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Orthodox equivalent for Mass

Amatorus

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Accoording to online, Masses are only held in Western Rite Orthodox jurisdictions. What is the equivalent in the Eastern Rite?

Historical question: When did the Western tradition of Mass diverge and separate from Orthodoxy? Gradual or suddenor there from the beginning?
 

JamesRottnek

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The equivalent is the Divine Liturgy.

"mass" just comes from the Latin for dismissal, and so was one of the last words heard during the mass.  Hence the name.
 

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Gradual....but there were differences from the beginning.  Many different rites of the Divine Liturgy have existed since early times...all with more or less a similar base structure.  The major shift for Rome came with the Carolingian renaissance in the 8th century and the influence of Alcuin of York and other Frankish "reformers."    At this time the Frankish synods put pressure on all Western churches to abandon their own rites (Celtic, Gallic, Mozarabic, etc.) and use only the "reformed: liturgy they were pushing in Latin only.  They were successful across most of Western Europe, with the exception of small areas which maintained the Mozarabic rite.  The Celtic and Gallic rites all but disappeared because of this.   

In many ways the split between East and West was precipitated by the pressure the West was putting on the East to give up their own traditions and liturgical rites.  They were able to do it by use of force in the West...and they tried in the East as well, but ultimately failed.

 

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The whole Mass vs. Liturgy. vs. Qurbono Qadisho vs. Soorp Badarak vs. Raza thing is a nominal distinction between different liturgical rites; they all refer to essentially the same thing.  Although if I had to pick one name, with apologies to my Syriac church, I would choose the Armenian "Soorp Badarak" as I like the sound.  :)

Note that the goal of my post is not to downplay the distinctions between liturgical rites, only to remark that all these names refer to the same sacramental service.
 

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AaronIsom said:
Gradual....but there were differences from the beginning.  Many different rites of the Divine Liturgy have existed since early times...all with more or less a similar base structure.  The major shift for Rome came with the Carolingian renaissance in the 8th century and the influence of Alcuin of York and other Frankish "reformers."    At this time the Frankish synods put pressure on all Western churches to abandon their own rites (Celtic, Gallic, Mozarabic, etc.) and use only the "reformed: liturgy they were pushing in Latin only.  They were successful across most of Western Europe, with the exception of small areas which maintained the Mozarabic rite.  The Celtic and Gallic rites all but disappeared because of this.   

In many ways the split between East and West was precipitated by the pressure the West was putting on the East to give up their own traditions and liturgical rites.  They were able to do it by use of force in the West...and they tried in the East as well, but ultimately failed.
Do you mean that in the Early Church in the West, liturgy was held in the vernacular, not Koine Greek or Latin? For example, Frankish or Brythonic?

The Mozarabic Rite always interested me. Is it actually held in the Mozarabic language? I can not find much clear information on it.

JamesRottnek said:
The equivalent is the Divine Liturgy.

"mass" just comes from the Latin for dismissal, and so was one of the last words heard during the mass.  Hence the name.
wgw said:
The whole Mass vs. Liturgy. vs. Qurbono Qadisho vs. Soorp Badarak vs. Raza thing is a nominal distinction between different liturgical rites; they all refer to essentially the same thing.  Although if I had to pick one name, with apologies to my Syriac church, I would choose the Armenian "Soorp Badarak" as I like the sound.  :)

Note that the goal of my post is not to downplay the distinctions between liturgical rites, only to remark that all these names refer to the same sacramental service.
But I've never heard "I'm going to Divine Liturgy" in casual conversation. I've heard Orthodox people say they're going to mass, but is that simply wrong or slang in this case? Or just "I'm going to Church" plainly is better?
 

DeniseDenise

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Amatorus said:
But I've never heard "I'm going to Divine Liturgy" in casual conversation. I've heard Orthodox people say they're going to mass, but is that simply wrong or slang in this case? Or just "I'm going to Church" plainly is better?

I don't know who you are hanging around....but lots of people say I am going Liturgy or Divine Liturgy.  I have never heard anyone use 'Mass' instead, but maybe that's a regional thing.
 

Amatorus

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DeniseDenise said:
Amatorus said:
But I've never heard "I'm going to Divine Liturgy" in casual conversation. I've heard Orthodox people say they're going to mass, but is that simply wrong or slang in this case? Or just "I'm going to Church" plainly is better?

I don't know who you are hanging around....but lots of people say I am going Liturgy or Divine Liturgy.  I have never heard anyone use 'Mass' instead, but maybe that's a regional thing.
Well, they're the kind of people who consider all Churches equal and will go to a Protestant or RC church depending on what is most convenient, when and if they attend.
 

DeniseDenise

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Amatorus said:
DeniseDenise said:
Amatorus said:
But I've never heard "I'm going to Divine Liturgy" in casual conversation. I've heard Orthodox people say they're going to mass, but is that simply wrong or slang in this case? Or just "I'm going to Church" plainly is better?

I don't know who you are hanging around....but lots of people say I am going Liturgy or Divine Liturgy.  I have never heard anyone use 'Mass' instead, but maybe that's a regional thing.
Well, they're the kind of people who consider all Churches equal and will go to a Protestant or RC church depending on what is most convenient, when and if they attend.
well then I wouldn't necessarily say 'I've heard Orthodox people say they're going to mass,' is accurate in describing things then...;)
 

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DeniseDenise said:
Amatorus said:
But I've never heard "I'm going to Divine Liturgy" in casual conversation. I've heard Orthodox people say they're going to mass, but is that simply wrong or slang in this case? Or just "I'm going to Church" plainly is better?

I don't know who you are hanging around....but lots of people say I am going Liturgy or Divine Liturgy.  I have never heard anyone use 'Mass' instead, but maybe that's a regional thing.
Here everybody say "Mass" ("Missa" actually). It's the same thing.

As someone wrote above, the name "mass" is a "nickname" people gave to the Latim Divine Liturgy due to the last words in Latin they heard by the end of the service.

Using "Mass" to refer to the Divine Liturgy is not wrong in itself. The worst that can happen is that a newcomer may expect something more like contemporary Roman masses and get very pleasantly surprised or abyssally bored. :)
 

wgw

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It is a shame "Ite, missa est" is no longer heard at the end of the Roman Rite usually (most priests use Eucharistic Prayer II with a different optional ending).
 

Amatorus

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wgw said:
It is a shame "Ite, missa est" is no longer heard at the end of the Roman Rite usually (most priests use Eucharistic Prayer II with a different optional ending).
Numquam ubi sub ubi.
 

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Do you mean that in the Early Church in the West, liturgy was held in the vernacular, not Koine Greek or Latin? For example, Frankish or Brythonic?

The Mozarabic Rite always interested me. Is it actually held in the Mozarabic language? I can not find much clear information on it.
Yes, the vernacular was always quite important across Orthodox Catholicism in both evangelism and liturgy until the Carolingian Renaissance and the usurpation of Bishoprics by the Merogovian-Carolingian Franks in the West.    One can go to Youtube and find recreations / restorations of the Celtic or Gallic rites.  I'm unsure what  the original Frankish rite was like, though it was likely very much like the Gallic rite.

An example of the attempt to impose this on the East came with the Frankish Bishops confronting Cyril and Methodius in their mission to the Slavs.  The Franks objected to the creation of the Cyrilic alphabet and to the Liturgy in any language other than the "Holy languages" of Greek, Latin or Hebrew.  The Greeks found this ludicrous.  Saint Methodius was arrested by the Franks and spent 2.5 years in prison in the West for his "crimes."  The Pope finally ordered him to be freed.

If you're interested in historical resources regarding these changes in the West, let me know.
 
 

Mor Ephrem

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wgw said:
It is a shame "Ite, missa est" is no longer heard at the end of the Roman Rite usually (most priests use Eucharistic Prayer II with a different optional ending).
The choice of Eucharistic Prayer has no bearing on the dismissal used.   
 

Mor Ephrem

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Amatorus said:
wgw said:
It is a shame "Ite, missa est" is no longer heard at the end of the Roman Rite usually (most priests use Eucharistic Prayer II with a different optional ending).
Numquam ubi sub ubi.
Please provide a translation.  Thank you.
 

Amatorus

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AaronIsom said:
Do you mean that in the Early Church in the West, liturgy was held in the vernacular, not Koine Greek or Latin? For example, Frankish or Brythonic?

The Mozarabic Rite always interested me. Is it actually held in the Mozarabic language? I can not find much clear information on it.
Yes, the vernacular was always quite important across Orthodox Catholicism in both evangelism and liturgy until the Carolingian Renaissance and the usurpation of Bishoprics by the Merogovian-Carolingian Franks in the West.    One can go to Youtube and find recreations / restorations of the Celtic or Gallic rites.  I'm unsure what  the original Frankish rite was like, though it was likely very much like the Gallic rite.

An example of the attempt to impose this on the East came with the Frankish Bishops confronting Cyril and Methodius in their mission to the Slavs.  The Franks objected to the creation of the Cyrilic alphabet and to the Liturgy in any language other than the "Holy languages" of Greek, Latin or Hebrew.  The Greeks found this ludicrous.  Saint Methodius was arrested by the Franks and spent 2.5 years in prison in the West for his "crimes."  The Pope finally ordered him to be freed.

If you're interested in historical resources regarding these changes in the West, let me know.
Funny, I was just reading yesterday about the incident with Saint Methodius. I think it was Wiching, a Frankish bishop who accused him of heresy for that. I wish they would have considered at least being somewhat lenient because many of these languages we have to reconstruct and know almost nothing about, like Frankish or Vulgar Latin. Look at this:

From the eighth century on, we can also find entire phrases which reflect the spoken language of this period and which allow us to catch a glimpse of the stage reached in this development. An early manuscript from Lyons has preserved a Latin song, to which the following refrain was added, to be sung by the people: Christi, resuveniad te de mi peccatore. The spelling is half-Latin for Christe, resubveniat te de me peccatore, but the construction is Romance (Fr. se ressouvenir de quelque chose). In Latin, one would have expected Christe, respice me peccatorem. Evidently, the scribe took the trouble to commit to parchment a phrase in the vernacular and attempted to Latinize the spelling but had to leave the construction as it was.

More interesting still are the parodistic words added in the eighth century in a manuscript of the Salic Law, where we read the phrase: ipsa cuppa frangant la tota, ad illo botiliario frangant lo cabo, at illo scanciono tollant lis potionis, which could be transcribed into Latin words (or semi-Latin): ipsam cupam frangant illam totam, ad illum butticularium frangant illum caput, ad illum scancionum tollant illas potiones, "let them break the whole drinking-cup, let them break the head of the wine steward, and let them take drinks from the cup-bearer." Here we find the definite articles la, lo, lis (that is les < las), the dative of reference and the Romance forms cuppa, botigliario, cabo.
http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Latin_Medieval/Dag_Norberg/02.html

EDIT: 1000th post!
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Amatorus said:
wgw said:
It is a shame "Ite, missa est" is no longer heard at the end of the Roman Rite usually (most priests use Eucharistic Prayer II with a different optional ending).
Numquam ubi sub ubi.
Please provide a translation.  Thank you.
"Never where under where"
 

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Amatorus said:
Accoording to online, Masses are only held in Western Rite Orthodox jurisdictions. What is the equivalent in the Eastern Rite?

Historical question: When did the Western tradition of Mass diverge and separate from Orthodoxy? Gradual or suddenor there from the beginning?
Reading the Constance Garnett translation of The Borthers Karamazov I found it annoying that she translated what should have been "Divine Liturgy" as "Mass", but it got the job done.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
wgw said:
It is a shame "Ite, missa est" is no longer heard at the end of the Roman Rite usually (most priests use Eucharistic Prayer II with a different optional ending).
The choice of Eucharistic Prayer has no bearing on the dismissal used. 
Indeed, I should have written "most priests use a different alternate ending; they also favor Eucharistic Prayer II over Eucharitic Prayer I, which more closely resembles the Roman Canon."

Alas, I did not.
 

Mor Ephrem

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wgw said:
Amatorus said:
Iconodule said:
Amatorus said:
Accoording to online
According to what I read online*
Even scholarly textbooks on the liturgy are not devoid of error.
True.  Even my beloved Fr Robert Taft gets certain basic things wrong now and then in his books.  They rarely have any bearing on his arguments, but they are still wrong. 
 

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Amatorus said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Amatorus said:
wgw said:
It is a shame "Ite, missa est" is no longer heard at the end of the Roman Rite usually (most priests use Eucharistic Prayer II with a different optional ending).
Numquam ubi sub ubi.
Please provide a translation.  Thank you.
"Never where under where"
I looked it up on Google translate and got "I never wear underwear".
 

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hecma925 said:
Amatorus said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Amatorus said:
wgw said:
It is a shame "Ite, missa est" is no longer heard at the end of the Roman Rite usually (most priests use Eucharistic Prayer II with a different optional ending).
Numquam ubi sub ubi.
Please provide a translation.  Thank you.
"Never where under where"
I looked it up on Google translate and got "I never wear underwear".
Never EVER use Google Translate for Latin or most languages actually. The grammar, pronunciation, everything is horrible.

Anyway the sentence is a pun.
Nunquam - never
Ubi - where
Sub - under
Ubi - where
 

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Amatorus said:
hecma925 said:
Amatorus said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Amatorus said:
wgw said:
It is a shame "Ite, missa est" is no longer heard at the end of the Roman Rite usually (most priests use Eucharistic Prayer II with a different optional ending).
Numquam ubi sub ubi.
Please provide a translation.  Thank you.
"Never where under where"
I looked it up on Google translate and got "I never wear underwear".
Never EVER use Google Translate for Latin or most languages actually. The grammar, pronunciation, everything is horrible.

Anyway the sentence is a pun.
Nunquam - never
Ubi - where
Sub - under
Ubi - where
Uh, it's a common pun...It actually predates the internet, and even computers. It was a funny joke in Latin class my freshman year in High School back in the dark ages of the 1960's. (Yikes that was a long, long time ago in a galaxy far away.... )
 

Amatorus

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podkarpatska said:
Amatorus said:
hecma925 said:
Amatorus said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Amatorus said:
wgw said:
It is a shame "Ite, missa est" is no longer heard at the end of the Roman Rite usually (most priests use Eucharistic Prayer II with a different optional ending).
Numquam ubi sub ubi.
Please provide a translation.  Thank you.
"Never where under where"
I looked it up on Google translate and got "I never wear underwear".
Never EVER use Google Translate for Latin or most languages actually. The grammar, pronunciation, everything is horrible.

Anyway the sentence is a pun.
Nunquam - never
Ubi - where
Sub - under
Ubi - where
Uh, it's a common pun...It actually predates the internet, and even computers. It was a funny joke in Latin class my freshman year in High School back in the dark ages of the 1960's. (Yikes that was a long, long time ago in a galaxy far away.... )
Older than Feudalism :(
 

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Fabio Leite said:
DeniseDenise said:
Amatorus said:
But I've never heard "I'm going to Divine Liturgy" in casual conversation. I've heard Orthodox people say they're going to mass, but is that simply wrong or slang in this case? Or just "I'm going to Church" plainly is better?

I don't know who you are hanging around....but lots of people say I am going Liturgy or Divine Liturgy.  I have never heard anyone use 'Mass' instead, but maybe that's a regional thing.
Here everybody say "Mass" ("Missa" actually). It's the same thing.

As someone wrote above, the name "mass" is a "nickname" people gave to the Latim Divine Liturgy due to the last words in Latin they heard by the end of the service.

Using "Mass" to refer to the Divine Liturgy is not wrong in itself. The worst that can happen is that a newcomer may expect something more like contemporary Roman masses and get very pleasantly surprised or abyssally bored. :)
The Lebanese folks in my former parish all called it "Mass."
 

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Amatorus said:
Never EVER use Google Translate for Latin or most languages actually. The grammar, pronunciation, everything is horrible.
::)
 

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Amatorus said:
Never EVER use Google Translate for Latin or most languages actually. The grammar, pronunciation, everything is horrible.
And what's wrong with an Italianate reading of Latin?
 

Amatorus

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Cavaradossi said:
Amatorus said:
Never EVER use Google Translate for Latin or most languages actually. The grammar, pronunciation, everything is horrible.
And what's wrong with an Italianate reading of Latin?
I said everything is wrong, and the Classical pronunciation actually makes sense. Venny Veedee Veechee sounds wrong.
 

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Amatorus said:
podkarpatska said:
Amatorus said:
hecma925 said:
Amatorus said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Amatorus said:
wgw said:
It is a shame "Ite, missa est" is no longer heard at the end of the Roman Rite usually (most priests use Eucharistic Prayer II with a different optional ending).
Numquam ubi sub ubi.
Please provide a translation.  Thank you.
"Never where under where"
I looked it up on Google translate and got "I never wear underwear".
Never EVER use Google Translate for Latin or most languages actually. The grammar, pronunciation, everything is horrible.

Anyway the sentence is a pun.
Nunquam - never
Ubi - where
Sub - under
Ubi - where
Uh, it's a common pun...It actually predates the internet, and even computers. It was a funny joke in Latin class my freshman year in High School back in the dark ages of the 1960's. (Yikes that was a long, long time ago in a galaxy far away.... )
Older than Feudalism :(
Indeed, the joke is so old, I expect it predates the Latin language.  :p
 

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Cavaradossi said:
Amatorus said:
Never EVER use Google Translate for Latin or most languages actually. The grammar, pronunciation, everything is horrible.
And what's wrong with an Italianate reading of Latin?
I mention it because I was reminded of a dear and old friend of mine who is a Latin professor. His reaction to the film, Passion of the Christ  didn't deal with the violence and graphic portrayal of Christ's agony, but rather he cringed at the Italianate modern pronunciation of Latin. Not that I could quite figure out how  he knew the way it was spoken in the first century...he's not that old...
 

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podkarpatska said:
Cavaradossi said:
Amatorus said:
Never EVER use Google Translate for Latin or most languages actually. The grammar, pronunciation, everything is horrible.
And what's wrong with an Italianate reading of Latin?
I mention it because I was reminded of a dear and old friend of mine who is a Latin professor. His reaction to the film, Passion of the Christ  didn't deal with the violence and graphic portrayal of Christ's agony, but rather he cringed at the Italianate modern pronunciation of Latin. Not that I could quite figure out how  he knew the way it was spoken in the first century...he's not that old...
-Spend tons of money hiring historians and linguists recreating 1st-century Aramaic

-Don't bother using Classical prnounciation

I'll admit the "v" sounds better than "w" maybe that's why.
 

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Amatorus said:
Cavaradossi said:
Amatorus said:
Never EVER use Google Translate for Latin or most languages actually. The grammar, pronunciation, everything is horrible.
And what's wrong with an Italianate reading of Latin?
I said everything is wrong, and the Classical pronunciation actually makes sense. Venny Veedee Veechee sounds wrong.
See, this is something that I will never understand about people who think themselves to love the classics. They have this idiotic tendency to fetishize the reconstruction of how a language might have sounded at one point in its development and from there claim that any living tradition for the recitation of that language must be "wrong". The Italianate reading of Latin is no more "wrong" for having palatized 'c' to 'ch' before 'i' and 'e', for example, than Classical Latin is "wrong" for having merged the 'ei' diphthong of Old Latin with long i. Was Cicero "wrong" in that he pronounced the Old Latin "duenos" as "bonus" or the Old Latin "honosis" (likely pronounced as honozis) as "honoris"? Was Caesar "wrong" for having pronounced neuter nouns like "saxom" as "saxum" and masculines like "filios" as "filius" or for having used an innovative plural genitive ending in the second declension by analogy to the first declension (such that the original "saxom" and "filiom" became "saxorum" and "filiorum")? Or perhaps, the reverse is true? Perhaps the Old Latins were "wrong" for not having changed their language into Classical Latin yet? Better yet, why even bother at all with Latin? Why not just fetishize reconstructed Proto-Indo-European and insist that anybody who doesn't pronounce "filius" as "dʰeh₁y-li-os" is saying it wrong?
 

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Cavaradossi said:
Amatorus said:
Cavaradossi said:
Amatorus said:
Never EVER use Google Translate for Latin or most languages actually. The grammar, pronunciation, everything is horrible.
And what's wrong with an Italianate reading of Latin?
I said everything is wrong, and the Classical pronunciation actually makes sense. Venny Veedee Veechee sounds wrong.
See, this is something that I will never understand about people who think themselves to love the classics. They have this idiotic tendency to fetishize the reconstruction of how a language might have sounded at one point in its development and from there claim that any living tradition for the recitation of that language must be "wrong". The Italianate reading of Latin is no more "wrong" for having palatized 'c' to 'ch' before 'i' and 'e', for example, than Classical Latin is "wrong" for having merged the 'ei' diphthong of Old Latin with long i. Was Cicero "wrong" in that he pronounced the Old Latin "duenos" as "bonus" or the Old Latin "honosis" (likely pronounced as honozis) as "honoris"? Was Caesar "wrong" for having pronounced neuter nouns like "saxom" as "saxum" and masculines like "filios" as "filius" or for having used an innovative plural genitive ending in the second declension by analogy to the first declension (such that the original "saxom" and "filiom" became "saxorum" and "filiorum")? Or perhaps, the reverse is true? Perhaps the Old Latins were "wrong" for not having changed their language into Classical Latin yet? Better yet, why even bother at all with Latin? Why not just fetishize reconstructed Proto-Indo-European and insist that anybody who doesn't pronounce "filius" as "dʰeh₁y-li-os" is saying it wrong?
*Denise Swoons*


oh man....that is the sound of lovely music to my linguist ears. 

and you get massive bonus points for the pronunciation breakdown, giving the no IPA here.....Axios!
 

Cavaradossi

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DeniseDenise said:
Cavaradossi said:
Amatorus said:
Cavaradossi said:
Amatorus said:
Never EVER use Google Translate for Latin or most languages actually. The grammar, pronunciation, everything is horrible.
And what's wrong with an Italianate reading of Latin?
I said everything is wrong, and the Classical pronunciation actually makes sense. Venny Veedee Veechee sounds wrong.
See, this is something that I will never understand about people who think themselves to love the classics. They have this idiotic tendency to fetishize the reconstruction of how a language might have sounded at one point in its development and from there claim that any living tradition for the recitation of that language must be "wrong". The Italianate reading of Latin is no more "wrong" for having palatized 'c' to 'ch' before 'i' and 'e', for example, than Classical Latin is "wrong" for having merged the 'ei' diphthong of Old Latin with long i. Was Cicero "wrong" in that he pronounced the Old Latin "duenos" as "bonus" or the Old Latin "honosis" (likely pronounced as honozis) as "honoris"? Was Caesar "wrong" for having pronounced neuter nouns like "saxom" as "saxum" and masculines like "filios" as "filius" or for having used an innovative plural genitive ending in the second declension by analogy to the first declension (such that the original "saxom" and "filiom" became "saxorum" and "filiorum")? Or perhaps, the reverse is true? Perhaps the Old Latins were "wrong" for not having changed their language into Classical Latin yet? Better yet, why even bother at all with Latin? Why not just fetishize reconstructed Proto-Indo-European and insist that anybody who doesn't pronounce "filius" as "dʰeh₁y-li-os" is saying it wrong?
*Denise Swoons*


oh man....that is the sound of lovely music to my linguist ears. 

and you get massive bonus points for the pronunciation breakdown, giving the no IPA here.....Axios!
I used to have an IPA keyboard enabled on my old computer, but it was such a hassle that I never reinstalled it on my new one. I could never remember where all of the symbols were. I'm better off using a web applet to transcribe things by clicking on the symbols I need :laugh:
 

Mor Ephrem

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Cavaradossi said:
Amatorus said:
Cavaradossi said:
Amatorus said:
Never EVER use Google Translate for Latin or most languages actually. The grammar, pronunciation, everything is horrible.
And what's wrong with an Italianate reading of Latin?
I said everything is wrong, and the Classical pronunciation actually makes sense. Venny Veedee Veechee sounds wrong.
See, this is something that I will never understand about people who think themselves to love the classics. They have this idiotic tendency to fetishize the reconstruction of how a language might have sounded at one point in its development and from there claim that any living tradition for the recitation of that language must be "wrong". The Italianate reading of Latin is no more "wrong" for having palatized 'c' to 'ch' before 'i' and 'e', for example, than Classical Latin is "wrong" for having merged the 'ei' diphthong of Old Latin with long i. Was Cicero "wrong" in that he pronounced the Old Latin "duenos" as "bonus" or the Old Latin "honosis" (likely pronounced as honozis) as "honoris"? Was Caesar "wrong" for having pronounced neuter nouns like "saxom" as "saxum" and masculines like "filios" as "filius" or for having used an innovative plural genitive ending in the second declension by analogy to the first declension (such that the original "saxom" and "filiom" became "saxorum" and "filiorum")? Or perhaps, the reverse is true? Perhaps the Old Latins were "wrong" for not having changed their language into Classical Latin yet? Better yet, why even bother at all with Latin? Why not just fetishize reconstructed Proto-Indo-European and insist that anybody who doesn't pronounce "filius" as "dʰeh₁y-li-os" is saying it wrong?
 

Amatorus

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Cavaradossi said:
Amatorus said:
Cavaradossi said:
Amatorus said:
Never EVER use Google Translate for Latin or most languages actually. The grammar, pronunciation, everything is horrible.
And what's wrong with an Italianate reading of Latin?
I said everything is wrong, and the Classical pronunciation actually makes sense. Venny Veedee Veechee sounds wrong.
See, this is something that I will never understand about people who think themselves to love the classics. They have this idiotic tendency to fetishize the reconstruction of how a language might have sounded at one point in its development and from there claim that any living tradition for the recitation of that language must be "wrong". The Italianate reading of Latin is no more "wrong" for having palatized 'c' to 'ch' before 'i' and 'e', for example, than Classical Latin is "wrong" for having merged the 'ei' diphthong of Old Latin with long i. Was Cicero "wrong" in that he pronounced the Old Latin "duenos" as "bonus" or the Old Latin "honosis" (likely pronounced as honozis) as "honoris"? Was Caesar "wrong" for having pronounced neuter nouns like "saxom" as "saxum" and masculines like "filios" as "filius" or for having used an innovative plural genitive ending in the second declension by analogy to the first declension (such that the original "saxom" and "filiom" became "saxorum" and "filiorum")? Or perhaps, the reverse is true? Perhaps the Old Latins were "wrong" for not having changed their language into Classical Latin yet? Better yet, why even bother at all with Latin? Why not just fetishize reconstructed Proto-Indo-European and insist that anybody who doesn't pronounce "filius" as "dʰeh₁y-li-os" is saying it wrong?
I was expecting thisa kind of response. This is fallacious because this line of thinking quickly devolves into relativism and eventually nihilism. Why fetishize language at all? It's just disgusting sounds made by the flapping of our bacteria-covered, mushy organs making contact with tissue and exposed skeletal fringes, and the expansion and contracting of vocal chords. Actions are more important, and even that's relative when we all die in the end.

There needs to be a point for standards to be firmly planted, or the foundation will crumble and everything slides into aq vacuum ending in meaninglessness. Classical pronunciation coincides with the Golden Age of the Romans; just like formal settings prefer a higher, sometimes dated standard of English compared to "YOLO swag blaze it tho my points be on fleek". The Romans would consider Italianate pronunciation to be barbarian.
 
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