Padre Pio Credited With Orthodox Parish's Conversion

[Alveus Lacuna]

Whenever we are discussing healing and its source, I think our policy should be to tread carefully, lest we blaspheme the Holy Spirit:

And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.  And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

 

[ialmisry]

I can respect your opinion, and I certainly know that most Roman Catholics would feel the same way as you do. But we are discussing Orthodox who apostated, not Roman Catholics. Also we are on an Orthodox forum, so most people on this forum would see that RCC aren't recognized in our Church. If I were on a Roman Catholic forum, I probably would not be so frank and honest about the fact that RCC saints aren't Saints in the Orthodox Church.

They were great people, possibly saints (in the lower-case form), but certainly not Orthodox Saints. Therefore, it is wrong to seek for their intercession.
It would be wrong for me to seek intercession from my relatives, who although were great people, weren't Orthodox.

Certainly, even if they were saints in heaven, that doesn't give me the right to forsake the Church. The Roman Catholic sacraments aren't really valid, and the eucharist in the RCC certainly isn't valid. Same for the Saints. Even though the RCC is a Christian church, and although it was once a part of the Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church, it is no longer so. Therefore, it was wrong for these people to apostate to Roman Catholicism, no matter how convinced they were of Padre Pio's sainthood.

This isn't about how correct the RCC sacraments and faith is, it's about how these people forsook the One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church of Christ.

As I said, even if they are saints, that doesn't "prove" Catholicism to be a part of the Church...

Yes, I know I am on Orthodox forum but I am in the Catholic section of the forum ;D
Now this about RC's not having valid sacraments, is this the consensus of the Orthodox Church? Because I have asked and I get different answers all the time.

No, you get the consistet answer that whether they have or not doesn't concern us.

If that were true you guys wouldn't mention us nor compare yourselves to us . You know, things like.. Oh we are not like the Roamn Catholics(Vatican to you)we have our Apostolic succession and our bishops blah blah...the Catholics do this but we do that. They say this but we say that..It gets really old fast and its a big turn off. I know you don't care but others in your church feel differently. I am sure of this. (forgive me for my bluntness, I forgive you for yours)

It is only because of a history of being classed as Protestants (the official classification of the US government, e.g. in the military, until I think the 50s), the queires "is that like Catholics" etc. in this country that it comes up at all.  The comparison is forced on us, which is understandable given people's points of reference.  This obsession with the "validity" of the Vatican's sacraments consumed-and consumes-a lot of bandwidth on places like CAF.

Note your own words: YOU asked about the "validity" (a concept foreign, like "valid but illicit," to us). 

When an Orthodox bishop was almost deposed, but was admonished instead, for communing with the Vatican's flock in Romania, the quesiton of whether it was really Our Lord or not I do not think came up.  It was simply put that the Orthodox, on pain of excommunication, does not take communion from the Vatican.

 

[PeterTheAleut]

Tangent on whether St. Gregory Palamas displayed stigmata split off and moved here:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,26215.0.html

 

[PrelestWatch]

I know this topic hasn't been updated in many years, but it concerns me. I have always had a lot of irrational fears as a young man concerning supernatural phenomenon like this. Roman miracles, and even phenomenon like reincarnation and aliens always left me tormented and disturbed, being that we were always taught growing up that it was demonic.

There are no real accounts of major cult leaders being delivered from their deception. It seems if you are in a cult or founded one, you are likely going to stay that way until you die. Also, no stories of anyone being tortured during alien abductions and then finding Jesus afterwards or realizing it was all a deception, and I do believe that many UFO related events like that have happened, and are either demonic or real. The reason it causes me so much fear is because it validates the power of institutions or beings who I see as being a bastion of mind control and fear. The new age and alien phenomenon in my opinion is a valid alternative explanation to what goes on in the world besides just Satan. I never saw a reason to think that if there are religions who perform miracles under the devil, then why not Christianity being a conspiracy of some malevolent being? I don't think we can actually disprove the possibility of some otherworldly beings outside of what Christianity claims to exist having some influence or control over the world. In other words, things like the resurrection of Jesus and the bible itself may contain deceptions and lies even if the miracles may have happened. Growing up suffering religious abuse and confusion left me permanently damaged in my mind that God truly was an instrument of fear and control, and my doubts have not went away. Seeing documentaries or information on alien phenomenon also left my mind troubled deeply. I never felt I could ever have enough trust in God after that, or that the new age explanation that the biblical God is some opressive demiurge type being like in the Matrix could explain why we must resist it. I could find many reasons to believe that what is taught in Christianity is truly irrational and destructive, even in spite of being self-professed Christian who believes there is in fact some miracles done in the name of it. Given my misfortunes with religious people and institutions, it was like a dream to find some kind of escape from this nightmare that had no hope, that is, the Christian faith. I tend to read the bible and find things that seem comforting, then hear people or figures in my imagination telling me it is a lie and I don't deserve it or am created to be tortured by God.

That being said, the bible speaks of principalities of demons residing in certain nations or bodies. We were always told because of sensational stories that Romans had more power because of the extravagant tales of their exorcisms, and Protestants or others were a fraud. But this allegedly validates any kind of false theology they teach and left me confused. Someone mentioned Padre Pio's rejection of the church in the beginning of his ministry is because he is the second Christ, his life meant to parallel the rejection of Jesus by the Jews, up until his eventual canonization, however, that would mean whatever antagonism he taught towards Orthodoxy would be valid. They say his stigmata was real because you cannot heal so quickly between the appearances of those stigmatas if you try to burn yourself.

I have had Roman catholic priests lie to me numerous times of witnessing astounding exorcisms, but also had an encounter with our local (emotionally abusive) bishop before he retired, who said he did not remember the last time he ever authorized an exorcism in the long decades since had been in office, and he had only ever performed one himself which was no different than what Bob Larson does. It wasn't like what they show on the Exorcist. I also had a former Roman priest who became Anglican tell me Roman priests, like pentecostals, embellish a lot of what they do. He said he was once exorcised by a Roman priest because of occult influences he had from his relative's involvement in a masonic lodge. There was nothing extravagant. He said a lot of priests don't even have much faith in this stuff anymore and the church is lacking exorcists in general. I have found a lot of Romans to be generally dishonest, rude and corrupt in general. I have my share of hurt from being demeaned by them in person, which has been part of my current mental health struggles.

 

[recent convert]

You might want to read: Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future by the late Fr. Seraphim ( Rose). I do not agree with it entirely but I do believe Fr Seraphim knew much about demonic forces & influences.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/87669.Orthodoxy_and_the_Religion_of_the_Future

 

[Faith Romancer]

I know of an account from someone online who lives in Denmark. He was raised nominally Roman Catholic but delved into unbelief, dabbled briefly in Protestantism, and then into atheism. He was struggling with immense depression that he said even his medicine did not help. Ironically, his brother was a priest in an Eastern Orthodox church, one of the few in the country. Now the unbelieving one eventually met a Roman catholic apologist online who convinced him of Roman Catholicism, and in particular papal infallibility. He entered the church and during baptism claims to have had a demonic manifestation that required a major exorcism, though some details of the account are sketchy. Around the same time, he found out that his brother, the Eastern Orthodox priest, had been researching papal dogmas and said it was revealed to him that they were true and that he wanted to come into communion with Rome. This, coupled with the fact that the exorcism cured his brother's depression, they both cite as revelations (because of its coincidental nature) that they were on a mission from God to unite the Eastern churches under the authority of Rome. Eventually that Eastern Orthodox church was converted into an Eastern Catholic parish in full communion with Rome, or so I heard.

The Roman apologist responsible for converting the Danish man to his religion said that Eastern Orthodox have no excuse for being ignorant of Rome and it's teachings and are only willingly denying the teachings of the church that Rome is the supreme see and that the pope is the authority. He said it didn't matter even if the Roman church teaches that they have some valid sacraments, because if they don't become Roman catholic when they die, they are going to hell. The Danish man said his Orthodox brother had already heard the arguments against the pope but still decided to believe in him anyway. He also claimed something along the lines that he had access to rare variations of documents or knew of certain documents that contained proof that the church fathers affirmed Rome as the head of the church, though this may not be the best way of describing what he meant. What do you think of that?

 

[recent convert]

I know of an account from someone online who lives in Denmark. He was raised nominally Roman Catholic but delved into unbelief, dabbled briefly in Protestantism, and then into atheism. He was struggling with immense depression that he said even his medicine did not help. Ironically, his brother was a priest in an Eastern Orthodox church, one of the few in the country. Now the unbelieving one eventually met a Roman catholic apologist online who convinced him of Roman Catholicism, and in particular papal infallibility. He entered the church and during baptism claims to have had a demonic manifestation that required a major exorcism, though some details of the account are sketchy. Around the same time, he found out that his brother, the Eastern Orthodox priest, had been researching papal dogmas and said it was revealed to him that they were true and that he wanted to come into communion with Rome. This, coupled with the fact that the exorcism cured his brother's depression, they both cite as revelations (because of its coincidental nature) that they were on a mission from God to unite the Eastern churches under the authority of Rome. Eventually that Eastern Orthodox church was converted into an Eastern Catholic parish in full communion with Rome, or so I heard.

The Roman apologist responsible for converting the Danish man to his religion said that Eastern Orthodox have no excuse for being ignorant of Rome and it's teachings and are only willingly denying the teachings of the church that Rome is the supreme see and that the pope is the authority. He said it didn't matter even if the Roman church teaches that they have some valid sacraments, because if they don't become Roman catholic when they die, they are going to hell. The Danish man said his Orthodox brother had already heard the arguments against the pope but still decided to believe in him anyway. He also claimed something along the lines that he had access to rare variations of documents or knew of certain documents that contained proof that the church fathers affirmed Rome as the head of the church, though this may not be the best way of describing what he meant. What do you think of that?

I think individuals with controlling, tyrannical tendencies like this help perpetuate human conflict.

 

[LizaSymonenko]

If this Roman Catholic saint had no qualms about healing an Orthodox woman, and other Orthodox faithful in their parish...why did they feel they needed to convert? Clearly nothing was "wrong" with them, or the saint supposedly would not have healed them, or would have told them to convert... which he did not.

This was a mistake made by parishioners who did not understand Orthodoxy, and for that matter, probably do not understand their newly chosen Faith.

 

[Nathanael]

the orthodox church "produces" in every decade several outstanding saints,..there's (probably) one "Padre Pio" within the roman catholic church in the 20th century, but dozens of orthodox elders & saints, who smoothly can keep up with the life & charismatic gifts of Padre Pio...

 

[PorphyriosK]

I know of an account from someone online who lives in Denmark. He was raised nominally Roman Catholic but delved into unbelief, dabbled briefly in Protestantism, and then into atheism. He was struggling with immense depression that he said even his medicine did not help. Ironically, his brother was a priest in an Eastern Orthodox church, one of the few in the country. Now the unbelieving one eventually met a Roman catholic apologist online who convinced him of Roman Catholicism, and in particular papal infallibility. He entered the church and during baptism claims to have had a demonic manifestation that required a major exorcism, though some details of the account are sketchy. Around the same time, he found out that his brother, the Eastern Orthodox priest, had been researching papal dogmas and said it was revealed to him that they were true and that he wanted to come into communion with Rome. This, coupled with the fact that the exorcism cured his brother's depression, they both cite as revelations (because of its coincidental nature) that they were on a mission from God to unite the Eastern churches under the authority of Rome. Eventually that Eastern Orthodox church was converted into an Eastern Catholic parish in full communion with Rome, or so I heard.

The Roman apologist responsible for converting the Danish man to his religion said that Eastern Orthodox have no excuse for being ignorant of Rome and it's teachings and are only willingly denying the teachings of the church that Rome is the supreme see and that the pope is the authority. He said it didn't matter even if the Roman church teaches that they have some valid sacraments, because if they don't become Roman catholic when they die, they are going to hell. The Danish man said his Orthodox brother had already heard the arguments against the pope but still decided to believe in him anyway. He also claimed something along the lines that he had access to rare variations of documents or knew of certain documents that contained proof that the church fathers affirmed Rome as the head of the church, though this may not be the best way of describing what he meant. What do you think of that?

Raised nominally Catholic, but was received into the Catholic Church through baptism? With an Orthodox priest brother who apostasized at the drop of a hat because some online apologist convinced him? The details of this story are bizarre and don't add up. A demonic manifestation during baptism? That in itself is indicative that something is off.

"Lord Illumine with the light of awareness the apostates from the Orthodox Faith, and those blinded by pernicious heresies, and number them with Thy Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Church."

 

[Faith Romancer]

Raised nominally Catholic, but was received into the Catholic Church through baptism? With an Orthodox priest brother who apostasized at the drop of a hat because some online apologist convinced him? The details of this story are bizarre and don't add up. A demonic manifestation during baptism? That in itself is indicative that something is off.

"Lord Illumine with the light of awareness the apostates from the Orthodox Faith, and those blinded by pernicious heresies, and number them with Thy Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Church."

Actually I am not sure if it was during baptism, that part of the account may not be accurate. I do remember someone who talked to him saying the account was somewhat suspicious. When exactly would they find out that he had a demon in him requiring a major exorcism? He said that he was not conscious when it happened and that the exorcist's said he blasphemed in a demon voice. Minor exorcisms are performed during Roman baptisms, but I do not know what else occurred. Whether or not he consulted the bishop first to get approval of an attempted exorcism, or found out through some other way (and fetched the bishop later on) I do not know. His belief was that other churches did not have the power to legitimately exorcise demons and this confirmed the Roman church had authentic power. Even if he obtained the exorcism the legitimate way, I do not know if an Orthodox could be anything less than skeptical of a miracle that eventually leads to apostasy.