Orthodox vs Catholic Debate

[akimel]

I've always felt that the International Orthodox-Roman Catholic dialogue should issue papers of the debates between the churches, forthrightly, yet respectfully articulating the positions of both churches.

I agree. I'm not sure why the Orthodox-Catholic dialogue have not published the various papers written and discussed by members of the dialogue teams.  The American Catholic and Lutheran dialogue, e.g., have published many of their papers.  The papers are always of greater interest than the consensus statements. 

 

[BTRAKAS]

I had a discussion with a devout, practicing Roman Catholic who asked me how can three words, "and the Son," be such a stumbling block between the churches? 

Yeah, I've heard that too, usually accompanied by a "for crying out loud".

Three words? Heh. Let's not forget that a single letter was the difference between Orthodoxy and Arian heresy.  olice:

Excellent point, which I will appropriate next time I'm confronted with this inquiry.

 

[PJ]

Are there even Roman Catholics out there anymore who take their beliefs seriously enough to actually debate Orthodoxy instead of taking the ecumenical approach? From my experience with Roman Catholics in person, they seem very ecumenical and somewhat uninformed upon our differences when I tell them that I am Orthodox.

Why not read the books I linked to?  :angel:

Well, Fortescue has long since passed away, and there does seem to be an appreciable loss of quality in Roman Catholic apologetics these days.

I agree. The RC's are quite scared that they'll slow down the ecumenical process if they write apologetics against Orthodoxy. And besides, to take on Orthodoxy one would need a lot of historical, theological and philosophical knowledge. Protestantism is a much easier target.

That's an interesting comment for an Orthodox board.

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.

(That's from a conversation last year about Eastern Europe. When I objected, another Orthodox poster, Schultz, responded by starting a rumor about me, that I believe "that Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church" (yes, you read that right). When asked about it, he said "As for how I came to this, your words in this very thread" but wouldn't be any more specific than that, despite weeks of requesting that he do so. Visit that thread if you want to read more of the flak I got from Orthodox posters.)

 

[Asteriktos]

Perhaps I am not following the thread (in question) closely enough, but I don't think any lasting animosity need remain from that. Schultz is a bit acerbic at times, but nonetheless a stand up guy. When he resigned as mod of the Catholic section I don't remember only positive comments from every side regarding the job he had done. I say this not to say you're wrong, only that I'd hate for this thing to be an obstacle moving forward, even in discussions with Schultz himself. I guess maybe it's corny to play peace keeper, but that's my 2 cents.

 

[PJ]

Perhaps I am not following the thread (in question) closely enough, but I don't think any lasting animosity need remain from that. Schultz is a bit acerbic at times, but nonetheless a stand up guy. When he resigned as mod of the Catholic section I don't remember only positive comments from every side regarding the job he had done. I say this not to say you're wrong, only that I'd hate for this thing to be an obstacle moving forward, even in discussions with Schultz himself. I guess maybe it's corny to play peace keeper, but that's my 2 cents.

It's not corny, but it's pretty predictable. Basically the usual If-you-have-a-problem,then-you-must-be-reading-in-something-that-isn't-there-or etc. etc. Forgive me for saying that it has gotten a little old.

 

[domNoah]

Are there even Roman Catholics out there anymore who take their beliefs seriously enough to actually debate Orthodoxy instead of taking the ecumenical approach? From my experience with Roman Catholics in person, they seem very ecumenical and somewhat uninformed upon our differences when I tell them that I am Orthodox.

Well, there's two approaches Catholics make.  One is the, "we're the same faith expressed differently and only politics separates us."  The other is, "you are heretic schismatics and everything you say is false because you are not in communion with the Pope."

I am Catholic and I don't take that approach.

 

[username!]

Are there even Roman Catholics out there anymore who take their beliefs seriously enough to actually debate Orthodoxy instead of taking the ecumenical approach? From my experience with Roman Catholics in person, they seem very ecumenical and somewhat uninformed upon our differences when I tell them that I am Orthodox.

Well, there's two approaches Catholics make.  One is the, "we're the same faith expressed differently and only politics separates us."  The other is, "you are heretic schismatics and everything you say is false because you are not in communion with the Pope."

I am Catholic and I don't take that approach.

Pray tell Noah are you a dominican brother?

 

[Asteriktos]

Perhaps I am not following the thread (in question) closely enough, but I don't think any lasting animosity need remain from that. Schultz is a bit acerbic at times, but nonetheless a stand up guy. When he resigned as mod of the Catholic section I don't remember only positive comments from every side regarding the job he had done. I say this not to say you're wrong, only that I'd hate for this thing to be an obstacle moving forward, even in discussions with Schultz himself. I guess maybe it's corny to play peace keeper, but that's my 2 cents.

It's not corny, but it's pretty predictable. Basically the usual If-you-have-a-problem,then-you-must-be-reading-in-something-that-isn't-there-or etc. etc. Forgive me for saying that it has gotten a little old.

I apologize, my post was not meant to be of the "you're wrong and he's right" type, or to imply something along the lines of "you're seeing things that aren't there". I just meant that he was a good guy and it seemed like it'd just be good to not worry about past issues like that.

 

[PJ]

Well said.

Oh, wait, for a second I thought we were talking about the Fourth Crusade.  :laugh:

 

[PJ]

I'm sure many on this thread will remember the thread called (I think) "Why do Protestants convert to Orthodoxy rather than Catholicism?" That title makes it sound like Catholics don't do very well in relation to protestants; but I believe we do -- not withstanding the obvious differences and painful memories, because we don't take an attitude of, Let's pray that protestants be kept away from [fill in Catholic places].

 

[domNoah]

Are there even Roman Catholics out there anymore who take their beliefs seriously enough to actually debate Orthodoxy instead of taking the ecumenical approach? From my experience with Roman Catholics in person, they seem very ecumenical and somewhat uninformed upon our differences when I tell them that I am Orthodox.

Well, there's two approaches Catholics make.  One is the, "we're the same faith expressed differently and only politics separates us."  The other is, "you are heretic schismatics and everything you say is false because you are not in communion with the Pope."

I am Catholic and I don't take that approach.

Pray tell Noah are you a dominican brother?

No, I am brother in the CPMO. 

 

[choy]

Are there even Roman Catholics out there anymore who take their beliefs seriously enough to actually debate Orthodoxy instead of taking the ecumenical approach? From my experience with Roman Catholics in person, they seem very ecumenical and somewhat uninformed upon our differences when I tell them that I am Orthodox.

Well, there's two approaches Catholics make.  One is the, "we're the same faith expressed differently and only politics separates us."  The other is, "you are heretic schismatics and everything you say is false because you are not in communion with the Pope."

I am Catholic and I don't take that approach.

Good for you.  There is a priest I know who operates an apologetics blog which is essentially a blog to berate anyone who is not Catholic.

 

[Cyrillic]

Are there some good, modern RC apologetics against Ortodoxy out there that someone could link me to? Something with divorce, contraception or a long list of quotes in it doesn't count.

 

[J Michael]

Are there even Roman Catholics out there anymore who take their beliefs seriously enough to actually debate Orthodoxy instead of taking the ecumenical approach? From my experience with Roman Catholics in person, they seem very ecumenical and somewhat uninformed upon our differences when I tell them that I am Orthodox.

Well, there's two approaches Catholics make.  One is the, "we're the same faith expressed differently and only politics separates us."  The other is, "you are heretic schismatics and everything you say is false because you are not in communion with the Pope."

I am Catholic and I don't take that approach.

Pray tell Noah are you a dominican brother?

No, I am brother in the CPMO. 

???

Is that the Corporate Project Management Office? ;D

Or...Christi Pauperum Militum Ordo?

Not that I know the difference  8) 8).

 

[domNoah]

Are there even Roman Catholics out there anymore who take their beliefs seriously enough to actually debate Orthodoxy instead of taking the ecumenical approach? From my experience with Roman Catholics in person, they seem very ecumenical and somewhat uninformed upon our differences when I tell them that I am Orthodox.

Well, there's two approaches Catholics make.  One is the, "we're the same faith expressed differently and only politics separates us."  The other is, "you are heretic schismatics and everything you say is false because you are not in communion with the Pope."

I am Catholic and I don't take that approach.

Pray tell Noah are you a dominican brother?

No, I am brother in the CPMO. 

???

Is that the Corporate Project Management Office? ;D

Or...Christi Pauperum Militum Ordo?

Not that I know the difference  8) 8).

Christi Pauperum Militum Ordo, we also go by the Milita Templi.
We are the only Canonically recognized "Knights Templar", we do not claim to be descended from the Ancient Order but our Rule of Life is based off the ancient rule.

Here is a mostly accurate article on us in Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_Templi

 

[biro]

Well said.

Oh, wait, for a second I thought we were talking about the Fourth Crusade.  :laugh:

If you don't like the weather, wait five minutes.

 

[Jetavan]

Are there even Roman Catholics out there anymore who take their beliefs seriously enough to actually debate Orthodoxy instead of taking the ecumenical approach? From my experience with Roman Catholics in person, they seem very ecumenical and somewhat uninformed upon our differences when I tell them that I am Orthodox.

Well, there's two approaches Catholics make.  One is the, "we're the same faith expressed differently and only politics separates us."  The other is, "you are heretic schismatics and everything you say is false because you are not in communion with the Pope."

I am Catholic and I don't take that approach.

Good for you.  There is a priest I know who operates an apologetics blog which is essentially a blog to berate anyone who is not Catholic.

Father Z?

 

[PJ]

Are there even Roman Catholics out there anymore who take their beliefs seriously enough to actually debate Orthodoxy instead of taking the ecumenical approach? From my experience with Roman Catholics in person, they seem very ecumenical and somewhat uninformed upon our differences when I tell them that I am Orthodox.

Well, there's two approaches Catholics make.  One is the, "we're the same faith expressed differently and only politics separates us."  The other is, "you are heretic schismatics and everything you say is false because you are not in communion with the Pope."

I am Catholic and I don't take that approach.

Good for you.  There is a priest I know who operates an apologetics blog which is essentially a blog to berate anyone who is not Catholic.

Father Z?

That's who you thought of?

 

[choy]

Father Z?

No.  This one is anti-sspx though he is pro-tradition.

 

[Jetavan]

Are there even Roman Catholics out there anymore who take their beliefs seriously enough to actually debate Orthodoxy instead of taking the ecumenical approach? From my experience with Roman Catholics in person, they seem very ecumenical and somewhat uninformed upon our differences when I tell them that I am Orthodox.

Well, there's two approaches Catholics make.  One is the, "we're the same faith expressed differently and only politics separates us."  The other is, "you are heretic schismatics and everything you say is false because you are not in communion with the Pope."

I am Catholic and I don't take that approach.

Good for you.  There is a priest I know who operates an apologetics blog which is essentially a blog to berate anyone who is not Catholic.

Father Z?

That's who you thought of?

He's quite a character. Sort of a Barney Rubble meets Chronicles of Riddick.

 

[PJ]

Are there even Roman Catholics out there anymore who take their beliefs seriously enough to actually debate Orthodoxy instead of taking the ecumenical approach? From my experience with Roman Catholics in person, they seem very ecumenical and somewhat uninformed upon our differences when I tell them that I am Orthodox.

Well, there's two approaches Catholics make.  One is the, "we're the same faith expressed differently and only politics separates us."  The other is, "you are heretic schismatics and everything you say is false because you are not in communion with the Pope."

I am Catholic and I don't take that approach.

Good for you.  There is a priest I know who operates an apologetics blog which is essentially a blog to berate anyone who is not Catholic.

Father Z?

That's who you thought of?

He's quite a character. Sort of a Barney Rubble meets Chronicles of Riddick.

It had been a little while since I read his blog, so I said to myself "If I'm going to defend him, better brush up a little first." Just looking at the titles of his recent bloggings didn't grab my attention, so then I googled eastern site:wdtprs.com/blog/

At the top of the list was "Bartholomew I to Eastern Catholics: return to Orthodoxy without ...". I was intrigued enough to click on the link to find out what the rest of the title was, (wondering if it was "without looking back" or something).

Then when I saw the full title I thought "Oh, not that old business." But that's not to say that I'm giving up on defending him. (And of course, Fr. Z doesn't control which result Google puts at the top. )

 

[LBK]

From the abovementioned blog:

[size=10pt][size=10pt]
Also, it is evident now that the Orthodox, for whom identity and liturgy are so very closely aligned, are fully aware that they will be soon pressed hard indeed by Islam.  Therefore, a stronger friendship with Rome, in the culture/identity/survival struggle to come will be of great benefit.[/size][/size]

Fr Z seems to have forgotten the small matter of Ottoman conquest of most of Orthodox Europe for a good four centuries. Islam did not, and could not, destroy Orthodoxy, any more than Soviet atheism could.

 

[Shanghaiski]

From the abovementioned blog:

[size=10pt][size=10pt]
Also, it is evident now that the Orthodox, for whom identity and liturgy are so very closely aligned, are fully aware that they will be soon pressed hard indeed by Islam.  Therefore, a stronger friendship with Rome, in the culture/identity/survival struggle to come will be of great benefit.[/size][/size]

Fr Z seems to have forgotten the small matter of Ottoman conquest of most of Orthodox Europe for a good four centuries. Islam did not, and could not, destroy Orthodoxy, any more than Soviet atheism could.

And a fat lot of good "a stronger friendship with Rome" did us at those times we tried rapprochement after the schism to fight the Turks and Mohammedans. The papacy has always thought more of its spiritual and temporal power than could ever be demonstrated in reality.

 

[PJ]

Reading Fr Z's blog has reminded of something else: it always seems a trifle strange to me when traditionalist Catholics cite Fr. Taft against the Orthodox. I mean, isn't Taft super liberal, at least from the traditionalist Catholic pov?

 

[choy]

Reading Fr Z's blog has reminded of something else: it always seems a trifle strange to me when traditionalist Catholics cite Fr. Taft against the Orthodox. I mean, isn't Taft super liberal, at least from the traditionalist Catholic pov?

In what sense?

Maybe in the same sense that traddies say that the Mass should only be in Latin, but won't complain about an English Divine Liturgy.

 

[Jules_Grant]

Reading Fr Z's blog has reminded of something else: it always seems a trifle strange to me when traditionalist Catholics cite Fr. Taft against the Orthodox. I mean, isn't Taft super liberal, at least from the traditionalist Catholic pov?

In what sense?

Maybe in the same sense that traddies say that the Mass should only be in Latin, but won't complain about an English Divine Liturgy.

When I attended a Roman Catholic church as one, I never heard the mass in Latin. Personally, in the Eastern Catholic church, the Divine Liturgy is far more beautiful and rich than the highest solemn mass at the Vatican (I've seen many).

I happen to feel traditionalist Catholics focus on the differences, not the similarities towards the faiths. East and West are simply liturgically, but we all grew out of similar doctrine.

 

[PJ]

Reading Fr Z's blog has reminded of something else: it always seems a trifle strange to me when traditionalist Catholics cite Fr. Taft against the Orthodox. I mean, isn't Taft super liberal, at least from the traditionalist Catholic pov?

In what sense?

Good question ... general liberalness, I guess (don't quote me on that).

Maybe in the same sense that traddies say that the Mass should only be in Latin, but won't complain about an English Divine Liturgy.

Maybe.

 

[PJ]

But that's not to say that I'm giving up on defending him.

Well ... maybe I am.

I just finished reading this page, The Russians aren’t coming! The Russians aren’t coming! At the risk of sounding cliche, I have to say: Wow. (No, I don't mean "Wow, the Russian are not coming?" but wow at what's said on that page. Don't read it if you're highly sensitive or have a weak heart.  8))

 

[username!]

But that's not to say that I'm giving up on defending him.

Well ... maybe I am.

I just finished reading this page, The Russians aren’t coming! The Russians aren’t coming! At the risk of sounding cliche, I have to say: Wow. (No, I don't mean "Wow, the Russian are not coming?" but wow at what's said on that page. Don't read it if you're highly sensitive or have a weak heart.  8))

The worst part of the link was reading people's opinions in which they consider themselves experts on but yet insist on calling Ukraine "the Ukraine".  Gruff!

 

[username!]

Are there even Roman Catholics out there anymore who take their beliefs seriously enough to actually debate Orthodoxy instead of taking the ecumenical approach? From my experience with Roman Catholics in person, they seem very ecumenical and somewhat uninformed upon our differences when I tell them that I am Orthodox.

Well, there's two approaches Catholics make.  One is the, "we're the same faith expressed differently and only politics separates us."  The other is, "you are heretic schismatics and everything you say is false because you are not in communion with the Pope."

I am Catholic and I don't take that approach.

Pray tell Noah are you a dominican brother?

No, I am brother in the CPMO. 

???

Is that the Corporate Project Management Office? ;D

Or...Christi Pauperum Militum Ordo?

Not that I know the difference  8) 8).

Christi Pauperum Militum Ordo, we also go by the Milita Templi.
We are the only Canonically recognized "Knights Templar", we do not claim to be descended from the Ancient Order but our Rule of Life is based off the ancient rule.

Here is a mostly accurate article on us in Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_Templi

Kind of like opus dei in a sense that it is a lay organisation but has priests and professed and laity?  Yes I know what Opus Dei is and not the Dan Brown version either

 

[Nephi]

people's opinions in which they consider themselves experts

The entire blog-world, unfortunately.

 

[PJ]

But that's not to say that I'm giving up on defending him.

Well ... maybe I am.

I just finished reading this page, The Russians aren’t coming! The Russians aren’t coming! At the risk of sounding cliche, I have to say: Wow. (No, I don't mean "Wow, the Russian are not coming?" but wow at what's said on that page. Don't read it if you're highly sensitive or have a weak heart.  8))

The worst part of the link was reading people's opinions in which they consider themselves experts on but yet insist on calling Ukraine "the Ukraine".  Gruff!

Yeah I noticed that too. (I can also think of a lot of other things on that page that bothered me.)