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Panentheism in Orthodox Christianity

Minnesotan

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biro said:
Minnesotan said:
NicholasMyra said:
What youtube videos?
I tried Googling "Incognito777" to see if I could find the videos he was talking about, but all that came up was a Nietzsche-quoting Twitter account, someone on an investing website, someone who plays online chess, someone on InterracialDatingCentral.com, and the OC.Net thread on whether Christians can enter pagan temples or not. Does he post his YouTube videos under a different screenname?

By the way, does anyone think it's an interesting coincidence that no fewer than three posters on this thread have "777" in their names? Maybe we should all start adding 777 to our own names. How does Minnesotan777 or wgw777 sound?
Are they all the same guy?  :eek:
I doubt it; it seems like it'd be a fairly common screenname and there are probably several different people using it.

Somehow I don't think our Incognito is likely to be a Nietzsche fan, for instance.
 

wgw

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Minnesotan said:
NicholasMyra said:
What youtube videos?
I tried Googling "Incognito777" to see if I could find the videos he was talking about, but all that came up was a Nietzsche-quoting Twitter account, someone on an investing website, someone who plays online chess, someone on InterracialDatingCentral.com, and the OC.Net thread on whether Christians can enter pagan temples or not. Does he post his YouTube videos under a different screenname?

By the way, does anyone think it's an interesting coincidence that no fewer than three posters on this thread have "777" in their names? Maybe we should all start adding 777 to our own names. How does Minnesotan777 or wgw777 sound?
I did once append my name with a Boeing model number, but not the 777.  I do like triple sevens though, particularly the rather sexeh 777-300ER.

Edit: you know I suppose Minnesotan that we might request ournusernames be modified just for the pure heck of it.  We should attempt to persuade Mor Ephrem, biro, and NicholasMyra to join us, for maximum comic value.  Just imagine:  Mor Ephrem777, biro777, NicholasMyra777; in this manner most remaining active members on this thread would have names ending in 777.
 

wgw

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Note on the subject of the OP, Raphael Lassater is a nice enough chap and I have had e-mail dialogues with him.  Interestingly his "atheism" he described as pantheistic.  It is my intention at some point to mirror the public domain content he had on the Peshitta (excluding the somewhat dubious Lamsa Bible which is under copyright) elsewhere, as I am rather fond of the Murdock translation.

I do not know if he is "Incognito777;" I wouod assume from my conversation with him that he would not really care what we think about iconography at this point.
 

wgw

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Fabio Leite said:
Incognito777 said:
There is NO evidence that the apostles ever instructed Christians to bow before and kiss the hands of clergy. If you disagree, cite a source.
14 "If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you. 16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. 17 If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them."
Saint John 13

God did not think it was below Him to wash a sinner's foot, but you think it's below you to kiss a senior's hand... right...

He also did praise a prostitute for washing His feet with her hair and tears. But you can bet that if a kid was to kiss the hand of an older apostle as was the costume of kissing hands to show respect, Christ would have cursed this evil habit.


I'm not playing these kind of games.
You play games of words and lie with truths and half-truths, the worst kind of lie.


Panentheism is not philosophically defensible. It's the pagan deity of Plato
You have to choose one of the above, you can't have the two of them. Either it is the belief of one of the most important philosophers of history who therefore defended it philosophically (and it would make it the most defensible philosophical theism at least), or it was not spoused by Plato.

Also, how can metaphysical hypothesis be anyone's deity, instead of an assumption about the relations between the deity and the world?

Finally, the pagans also created the mathematical language used in this evil pagan artifact you are using.



Binary numbers, of particular importance for this demonic tool, were created by Leibniz from his studies of the pagan spiritual (sometimes used for divination) book I Ching. How do you feel you are using a Chinese divination tool every time you use the computer? ;)
It's coincidental that computers are binary; there were in the early uears some trinary and indeed decimal based systems, and also an interesting creature known as the "analog computer", but these died off for reasons relating to efficiency.  That said, several UNIX hackers of note, such as Eric S. Raymond, are into the occult in a huge way.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Incognito777 said:
"Men must avoid entering into sexual relations on Sundays and feast days in order to not give birth to handicapped children."

St George Karslides"

Did he really say that? Talk about superstitious nonsense. It implies sex is bad, and that somehow God is unhappy if people have sex on those days. But God never said a word about this. Please give me a reference for the quote.
How is that relevant to the topic of this thread?
 

PeterTheAleut

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Incognito777 said:
I new it would only be a matter of time that someone would attack my sources and the authors of the articles I linked to. This is nothing but an Ad Hominem.
No, attacking your sources and the authors of the articles to which you linked for their espousal of heterodox philosophies is anything but an ad hominem.

Incognito777 said:
And I am simply not playing these kind of games. Engage the arguments.
We are engaging the arguments. We're pointing out how they're built on a Protestant world view and understanding of Tradition that we reject.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Minnesotan said:
NicholasMyra said:
What youtube videos?
I tried Googling "Incognito777" to see if I could find the videos he was talking about, but all that came up was a Nietzsche-quoting Twitter account, someone on an investing website, someone who plays online chess, someone on InterracialDatingCentral.com, and the OC.Net thread on whether Christians can enter pagan temples or not. Does he post his YouTube videos under a different screenname?

By the way, does anyone think it's an interesting coincidence that no fewer than three posters on this thread have "777" in their names? Maybe we should all start adding 777 to our own names. How does Minnesotan777 or wgw777 sound?
Google the name Pilgrim1411.
 

Minnesotan

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wgw said:
Fabio Leite said:
Incognito777 said:
There is NO evidence that the apostles ever instructed Christians to bow before and kiss the hands of clergy. If you disagree, cite a source.
14 "If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you. 16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. 17 If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them."
Saint John 13

God did not think it was below Him to wash a sinner's foot, but you think it's below you to kiss a senior's hand... right...

He also did praise a prostitute for washing His feet with her hair and tears. But you can bet that if a kid was to kiss the hand of an older apostle as was the costume of kissing hands to show respect, Christ would have cursed this evil habit.


I'm not playing these kind of games.
You play games of words and lie with truths and half-truths, the worst kind of lie.


Panentheism is not philosophically defensible. It's the pagan deity of Plato
You have to choose one of the above, you can't have the two of them. Either it is the belief of one of the most important philosophers of history who therefore defended it philosophically (and it would make it the most defensible philosophical theism at least), or it was not spoused by Plato.

Also, how can metaphysical hypothesis be anyone's deity, instead of an assumption about the relations between the deity and the world?

Finally, the pagans also created the mathematical language used in this evil pagan artifact you are using.



Binary numbers, of particular importance for this demonic tool, were created by Leibniz from his studies of the pagan spiritual (sometimes used for divination) book I Ching. How do you feel you are using a Chinese divination tool every time you use the computer? ;)
It's coincidental that computers are binary; there were in the early uears some trinary and indeed decimal based systems, and also an interesting creature known as the "analog computer", but these died off for reasons relating to efficiency.  That said, several UNIX hackers of note, such as Eric S. Raymond, are into the occult in a huge way.
Yeah, the whole "Dark Enlightenment" thing, which is hugely popular among hacker and programmer types, is chuck full of that stuff.

Also, in the future, quantum computers (which are not strictly binary, since a qubit can be in both "0" and "1" at the same time a la Schrodinger) may replace binary ones. Quantum computers resemble digital in some ways, and analog in others, thus combining the strengths of both.

By the way, I just looked up Pilgrim1411's views on YouTube. Ironically, one of them is called "Computer Screens Harm The Brain".
 

Mor Ephrem

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NicholasMyra said:
Besides, this is Free-For-All.
NicholasMyra said:
To all readers: Do not get pulled into the side tangents about icons, veneration, etc. Only address the panentheism stuff and whatever falls out from it.
 

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Fabio,

I never denied that Christ washed the apostles feet. The question was: Who ever taught the practice of kissing a clerics hand? Washing feet is totally different from kissing a hand.

Did you seriously argue in defense of Plato's finite and pagan demiourgos deity? His god is not the God of Moses or of our Lord Jesus Christ. Plato's demiourgos is finite and pagan to the core. There are no good arguments supporting Panentheism. Read the sources I referenced.

I have never used the eye of Horus, so your point is irrelevant.
 

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This isn't about Protestants vs. Orthodox. It's about who has the best arguments in support of their positions. Panentheism is simply not defensible philosophically. It's self-contradictory and leads to absurdities.  I'm not playing these Ad Hominem type of games.

The Orthodox energy-essence distinction in God also has serious philosophical problems, because it violates the Law of Excluded Middle, which is one of the three fundamental laws of human reasoning. One cannot deny the three laws of human reasoning without first assuming their validity. To deny them, is to affirm them, so it is self-defeating to argue against them

That Wiccan's hold to Panentheism, see Hawkins, "Witchcraft: Exploring the World of Wicca," p. 34). Question: What concord has Christ with Belial? (2.Cor. 6:15).

 

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Why it is impossible for a Panentheist God to Exist (video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGXu0u06Lqs
 

Arachne

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Incognito777 said:
Why it is impossible for a Panentheist God to Exist (video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGXu0u06Lqs
'Eclectic Media'

'May Science bless you, like it does everyday!'

ROFL
 

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Incognito777 said:
The Orthodox energy-essence distinction in God also has serious philosophical problems, because it violates the Law of Excluded Middle, which is one of the three fundamental laws of human reasoning. One cannot deny the three laws of human reasoning without first assuming their validity. To deny them, is to affirm them, so it is self-defeating to argue against them.
Oh, hush. The law of excluded middle both did and didn't go out with Schrodinger's cat.
 

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Sorry, I misstated my argument using the Law of Excluded Middle. I meant:

The Orthodox view that God in his ESSENCE IS BEYOND BEING AND NON-BEING also has serious philosophical problems, because it violates the Law of Excluded Middle, which is one of the three fundamental laws of human reasoning. One cannot deny the three laws of human reasoning without first assuming their validity. To deny them, is to affirm them, so it is self-defeating to argue against them.
 

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Minnesotan said:
Oh, hush. The law of excluded middle both did and didn't go out with Schrodinger's cat.
Do you people lie in order to make your points? You just assumed the validity of the Law of Excluded Middle by arguing against it. You cannot deny it, without first assuming it.
 

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"did an didn't go out," is a violation of the Law of Non-Contradiction. I guess you were just being silly.
 

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Incognito777 said:
Fabio,

I never denied that Christ washed the apostles feet. The question was: Who ever taught the practice of kissing a clerics hand? Washing feet is totally different from kissing a hand.

Did you seriously argue in defense of Plato's finite and pagan demiourgos deity? His god is not the God of Moses or of our Lord Jesus Christ. Plato's demiourgos is finite and pagan to the core. There are no good arguments supporting Panentheism. Read the sources I referenced.

I have never used the eye of Horus, so your point is irrelevant.
On your first point, you are sewking to apply the so-called "regulative principle," which is basically heterodox if not ecclesiological heresy.

On your second point, I saw no one expressing a belief in a demiurge.  This is not gnosticchristianity.net.
 

wgw

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Incognito777 said:
This isn't about Protestants vs. Orthodox. It's about who has the best arguments in support of their positions. Panentheism is simply not defensible philosophically. It's self-contradictory and leads to absurdities.  I'm not playing these Ad Hominem type of games.

The Orthodox energy-essence distinction in God also has serious philosophical problems, because it violates the Law of Excluded Middle, which is one of the three fundamental laws of human reasoning. One cannot deny the three laws of human reasoning without first assuming their validity. To deny them, is to affirm them, so it is self-defeating to argue against them

That Wiccan's hold to Panentheism, see Hawkins, "Witchcraft: Exploring the World of Wicca," p. 34). Question: What concord has Christ with Belial? (2.Cor. 6:15).
Barlaamism!  Alas, no, because without essence/energies our Lord would have contradicted Himself regarding the father being visible in Himself, yet no one having seem God at any time.  Essence/energies also clarifies the scriptural references in support of theosis.
 

wgw

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Incognito777 said:
Sorry, I misstated my argument using the Law of Excluded Middle. I meant:

The Orthodox view that God in his ESSENCE IS BEYOND BEING AND NON-BEING also has serious philosophical problems, because it violates the Law of Excluded Middle, which is one of the three fundamental laws of human reasoning. One cannot deny the three laws of human reasoning without first assuming their validity. To deny them, is to affirm them, so it is self-defeating to argue against them.
Only in a doctrinaire Aristotleian - Thomistic sense; Null A logic allows us to sidestep this problem.  It also explains phenomena like certain effects of quantum mechanics.
 

wgw

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Incognito777 said:
Minnesotan said:
Oh, hush. The law of excluded middle both did and didn't go out with Schrodinger's cat.
Do you people lie in order to make your points? You just assumed the validity of the Law of Excluded Middle by arguing against it. You cannot deny it, without first assuming it.
On the contrary, one can apply this law to conditions to which itnis applicable while not applying it to that which is in effect indeterminate.

Note also there are ways of rephrasing the comtroversial statement about God so as to not violate this petty human epistemological quibble.

If on the other hand we rejected the universal immanence and at the same time the transcendent essence of God, you would have us perform idolatrous service at the altar of the false god of anthropomorphology.
 

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I think I said that Hindus and Buddhists believe in Panentheism. This was an error on my part. They actually hold to Pantheism.
 

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wgw,

You're contradicting yourself and proving that you assume those laws by arguing against them. I'm getting concerned about the responses I see here, because they are not philosophically sophisticated. I'm going to have consult with someone else.
 

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Incognito777 said:
wgw,

You're contradicting yourself and proving that you assume those laws by arguing against them. I'm getting concerned about the responses I see here, because they are not philosophically sophisticated. I'm going to have consult with someone else.
Please do so.  Take as much time as you need.  Be thorough. 
 

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No one has seen God at anytime. True, but you forgot the rest of the verse. "the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known." (John 1:18). The son has revealed the Father.  According to Orthodoxy, Jesus must have been referring to the Father's energies, since His essence is inaccessible.
 

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I'd also like to point out that Trinitarianism itself isn't Aristotelian.

The famous Shield of the Trinity above (which graphically illustrates the Nicene Creed) is only logically consistent if

[list type=decimal]
[*]we say that "God" is merely an adjective and not a noun, or
[*]we use a form of intransitive logic (in which syllogisms are not automatically assumed). This requires moving away from Aristotelianism.
[/list]

Since option 1 has already been condemned as heresy (namely tritheism), that leaves us only with 2. I think it's worth pointing out that many of the thinkers who took part in the scholastic and nominalist movements in the West (from the Carolingian Renaissance onward) ended up falling into heresy because of the "logical" arguments they used. Roscellinus (who embraced tritheism) is one example.

There are many other forms of logic that are every bit as consistent as Aristotelian logic (if not more so), but that don't make as many assumptions (and therefore make more sense from an epistemological standpoint). Bayesian probability is itself a form of logic, in which truth values are any number between 0 and 1. And that's just one example.
 

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Incognito777 said:
The god of Panentheism is finite: high on the finite scale of being, but not at the infinite level. The God of biblical Christianity is pure actuality with no unrealized potentialities.  He does not grow, learn, expand, or develop.  If Christians are worshiping anyone other than the classical God of biblical theism, than they are worshiping a pagan deity. Read the information in the links I cited.
So Christ isn't God, then?  He grew, developed, learned...

If one can fully conceive of the highest conceivable being, then that being is completely encompassed within one's own knowledge and experience, is it not?

And I'm curious about "no unrealized potentialities"...does this mean there are parallel dimensions?  Or are all potentialities fully realized in this one reality?

It sounds like you're saying that God is fully conceivable in all His aspects by the human mind and also immutable.  Which all well and good for us; He can't surprise us and we can make Him do and be whatever our minds please.
 

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To the person who tried to justify the concept of kissing a clergyman's hand by referencing the biblical passage where Jesus washed the disciples feet, and told them to do the same, I have a question for you. When was the last time a clergyman washed your feet, and when was the last time you washed his? And when was the last time a clergyman kissed your hand?
 

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Incognito777 said:
To the person who tried to justify the concept of kissing a clergyman's hand by referencing the biblical passage where Jesus washed the disciples feet, and told them to do the same, I have a question for you. When was the last time a clergyman washed your feet, and when was the last time you washed his? And when was the last time a clergyman kissed your hand?
Is there any possible way you can stay on topic? You're wandering all over the place.
 

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Incognito777 said:
To the person who
You can't bother to scroll up a bit to find that person's post and quote it, or at least reference them by name, and you expect others to bother to give you thoughtful responses?

Go back to your blog.
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
Incognito777 said:
To the person who tried to justify the concept of kissing a clergyman's hand by referencing the biblical passage where Jesus washed the disciples feet, and told them to do the same, I have a question for you. When was the last time a clergyman washed your feet, and when was the last time you washed his? And when was the last time a clergyman kissed your hand?
Is there any possible way you can stay on topic? You're wandering all over the place.
Well, Pope Francis washes prisoners' feet.

I would be surprised if there weren't also Orthodox clerics who do the same.
 

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Minnesotan said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Incognito777 said:
To the person who tried to justify the concept of kissing a clergyman's hand by referencing the biblical passage where Jesus washed the disciples feet, and told them to do the same, I have a question for you. When was the last time a clergyman washed your feet, and when was the last time you washed his? And when was the last time a clergyman kissed your hand?
Is there any possible way you can stay on topic? You're wandering all over the place.
Well, Pope Francis washes prisoners' feet.

I would be surprised if there weren't also Orthodox clerics who do the same.
You quote my request to stay on topic only to offer your own equally off-topic reply? What about "stay on topic" do you guys not understand?
 

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Incognito777 said:
To the person who tried to justify the concept of kissing a clergyman's hand by referencing the biblical passage where Jesus washed the disciples feet, and told them to do the same, I have a question for you. When was the last time a clergyman washed your feet, and when was the last time you washed his? And when was the last time a clergyman kissed your hand?
Oh, you(thymios)!
 

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Justin Kissel said:
While Bp. Kallistos has used the term to describe the Orthodox view, I am wary of the term. The term has been used in questionable ways, and is a possible source of confusion. Certainly our understanding of panentheism is radically different than that of Marcus Borg, or some of the unorthodox interpretations and speculations based on things like the spurious Gospel of Thomas (Saying 77). While I think it is a good starting point, I also think it important that it be a term that is very precisely defined, to avoid confusion.
I think I'm on board with this kind of view.  I never heard this term until this thread, I bet myself this was some academic neologism coined by some German in the 1800s and given a Greek name to sound respectable and necessarily precise and vague all at once.

It turns out my hunch was spot on:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panentheism/#His

It was a term invented by a philosopher named Karl Kraus.  This seems like an odd area to be getting definitions from,  and an odd culture to expect much dialogue with,  even if it is a deliberate reworking of the term.  Then again, Athanasius used heretical terms and reformulated them into doctrine, so my natural distaste for these kind of words and how we use them is easily negated by able practitioners.
 

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The idea of a God who is both infinite and finite, necessary and contingent, absolute and relative, is contradictory. The idea of a self-caused being is contradictory. The Panentheist God is not really God, but the being that grounds him is really God. In Panentheism, God is limited to space and time. But anything limited to space and time cannot think faster than the speed of light.

THE BIBLICAL GOD = Creator, Creation ex nihilo, Sovereign over world, Independent of world, Unchanging, Absolutely Perfect, Monopolar, Actually Infinite, Pure actuality with no unrealized potentialities.

PANENTHEIST GOD= Director, Creation ex materia, Working with world, Dependant on world, Changing, Growing more perfect, Bipolar, Finite and contingent.

That Wiccan's hold to Panentheism, see Hawkins, "Witchcraft: Exploring the World of Wicca," p. 34). Question: What concord has Christ with Belial? (2.Cor. 6:15).

The finite demiourgos deity of Plato is the forerunner of Panentheism.
Panentheism is not to be confused with Pantheism.
 
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NicholasMyra said:
Incognito, gonna respond to my post?
he won't, he will just make a video about us all being liars, in prelest, and demonic, just like everyone else he "exposes" in his videos  ::)
 

Aspect

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I found this to be highly interesting:
Most specifically, these Churches teach that God is not the "watchmaker God" of the Western European Enlightenment.
The watchmaker argument is a form of the teleological argument which we see in the teaching of Church Fathers. A Christian cannot accept panentheism, because it is a different worldview than Christian theism. A panentheistic god is not the greatest conceivable being. Read these articles by Craig and Geisler.

Dr. William Lane Craig on Panentheism.
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/question-answer/P200/panentheism

Dr. Norman Geisler on Panentheism.
https://www.jashow.org/articles/panentheism-part-1/

In my analysis anyone who believes in panentheism is not a clear thinker or good philosopher. Panentheism is pagan, and has no place in Christianity.
 

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14 "If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you. 16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. 17 If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them."
Saint John 13
That response doesn't apply to the question that was asked, which was specific about clergy. Can you show a clergyman bowing before and kissing a layman on any day other than the forgiveness Sunday ritual?
 
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