Orthonorm's Dating and Relationship Advice Column

[IsmiLiora]

*applauds*

 

[Melodist]

When asking a girl out on a first date, is "Do you wanna have breakfast some time?" a good way to ask her?

 

[HandmaidenofGod]

When asking a girl out on a first date, is "Do you wanna have breakfast some time?" a good way to ask her?

No. It implies that you are expecting something the evening before.

 

[Melodist]

When asking a girl out on a first date, is "Do you wanna have breakfast some time?" a good way to ask her?

No. It implies that you are expecting something the evening before.

I work third shift and get off work at 7 AM.

 

[IsmiLiora]

Say "coffee." Makes more sense with time and doesn't have the sleazy connotation of "How do you like your eggs in the morning?"

 

[Melodist]

Thank you. Would inserting the words "after I get off of work" better clarify things?

 

[orthonorm]

My thread. Ignore all other answers or proceed at your own risk.

 

[IsmiLiora]

Oh yeah. You can even say breakfast and explain that you have a crazy work shift. But sometimes, depending on how a guy is phrasing things, it sounds like a weird pick up line.

 

[IsmiLiora]

My thread. Ignore all other answers or proceed at your own risk.

Well he could ask in person if he just wanted your opinion, couldn't he?  :-*

 

[orthonorm]

My thread. Ignore all other answers or proceed at your own risk.

Well he could ask in person if he just wanted your opinion, couldn't he?  :-*

Please don't keep reminding people that he knows me in person; it is unfair to him.

 

[Melodist]

I suppose this explains the pause followed by the confused "what?". I'm not typically a very social person. Anyway I need to think of something (specific - what, when, where, etc) to do now. I did end up explaining my work schedule.  

 

[orthonorm]

I suppose this explains the pause followed by the confused "what?". I'm not typically a very social person. Anyway I need to think of something (specific - what, when, where, etc) to do now. I did end up explaining my work schedule.  

Dude, we need to talk. We'll roll Cyrano de Dergerac style. It will be the feel good, summer blockbuster of 2012.

 

[Melodist]

Well he could ask in person if he just wanted your opinion, couldn't he?  :-*

This seemed more fun.

Please don't... it is unfair to him.

People might be deceived into thinking I'm a better person than what I really am, or think less of Orthonorm. Not really fair to anyone involved.

 

[orthonorm]

Well he could ask in person if he just wanted your opinion, couldn't he?  :-*

This seemed more fun.

Please don't... it is unfair to him.

People might . . . think less of Orthonorm.

Impossible.

 

[IsmiLiora]

People might be deceived into thinking I'm a better person than what I really am, or think less of Orthonorm. Not really fair to anyone involved.

Oh, Melodist.

 

[Ortho_cat]

subbing to this filthy thread...(I need a shower)

 

[orthonorm]

Do people still use this thread for dating advice? 

I go to an all male high school and need more exposure to girls. Ideas?

This is not just an issue for men in all male schools. The answer to your question could be specific directives, but I will put this on the back burner to get to and give you the ninja level answer after I finish (sleep willing) my breaking up without guilt series.

 

[Hiwot]

What we were we discussing again?

Oh yes, ending relationships and guilt.

Of course every situation is unique.

If you believe the above, go directly to your nearest newsstand and pick up the latest copy of O magazine.

Now given my wealth of experience and insight into the human condition there are a number of answers here.

Let's start with the ideal.

"All things find their end in their beginning."

The best way to end a relationship and mitigate the guilt starts with its beginning.

All endings are painful. They just are. But the pain of guilt has a particular quality and can stem from many missteps taken, but essentially, guilt is the pain of feeling improperly indebted to someone.

We are always in the other's debt. From them we find our very selves. In light of the other, we are. This debt, this gift can never be repaid. Thank God. For no gift should be repaid. It is pride that drives us to not want to be forever indebted to the other.

Someone once said of true gifts: they are what we can never offer ourselves, didn't want, and can never return.

So it is in our relationships with others. Relationships obviously cannot be had alone. We are not individuals. Rarely do relationships give us what we wanted for better and worse. They break our own feeble attempts to project our fantasy onto reality. They show us for who we are in all our grace and falleness. And we can never return them. For all the infantile, ritualistic attempts to cut off the other, the relationship, forever that person will have changed us forever.

This is structure of all relationships.

Sometimes out of nowhere, where we least expected it a person enters our lives and changes us immediately. No matter how much we were not looking for anything or even wanted it, we suddenly are caught up with another. Understanding the structure of the gift of a relationship that radical debt we will always carry will help to understand how to begin, and in beginning, how end the relationship without twisting that wonderful debt into the pain of guilt and free us to feel the pain love and grief.

In short we must accept: we will always owe the other something we cannot repay.

How to avoid have that feeling of indebtedness turn into guilt?

Stay tuned.

WOW!  I do not know how to put this, beautiful seems so trivial for it.  sublime!!!

 

[Melodist]

there is nothing better than a man who can cook.

Hey single ladies, I can do this and manage to get it right sometimes, or so I've been told.  Just putting the information out there.

 

[FormerReformer]

there is nothing better than a man who can cook.

Hey single ladies, I can do this and manage to get it right sometimes, or so I've been told.  Just putting the information out there.

No no no no NO, Melodist! Never advertise your cooking skills. If they know you can cook they will expect you to cook, all the time! Pretend to be completely helpless in the area of the kitchen. If you invite your date over for a nice romantic dinner, litter the kitchen with take-out boxes, throw her off the scent. Save any miraculous displays of cookery until your first kid is at the age where he can actually eat the food you cook.

And if, unlike me, you have any ability in the cleaning area, same rules. Mess up the living room to a tiny degree (disorganized messy, not biohazard messy) before she comes over, throw a few books on the coffee table haphazardly, hide a (clean) sock sticking partially up from a couch cushion, and maybe leave a few DVDs sitting next to the player. 

Again, after you have a kid or two and they're out of diapers, then you start displaying your OCD side. But don't set expectation levels high before that kid. Your place will NEVER be completely clean when babies are around, but if you can clean well she will expect it to be.

 

[IsmiLiora]

AHEM! I would not expect a man to cook all of the time, but that is just me. In fact, my husband can cook but he is of the school that once it tastes good, he's done improving on the dish. No no no.

I love the little break I get when I'm overwhelmed by work, and he has some dishes that I won't even attempt, because his are great, but as a control freak and overall perfectionist, there is no way I'm letting him cook every single time.

But it is a big plus to know that a man CAN clean, cook, whatever without whining. That in itself is a +100.

 

[FormerReformer]

AHEM! I would not expect a man to cook all of the time, but that is just me. In fact, my husband can cook but he is of the school that once it tastes good, he's done improving on the dish. No no no.

I love the little break I get when I'm overwhelmed by work, and he has some dishes that I won't even attempt, because his are great, but as a control freak and overall perfectionist, there is no way I'm letting him cook every single time.

But it is a big plus to know that a man CAN clean, cook, whatever without whining. That in itself is a +100.

Haven't we already established in the Favorite Games thread that you are one of the exceptions that proves the rule? Advice that applies to only .001% of women is not good advice (unless you're specifically looking for that .001%, in which case, good luck!).

Moderation is the key- display SOME ability in these areas, enough so that women know they won't have to babysit you all the time, without going overboard.

 

[TITL]

AHEM! I would not expect a man to cook all of the time, but that is just me. In fact, my husband can cook but he is of the school that once it tastes good, he's done improving on the dish. No no no.

I love the little break I get when I'm overwhelmed by work, and he has some dishes that I won't even attempt, because his are great, but as a control freak and overall perfectionist, there is no way I'm letting him cook every single time.

But it is a big plus to know that a man CAN clean, cook, whatever without whining. That in itself is a +100.

Haven't we already established in the Favorite Games thread that you are one of the exceptions that proves the rule? Advice that applies to only .001% of women is not good advice (unless you're specifically looking for that .001%, in which case, good luck!).

Moderation is the key- display SOME ability in these areas, enough so that women know they won't have to babysit you all the time, without going overboard.

.002%. I agree with IsmiLiora!

 

[IsmiLiora]

Whoo, TITL!!!  :laugh:

I think that it also depends on the woman's cooking abilities. If she is lazy and doesn't know how to cook, sure, she might see it as an out. But my friends would love their partner to be in the kitchen with them.

 

[FormerReformer]

Whoo, TITL!!!  :laugh:

I think that it also depends on the woman's cooking abilities. If she is lazy and doesn't know how to cook, sure, she might see it as an out. But my friends would love their partner to be in the kitchen with them.

Well, cooking skills are rare in women these days. In the past 12 years I've only met two women who can actually cook, and both of those had actually gone to cooking school to be chefs. As their room-mate I thought it would be awesome- after all, one of my first room-mates had gone to bar-tending school and always brought homework home... alas, these girls didn't.

 

[HandmaidenofGod]

Why is there all this discussion as if cooking and cleaning must all be one sided? It is not some new fangled feminist idealogy, but rather time-tested Orthodox theology that teaches us that marriage is a partnership. (That is why both the man and woman are crowned King and Queen of their household in the crowning ceremony.)

In other words, that both parties should help in domestic duties. If one party is stronger in a particular skill, then the other party should be happy to compensate in other areas.

For any man or woman to try to capitalize on a talent for their own benefit is selfish, and a recipe for relationship disaster.

To play these games of "I'm not going to keep my apartment too clean when she comes over" or "I'm not going to cook when she comes over" is silly.

If the person you are interested in truly is "patient, kind, is not self-seeking, easily angered, or keeps no record of wrongs" (1 Cor 13:4-7), then they will not be looking out for THEIR best interests, but for the interests of the relationship.

 

[TITL]

Whoo, TITL!!!  :laugh:

I think that it also depends on the woman's cooking abilities. If she is lazy and doesn't know how to cook, sure, she might see it as an out. But my friends would love their partner to be in the kitchen with them.

Well, cooking skills are rare in women these days. In the past 12 years I've only met two women who can actually cook, and both of those had actually gone to cooking school to be chefs. As their room-mate I thought it would be awesome- after all, one of my first room-mates had gone to bar-tending school and always brought homework home... alas, these girls didn't.

You had girl roommates?!  

 

[IsmiLiora]

Thanks for that, Handmaiden! I do agree that when it's time for serious relationships, the game playing has got to stop, as much as it possibly can. It's a good thing to have both people competent at as much as possible...husband and I agree that if he's out of work and I'm working, then he'll do the cleaning, cooking, etc. etc.  And when I was out of work and he was working, I did everything in the house. Since we both work, we split it and there has been no grumbling so far.*

A friend of mine has a husband that is unemployed and he just doesn't want to do anything domestic. So what does he do? Just sit around and file applications all day while the dishes pile up? Not saying that this only goes for guys. FR is right in that less and less women are adept at cooking or other domestic tasks. I didn't learn until I was in college. Both parties should step up to the plate and be honest about their strengths and weaknesses.

But that would be boring, wouldn't it?

*Grumbling about chores, I mean. Grumbling about other things, most definitely.

 

[TITL]

I live with my parents, and I still cook.

 

[IsmiLiora]

I live with my parents, and I still cook.

Good for you!

My mother was such an excellent cook that even though she worked 40+ hours a week and had to commute for 3 hours a day, it was understood that we did not cook unless it was to cook for ourselves. Everyone, from my father, my siblings, and I, right down to my relatives who lived with us, were spoiled and didn't want to eat anything but her cooking. I should have just rebelled and started cooking! One of my regrets.

 

[CoptoGeek]

In other words, that both parties should help in domestic duties. If one party is stronger in a particular skill, then the other party should be happy to compensate in other areas.

Exactly. That's why I use the remote control & DVR and the mrs cooks dinner 

 

[TITL]

Cooking is fun (when I'm in the mood), but I guess I have an advantage over others cause my mom is only home on the weekends (my dad is always working), and starving isn't an option in this house!

So it's forced upon me.

 

[FormerReformer]

Why is there all this discussion as if cooking and cleaning must all be one sided? It is not some new fangled feminist idealogy, but rather time-tested Orthodox theology that teaches us that marriage is a partnership. (That is why both the man and woman are crowned King and Queen of their household in the crowning ceremony.)

In other words, that both parties should help in domestic duties. If one party is stronger in a particular skill, then the other party should be happy to compensate in other areas.

For any man or woman to try to capitalize on a talent for their own benefit is selfish, and a recipe for relationship disaster.

To play these games of "I'm not going to keep my apartment too clean when she comes over" or "I'm not going to cook when she comes over" is silly.

If the person you are interested in truly is "patient, kind, is not self-seeking, easily angered, or keeps no record of wrongs" (1 Cor 13:4-7), then they will not be looking out for THEIR best interests, but for the interests of the relationship.

I'm sorry, I thought this thread was understood to be mainly tongue-in-cheek. There was a whole three pages about goat-to-fiance purchase rates, after all.

Well, cooking skills are rare in women these days. In the past 12 years I've only met two women who can actually cook, and both of those had actually gone to cooking school to be chefs. As their room-mate I thought it would be awesome- after all, one of my first room-mates had gone to bar-tending school and always brought homework home... alas, these girls didn't.

You had girl roommates?! 

I wasn't always Orthodox. But in the interests of full disclosure, there was never any hanky-panky going on with the room-mates (hanky-panky in my un-illumined days being a strictly outside the home thing).

 

[CoptoGeek]

I'm sorry, I thought this thread was understood to be mainly tongue-in-cheek. There was a whole three pages about goat-to-fiance purchase rates, after all.

What, you guys were only kidding about that?  No wonder Western marriages don't last...I mean nothing says commitment like exchanged livestock.  ;D

 

[FormerReformer]

I'm sorry, I thought this thread was understood to be mainly tongue-in-cheek. There was a whole three pages about goat-to-fiance purchase rates, after all.

What, you guys were only kidding about that?  No wonder Western marriages don't last...I mean nothing says commitment like exchanged livestock.  ;D

.... Until your wife finds out you bargained her father down to one goat.

 

[vamrat]

I'm sorry, I thought this thread was understood to be mainly tongue-in-cheek. There was a whole three pages about goat-to-fiance purchase rates, after all.

What, you guys were only kidding about that?  No wonder Western marriages don't last...I mean nothing says commitment like exchanged livestock.  ;D

I assure you, there was no kidding on my part...  I got my GF for a Parrot and a Cat.  There's some bargain hunting for you.

 

[CoptoGeek]

.... Until your wife finds out you bargained her father down to one goat.

It's called driving a bargain, a timeless tradition. My friend, it would be dishonorable to do otherwise.

OK, enough about livestock. Back to Orthonorm's apothegmatic words. We await thee, my liege...

 

[IsmiLiora]

I'm sorry, I thought this thread was understood to be mainly tongue-in-cheek. There was a whole three pages about goat-to-fiance purchase rates, after all.

What, you guys were only kidding about that?  No wonder Western marriages don't last...I mean nothing says commitment like exchanged livestock.  ;D

I assure you, there was no kidding on my part...  I got my GF for a Parrot and a Cat.  There's some bargain hunting for you.

Mr. Ismi got me for free. If it weren't for you wise men, I wouldn't have known about this dowry thing. Thanks for breeding a lifetime of resentment in our one-year marriage.

 

[FormerReformer]

I'm sorry, I thought this thread was understood to be mainly tongue-in-cheek. There was a whole three pages about goat-to-fiance purchase rates, after all.

What, you guys were only kidding about that?  No wonder Western marriages don't last...I mean nothing says commitment like exchanged livestock.  ;D

I assure you, there was no kidding on my part...  I got my GF for a Parrot and a Cat.  There's some bargain hunting for you.

Mr. Ismi got me for free. If it weren't for you wise men, I wouldn't have known about this dowry thing. Thanks for breeding a lifetime of resentment in our one-year marriage.

Look on the bright side- the only people cheated out of any livestock (or livestock's worth of money) were your parents. More livestock for you and your hubby to share in your wedded bliss.

 

[Melodist]

I assure you, there was no kidding on my part...  I got my GF for a Parrot and a Cat.  There's some bargain hunting for you.

Mr. Ismi got me for free. If it weren't for you wise men, I wouldn't have known about this dowry thing. Thanks for breeding a lifetime of resentment in our one-year marriage.

Yeah there's girls out there worth multiple camels, and your parents couldn't even get a parrot and a cat out of you. You shouldn't resent your husband though, he's just knows how to bargain. It's your parents that settled for it.