• A blessed Nativity / Theophany season to all! For users new and old: the forum rules were streamlined when we transitioned to the new software. Please ensure that you are familiar with them. Continued use of the forum means that you (a) know the rules, and (b) pledge that you'll abide by them. For more information, check out the OrthodoxChristianity.Net Rules section. (There are only 2 threads there - Rules, and Administrative Structure.)

Papal Liturgy nowadays

Michał

High Elder
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
821
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
33
Location
Mazovia, Poland
I am aware of the fact that the current Pope never serves according to the "Extraordinary form of the Roman Rite," only according to what he himself (in 1990) called "a fabrication, a banal product of the moment." But even a NOM Liturgy can be done in the "Tridentine style." Is it the case with Papal Masses nowadays? Are they served ad orientem or versus populum? In Latin or in vernacular? With Gregorian chant or with modern singing? With the "big six" and a crucifix on the altar or with some contemporary alternatives of those?
 

Irish Hermit

Merarches
Joined
Oct 11, 2003
Messages
10,980
Reaction score
3
Points
0
Location
Middle Earth
Located a website which gives the sources when Cardinal Ratzinger made this statement not once but twice.

http://www.summorumpontificum.net/2009/08/archbishop-nichols-versus-cardinal.html

In Revue Theologisches, Vol. 20, Feb. 1990, pgs. 103-104, then Cardinal Ratzinger stated:


"The liturgical reform, in its concrete realization, has distanced itself even more from its origin. The result has not been a reanimation, but devastation. In place of the liturgy, fruit of a continual development, they have placed a fabricated liturgy. They have deserted a vital process of growth and becoming in order to substitute a fabrication.They did not want to continue the development, the organic maturing of something living through the centuries, and they replaced it, in the manner of technical production, by a fabrication, a banal product of the moment."


In the preface to the French translation of Monsignor Klaus Gamber's most famous book, Die Reform der römischen Liturgie (The Reform of the Roman Rite) then Cardinal Ratzinger stated:


"What happened after the Council was altogether different: instead of a liturgy fruit of continuous development, a fabricated liturgy was put in its place. A living growing process was abandoned and the fabrication started. There was no further wish to continue the organic evolution and maturation of the living being throughout the centuries and they were replaced -- as if in a technical production -- by a fabrication, a banal product of the moment. Gamber, with the vigilance of a true visionary and with the fearlessness of a true witness, opposed this falsification and tirelessly taught us the living fullness of a true liturgy, thanks to his incredibly rich knowledge of the sources. As a man who knew and who loved history, he showed us the multiple forms of the evolution and of the path of the liturgy; as a man who saw history from the inside, he saw in this development and in the fruit of this development the intangible reflection of the eternal liturgy, which is not the object of our action, but which may marvelously continue to blossom and to ripen, if we join its mystery intimately."
 
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
466
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
newseminaryproject.org
pope Benedict like many people...is ..full of contradictions.

I myself am surely full of contradictions.

All you have to do is watch EWTN and many of your questions would be answered.
It is streamed online 24/7 if you have high speed access.

Here are my answers which may not be strictly accurate, but are generally so.


No, most if not ALL publicly celebrated masses are done in the made up "versus populum" form.

Privately and for masses which receive less publicity, he has celebrated ad orientem.

This appears to be because this is a symbolic move to not face people and the liberal local bishops become afraid or extra rebellious if he does this. It is "politically unacceptable" (so much for his authority right?),

The Big six candles with elaborate holders and Crucifix are I think ALWAYS used.

90% of the mass is said in latin, except for the intercessions for the people, gospel, epistle and lesson (homily/sermon), which are in fact often read by guest lay people or clerics from different countries and different languages.

Of all the things I think music has improved the most.

This is actually a good thing. Medieval Chant and 16th c polyphonic settings are much more common place than they were 5 years ago.

However, so far, this has little effect on the typical Latin parish church, which continues to use the guitar and modernist/secular/protestant style hymnody globdeygook almost as much as it did 10 years ago. However many of the suburban parishes in the USA are more cutting edge and have made more improvements towards tradition..but this is still..incrementally..maybe 10% better than 2000. There is a long way to go for the average parish..it is still immensely unorthodox musically.


So yes,

Pope benedict is apparently a hypocrit in many ways, or at least someone who is very difficult for the average individual to understand in terms of liturgical matters, it is rightfully most confusing.

This is one of the grave concerns many traditionalist catholics which support the pre-vat II Latin Mass have of him within in the past 3 years that he has not been radical enough, and brought only small doses of change.

In fact there has almost been a depression amongst many that the 1962 form Latin Mass to celebrate his papal anniversay which was successful last in April of 2010 at the National Shrine of the Basilica of the Immaculate Conception has been cancelled for 2011. The Paulus Institute which tried to schedule it again found great opposition to it from Donald Cardinal Wuerl who was last year only an Archbishop. Essentially certain US bishops and or Cardinals, such as Wuerl, feel threatened by traditional latin catholics and fear that if 5000 of them regularly show up on the footsteps of the largest basilica in the USA..the pandoras box of "bad nasty pre-vatican II era" will be opened wide forevermore.

Since the 2007 papal motu proprio "Summorum pontificum" supposedly freeing the usage of the Latin mass, many catholics try to unite and have this ancient form of mass celebrated. They take polls, they pray rosaries, they send thousands of signatures to the "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" in Rome complaining that their diocese will not allow celebrate of traditional masses. They have no responses. So far the bishops and priests are usually very much against it. This 2007 directive has  ignored and maligned against bitterly by much of the latin hierarchy, which even at this moment appear to be finding new methods to subvert and destroy any of its influence to revive ancient tradition. The handful that support it are ostracized and punished privately.

I think this is a fair assessment and have been saddened that all the "power" and infallibility of the papacy is in reality, rather powerless and ineffectual. Since the post vatican II era, bishops hold the real power, perhaps they always have.

Orthodoxy makes sense because at least it acknowledges that which is impossible...whereas for the Latin church the impossible is acknowledged as reality..

If the Orthodox Church is seen as an embarrassment and joke because of it's jurisdictional and or ethnic rivalries/lack of unity, the Latin Catholic church is also seen as an embarrassment due to it's papal authority/centralization being rather illusionary and rarely making an appearance in terms of supporting the "Orthodox" form of ancient latin liturgy.
 

Alpo

Merarches
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
Messages
9,878
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Michał said:
I am aware of the fact that the current Pope never serves according to the "Extraordinary form of the Roman Rite,"
Has HH explicitly said that he will never celebrate it or is it just yet to be done?
 

Michał

High Elder
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
821
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
33
Location
Mazovia, Poland
Alpo said:
Michał said:
I am aware of the fact that the current Pope never serves according to the "Extraordinary form of the Roman Rite,"
Has HH explicitly said that he will never celebrate it or is it just yet to be done?
There are rumours that he does celebrate it privately but will never do it publically -- to avoid tensions in the RCC.
 

Robb

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
1,537
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
New Jersey and Kansas
I don't see why the Novus Ordo Mass is such a problem.  The liturgy can be celebrated very authentically and with great reverence.  It also has a far more Eastern flavor to it then the so called Tridentine rite did.  I have a feeling that, if the Novus Ordo mass has failed Catholics (Supposedly) then this has more to do with those who wish to give the impression that it has done so. 

Most RC's that I have met, including my own family members like the Novus Ordo Mass and its more "horizontal" emphasis.  They have no desire to return to the pre Vatican II Tridentine rite and the kind of theology/morality that accompanied it.  Those who wish to do so are just a small and disenfranchised minority who are trying to force their own disgruntled beliefs on some 95% of Catholics who are quit happy with the way things are now in their Church.  However this minority is very vocal (What minority these days isn't) and they are able to spread around this perception that Catholicism is falling apart and that only by returning to the pre Vatican II days can it be saved.
 

Schultz

Taxiarches
Joined
Oct 17, 2002
Messages
6,691
Reaction score
3
Points
38
Age
45
Location
BaltiCORE, MD
Website
www.theidlegossip.com
Robb said:
I don't see why the Novus Ordo Mass is such a problem.  The liturgy can be celebrated very authentically and with great reverence.  It also has a far more Eastern flavor to it then the so called Tridentine rite did.  I have a feeling that, if the Novus Ordo mass has failed Catholics (Supposedly) then this has more to do with those who wish to give the impression that it has done so. 

Most RC's that I have met, including my own family members like the Novus Ordo Mass and its more "horizontal" emphasis.  They have no desire to return to the pre Vatican II Tridentine rite and the kind of theology/morality that accompanied it.  Those who wish to do so are just a small and disenfranchised minority who are trying to force their own disgruntled beliefs on some 95% of Catholics who are quit happy with the way things are now in their Church.  However this minority is very vocal (What minority these days isn't) and they are able to spread around this perception that Catholicism is falling apart and that only by returning to the pre Vatican II days can it be saved.
Umm, you do realize that, 42 years ago, the exact same thing was said about those who pushed the NO onto unsuspecting Catholics, yes?
 
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
466
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
newseminaryproject.org
I don't see why the Novus Ordo Mass is such a problem.  The liturgy can be celebrated very authentically and with great reverence.  It also has a far more Eastern flavor to it then the so called Tridentine rite did.
I have heard the rare Orthodox christian say something similar to this before, though rarely with quite that much favourableness.

What way does the Novus Ordo (Mass of Paul VI officially is the name) have a more "Eastern flavour" ?

Perhaps you're one of the liberal Orthodox who wants to change your own church to copy the recent western liturgical movements?  Otherwise I can imagine you're forming impressions based on subjective feelings and not actually studying the historical and theogical facts of the older or newer latin liturgy very closely. A theologically minimalist approach.

I don't mean to make you sound ignorant or stupid (though I do have suspicions) but..this is really an amazing comment for myself to hear such favourableness toward the novus ordo from an Orthodox Christian.

If you like the Novus ordo so much..why dont you marry it?



 
Joined
Dec 19, 2008
Messages
3,397
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
41
Christopher McAvoy said:
I don't see why the Novus Ordo Mass is such a problem.  The liturgy can be celebrated very authentically and with great reverence.  It also has a far more Eastern flavor to it then the so called Tridentine rite did.
I have heard the rare Orthodox christian say something similar to this before, though rarely with quite that much favourableness.

What way does the Novus Ordo (Mass of Paul VI officially is the name) have a more "Eastern flavour" ?

Perhaps you're one of the liberal Orthodox who wants to change your own church to copy the recent western liturgical movements?  Otherwise I can imagine you're forming impressions based on very feelings and not actually studying the older or newer latin liturgy very closely.

I don't mean to make you sound ignorant or stupid (though I do have suspicions) but..this is really an amazing comment for myself to hear such favourableness toward the novus ordo from an Orthodox Christian.

If you like it so much..why dont you marry it?
Yowsers! Put the claws away!

I have read the NO Mass, and I think (though I don't tend to presume) what Robb is saying is that some of the language is similar to that of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great. In recent modifications that the College of Cardinals have made to the Mass, they seem to be leaning more towards the same language used in the Divine Liturgy.

This is simply an observation. I could be 110% wrong, and off base.

However, as the Church's have a shared History, and both Church's venerate St. Basil the Great and St. John Chrysostom, it would not be unreasonable to suppose that the College of Cardinals would draw inspiration by the man called "golden mouthed" and one of the great theologians of the Church.

In regards to the "If you like it so much..why dont you marry it?" comment, in addition to it being rather snarky, I think it's a bit of a cheap shot. Robb was raised Catholic and converted to Orthodoxy. Many posters on this board are former Catholics.

His comment was not disrespectful towards the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church, so I don't know where you get off being so rude.

Also, to imply that he is ignorant and/or stupid? Really?

We just got out of Lent and celebrated Pascha. Although we can eat meat again, that doesn't mean we should chew out each other.

Please, put the claws away. This is a discussion forum where we openly discuss things. No need to tear one another apart.  :angel:
 
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
466
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
newseminaryproject.org
Yes, I admit.

I have nothing favourable to say about the Novus ordo.

Therefore I will remove myself from the discussion.
My feelings are too strong. But the fact that you are ex-catholics tells me some things.

You ought to ask yourselves if the language of the western rite orthodox mass is further removed from the liturgy of john chrysostom compared to novus ordo.

I leave you with these three links which say all that needs to be said:

http://psallitesapienter.blogspot.com/2010/05/three-most-untraditional-prayers.html

http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Apologia/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ5it20gKqw&feature=related

Christ is risen!
 

elijahmaria

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
6,515
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
irenikontheskete.blogspot.com
Schultz said:
Robb said:
I don't see why the Novus Ordo Mass is such a problem.  The liturgy can be celebrated very authentically and with great reverence.  It also has a far more Eastern flavor to it then the so called Tridentine rite did.  I have a feeling that, if the Novus Ordo mass has failed Catholics (Supposedly) then this has more to do with those who wish to give the impression that it has done so. 

Most RC's that I have met, including my own family members like the Novus Ordo Mass and its more "horizontal" emphasis.  They have no desire to return to the pre Vatican II Tridentine rite and the kind of theology/morality that accompanied it.  Those who wish to do so are just a small and disenfranchised minority who are trying to force their own disgruntled beliefs on some 95% of Catholics who are quit happy with the way things are now in their Church.  However this minority is very vocal (What minority these days isn't) and they are able to spread around this perception that Catholicism is falling apart and that only by returning to the pre Vatican II days can it be saved.
Umm, you do realize that, 42 years ago, the exact same thing was said about those who pushed the NO onto unsuspecting Catholics, yes?
There's an up-side to this.  There's fewer of us today who are quite so easily bowled over...or taken off guard...eh?   :)
 

Robb

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
1,537
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
New Jersey and Kansas
Christopher McAvoy said:
I don't see why the Novus Ordo Mass is such a problem. The liturgy can be celebrated very authentically and with great reverence.  It also has a far more Eastern flavor to it then the so called Tridentine rite did.
I have heard the rare Orthodox christian say something similar to this before, though rarely with quite that much favourableness.

What way does the Novus Ordo (Mass of Paul VI officially is the name) have a more "Eastern flavour" ?

Perhaps you're one of the liberal Orthodox who wants to change your own church to copy the recent western liturgical movements? Otherwise I can imagine you're forming impressions based on subjective feelings and not actually studying the historical and theological facts of the older or newer latin liturgy very closely. A theologically minimalist approach.

I don't mean to make you sound ignorant or stupid (though I do have suspicions) but..this is really an amazing comment for myself to hear such favourableness toward the novus ordo from an Orthodox Christian.

If you like the Novus ordo so much..why dont you marry it?
You've never heard a single person praise the NO Mass?  Do you live under some type of rock?  
It sounds like you definitely are a "traditionalist" Catholic, filled with venom and arrogance towards anyone who doesn't share your eccentric and dismal viewpoints.  You people are what drove me away from Catholicism in the first place.
The NO has the definite Eastern flavored to it, it isn't a stale creation like its Tridentine predecessor (Something that the Pope also said about the Latin Mass which nobody ever bothers to bring up).
 

Robb

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
1,537
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
New Jersey and Kansas
The [liturgical] additions of the late Middle Ages were eliminated, and at the same time severe measures were adopted to prevent a rebirth. .... At that time, the fate of the Western liturgy was linked to a set authority, which worked in a strictly bureaucratic way, lacking any historic vision and considering the problem of the liturgy from the sole viewpoint of rubrics and ceremonies, like a problem of etiquette in a saint's court, so to speak.

As a consequence of this link, there was a complete archeologization of the liturgy, which from the state of a living history was changed into that of pure conservation and, therefore, condemned to an internal death. Liturgy became once and forever a closed construction, firmly petrified. The more it was concerned about the integrity of pre-existent formulas, the more it lost its connection to concrete devotions ....

In this situation, the baroque carved it [the liturgy] superimposing a people's para-liturgy over its true and proper archeologized liturgy. The solemn baroque mass, through the splendor of the orchestra's performance, became a kind of sacred opera, in which the songs of the priest had their role as did the alternating recitals. .... On the ordinary days that did not allow such a performance, devotions that followed the people's mentality were often added to the mass.

(Joseph Ratzinger, Problemi e risultati del Concilio Vaticano II, Brescia: Queriniana, 1967, pp. 25-27)

 

elijahmaria

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
6,515
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
irenikontheskete.blogspot.com
Christopher McAvoy said:
Yes, I admit.

I have nothing favourable to say about the Novus ordo.
Indeed He is Risen!

The best thing to be said about the normative liturgy of the Roman rite is that it is an approved liturgical translation with approved rubrics.  It has fed many spiritually and will continue to do so for many generations.  

There are times when I go simply to experience the clarity of the message and the clean clear lines of the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

To those who worship in its bosom daily or weekly it is home.

When I said I was going to translate to one of the eastern Catholic Churches a very close spiritual guide screwed up his face and said "Why?  It is a repetitive and boring liturgy!!"

I have learned that the nay-sayers are actually the losers.  I prefer to love all approved liturgies, each one perfect in its own rite...right?   :)
 

Deacon Lance

Protokentarchos
Joined
Oct 26, 2002
Messages
4,206
Reaction score
23
Points
38
Age
48
Location
Washington, PA
I'll back up Rob here and say I know many Latin Catholics that are just fine with the NO and want nothing to do with the Tridentine Rite, and they are not always liberals either.
 

Papist

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
13,771
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
39
Location
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Christopher,
Have you ever been to an N.O. mass that is celebrated properly? There is, indeed, a beautiful simplicity.
 

Maria

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 8, 2003
Messages
14,023
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
USA
Website
www.euphrosynoscafe.com
Christopher McAvoy said:
I don't see why the Novus Ordo Mass is such a problem.  The liturgy can be celebrated very authentically and with great reverence.  It also has a far more Eastern flavor to it then the so called Tridentine rite did.
I have heard the rare Orthodox christian say something similar to this before, though rarely with quite that much favourableness.

What way does the Novus Ordo (Mass of Paul VI officially is the name) have a more "Eastern flavour" ?

Perhaps you're one of the liberal Orthodox who wants to change your own church to copy the recent western liturgical movements?  Otherwise I can imagine you're forming impressions based on subjective feelings and not actually studying the historical and theogical facts of the older or newer latin liturgy very closely. A theologically minimalist approach.

I don't mean to make you sound ignorant or stupid (though I do have suspicions) but..this is really an amazing comment for myself to hear such favourableness toward the novus ordo from an Orthodox Christian.

If you like the Novus ordo so much..why dont you marry it?
When I was attending the Melkite Eastern Catholic Church, their Bishop said that Melkite Theologians played a prominent role at Vatican II.
They encouraged a return to the more ancient forms of the Latin Mass (Gregorian Mass) in the Novus Ordo:

The procession carrying the Gospel into the Santuary (is from the East and is a return to the Ancient form).
The litanies (are from the East and is a return to the Ancient form).
Communion under both forms (is from the original Latin Mass of St. Gregory (not Pius V) and is a return to the Ancient form).

However:
Facing the people (is not from the East and is not a return to the Ancient form).
 

Papist

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
13,771
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
39
Location
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Maria said:
However:
Facing the people (is not from the East and is not a return to the Ancient form).
And is not in the rubrics either. In fact, good litrugists consider "versus populem" to be a liturgical abuse.
 
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
466
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
newseminaryproject.org
The Western Rite Orthodox Mass is the only form of "Novus Ordo" I believe in.

as posted here:
http://members.cox.net/stgregoryoc/liturgy.htm

and here:
http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Sarum-Missal-2008-draft-Sept-08.pdf

You'd think there'd be more supporters of that on an Orthodox forum.

 

Maria

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 8, 2003
Messages
14,023
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
USA
Website
www.euphrosynoscafe.com
Christopher McAvoy said:
The Western Rite Orthodox Mass is the only form of "Novus Ordo" I believe in.

as posted here:
http://members.cox.net/stgregoryoc/liturgy.htm

and here:
http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Sarum-Missal-2008-draft-Sept-08.pdf

You'd think there'd be more supporters of that on an Orthodox forum.
Thanks for those liturgies. Where did you get them?
 

Michał

High Elder
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
821
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
33
Location
Mazovia, Poland
Maria said:
The procession carrying the Gospel into the Santuary (is from the East and is a return to the Ancient form).
The litanies (are from the East and is a return to the Ancient form).
Communion under both forms (is from the original Latin Mass of St. Gregory (not Pius V) and is a return to the Ancient form).
First of all, these are neither mandatory, nor globally standard for the NOM. Moreover, AFAIK, not only Communion under both species, but also the procession and the litanies are from the pre-Tridentine Latin rites/uses which were more splendid and more akin to the Eastern Liturgies.

[quote author=http://valleadurni.blogspot.com/2008/02/sarum-candlemas-07-epistle-and-gradual.html]Professor Dobszay comments that the 'Tridentine Rite' is in fact a cut-down version (for the use of the Roman Curia) of the true Roman Rite which existed throughout the West in various forms.[/quote]

[quote author=http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2010/05/future-liturgy-of-anglican-ordinariate_15.html]The fact that Sarum became obsolete preserved it from tampering hands at that time. The full ceremonial is very ornate and reminiscent of Byzantine splendour, with the use of flabellae and scores of men and boys apparelled in copes and dalmatics. That kind of liturgical life . . . is quite a contrast from the Counter-Reformation sobriety of the Roman rite in its extraordinary form.[/quote]
 

Michał

High Elder
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
821
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
33
Location
Mazovia, Poland
Christopher McAvoy said:
The Western Rite Orthodox Mass is the only form of "Novus Ordo" I believe in.

as posted here:
http://members.cox.net/stgregoryoc/liturgy.htm

and here:
http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Sarum-Missal-2008-draft-Sept-08.pdf
Just a sidenote for those interested: the former is used by some AWRV parishes, the latter -- by Fr. Aidan (Keller) of the ROCOR (currently, only occasionally -- when he visits St. Nicholas Monastery in Ft. Myers, Florida).
 

PJ

Taxiarches
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
6,494
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
New England
This is of course a complicated issue. I have a couple a little points I'd like to add ...

As already mentioned (but I think it's worth repeating) the OF permits (without requiring) certain things not permitted in the EF. For example, can be said versus populi, but it does not have to be.

Also, some things in the OF depend on which language it is being celebrated in. (The EF can only be celebrated in Latin.) For English we have the much-objected-to phrase “for all”, but in Latin it remains “pro multis”. (In French it's “pour la multitude.”)

This brings me to another little point that's seldom mentioned: for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop. The reason this is significant (if it isn't already obvious) is that saying the creed in Greek means saying it according to the text of 381; there's no filioque-issue as there is in other languages.
 

Michał

High Elder
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
821
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
33
Location
Mazovia, Poland
Peter J said:
. . . for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop.
You mean, possible for whom? A priest? A layperson?

Peter J said:
The reason this is significant . . . is that saying the creed in Greek means saying it according to the text of 381 . . .
Are you saying that the Roman Catholics in Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Greece) say the Creed without the Filioque? Do you have any proof for that?

Peter J said:
. . . there's no filioque-issue as there is in other languages.
So what? ??? (Assuming that you are right.)
 

ialmisry

Strategos
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
41,795
Reaction score
2
Points
36
Location
Chicago
Peter J said:
This is of course a complicated issue. I have a couple a little points I'd like to add ...

As already mentioned (but I think it's worth repeating) the OF permits (without requiring) certain things not permitted in the EF. For example, can be said versus populi, but it does not have to be.

Also, some things in the OF depend on which language it is being celebrated in. (The EF can only be celebrated in Latin.) For English we have the much-objected-to phrase “for all”, but in Latin it remains “pro multis”. (In French it's “pour la multitude.”)

This brings me to another little point that's seldom mentioned: for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop. The reason this is significant (if it isn't already obvious) is that saying the creed in Greek means saying it according to the text of 381; there's no filioque-issue as there is in other languages.
What do you mean by that?

In Latin Romanian, the Orthodox say "Care din Tatăl purcede" which the "Romanian Greek Catholic Church United with Rome" corrupts to "Care de la Tatăl şi de la Fiul purcede."
 

elijahmaria

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
6,515
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
irenikontheskete.blogspot.com
Michał said:
Peter J said:
. . . for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop.
You mean, possible for whom? A priest? A layperson?

Peter J said:
The reason this is significant . . . is that saying the creed in Greek means saying it according to the text of 381 . . .
Are you saying that the Roman Catholics in Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Greece) say the Creed without the Filioque? Do you have any proof for that?

Peter J said:
. . . there's no filioque-issue as there is in other languages.
So what? ??? (Assuming that you are right.)
Don't be too prickly...Christ is Risen!!

He is right about the filioque.  In Greek it is a heresy because in Greek the word used to indicate procession inherently means source as in originate source or cause.  In Latin "procede" does not have the singular and absolute meaning of originate cause and so the Filioque does not indicate that the Son is the originate cause...That is reserved, in the Latin rite, to the Father.

The filioque should never be said in the Creed when the Creed is recited in Greek...

 

Michał

High Elder
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
821
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
33
Location
Mazovia, Poland
elijahmaria said:
Don't be too prickly...Christ is Risen!!
Indeed -- He is! But I'd like to get the answer to my question (i.e., do the RCs in Greece say no Filioque) anyway. ;)

elijahmaria said:
He is right about the filioque.  In Greek it is a heresy because in Greek the word used to indicate procession inherently means source as in originate source or cause.  In Latin "procede" does not have the singular and absolute meaning of originate cause and so the Filioque does not indicate that the Son is the originate cause...
Greek is such a rich language. I'm sure there is a way to express the Vatican's doctrine in it in a manner that will make it a heresy only for Orthodox and not for Catholics.
 

elijahmaria

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
6,515
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
irenikontheskete.blogspot.com
Michał said:
elijahmaria said:
Don't be too prickly...Christ is Risen!!
Indeed -- He is! But I'd like to get the answer to my question (i.e., do the RCs in Greece say no Filioque) anyway. ;)

elijahmaria said:
He is right about the filioque.  In Greek it is a heresy because in Greek the word used to indicate procession inherently means source as in originate source or cause.  In Latin "procede" does not have the singular and absolute meaning of originate cause and so the Filioque does not indicate that the Son is the originate cause...
Greek is such a rich language. I'm sure there is a way to express the Vatican's doctrine in it in a manner that will make it a heresy only for Orthodox and not for Catholics.
I learned what I have told you from Orthodox sources, first, and Catholic sources later, so now I do not know how to respond to you.

You will have to look well past me for an answer then...I fear... :)
 

PJ

Taxiarches
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
6,494
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
New England
Hi Michał. For the moment let me just give you short answers.

Michał said:
Peter J said:
. . . for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop.
You mean, possible for whom? A priest? A layperson?
Well, you can't have a mass without a priest (not even the OF ;))

Michał said:
Peter J said:
The reason this is significant . . . is that saying the creed in Greek means saying it according to the text of 381 . . .
Are you saying that the Roman Catholics in Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Greece) say the Creed without the Filioque? Do you have any proof for that?
Yes, I am; no I don't have proof, at least at the moment. I believe I could come up with some, when I have a little more time.

Michał said:
Peter J said:
. . . there's no filioque-issue as there is in other languages.
So what? ??? (Assuming that you are right.)
So what? Oh, I just wanted to make sure everyone was aware of this ... and apparently not everyone was.
 

Michał

High Elder
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
821
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
33
Location
Mazovia, Poland
Peter J said:
Yes, I am; no I don't have proof, at least at the moment. I believe I could come up with some, when I have a little more time.
I will be grateful for that.
 

elijahmaria

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
6,515
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
irenikontheskete.blogspot.com
Michał said:
Peter J said:
Yes, I am; no I don't have proof, at least at the moment. I believe I could come up with some, when I have a little more time.
I will be grateful for that.
Just checked with a Greek Orthodox friend who corroborated that Latin rite Catholics in Greece do not recite the Creed in Greek with the filioque.  That change was made post-Vatican II with the change from the mass in Latin to the mass in Greek.

You will probably want to check with your own Greek friends  :D
 

Michał

High Elder
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
821
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
33
Location
Mazovia, Poland
elijahmaria said:
You will probably want to check with your own Greek friends   :D
Checked on another board (http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/335140 -- the 10/16/09 12:12 AM message by DTBrown). You and Peter J are right. Sorry for my skepticism -- the whole theory sounded a little bit fantastically for me.
 

elijahmaria

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
6,515
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
irenikontheskete.blogspot.com
Michał said:
elijahmaria said:
You will probably want to check with your own Greek friends   :D
Checked on another board (http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/335140 -- the 10/16/09 12:12 AM message by DTBrown). You and Peter J are right. Sorry for my skepticism -- the whole theory sounded a little bit fantastically for me.
Not fantastic...quite real.  The Creed in Greek emphasize the fact that the divinity originates from Father, while the Creed in Latin emphasizes the relationships between the hypostases.  Not a different faith, just a different way of expressing the same faith.

 

ialmisry

Strategos
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
41,795
Reaction score
2
Points
36
Location
Chicago
elijahmaria said:
Michał said:
elijahmaria said:
You will probably want to check with your own Greek friends   :D
Checked on another board (http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/335140 -- the 10/16/09 12:12 AM message by DTBrown). You and Peter J are right. Sorry for my skepticism -- the whole theory sounded a little bit fantastically for me.
Not fantastic...quite real.   The Creed in Greek emphasize the fact that the divinity originates from Father, while the Creed in Latin emphasizes the relationships between the hypostases.
  No, it doesn't.

elijahmaria said:
Not a different faith, just a different way of expressing the same faith.
Quite different.
 

elijahmaria

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
6,515
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
irenikontheskete.blogspot.com
ialmisry said:
elijahmaria said:
Michał said:
elijahmaria said:
You will probably want to check with your own Greek friends   :D
Checked on another board (http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/335140 -- the 10/16/09 12:12 AM message by DTBrown). You and Peter J are right. Sorry for my skepticism -- the whole theory sounded a little bit fantastically for me.
Not fantastic...quite real.   The Creed in Greek emphasize the fact that the divinity originates from Father, while the Creed in Latin emphasizes the relationships between the hypostases.
  No, it doesn't.

elijahmaria said:
Not a different faith, just a different way of expressing the same faith.
Quite different.
:D :D :D

Not at all

Christ is Risen!!
 

PJ

Taxiarches
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
6,494
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
New England
I thought I remembered seeing it in The Greek and Latin traditions about the procession of the Holy Spirit, also known as the Vatican's Clarification on the Filioque, but I didn't have the time to look for it earlier. Anyhow, here it is:

Even for St Cyril, the term ekporeusis as distinct from the term "proceed" (proienai), can only characterise a relationship of origin to the principle without principle of the Trinity: the Father.

That is why the Orthodox Orient has always refused the formula to ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon and the Catholic Church has refused the addition kai tou Uiou to the formula ek tou Patros ekporeuomenon in the Greek text of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Symbol, even in its liturgical use by Latins.
See also http://www.agrino.org/cyberdesert/zizioulas.htm#liturgy

 

PJ

Taxiarches
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
6,494
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
New England
Michał said:
elijahmaria said:
You will probably want to check with your own Greek friends   :D
Checked on another board (http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/335140 -- the 10/16/09 12:12 AM message by DTBrown). You and Peter J are right. Sorry for my skepticism -- the whole theory sounded a little bit fantastically for me.
I think, if memory serves, that I first learned of it from byzcath as well.
 

PJ

Taxiarches
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
6,494
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
New England
Michał said:
Peter J said:
. . . for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop.
You mean, possible for whom? A priest? A layperson?
As explained to me by (I think) either lubeltri or Chris (Papist), Latin Catholic priests can celebrate the mass in either Latin or the vernacular language. They need the bishop's permission if they want to celebrate a mass in any other language.
 

PJ

Taxiarches
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
6,494
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
New England
ialmisry said:
Peter J said:
This is of course a complicated issue. I have a couple a little points I'd like to add ...

As already mentioned (but I think it's worth repeating) the OF permits (without requiring) certain things not permitted in the EF. For example, can be said versus populi, but it does not have to be.

Also, some things in the OF depend on which language it is being celebrated in. (The EF can only be celebrated in Latin.) For English we have the much-objected-to phrase “for all”, but in Latin it remains “pro multis”. (In French it's “pour la multitude.”)

This brings me to another little point that's seldom mentioned: for the OF it is actually possible to say the creed in Greek – I believe it just requires the permission of one's bishop. The reason this is significant (if it isn't already obvious) is that saying the creed in Greek means saying it according to the text of 381; there's no filioque-issue as there is in other languages.
What do you mean by that?

In Latin Romanian, the Orthodox say "Care din Tatăl purcede" which the "Romanian Greek Catholic Church United with Rome" corrupts to "Care de la Tatăl şi de la Fiul purcede."
Yes, that's a good illustration of my point.

 
Top