Patriarch Ilia II calls for ban on "gay rights march" "Gay-Rights Rally"

Kerdy

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Michał Kalina said:
Kerdy said:
Michał Kalina said:
Kerdy said:
Michał Kalina said:
ativan said:
Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?
Those who try to rip them to shreds with bare hands propably.
You know, sarcasm without appropriate, well thought out, intelligent responses is starting to lean me in the direction of “it may not have been as bad as you pretend”.  Keep up the good work.
Have you watched the videos?
Better than you have read my posts.

Or do you mean the one with a bunch of priests running from the violence?
IMO they were running to the buses.
Your opinion.  Have you even watched the videos?

Perhaps now you better understand what I have been saying in my posts about not having all the information.
 

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Kerdy said:
So, he attacked the protesters you say are bad and he is vilified.  I am confused.  Should he not be honored?
No, unnecessary violent attacks should not be honoured even when they're perpetrated by the people on the right side of an argument.

You didn’t, just making a comparison to show the hypocrisy.
Whose hypocrisy?
 

Kerdy

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Orthodox11 said:
Kerdy said:
What’s humorous is how an old man with a chair is compared to up-armored assault vehicles, tanks, men with body armor and military weapons and attack helicopters.  It’s overboard absurdity.
There's a video of that old man using that chair to smash the windscreen of a bus carrying protesters. Of course it's overboard, that's the point.
I can't seem to find this video.  I saw a lot of smashing of windshields, but I didn't see him doing it.
 

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Kerdy said:
Michał Kalina said:
Kerdy said:
Michał Kalina said:
Kerdy said:
Michał Kalina said:
ativan said:
Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?
Those who try to rip them to shreds with bare hands propably.
You know, sarcasm without appropriate, well thought out, intelligent responses is starting to lean me in the direction of “it may not have been as bad as you pretend”.  Keep up the good work.
Have you watched the videos?
Better than you have read my posts.

Or do you mean the one with a bunch of priests running from the violence?
IMO they were running to the buses.
Your opinion.  Have you even watched the videos?

Perhaps now you better understand what I have been saying in my posts about not having all the information.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7uC7VYF0NBI

Breaking the police lines and leading the charge.
 

Kerdy

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Orthodox11 said:
No, unnecessary violent attacks should not be honoured even when they're perpetrated by the people on the right side of an argument.
I can respect your consistancy. 

Orthodox11 said:
Whose hypocrisy?
Everyones.
 

Kerdy

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Michał Kalina said:
Kerdy said:
Michał Kalina said:
Kerdy said:
Michał Kalina said:
Kerdy said:
Michał Kalina said:
ativan said:
Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?
Those who try to rip them to shreds with bare hands propably.
You know, sarcasm without appropriate, well thought out, intelligent responses is starting to lean me in the direction of “it may not have been as bad as you pretend”.  Keep up the good work.
Have you watched the videos?
Better than you have read my posts.

Or do you mean the one with a bunch of priests running from the violence?
IMO they were running to the buses.
Your opinion.  Have you even watched the videos?

Perhaps now you better understand what I have been saying in my posts about not having all the information.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7uC7VYF0NBI

Breaking the police lines and leading the charge.
Ok, still not seeing it.  I see a lot of people trying to get away from the violence.  Can you provide the specific second on the video?
 

Orthodox11

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In this speech, Archbishop Jakob asks the policemen for forgiveness for breaking through their lines.

I actually agree with nearly everything he says. It's the use of violence that I have a problem with. A peaceful counter-protest was perfectly possible, especially when the number of nationalist counter-protesters dwarfed the tiny number of anti-homophobia protesters.
 

Kerdy

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Orthodox11 said:
Kerdy said:
I can't seem to find this video.  I saw a lot of smashing of windshields, but I didn't see him doing it.
Here's one.
Ah-ha!  A video which appears to actually show something.  Thank you!  But I must confess...an old man barely swinging a chair at a hardened object which did not strike any person, and bounced off, hardly seems the threat he is being made out to be.  Had he whacked someone in the dome with it, now that would be different.  

Additionally, who was the person behind him to ran off with the chair?  Were they together?  The old fella was so much of a threat with his hulk like swing he didn’t even realize the chair was no longer in his grasp.  Understand, I am not debating the right or wrong of what he did, just the over the top vilification of the man.  It seems more like the shoe throwing type of thing done to Pres. Bush a few years ago.
I would like to see all of the video before I make a final decision, not just the media highlights.  I somehow doubt the parade folks showed up in a van and were immediately attacked.  It could have happened, but it seems unlikely.  And if they were, why?  Anyone have more video?
 

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Michał Kalina said:
Police is blocking them from attacking buses. They are breaking the blockade.
Yep, that is what I am seeing. ::)  I especially like the priest who gets out with the expression of relief only to walk to the side of the road.  He sure seemed like he was hell bent on hurting someone to me.
 

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Orthodox11 said:
In this speech, Archbishop Jakob asks the policemen for forgiveness for breaking through their lines.

I actually agree with nearly everything he says. It's the use of violence that I have a problem with. A peaceful counter-protest was perfectly possible, especially ...
A respectful position.  I do not find myself in disagreement.
 

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Kerdy said:
Orthodox11 said:
In this speech, Archbishop Jakob asks the policemen for forgiveness for breaking through their lines.

I actually agree with nearly everything he says. It's the use of violence that I have a problem with. A peaceful counter-protest was perfectly possible, especially ...
A respectful position.  I do not find myself in disagreement.
You say they did not break the lines or attack gays. He apologizes for breaking the lines. You say you agree with him.

Am I the only one who fails to see any logic?
 

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Michał Kalina said:
Kerdy said:
Orthodox11 said:
In this speech, Archbishop Jakob asks the policemen for forgiveness for breaking through their lines.

I actually agree with nearly everything he says. It's the use of violence that I have a problem with. A peaceful counter-protest was perfectly possible, especially ...
A respectful position.  I do not find myself in disagreement.
You say they did not break the lines or attack gays. He apologizes for breaking the lines. You say you agree with him.

Am I the only one who fails to see any logic?
No, you're not.
 

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Kerdy said:
Michał Kalina said:
Police is blocking them from attacking buses. They are breaking the blockade.
Yep, that is what I am seeing. ::)  I especially like the priest who gets out with the expression of relief only to walk to the side of the road.  He sure seemed like he was hell bent on hurting someone to me.
You have an uncanny ability to selectively see/read/hear whatever you think will strengthen your position, while filtering out anything that does not.
 

Kerdy

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Michał Kalina said:
Kerdy said:
Orthodox11 said:
In this speech, Archbishop Jakob asks the policemen for forgiveness for breaking through their lines.

I actually agree with nearly everything he says. It's the use of violence that I have a problem with. A peaceful counter-protest was perfectly possible, especially ...
A respectful position.  I do not find myself in disagreement.
You say they did not break the lines or attack gays. He apologizes for breaking the lines. You say you agree with him.

Am I the only one who fails to see any logic?
Your logic has several failures.  I never said the homosexuals were not attacked.  I also did not say anyone didn't brake police lines, only the video does not appear to show what you present, resulting in my additional comments about more video.  This proves you are not reading my posts.  
 

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stavros_388 said:
Kerdy said:
Michał Kalina said:
Police is blocking them from attacking buses. They are breaking the blockade.
Yep, that is what I am seeing. ::)  I especially like the priest who gets out with the expression of relief only to walk to the side of the road.  He sure seemed like he was hell bent on hurting someone to me.
You have an uncanny ability to selectively see/read/hear whatever you think will strengthen your position, while filtering out anything that does not.
Like the videos themselves?  They are no different than showing only the few seconds where police shoot a suspect and ignore everything which leads up to that point.
 

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Orthodox11 said:
ativan said:
There's a lot of misrepresentation of Orthodoxy going on today. Christian first of all is supposed to be a solider of Christ.
Sure, but being a soldier of Christ means entering into spiritual warfare against the devil and the passions. It does not mean using physical violence, especially when there's absolutely no need for it. The sword of the Christian is the Jesus Prayer, as the prayers for tonsuring a monk makes very clear.
Amen!
 

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It’s ok.  You can turn an old man who can hardly swing a chair into the criminal of the decade and ignore the public, blatant, “in your face” actions of the homosexuals who want to parade around and make fools of themselves.  It’s ok.  It’s what people do these days.  Cry for the evils of the world and spit at those who want better.  I really enjoy how people focus on actions of those who want no parade and ignore everything else.  A rational thinker would hope you would call out the wrongs on both sides, but perhaps that is asking too much from Christians these days.  I don’t know.  I am looking forward to the prostitutes pride parade where they hand out discount coupons.  Who thinks that is a good idea?  How about Drug Dealer Pride Parades?  Spouse abuser pride day anyone?  And you wonder why people feel the need to go as far as they do in protest.
 

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Michał Kalina said:
Not "one man" but 30k.
I realize you have absolutely no idea why I am saying this, but thank you.
 

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Michał Kalina said:
Kerdy said:
Michał Kalina said:
Not "one man" but 30k.
I realize you have absolutely no idea why I am saying this, but thank you.
I have some ideas but cannot share them in Public Fora.
In that case, they are all incorrect.  If any were correct, you could easily share in the Public Fora.  With that, I leave this thread and it's tunnel vision. 

May the Lord have mercy on us all.
 

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ativan said:
Incarnated Son of God Himself cleansed the Temple of money changers.
He didn't incite a violent mob, he stirred up the animals and chased people around.

When an angry mob wanted to persecute a sexual sinner, he stopped them. Or do you not remember?

ativan said:
God the Father Himself destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. I don't think any of us loves human being more then Creator Himself does.
"Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

"...the people did not receive him, because his face was set toward Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw it, they said, 'Lord, do you want us to tell fire to come down from heaven and consume them?' But he turned and rebuked them."

ativan said:
Believe or not he also said: don't turn your the other chick and fight against those who slap you on one side.
Who cares?

ativan said:
Saint king of Georgia David the builder cleansed the Church of gay priests and likes and he was very cruel against them. He did it in the name of Christ. We can't even come closer to his sainthood.
"Saint' doesn't mean "morally right". We've been over this.

ativan said:
There's a lot of misrepresentation of Orthodoxy going on today. Christian first of all is supposed to be a solider of Christ.
I think you are confused about what that means. Perhaps being the soldier of one of your land's old gods would be more fitting:


One can have all the blood one wants.
 

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Sexual acts between people of the same sex is gravely sinful but nowhere in The New Testament is mob violence supported or condoned. Our Lord's actions and words in the Temple were considered and measured. No comparison can surely be made between the events in the Temple and Tbilisi?

While opposing the ever increasing demands of the Homosexual activist lobby, 'Queer bashing' is repellent. Trying to work out the sequence of events in Tbilisi even after watching lengthy videos of the sad events leaves me perplexed and disquieted. Understanding very little of the spoken language and none the written doesn't help.

Does anyone know what the hierarchy have said following these events?
 

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Kerdy said:
It’s ok.  You can turn an old man who can hardly swing a chair into the criminal of the decade and ignore the public, blatant, “in your face” actions of the homosexuals who want to parade around and make fools of themselves.  It’s ok.  It’s what people do these days.  Cry for the evils of the world and spit at those who want better.  I really enjoy how people focus on actions of those who want no parade and ignore everything else.  A rational thinker would hope you would call out the wrongs on both sides, but perhaps that is asking too much from Christians these days.  I don’t know.  I am looking forward to the prostitutes pride parade where they hand out discount coupons.  Who thinks that is a good idea?  How about Drug Dealer Pride Parades?  Spouse abuser pride day anyone?  And you wonder why people feel the need to go as far as they do in protest.
Yes, but shouldn't a priest be an example to his people?

Have you heard of the Maspero Massacre in Egypt?  26 Copts were killed by bullets and run over by army vehicles in Maspero district of Cairo.  Copts started getting angry and would fight back and try to hurt any soldier involved.  One soldier (Muslim) asked protection from a Coptic priest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvUUBg4Xmho

Don't you think that a Coptic priest seeing the mangled and severed bodies around him would be justified to pick up a chair and throw at his tank?

So I ask you, what would you do to a parade of "Drug Dealer Pride" people or "Spousal Abusers"?  Would you pick up a chair and break their cars?

Shame on the Georgian priest!  Shame!
 

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minasoliman said:
Kerdy said:
It’s ok.  You can turn an old man who can hardly swing a chair into the criminal of the decade and ignore the public, blatant, “in your face” actions of the homosexuals who want to parade around and make fools of themselves.  It’s ok.  It’s what people do these days.  Cry for the evils of the world and spit at those who want better.  I really enjoy how people focus on actions of those who want no parade and ignore everything else.  A rational thinker would hope you would call out the wrongs on both sides, but perhaps that is asking too much from Christians these days.  I don’t know.  I am looking forward to the prostitutes pride parade where they hand out discount coupons.  Who thinks that is a good idea?  How about Drug Dealer Pride Parades?  Spouse abuser pride day anyone?  And you wonder why people feel the need to go as far as they do in protest.
Yes, but shouldn't a priest be an example to his people?

Have you heard of the Maspero Massacre in Egypt?  26 Copts were killed by bullets and run over by army vehicles in Maspero district of Cairo.  Copts started getting angry and would fight back and try to hurt any soldier involved.  One soldier (Muslim) asked protection from a Coptic priest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvUUBg4Xmho

Don't you think that a Coptic priest seeing the mangled and severed bodies around him would be justified to pick up a chair and throw at his tank?

So I ask you, what would you do to a parade of "Drug Dealer Pride" people or "Spousal Abusers"?  Would you pick up a chair and break their cars?

Shame on the Georgian priest!  Shame!
Yes, but remember: He is only a human being. Good or bad choice made.
We should pray for that priest and every priest on this very planet.
 

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Tommelomsky said:
minasoliman said:
Kerdy said:
It’s ok.  You can turn an old man who can hardly swing a chair into the criminal of the decade and ignore the public, blatant, “in your face” actions of the homosexuals who want to parade around and make fools of themselves.  It’s ok.  It’s what people do these days.  Cry for the evils of the world and spit at those who want better.  I really enjoy how people focus on actions of those who want no parade and ignore everything else.  A rational thinker would hope you would call out the wrongs on both sides, but perhaps that is asking too much from Christians these days.  I don’t know.  I am looking forward to the prostitutes pride parade where they hand out discount coupons.  Who thinks that is a good idea?  How about Drug Dealer Pride Parades?  Spouse abuser pride day anyone?  And you wonder why people feel the need to go as far as they do in protest.
Yes, but shouldn't a priest be an example to his people?

Have you heard of the Maspero Massacre in Egypt?  26 Copts were killed by bullets and run over by army vehicles in Maspero district of Cairo.  Copts started getting angry and would fight back and try to hurt any soldier involved.  One soldier (Muslim) asked protection from a Coptic priest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvUUBg4Xmho

Don't you think that a Coptic priest seeing the mangled and severed bodies around him would be justified to pick up a chair and throw at his tank?

So I ask you, what would you do to a parade of "Drug Dealer Pride" people or "Spousal Abusers"?  Would you pick up a chair and break their cars?

Shame on the Georgian priest!  Shame!
Yes, but remember: He is only a human being. Good or bad choice made.
We should pray for that priest and every priest on this very planet.
Orthodox11 said:
minasoliman said:
Shame on the Georgian priest!  Shame!
We don't know if he's a priest. He's wearing monastic attire.
If he's a priest, he should be held to a higher standard.  Deposition or excommunication does not mean we won't pray for him.

Do we not remember St. James:  "Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." (3:1)

And a monk who's dead to the world, why join the world in violence?
 

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If he was-is a priest, he should indeed have a higher standard. But the way our world has become today, even this..the unthinkable could (and perhaps has) happened.

It is in these times the prayers are so needed. Violence solves nothing (never has and never will).
 

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Has the Patriarch issued any statement condemning the violence at the rally?
 

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Tommelomsky said:
If he was-is a priest, he should indeed have a higher standard. But the way our world has become today, even this..the unthinkable could (and perhaps has) happened.

It is in these times the prayers are so needed. Violence solves nothing (never has and never will).
I'm not saying beat up the priest.  That would be hypocritical.

Yes, the world has and always has been a perverted and violent place to live.  But if a priest in a country where he is the minority can protect and love persecutors from the violence of those persecuted, how much more a priest or a monk in a country where he is part of the majority to protect and love the perverted sinners!

Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword.
 

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We must understand the culture and politics of Georgia before saying anything. Georgians are pious Orthodox Christians who seriously want to preserve traditional religious ethics in their society with the Church as the center of society. His Holiness is well loved by the faithful including many politicians and he often counsels Georgia acting as spiritual guardian, this is his duty, Eis Polla Eti Despota! Many years to the faithful Georgians who are pushing those who seek to harm the traditional society out of Georgia. Gay-pride parades do not belong in the streets of a religious Orthodox country such as Georgia. Both Homosexuality and Pride are terrible sins and a celebration/parade in honor of such monstrosity would be opposite of Orthodox teachings. The physical fighting between the Orthodox and the Gay-pride supporters was bad and the priest was not supposed to be using a chair as a weapon but the counter-protest was good.  
 

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Cantor Krishnich said:
We must understand the culture and politics of Georgia before saying anything. Georgians are pious Orthodox Christians who seriously want to preserve traditional religious ethics in their society with the Church as the center of society. His Holiness is well loved by the faithful including many politicians and he often counsels Georgia acting as spiritual guardian, this is his duty, Eis Polla Eti Despota! Many years to the faithful Georgians who are pushing those who seek to harm the traditional society out of Georgia. Gay-pride parades do not belong in the streets of a religious Orthodox country such as Georgia. Both Homosexuality and Pride are terrible sins and a celebration/parade in honor of such monstrosity would be opposite of Orthodox teachings. The physical fighting between the Orthodox and the Gay-pride supporters was bad and the priest was not supposed to be using a chair as a weapon but the counter-protest was good. 
The idea of the counter-protest is good.  The violence however marred it, and made the protesters look good.  Therefore, I don't see anything good out of it.

It's understandable that Georgians have great love for their country to keep it sanctified, but where is the peace that comes with holiness?
 

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minasoliman said:
Cantor Krishnich said:
We must understand the culture and politics of Georgia before saying anything. Georgians are pious Orthodox Christians who seriously want to preserve traditional religious ethics in their society with the Church as the center of society. His Holiness is well loved by the faithful including many politicians and he often counsels Georgia acting as spiritual guardian, this is his duty, Eis Polla Eti Despota! Many years to the faithful Georgians who are pushing those who seek to harm the traditional society out of Georgia. Gay-pride parades do not belong in the streets of a religious Orthodox country such as Georgia. Both Homosexuality and Pride are terrible sins and a celebration/parade in honor of such monstrosity would be opposite of Orthodox teachings. The physical fighting between the Orthodox and the Gay-pride supporters was bad and the priest was not supposed to be using a chair as a weapon but the counter-protest was good.   
The idea of the counter-protest is good.  The violence however marred it, and made the protesters look good.  Therefore, I don't see anything good out of it.

It's understandable that Georgians have great love for their country to keep it sanctified, but where is the peace that comes with holiness?
Well said, I agree-it's the violence that accompanied the counter-protest which is truly disgraceful and embarrassing for the Orthodox world, rather than the counter-protest itself. Hopefully more Georgian hierarchs will speak out against this and future violence. Maybe they would do well to reflect on the words of the 16th century Patriarch Metrophanes III of Constantinople regarding violence against Jews in Crete:

"Injustice ... regardless to whomever acted upon or performed against, is still injustice. The unjust person is never relieved of the responsibility of these acts under the pretext that the injustice is done against a heterodox and not to a believer. As our Lord Jesus Christ in the Gospels said do not oppress or accuse anyone falsely; do not make any distinction or give room to the believers to injure those of another belief."
 

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Orthodox11 said:
scamandrius said:
Good for you!  You know how to use photoshop!
I didn't make it, it's from Georgian media.
Next time include a web citation per oc.net rules of conduct so that you are not mistakenly blamed for its creation.
 

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Santagranddad said:
Sexual acts between people of the same sex is gravely sinful but nowhere in The New Testament is mob violence supported or condoned. Our Lord's actions and words in the Temple were considered and measured. No comparison can surely be made between the events in the Temple and Tbilisi?

While opposing the ever increasing demands of the Homosexual activist lobby, 'Queer bashing' is repellent. Trying to work out the sequence of events in Tbilisi even after watching lengthy videos of the sad events leaves me perplexed and disquieted. Understanding very little of the spoken language and none the written doesn't help.

Does anyone know what the hierarchy have said following these events?
Patriarch Ilia II comments:

http://www.pravmir.com/georgian-patriarch-calls-on-supporters-opponents-of-gay-movement-to-pray-for-each-other/
 

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Nice. He could have said this beforeinstead of calling for a straight parade or whatever it was.
 

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Michał Kalina said:
ativan said:
Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?
Those who try to rip them to shreds with bare hands propably.
I've supplied important information and asked some questions that need to be answered. Instead of answering you chose to  ridicule me. This is how you argue.
 
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