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Paleo Fasting for Lent

Marc1152

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Several board members and myself adhere to a "Paleo Diet" or Adkins type diet. This type of eating trys to mimic the way humans ate for a couple million years before the advent of agriculture. The theory is that grains, legumes, dairy and sugar and processed food don't suit how we are genetically engineered in order to keep us healthy. Ten thousands years of agriculture ( Neolithic era) is not anywhere long enough for us to have adapted to these "new foods". We should eat like our hunter gatherer ancestors.

So this presents a problem come Lent. The Paleo Diet emphasizes lean meat and eggs that come from animals grass fed, wild or naturally pastured if possible. The problem is how to totally cut out Meat, Fish and Eggs, and all grains and beans too and not starve.

Speaking to several people over the years who eat Paleo, we fall into two categories. Some people largely ignore the fast and stick to their Paleo Diet. The other group ( including me) simply violate the diet and eat pasta and bread and all the stuff everyone else does to stay reasonably full.

I don't want to do that again. I want to Paleo Fast. I want to keep the fast and not eat grains or beans etc.

I am looking for suggestions. Here is what I am thinking to date.

I think I will try to eat lots vegetables and  fruit but I already know that is not enough for me to live on and I will eventually give in to bread and pasta etc. So I am looking for additional foods, still Paleo to fill the gap.

The obvious first choice is to eat more of the Seafood allowed during lent. Shrimp, scallops, crab, squid octopus etc. I have over done shrimp in the past to the point that I hated eating it. I also felt like I would eventually have an allergic reaction.

But I am thinking Seafood soup. Does anyone have a good recipe? Something I can crockpot all day with scallops and shrimp and vegetable in it?

There is also something called Cabbage Soup. Some people eat it as a weird nitchy diet all unto itself but it may also be a good hearty meal for my purposes as well. Does anyone know how to cook it?

I will also try simply frying some of the Lenten Seafood and see how it goes.

Past that, I need a starch. I have been eating yams and think they may fit. Potatoes are not strictly Paleo but I may push the envelope a bit and  eat them. Does anyone have a good suggestion for a hearty starch?

Finally, I dont want to eat margarine anymore. Vegetable oils are very bad for you and I have in the past used them extensively during the fast. I will try to not do that again but a plain yam staring up at you is pretty Spartan. Does anyone have a suggestion?

And finally, I will chock back some hot water with coconut oil mixed in to get a good dose of healthy fats. I will also double up on Fish Oil pills and vitamin D.

That is the plan so far..

Help would be appreciated.    

 

 

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Guacamole instead of margarine?  I don't know how that would taste on a yam, but if you like 'mole, you might give it a go.

My wife is doing the paleo thing at the moment.  I tried it with her.  I don't feel right on it.  The older I get, the more I find myself leaning towards a general vegetarian diet b/c I always feel physically best the weeks before Pascha and Christmas.  But I also know people who feel and look great doing a strict paleo thing. 

Good luck with keeping it up during the Fast.
 

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I think this is an interesting idea and hopefully as the fast progresses I will have some suggestions.  I know where you are coming from on the shrimp front.  I like shrimp a good bit but by the Resurrection I'm straight up done with them.  Perhaps a gumbo might work.  I usually make it with rice, so there's a grain there, but otherwise lots of okra, onions, and green peppers - all fast appropriate and probably paleocool as well.  Shrimp for a meat and maybe crab as well?  (I'll probably use soy-sausage, so for something more hunter-gatherer you will have to think up a second meat on your own!  ;))
 

Second Chance

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One dish that I like (with whole wheat bread) is Chinese hot and sour soup, with the stock mainly from the water that you soaked the black mushrooms in and the protein from what is allowed in the meat category and from Tofu. I load mine with sliced carrots and celery, bamboo shoots, tree ears, preserved vegetable, and even Kimchi. I fix a big batch, and when I heat up a portion I alternate adding in shrimp and Tofu.  



 

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As far as starch goes, how about some beets, yucca, and turnips?  While not strictly paleo, I have found that wild rice sits pretty well with me. 
 

Marc1152

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I forgot about nuts. A handful will keep you going.

My daughter suggested "Naked Juice".. Its a blend of either fruits or vegetables with no added sugar. They also boost it with over 4,000 mg of Omega 3 fats from flax. That's a good amount. I tried some tonight with my fish and it was good.

Moli..Now that's what I am looking for . Something I would not have thought of.

Beets..Good . Thanks. A bowl of beets or even borscht will fit the plan.

Kimchi or sauerkraut. check. (Primitive people have consistently been found to ferment foods)

Fasting is pretty good for you. One of the Paleo gurus, Robb Wolf has a video that mentions it. Whenever you reduce calories by around 30 percent, all health markers improve. Blood pressure, blood profile etc. Calorie restriction is known to increase longevity.

Our fast certainly falls within the 30% fewer calories range. We all feel and look better at the end no matter what we have eaten since we are eating less than usual.

Hunter Gatherer groups may also have gone through cycles of feast and famine. That may be why our bodies have adapted to these swings and get stronger in some ways when we have less.
 

Marc1152

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KBN1 said:
As far as starch goes, how about some beets, yucca, and turnips?  While not strictly paleo, I have found that wild rice sits pretty well with me. 
I think wild rice is a grass not a grain.

Something that takes more energy to gather than what you get back in calories would not have been eaten by our hunter gatherer ancestors.
Therefore our genetic makeup is not well suited to handle small grasses.

What happens when we eat them is that our bodies identify the food as foreign to our species and sends out a signal that puts our systems on hyper vigilance. In practical terms vital area's get inflamed as a way to defend against the un natural food. Inflammation is what goes on to cause heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes and cancers.

It's something like a battleship where the crew is put on battle station alert. That's fine for a short while but you cant keep the men at battle stations 24/7. They get worn out and quickly the hyper vigilance becomes counter productive.

So no wild rice  :)  :)  :)
 

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nuts definitely, if you can eat them (I can't ).   Can you do Almond and/or coconut milk?  or is that too processed for Paleo?  

If I am going to do grains I would do them as whole as possible.  Of course, I say this and then show up to coffee hour where it will be a carb lovers delight :(.   I *love* steel cut oats and they are stick to your ribs filling.  Add a little almond milk and sweetener (is that okay??).

The problem with slow cooking shrimp or scallops is that they turn to rubber if you cook them too long.  The nice thing about cooking with shrimp or scallops is that you don't need to cook them too long.  If you want to make it simple.  Prepare the broth base the night before and put it in the fridge to wait until your ready to heat it up.  Add the shrimp then.

Avacado will be your friend.  high in good oils and also quite filling.  I don't know how to make guacamole without mao though.  You could make put it in a salad though.

Spaghetti squash is a nice alternative to pasta.  I think its a bit sweet, but still a nice flavor.  I slice it into big chunks... put it into a 9x13 pan - put a little water (1/2 cup) cover with tin foil and bake for 30 min or until easily pierced by a fork.  Then it's easy to cut off the seedy part.... scoop out the squash and store in a ziploc baggy in the fridge.  re-heat as necessary.

 

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Marc1152 said:
KBN1 said:
As far as starch goes, how about some beets, yucca, and turnips?  While not strictly paleo, I have found that wild rice sits pretty well with me. 
I think wild rice is a grass not a grain.

Something that takes more energy to gather than what you get back in calories would not have been eaten by our hunter gatherer ancestors.
Therefore our genetic makeup is not well suited to handle small grasses.

What happens when we eat them is that our bodies identify the food as foreign to our species and sends out a signal that puts our systems on hyper vigilance. In practical terms vital area's get inflamed as a way to defend against the un natural food. Inflammation is what goes on to cause heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes and cancers.

It's something like a battleship where the crew is put on battle station alert. That's fine for a short while but you cant keep the men at battle stations 24/7. They get worn out and quickly the hyper vigilance becomes counter productive.

So no wild rice  :)  :)  :)
All I was saying is that while I do follow a paleo way of eating, eating wild rice from time to time does not negatively effect me as wheat and standard rices do.  That's all. 
 

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I think wild rice is a grass not a grain.
Wheat is a grass. Wheat is a grain. Get used to it.  Always thought this paleo business was bunk.  ::)
 

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PrincessMommy said:
nuts definitely, if you can eat them (I can't ).   Can you do Almond and/or coconut milk?  or is that too processed for Paleo?  

If I am going to do grains I would do them as whole as possible.  Of course, I say this and then show up to coffee hour where it will be a carb lovers delight :(.   I *love* steel cut oats and they are stick to your ribs filling.  Add a little almond milk and sweetener (is that okay??).

The problem with slow cooking shrimp or scallops is that they turn to rubber if you cook them too long.  The nice thing about cooking with shrimp or scallops is that you don't need to cook them too long.  If you want to make it simple.  Prepare the broth base the night before and put it in the fridge to wait until your ready to heat it up.  Add the shrimp then.

Avacado will be your friend.  high in good oils and also quite filling.  I don't know how to make guacamole without mao though.  You could make put it in a salad though.

Spaghetti squash is a nice alternative to pasta.  I think its a bit sweet, but still a nice flavor.  I slice it into big chunks... put it into a 9x13 pan - put a little water (1/2 cup) cover with tin foil and bake for 30 min or until easily pierced by a fork.  Then it's easy to cut off the seedy part.... scoop out the squash and store in a ziploc baggy in the fridge.  re-heat as necessary.
Guac with mayo?  Never heard of this.  Is this standard?  I've always just done avocado, onion, jalapeno, garlic, cilantro, lime, salt.
 

Marc1152

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KBN1 said:
Marc1152 said:
KBN1 said:
As far as starch goes, how about some beets, yucca, and turnips?  While not strictly paleo, I have found that wild rice sits pretty well with me. 
I think wild rice is a grass not a grain.

Something that takes more energy to gather than what you get back in calories would not have been eaten by our hunter gatherer ancestors.
Therefore our genetic makeup is not well suited to handle small grasses.

What happens when we eat them is that our bodies identify the food as foreign to our species and sends out a signal that puts our systems on hyper vigilance. In practical terms vital area's get inflamed as a way to defend against the un natural food. Inflammation is what goes on to cause heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes and cancers.

It's something like a battleship where the crew is put on battle station alert. That's fine for a short while but you cant keep the men at battle stations 24/7. They get worn out and quickly the hyper vigilance becomes counter productive.

So no wild rice  :)  :)  :)
All I was saying is that while I do follow a paleo way of eating, eating wild rice from time to time does not negatively effect me as wheat and standard rices do.  That's all. 
I know
 

Marc1152

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LBK said:
I think wild rice is a grass not a grain.
Wheat is a grass. Wheat is a grain. Get used to it.  Always thought this paleo business was bunk.  ::)
It's the principle that you should try to understand.

If it takes more energy to gather something than the calorie payoff when you eat it, then it was not part of a typical hunter gatherer diet..for a couple of million years. They were not stupid :)

Wild grains and grasses took too much energy to gather up then was worth the effort. Not until it was cultivated with Neolithic agriculture (farming) did it pay to use them. That was only 10,000 years ago or less. Only 33 generations or so. Our genetic makeup has not had time to accept a food that new.

Only with the template of evolution can we understand what a natural human diet may be.
 

LBK

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That was only 10,000 years ago or less. Only 33 generations or so.
Check your math, Marc. Your credibility isn't improving.  ;)
 

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Marc1152 said:
The theory is that grains, legumes, dairy and sugar and processed food don't suit how we are genetically engineered in order to keep us healthy. Ten thousands years of agriculture ( Neolithic era) is not anywhere long enough for us to have adapted to these "new foods". We should eat like our hunter gatherer ancestors.

So this presents a problem come Lent. The Paleo Diet emphasizes lean meat and eggs that come from animals grass fed, wild or naturally pastured if possible. The problem is how to totally cut out Meat, Fish and Eggs, and all grains and beans too and not starve.
According to the stated theory above I do not understand how legumes can be excluded, visually, it is a readily recognizable hunter gatherer type food if I ever saw one. You might also want to redefine the term dairy. We wouldn't be mammal without it.

In regard to shell fish and stews. Add it a couple of minutes before you plan to eat it. Recipes may follow once I know the more clearly the parameters.

 

LBK

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This paleo BS is no different to any other BS diet based on pseudoscience and/or celebrity endorsement. IMHO, paleo is more of a philosophy than anything else, a dietary version of team-bonding exercises and getting in touch with your inner caveman.  ::) ::) :p

Sorry, Marc, I ain't swallowing it.  ;)

Stick to a sensible balanced diet and you can't go wrong.
 

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The Paleo diet is typically very expensive and requires you to focus a lot of time, thought and energy on food. Not a great lenten idea.

Marc1152 said:
That was only 10,000 years ago or less. Only 33 generations or so. Our genetic makeup has not had time to accept a food that new.
Oh, but it has.

And where did you get 33 generations? The Gospel of Matthew?
 

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Schultz said:
My wife is doing the paleo thing at the moment.  I tried it with her.  I don't feel right on it.  The older I get, the more I find myself leaning towards a general vegetarian diet b/c I always feel physically best the weeks before Pascha and Christmas. 
I'm with you and LBK on this.  Fad diets are weird.  This whole idea of "fasting" to meet the letter of the law by eating foods that the typical Orthodox Christian couldn't even dream of affording makes no sense.  And it really is only the 1% who could even afford to eat the paleo-diet even during non-"fast" times.     
 

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Um, Marc, 10,000 years, even if a generation was 100 years, would be 100 generations.  Let's call a generation 30 years, in which case you are talking more like 333 generations.
 

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JamesRottnek said:
Um, Marc, 10,000 years, even if a generation was 100 years, would be 100 generations.  Let's call a generation 30 years, in which case you are talking more like 333 generations.
Thank you, James! What I said earlier about Marc's sloppy math.
 

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how much would a seafood soup like that cost?? Seems like that might be going against the spirit of the fast, unless u can obtain that stuff cheaply and in abundance...  :-\
 

Marc1152

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LBK said:
That was only 10,000 years ago or less. Only 33 generations or so.
Check your math, Marc. Your credibility isn't improving.  ;)
Yup.. I clicked and later realized that I had dropped the last 3. It's only been 333 generations since the advent of agriculture.

Here's some math for you. Even if you don't go all 2.5 million years back to the start of the Paleolithic period and just to our common ancestors, you will still have around 1.8 million years. The idea is that 10,000 years is a very short amount of time in evolutionary terms. Our genetic makeup was formed around certain foods. We are disposed genetically to eat them. These "New foods" grains, legumes, dairy etc. not only are not the most healthful foods for us but actually interfere with our nutrition. They contain anti-nutrients, Phyates and such the like.

That's a reasonable theory. We can look at other diets, vegetarianism or vegan ism and see that they will leave us deficient in vital areas. We can see that a more natural human diet, that mimic's what our hunter gatherer ancestors ate is not deficient and in fact all health markers improve when you eat that way.


Sorry if that challenges you in some odd way. I suggest reading up on this. You can decide if the scientific evidence properly presented still seems to be bunk to you or not. I suggest either:

"The Paleo Solution"; by Robb Wolf or

"The Paleo Answer" : by Lorin Cordain or The Paleo Diet, same author

Wolf has a series on You tube, "Ask Robb Wolf Anything"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PpuIKTg6QE



 

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Marc1152 said:
Our fast certainly falls within the 30% fewer calories range. We all feel and look better at the end no matter what we have eaten since we are eating less than usual.
See, this would be correct in my case if I actually ate fewer calories during Lent.  I haven't quite made it to really reducing caloric intake in my discipline; I start out trying to, but by week two, I'm eating three meals a day as usual.  While I stick to an 85% vegan diet (hey, I trip up now and then and get a milkshake! :p) I still probably consume between 1800 and 2000 calories a day during fasting periods which is what I normally consume outside of them.

Again, I know people for whom PD works wonders.  i'm not one of them, but good luck in sticking with it. :)
 

Marc1152

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Νεκτάριος said:
Schultz said:
My wife is doing the paleo thing at the moment.  I tried it with her.  I don't feel right on it.  The older I get, the more I find myself leaning towards a general vegetarian diet b/c I always feel physically best the weeks before Pascha and Christmas. 
I'm with you and LBK on this.  Fad diets are weird.  This whole idea of "fasting" to meet the letter of the law by eating foods that the typical Orthodox Christian couldn't even dream of affording makes no sense.  And it really is only the 1% who could even afford to eat the paleo-diet even during non-"fast" times.     


Really? What makes you think eating a proper diet is too expensive?

In some ways you have a point. Government subsidizes what is most profitable for Agra Business. So the result is you get corn in everything you eat. You really should not be too happy about that.

You can't afford meat? Even very cheap cuts? You cant afford eggs and vegetables and fruit? I think most people can. I bet you are not really all that impoverished.

And let's not forget the doctor bills that come with a Western diet. Do you know how expensive it is to manage diabetes ? And all the little aches and pains like bad knee's and back that go away when you stop eating an un natural diet that cause inflammation.. Net net, eating a natural Paleo type diet will save you money and keep you active and healthier and alive longer.
 

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Marc1152 said:
And let's not forget the doctor bills that come with a Western diet. Do you know how expensive it is to manage diabetes ? And all the little aches and pains like bad knee's and back that go away when you stop eating an un natural diet that cause inflammation.. Net net, eating a natural Paleo type diet will save you money and keep you active and healthier and alive longer.
How do you explain traditional Asian diets, which are usually very high in "inflammatory" grain (rice) consumption and moderate dairy consumption, and who do not, generally, suffer from the same maladies as those of us in the Western world suffer from?  Key to the Asian diet is also regular physical activity.

The simple fact remains is that a diet low in processed foods, be it Paleo or home-cooked vegan, and a lifestyle that promotes regular, moderate physical activity, is and will be better than any diet made primarily of processed material loaded with sugar (be it HFCS or cane or whatever) and other chemicals that "promote freshness" and a more sedentary lifestyle (or even one that promotes occasional vigorous activity).
 

Marc1152

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Schultz said:
Marc1152 said:
Our fast certainly falls within the 30% fewer calories range. We all feel and look better at the end no matter what we have eaten since we are eating less than usual.
See, this would be correct in my case if I actually ate fewer calories during Lent.  I haven't quite made it to really reducing caloric intake in my discipline; I start out trying to, but by week two, I'm eating three meals a day as usual.  While I stick to an 85% vegan diet (hey, I trip up now and then and get a milkshake! :p) I still probably consume between 1800 and 2000 calories a day during fasting periods which is what I normally consume outside of them.

Again, I know people for whom PD works wonders.  i'm not one of them, but good luck in sticking with it. :)
Dont miss understand me, a plant based diet is fine short term. That is essentially what I am doing for the Fast. Vegetables and fruit and the stuff we have had suggested here. Subtracting highly processed junk food is best. Fruit loops even with almond milk is still not too good. I am just also avoiding grains and beans.

The rule they suggest is 85% compliance. So an occasional milk shake is within that range.

A long term vegetarian or vegan diet is a problem. You will become deficient in some vital area's and your health may suffer. But not for a month or two per year. I find the extra fiber quite........umm..cleansing.
 

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Schultz said:
Marc1152 said:
And let's not forget the doctor bills that come with a Western diet. Do you know how expensive it is to manage diabetes ? And all the little aches and pains like bad knee's and back that go away when you stop eating an un natural diet that cause inflammation.. Net net, eating a natural Paleo type diet will save you money and keep you active and healthier and alive longer.
How do you explain traditional Asian diets, which are usually very high in "inflammatory" grain (rice) consumption and moderate dairy consumption, and who do not, generally, suffer from the same maladies as those of us in the Western world suffer from?  Key to the Asian diet is also regular physical activity.

The simple fact remains is that a diet low in processed foods, be it Paleo or home-cooked vegan, and a lifestyle that promotes regular, moderate physical activity, is and will be better than any diet made primarily of processed material loaded with sugar (be it HFCS or cane or whatever) and other chemicals that "promote freshness" and a more sedentary lifestyle (or even one that promotes occasional vigorous activity).
Like I said earlier, Schultz, paleo is as much a philosophy and ideology as anything else. Nothing to do with proper science or history, despite its outward trappings.
 

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LBK said:
Like I said earlier, Schultz, paleo is as much a philosophy and ideology as anything else. Nothing to do with proper science or history, despite its outward trappings.
Perhaps.  But what does that have to do with the OP?  ???  He isn't asking for a debate about the Paleo diet, Marc is asking for eating ideas during Lent.  
 

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Schultz said:
Marc1152 said:
And let's not forget the doctor bills that come with a Western diet. Do you know how expensive it is to manage diabetes ? And all the little aches and pains like bad knee's and back that go away when you stop eating an un natural diet that cause inflammation.. Net net, eating a natural Paleo type diet will save you money and keep you active and healthier and alive longer.
How do you explain traditional Asian diets, which are usually very high in "inflammatory" grain (rice) consumption and moderate dairy consumption, and who do not, generally, suffer from the same maladies as those of us in the Western world suffer from?  Key to the Asian diet is also regular physical activity.

The simple fact remains is that a diet low in processed foods, be it Paleo or home-cooked vegan, and a lifestyle that promotes regular, moderate physical activity, is and will be better than any diet made primarily of processed material loaded with sugar (be it HFCS or cane or whatever) and other chemicals that "promote freshness" and a more sedentary lifestyle (or even one that promotes occasional vigorous activity).
I think you have already hit on it. They don't eat sugar the way we do. They also dont have lots of highly processed foods.

And they sometimes eat pretty fatty meats, duck and pork and they are not very prissy about organ meats.

The minus is that they eat so much rice. However, white rice has a small advantage. The polishing process removes some of the more noxious toxins, If you had to choose a grain to eat instead of wheat, rice would be it.

So all in all their diet doesn't have the sugary stuff in it that we eat. They do eat natural farm raised meat not factory meat. They dont askew  organ meats and they eat the type of grain that at least isnt the worst offender.

However, you may notice that they are not the most robust people on earth. They tend to be short and narrow through the chest etc. When Oriental people move west and add more meat to their diets their children grow much taller.

Hunter gatherer people were much taller and robust looking than many modern people of today.
 

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LBK said:
Schultz said:
Marc1152 said:
And let's not forget the doctor bills that come with a Western diet. Do you know how expensive it is to manage diabetes ? And all the little aches and pains like bad knee's and back that go away when you stop eating an un natural diet that cause inflammation.. Net net, eating a natural Paleo type diet will save you money and keep you active and healthier and alive longer.
How do you explain traditional Asian diets, which are usually very high in "inflammatory" grain (rice) consumption and moderate dairy consumption, and who do not, generally, suffer from the same maladies as those of us in the Western world suffer from?  Key to the Asian diet is also regular physical activity.

The simple fact remains is that a diet low in processed foods, be it Paleo or home-cooked vegan, and a lifestyle that promotes regular, moderate physical activity, is and will be better than any diet made primarily of processed material loaded with sugar (be it HFCS or cane or whatever) and other chemicals that "promote freshness" and a more sedentary lifestyle (or even one that promotes occasional vigorous activity).
Like I said earlier, Schultz, paleo is as much a philosophy and ideology as anything else. Nothing to do with proper science or history, despite its outward trappings.
And you say this without having read any of the Paleo books that give all the scientific findings.... Are you clairvoyant?
 

greekischristian

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Marc1152 said:
LBK said:
That was only 10,000 years ago or less. Only 33 generations or so.
Check your math, Marc. Your credibility isn't improving.  ;)
Yup.. I clicked and later realized that I had dropped the last 3. It's only been 333 generations since the advent of agriculture.

Here's some math for you. Even if you don't go all 2.5 million years back to the start of the Paleolithic period and just to our common ancestors, you will still have around 1.8 million years. The idea is that 10,000 years is a very short amount of time in evolutionary terms. Our genetic makeup was formed around certain foods. We are disposed genetically to eat them. These "New foods" grains, legumes, dairy etc. not only are not the most healthful foods for us but actually interfere with our nutrition. They contain anti-nutrients, Phyates and such the like.

That's a reasonable theory. We can look at other diets, vegetarianism or vegan ism and see that they will leave us deficient in vital areas. We can see that a more natural human diet, that mimic's what our hunter gatherer ancestors ate is not deficient and in fact all health markers improve when you eat that way.


Sorry if that challenges you in some odd way. I suggest reading up on this. You can decide if the scientific evidence properly presented still seems to be bunk to you or not. I suggest either:

"The Paleo Solution"; by Robb Wolf or

"The Paleo Answer" : by Lorin Cordain or The Paleo Diet, same author

Wolf has a series on You tube, "Ask Robb Wolf Anything"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PpuIKTg6QE
So shouldn't you also be limiting yourself to foods indigenous to Africa? After all, the vast majority of our evolution and existence as a species was in that particular environment. ;)
 

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A real paleo diet would consist of
Living in a semi-nomadic hunter-gatherer society.
Having pemmican made to get you through winter.
Lots of groundhog meat.
If you were lucky enough to be in a band that controlled hardwood forests in the eastern USA you probably could have eaten deer more often.

So get about 150 people you like or know.  Move into the state forest.  Get a spear with rock spearhead.  Take the guys out hunting.  
You can't use modern medicine.

That would be the real paleo diet.  
 

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GiC said:
Marc1152 said:
LBK said:
That was only 10,000 years ago or less. Only 33 generations or so.
Check your math, Marc. Your credibility isn't improving.  ;)
Yup.. I clicked and later realized that I had dropped the last 3. It's only been 333 generations since the advent of agriculture.

Here's some math for you. Even if you don't go all 2.5 million years back to the start of the Paleolithic period and just to our common ancestors, you will still have around 1.8 million years. The idea is that 10,000 years is a very short amount of time in evolutionary terms. Our genetic makeup was formed around certain foods. We are disposed genetically to eat them. These "New foods" grains, legumes, dairy etc. not only are not the most healthful foods for us but actually interfere with our nutrition. They contain anti-nutrients, Phyates and such the like.

That's a reasonable theory. We can look at other diets, vegetarianism or vegan ism and see that they will leave us deficient in vital areas. We can see that a more natural human diet, that mimic's what our hunter gatherer ancestors ate is not deficient and in fact all health markers improve when you eat that way.


Sorry if that challenges you in some odd way. I suggest reading up on this. You can decide if the scientific evidence properly presented still seems to be bunk to you or not. I suggest either:

"The Paleo Solution"; by Robb Wolf or

"The Paleo Answer" : by Lorin Cordain or The Paleo Diet, same author

Wolf has a series on You tube, "Ask Robb Wolf Anything"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PpuIKTg6QE
So shouldn't you also be limiting yourself to foods indigenous to Africa? After all, the vast majority of our evolution and existence as a species was in that particular environment. ;)
Warm up the bbq for some springbok and eland.
 

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NicholasMyra said:
Humans can adapt a lot faster than you think, Marc.
That may be true. But upon careful examination it doesn't look like we have adapted to these "New" foods. Plus, all health markers improve for people eating Paleo. Vegetarians and Vegans become deficient is essential vitamins and minerals. They become iron deficient, B6 and B12 deficient etc.

So what you can say with certainty is that a diet that mimics what our hunter gatherer ancestors ate is not deficient in any way. You are not lacking any essential vitamin or mineral. A diet that is natural for humans should not have such gaps in it that it must be supplemented in order for you not to get sick. That is True for the Plaeo diet and not True for many other ways of eating.

That should tell you something
 

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username! said:
A real paleo diet would consist of
Living in a semi-nomadic hunter-gatherer society.
Having pemmican made to get you through winter.
Lots of groundhog meat.
If you were lucky enough to be in a band that controlled hardwood forests in the eastern USA you probably could have eaten deer more often.

So get about 150 people you like or know.  Move into the state forest.  Get a spear with rock spearhead.  Take the guys out hunting.  
You can't use modern medicine.

That would be the real paleo diet.  
Ummm..Sorta right.

Wild game meat is better for you than raised meat. Meat raised on grass and not fed grain is better. Wild fish are better than farm raised fish...etc.

But you certainly can mimic a Paleo diet to the extent that you avoid  obesity, diabetes, Cancer, heart problems and all kinds of other health problems. You are more fit and will likely live longer.

So....close enough  :)
 

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Marc1152 said:
NicholasMyra said:
Humans can adapt a lot faster than you think, Marc.
That may be true. But upon careful examination it doesn't look like we have adapted to these "New" foods.
I just examined myself. I have most definitely adapted to wheat and cow's milk.  ;)

Speaking of "adaptation", it does not mean finding a perfect equilibrium or "feeling good", it means changing to thrive in an environment. By adapting to eat flour and dairy in adulthood and the like, humans were adapting to survive and thrive in their environments. We continue to do both and, thereby, have become the dominant mammals on the planet. So from an evolutionary perspective, we adapted just fine.
 

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Marc1152 said:
NicholasMyra said:
Humans can adapt a lot faster than you think, Marc.
That may be true. But upon careful examination it doesn't look like we have adapted to these "New" foods. Plus, all health markers improve for people eating Paleo. Vegetarians and Vegans become deficient is essential vitamins and minerals. They become iron deficient, B6 and B12 deficient etc.

So what you can say with certainty is that a diet that mimics what our hunter gatherer ancestors ate is not deficient in any way. You are not lacking any essential vitamin or mineral. A diet that is natural for humans should not have such gaps in it that it must be supplemented in order for you not to get sick. That is True for the Plaeo diet and not True for many other ways of eating.

That should tell you something
You keep throwing things around as facts yet have yet to source peer reviewed studies supporting these very long term conclusions which I firmly believe are only theories.

And yes, i've read the literature.  My wife has at least four paleo diet books and I've read them all.  Big on theory, low on actual scientific study.  Until there is an actual long-term scientific study with a relatively large sample group on the effects of one diet over another, it's all hypothesis and hyperbole for this skeptic.  

As for your comment about Asians not being "robust" as Westerners: so what?  Those people built the Great Wall.  We do not live in a Luddite world.  We do not, as a species, need to be "robust" because we are, pound for pound, the most adaptable and dominant species on this planet because we became a civilized society (and I'm using that term loosely to denote settlement and agriculture), allowing our minds to develop far beyond anything the hunter-gatherers could have imagined.


Again, I have no problem with the diet as a diet.  I have a problem with exhaustive claims about diets.  I know people who thrive on the PD and more power to them.  I also know people who thrive and have thrived on a vegetarian diet for 70+ years.  What works for one person may or may not work for another and genetics and lifestyle have as much to do with it as diet.  
 

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LBK said:
I think wild rice is a grass not a grain.
Wheat is a grass. Wheat is a grain. Get used to it.  Always thought this paleo business was bunk.  ::)
It is.

That is not to say there ain't some rationales in this way of eating. But the "theories" and "practices" are usually silly and frankly absolutely unChristian.
 
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