I don't think all the people of a Church should be accountable or the actions of the hierarchy. Do you think the situation in the US is ok? Or the situation in other parts of the world with multiple overlapping jurisdictions?
No, I don't think it's OK. But what I find even sadder is people accusing Bishops of being purely money-grubbing and selfish because they don't accept one view. I don't think the case is closed that North America is the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate, yet somehow, this argument on which it is all hinging is treated like a closed case, with no discussion to be entered into- which is most unconcilliar, and hence unOrthodox.

Innocent said:
I just think it gives the outward appearance of an American synod of sorts and it is not. It just saddens me to see what should be and is not.
It doesn't try to be an American Synod- that's not what it aims to do. It is a temporary situation until the matter can be resolved finally. To think of SCOBA as a Synod is nonsense. Who is the Primate of the Synod? What Orthodox Church anywhere in the world recognises it as a Synod? I think you guys need to start being more outward looking. The Orthodox Church is not bound in the East by New York and the west by California- you guys are part of something which spans the globe.
 

ozgeorge

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ialmisry said:
ozgeorge said:
Innocent said:
Does the EP consider the OCA uncanonical?
No. The Churches which do not recognise the autocephaly of the OCA do not consider it uncanonical. They simply consider it as not truly autocephalous.
The proof of this is that Bishop Jonah sits on the  Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas http://www.scoba.us/jurisdictions.html
Proof of what?
Read what you just quoted.
Hint: "The Churches which do not recognise the autocephaly of the OCA do not consider it uncanonical. "
 

ialmisry

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ozgeorge said:
ialmisry said:
It was his canonical territory.
So I hope that you are in the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate or the OCA- you surely wouldn't choose to perpetuate this uncanonical situation of usurping a Bishop's canonical territory.
I was in his jurisdiction for just that reason, but had to transfer with my impending divorce: my ex's father confessor (Antiochian) the baptiser of my younger son (the first was baptised by another Antiochian priest at the OCA cathedral) wanted full authority to deal with the situation (as it turned out, he told my ex not to come back).  So I chose a little economy to take care of the concrete, immediate needs of my sons because I can't wait until the powers that be get their theoretical act together.

As for jurisdiction, my baptismal cross was blessed at St. George's in Constantinople  :eek:.
 

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ozgeorge said:
Innocent said:
I'm not sure if corrupt is the right word but selfish is. I'm also not sure why you keep saying we. I don't think all the people of a Church should be accountable or the actions of the hierarchy. Do you think the situation in the US is ok? Or the situation in other parts of the world with multiple overlapping jurisdictions?
No, I don't think it's OK. But what I find even sadder is people accusing Bishops of being purely money-grubbing and selfish because they don't accept one view. I don't think the case is closed that North America is the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate, yet somehow, this argument on which it is all hinging is treated like a closed case, with no discussion to be entered into- which is most unconcilliar, and hence unOrthodox.
So you don't think money is the driving force here? So why has all the Churches in the US not gotten together and formed an American Orthodox Church? I really doubt in The GOC, AOA, and the other Churches under the EP got together and said we are forming a united American Church that the OCA would say no we are it! Its not going to happen unless money keeps flowing back to the mother Churches and some sort of control is kept.

ozgeorge said:
Innocent said:
I just think it gives the outward appearance of an American synod of sorts and it is not. It just saddens me to see what should be and is not.
It doesn't try to be an American Synod- that's not what it aims to do. It is a temporary situation until the matter can be resolved finally. To think of SCOBA as a Synod is nonsense. Who is the Primate of the Synod? What Orthodox Church anywhere in the world recognises it as a Synod? I think you guys need to start being more outward looking. The Orthodox Church is not bound in the East by New York and the west by California- you guys are part of something which spans the globe.
Please reread what I said because I did not say is was trying to be an American Synod.

I did not know the Orthodox Church was Global!
 

ozgeorge

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ialmisry said:
ozgeorge said:
ialmisry said:
It was his canonical territory.
So I hope that you are in the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate or the OCA- you surely wouldn't choose to perpetuate this uncanonical situation of usurping a Bishop's canonical territory.
I was in his jurisdiction for just that reason, but had to transfer with my impending divorce: my ex's father confessor (Antiochian) the baptiser of my younger son (the first was baptised by another Antiochian priest at the OCA cathedral) wanted full authority to deal with the situation (as it turned out, he told my ex not to come back).  So I chose a little economy to take care of the concrete, immediate needs of my sons because I can't wait until the powers that be get their theoretical act together.

As for jurisdiction, my baptismal cross was blessed at St. George's in Constantinople  :eek:.
I dunno....this "picking and choosing jurisdictions" will be the end of Orthodoxy in the USA. ;)

Innocent said:
So you don't think money is the driving force here?
No. I don't.

Innocent said:
So why has all the Churches in the US not gotten together and formed an American Orthodox Church?
Not for the reasons you think, but you are obviously so convinced that you are right that discussing it would be pointless.

Innocent said:
I really doubt in The GOC, AOA, and the other Churches under the EP got together and said we are forming a united American Church that the OCA would say no we are it! Its not going to happen unless money keeps flowing back to the mother Churches and some sort of control is kept.
Don't forget the Freemasons are in on it too.
 

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ozgeorge said:
Don't forget the Freemasons are in on it too.
Yeah whatever! I have a differing opinion than you so now I'm into conspiracy theories. Your right there is not point to continue if you need to use personnel attacks.
 

ialmisry

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ozgeorge said:
Innocent said:
I'm not sure if corrupt is the right word but selfish is. I'm also not sure why you keep saying we. I don't think all the people of a Church should be accountable or the actions of the hierarchy. Do you think the situation in the US is ok? Or the situation in other parts of the world with multiple overlapping jurisdictions?
No, I don't think it's OK. But what I find even sadder is people accusing Bishops of being purely money-grubbing and selfish because they don't accept one view. I don't think the case is closed that North America is the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate, yet somehow, this argument on which it is all hinging is treated like a closed case, with no discussion to be entered into- which is most unconcilliar, and hence unOrthodox.
It is the principle under which ALL the other patriarchates operated/operate: hence why the Church of the Old Kingdom of Romania extended into Transylvania in Greater Romania and the present Republic, the question of the parishes in Greece between the EP and CoG, the Serbian Patriarchate retook the Church of Montenegro, etc..  Hence it is followed more than Constantinople's novel interpretation of canon 28 of Chalcedon.

ozgeorge said:
Innocent said:
I just think it gives the outward appearance of an American synod of sorts and it is not. It just saddens me to see what should be and is not.
It doesn't try to be an American Synod- that's not what it aims to do. It is a temporary situation until the matter can be resolved finally. To think of SCOBA as a Synod is nonsense. Who is the Primate of the Synod? What Orthodox Church anywhere in the world recognises it as a Synod? I think you guys need to start being more outward looking. The Orthodox Church is not bound in the East by New York and the west by California- you guys are part of something which spans the globe.
Well, unfortunately this is the part of the globe everyone else sees, the only place it seems where Orthodoxy is can't be totally dismissed as a quaint little ethnic thing the Balkans and East Europeans do.  I'm not crazy about that (I'm not a adherent to American Particularism, the latest edition of Manifest Destiny), but that it the way it is.  I hope it changes on a number of levels (some I don't).  Btw, the West is in Alaska and Hawaii (which is also under Moscow's jurisdiction from the days of the Kingdom).

Innocent's point is valid: certainly under Apostolic canon 34, this country should have a primate and synod, like every other Orthodox jurisdiction.
 

ialmisry

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ozgeorge said:
ialmisry said:
ozgeorge said:
Innocent said:
Does the EP consider the OCA uncanonical?
No. The Churches which do not recognise the autocephaly of the OCA do not consider it uncanonical. They simply consider it as not truly autocephalous.
The proof of this is that Bishop Jonah sits on the  Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas http://www.scoba.us/jurisdictions.html
Proof of what?
Read what you just quoted.
Hint: "The Churches which do not recognise the autocephaly of the OCA do not consider it uncanonical. "
I did, post corrected but you beat me to it.
 

ialmisry

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ozgeorge said:
ialmisry said:
ozgeorge said:
ialmisry said:
It was his canonical territory.
So I hope that you are in the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate or the OCA- you surely wouldn't choose to perpetuate this uncanonical situation of usurping a Bishop's canonical territory.
I was in his jurisdiction for just that reason, but had to transfer with my impending divorce: my ex's father confessor (Antiochian) the baptiser of my younger son (the first was baptised by another Antiochian priest at the OCA cathedral) wanted full authority to deal with the situation (as it turned out, he told my ex not to come back).  So I chose a little economy to take care of the concrete, immediate needs of my sons because I can't wait until the powers that be get their theoretical act together.

As for jurisdiction, my baptismal cross was blessed at St. George's in Constantinople  :eek:.
I dunno....this "picking and choosing jurisdictions" will be the end of Orthodoxy in the USA. ;)
There's a simple solution for that:
Canon XXXIV.  (XXXV.)

The bishops of every nation must acknowledge him who is first among them and account him as their head, and do nothing of consequence without his consent; but each may do those things only which concern his own parish, and the country places which belong to it.  But neither let him (who is the first) do anything without the consent of all; for so there will be unanimity, and God will be glorified through the Lord in the Holy Spirit.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xvii.iv.html

 

ozgeorge

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ialmisry said:
this country should have a primate and synod, like every other Orthodox jurisdiction.
Where have I disagreed with this?
The only thing I disagreed with is how some people think this is to be achieved.
 

ozgeorge

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Αριστοκλής said:
You EP bashers, as if the EP is all 10 or 11 churches not recognizing said autocephaly are welcomed to bicker among yourselves. I've zero interest in the topic.
If you've read it, Isa, then you well know it references that the church so created is NOT the only Orthodox jurisdiction in NA.
Weirdest wording I can imagine.
Please, amuse yourselves. I've better things to do on my day off.
Spot on as usual.
 

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ozgeorge said:
ialmisry said:
this country should have a primate and synod, like every other Orthodox jurisdiction.
Where have I disagreed with this?
The only thing I disagreed with is how some people think this is to be achieved.
As I said in the OP, my family couldn't wait.

And I do know and have seen those who think it NEVER should be achieved here.  Hence the stomping on Ligonier.
 

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ialmisry said:
ozgeorge said:
ialmisry said:
this country should have a primate and synod, like every other Orthodox jurisdiction.
Where have I disagreed with this?
The only thing I disagreed with is how some people think this is to be achieved.
As I said in the OP, my family couldn't wait.

And I do know and have seen those who think it NEVER should be achieved here.  Hence the stomping on Ligonier.
Who says the "stomping on Ligonier" was "never be achieved here" and not "shouldn't be attempted the way you've laid it out" or "shouldn't be attempted quite yet?"
 

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As was once pointed out to me when I posted the same section trying to make the same point, notice the Tomos only gives the OCA authority over those . . .

" who are presently part of the Metropolitanate, or who shall later enter the Metropolitanate; and over all parishes which now belong or later shall be accepted into the Metropolitanate."

So, how can this language be considered a grant of real autocephaly if OCA authority is limited in such a way?
 

ialmisry

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ROCORthodox said:
As was once pointed out to me when I posted the same section trying to make the same point, notice the Tomos only gives the OCA authority over those . . .

" who are presently part of the Metropolitanate, or who shall later enter the Metropolitanate; and over all parishes which now belong or later shall be accepted into the Metropolitanate."

So, how can this language be considered a grant of real autocephaly if OCA authority is limited in such a way?

Moscow and the Metropolia had already made the point that according to them, the Metropolia was the canonical Church: they didn't need to belabor the point (sort of like the Estonia agreement).  Moscow didn't want, I would take it, to get in any further argument with the other autocephalous Churches over their American branches, e.g. being accused of handing parishes over that were "not" Moscow's (as she has been accused of here).

I'd like to make a comparison with the ROCA documents, as it seems to comflict now with provisions of the tomos for the OCA.
 

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Aren't many canons just guidelines? I could be wrong, but it seems to me that it is possible that some of the Churches out there are just using them to justify their own continuing presence in the US. Why can't the OCA's presence be an exception to the canons? After all, exceptions have been made before, and they have even worked out well.
 

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cleveland said:
ialmisry said:
ozgeorge said:
ialmisry said:
this country should have a primate and synod, like every other Orthodox jurisdiction.
Where have I disagreed with this?
The only thing I disagreed with is how some people think this is to be achieved.
As I said in the OP, my family couldn't wait.

And I do know and have seen those who think it NEVER should be achieved here.  Hence the stomping on Ligonier.
Who says the "stomping on Ligonier" was "never be achieved here" and not "shouldn't be attempted the way you've laid it out" or "shouldn't be attempted quite yet?"
I remember the "troika" that was sent by the EP after Iakovos had been punished for Ligonier (in part, IIRC by elements of the Greek, i.e. Greece, press stating "never"), and the interplay that went on.

Btw, Greeks are not the only ones (for one thing, what have the others at Ligonier done?).  Just that many of the most brazen seem to be in the GOA.  Many of the most dedicated to Orthodox Unity and evangelism in the US are also Greek.

What epitomizes it for me is the "Greek Orthodox Encyclopedia" (I think that was its name), which refered to the very idea of been seperated from Constantinople as the most grevious tragedy or some such thing, stated that the situation in America was such that Greek did not have to be abandoned and should be retained, etc...

Compare the old charter:
ARTICLE I

Preamble
The Holy Archdiocese of North and South America, being by law a religious corporation under the name "Greek Orthodox Arch diocese of North and South America," is a province within the territorial jurisdiction of the most Holy Apostolic and Ecumenical Patriarchal Throne of Constantinople which is the first-ranking see of the body of the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Eastern Church whose head is Christ. The Archdiocese is governed by the holy canons, the present charter and the regulations promulgated by it and as to canonical and ecclesiastical matters not provided therein, by the decisions thereon of the Holy Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

The Archdiocese of North and South America serves all of the Orthodox living in the western hemisphere.

ARTICLE III

Jurisdiction
The Archdiocese of North and South America is by canonical and historical right under the supreme spiritual, ecclesiastical and canonical jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
With its replacement.

Article 1
Preamble and Canonical Jurisdiction

a.- The Holy Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (“Archdiocese”), with its headquarters located in the City of New York, New York, United States of America, is an Eparchy of the most Holy, Apostolic and Patriarchal Ecumenical Throne of Constantinople (“Ecumenical Patriarchate”), which is the first-ranking see of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church whose head is Christ.b.- The Archdiocese, being Hierarchical, as an Eparchy of the Ecumenical Throne, is governed by the Holy Scriptures, Sacred Tradition, the Holy Canons, this Charter, the Regulations promulgated pursuant hereto (“Regulations”), and as to canonical and ecclesiastical matters not provided for herein, by the decisions of the Holy and Sacred Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate (“Holy Synod”).

c.- The Archdiocese receives within its ranks and under its spiritual aegis and pastoral care Orthodox Christians, who either as individuals or as organized groups in Dioceses and Parishes have voluntarily come to it and which acknowledge the supreme spiritual, ecclesiastical and canonical jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. In the case of the coming to the Archdiocese of organized groups, either Orthodox or heterodox, the opinion and approval of the Ecumenical Patriarchate is required, as it exercises its ecclesiastical jurisdiction over the Orthodox in the Diaspora.

d.- The Archdiocese serves and pastors to the Orthodox Christians who live in the United States of America.
 

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88Devin12 said:
Aren't many canons just guidelines? I could be wrong, but it seems to me that it is possible that some of the Churches out there are just using them to justify their own continuing presence in the US. Why can't the OCA's presence be an exception to the canons? After all, exceptions have been made before, and they have even worked out well.
What exception is the OCA?  Nothing uncanonical about it.
 

88Devin12

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I was reading an article the other day that had a list of canons we supposedly break.
 

ialmisry

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88Devin12 said:
I was reading an article the other day that had a list of canons we supposedly break.
Such as? (you can skip the Chalcedon 28 argument, unless the article has a new angle).

Is it on line?
 

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Αριστοκλής said:
rwprof said:
When I see a topic I have no interest in, I don't even bother to read it, much less take the time and trouble to comment.
Such as this one?
I neither said nor implied that I had no interest in the topic, did I?


Fixed quote tags (and nothing more...)  -PtA
 

Aristocles

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rwprof said:
Αριστοκλής said:
rwprof said:
When I see a topic I have no interest in, I don't even bother to read it, much less take the time and trouble to comment.
Such as this one?
I neither said nor implied that I had no interest in the topic, did I?


Fixed quote tags (and nothing more...)  -PtA
Actually that implication was exactly what I perceived. My mistake. Glad you feel free to admonishment me, Your Eminence ....? who, exactly?
 

88Devin12

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It's on Wikipedia and Orthodoxwiki... Of course, one can't regard those as completely reliable sources...
 

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Αριστοκλής said:
Actually that implication was exactly what I perceived. My mistake. Glad you feel free to admonishment me, Your Eminence ....? who, exactly?
I will ignore the nasty slur. Let's see, I said:

When I see a topic I have no interest in, I don't even bother to read it, much less take the time and trouble to comment.
Yet, obviously, I was both reading it and commenting it. Therefore, I was not implying that I had no interest in the topic.


 

Aristocles

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rwprof said:
Αριστοκλής said:
Actually that implication was exactly what I perceived. My mistake. Glad you feel free to admonishment me, Your Eminence ....? who, exactly?
I will ignore the nasty slur. Let's see, I said:
You will? Apparently not.  :D
 

PeterTheAleut

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Okay, fellas, let's be civil here.
 

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Is the OCA the largest jurisdiction in America?
 

Elisha

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88Devin12 said:
Is the OCA the largest jurisdiction in America?
Of those numbers though, the OCA has nearly as many parishes as the GOA - just that they are generally a lot smaller.
 

BTRAKAS

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The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America is the largest, though its active membership has been dwindling for more than 15 years or so.  It has approximately 100,000 giving units, including individuals and family units, which, therefore, may mean the GOAA has 400,000 to 1/2 million faithful associated with a parish across the U.S.  The OCA was historically the second largest, but has probably been exceeded by the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America in the past decade, the OCA's membership having dropped and the AOCANA having increased.  The OCA probably has 80,000 among their active giving units of 25,000, possibly, which includes the Romanian, Bulgarian and Albanian jurisdictions within the OCA and Canadian members.  I do not have the AOCANA's numbers.  These numbers represent members of some level of participation, people who have chosen to have membership in a parish, whether active or not too actively participating.  These 3 jurisdictions represent the bulk of Orthodox Church membership in the U.S.A. 

The OCA has far more parishes than the GOAA; 700 in the OCA (again, including the jurisdictions and Canada as described above); 550 in the GOAA.

Numbers of Orthodox parishes across the U.S. range from estimates of 1,800 to 2,000.
 

Irish Hermit

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Basil 320 said:
I do not have the AOCANA's numbers.  These numbers represent members of some level of participation, people who have chosen to have membership in a parish, whether active or not too actively participating. 
This webpage at Helleniccomserve.com says that the AOCANA has 41,840 full members and an esimated total of 83,700.

http://www.helleniccomserve.com/OrthodoxStatistics.pdf
 

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Innocent said:
I thought the Russians were the first to bring Orthodoxy to America? Does that not give the Russian Church the right to grant autocephaly to its Church in its claimed boundaries?
Not so. Of course, that's the common story, but it's not based on a full reading of the sources. Recent scholarship has uncovered heretofore forgotten or ignored facts about the American Orthodox scene in the period 1890 to 1910. I'm thinking, for example, of a recent meeting of the Orthodox Theological Society in America, at which several papers were given on this topic. In short, even during St. Tikhon's time there was never Orthodox jurisdictional unity -- not on a formal level, or an informal one.

We are actually far more united nowadays because of larger institutions, better transportation, better communication, common language (English), common stories, pan-Orthodox initiatives on formal and informal levels, etc.
 

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pensateomnia said:
Innocent said:
I thought the Russians were the first to bring Orthodoxy to America? Does that not give the Russian Church the right to grant autocephaly to its Church in its claimed boundaries? 
Not so. Of course, that's the common story, but it's not based on a full reading of the sources. Recent scholarship has uncovered heretofore forgotten or ignored facts about the American Orthodox scene in the period 1890 to 1910. I'm thinking, for example, of a recent meeting of the Orthodox Theological Society in America, at which several papers were given on this topic. In short, even during St. Tikhon's time there was never Orthodox jurisdictional unity -- not on a formal level, or an informal one.

We are actually far more united nowadays because of larger institutions, better transportation, better communication, common language (English), common stories, pan-Orthodox initiatives on formal and informal levels, etc.
Is there any information about this online?  Maybe summaries of the papers, etc.?
 

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pensateomnia said:
Not so. Of course, that's the common story, but it's not based on a full reading of the sources. Recent scholarship has uncovered heretofore forgotten or ignored facts about the American Orthodox scene in the period 1890 to 1910.
What about the American Orthodox scene 100 years earlier?
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
pensateomnia said:
Not so. Of course, that's the common story, but it's not based on a full reading of the sources. Recent scholarship has uncovered heretofore forgotten or ignored facts about the American Orthodox scene in the period 1890 to 1910.
What about the American Orthodox scene 100 years earlier?
Define "American" at the time.  Actually, don't - I'm sure this debate has raged dozens of times on the site.  I think I just want to see documents.
 

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Were not the Bishops here all under the Russian Bishops unified or not? Was not Saint Rapheal under Saint Tikhon even though he was Arab? I don't think anyone is saying that there was a unified American Orthodox Church but there was some sort of order was there not?
 
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