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Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine

Daniel2:47

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His Holiness Patriarch Kirill met with His Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew today at the Phanar in Istanbul to discuss various issues including the ongoing situation in Ukraine. Sources are stating that Pat. Bartholomew notified Pat. Kirill that he was going to press ahead with the granting of autocephaly to resolve the ongoing difficulties in Ukraine, where alongside the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate), there are two other Orthodox groups also claiming the territory: the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kievan Patriarchate) and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church.

Before the departure for Moscow from the Istanbul airport, Patriarch Kirill answered questions from journalists.

According to His Holiness, for the past two years since the previous meeting of the two Primates, ‘much has happened in the life of our Church, and the whole situation in the world has greatly changed’.

Having described the dialogue that took place between them as ‘a talk between two brothers’, Patriarch Kirill stated that they discussed ‘all the problems on the agenda’.

‘I hope we will continue working together so that the world may become better’, he added.

‘Without coordination with His Holiness, I would not like to let you into details, although there was nothing secret, nothing that would make one’s conciseness explode’, Patriarch Kirill specified, ‘It was a very correct talk – a talk between the heads of two Churches who are aware of their responsibility of the state of Universal Orthodoxy and for the state of human souls in places and countries under our responsibility’.

Speaking about a continuation of pan-Orthodox dialogue, His Holiness underscored that ‘problems keep emerging, challenging Churches from the pastoral point of view. The world is changing rapidly, and no Church can make decisions that would run contrary to the position of another Orthodox Church’.

‘Therefore, we are simply programmed for interaction and cooperation, and since the world is rapidly changing, this cooperation, too, should be dynamic enough’, His Holiness concluded.
https://mospat.ru/en/2018/08/31/news163232/

 

Iconodule

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“Lots of stuff is happening and we talked about it.” Very informative.
 

Daniel2:47

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Ecumenical Patriarch informed the Russian Patriarch that the decision to award the Ukrainian Autocephalous Church has taken.

According to a statement by the metropolitan of France at orthodoxia.info, the Ecumenical Patriarch has clarified to the Russian delegation that the decision has been taken and that similar processes are already in progress.

"We do not want to create yet another schism but to unite the Church," said Metropolitan Emmanuel, who was questioned by orthodoxia.info about statements by Russian church officials about the creation of schism, replied that "the Ecumenical Patriarchate does not threaten anyone and is not threatened by anyone. "

So far there is no statement from the Russian side.
http://orthodoxia.info/news/%CE%BF-%CE%BA%CF%8D%CE%B2%CE%BF%CF%82-%CE%B5%CF%81%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%86%CE%B8%CE%B7-%CE%B7-%CE%BF%CF%85%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%AF%CE%B1-%CE%B1%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BA%CF%84%CE%AC-%CE%B1%CF%85%CF%84%CE%BF/
 

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Daniel2:47 said:
Ecumenical Patriarch informed the Russian Patriarch that the decision to award the Ukrainian Autocephalous Church has taken.

According to a statement by the metropolitan of France at orthodoxia.info, the Ecumenical Patriarch has clarified to the Russian delegation that the decision has been taken and that similar processes are already in progress.

"We do not want to create yet another schism but to unite the Church," said Metropolitan Emmanuel, who was questioned by orthodoxia.info about statements by Russian church officials about the creation of schism, replied that "the Ecumenical Patriarchate does not threaten anyone and is not threatened by anyone. "

So far there is no statement from the Russian side.
http://orthodoxia.info/news/%CE%BF-%CE%BA%CF%8D%CE%B2%CE%BF%CF%82-%CE%B5%CF%81%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%86%CE%B8%CE%B7-%CE%B7-%CE%BF%CF%85%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%AF%CE%B1-%CE%B1%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BA%CF%84%CE%AC-%CE%B1%CF%85%CF%84%CE%BF/
I'll believe it when I see it. In all the pictures I have seen of the meeting Patriarch Kirill was smiling ear to ear.
 

Iconodule

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At this point it's hard to imagine the EP backing down, unfortunately. I would be surprised if we don't have confirmation within the next day or two that there is now an autocephalous Ukrainian church. And to be honest I don't think that's a bad thing in itself. The status quo had to change some way or another. The problem is the way this autocephaly was implemented, and how it accords with the EP's growing self-importance.
 

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Iconodule said:
At this point it's hard to imagine the EP backing down, unfortunately. I would be surprised if we don't have confirmation within the next day or two that there is now an autocephalous Ukrainian church.
May it be so!
 

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I think the people I feel the worst for here are the Russians living in Ukraine now that the Banderists who call them "backfill" are going to all but enjoy official ecclesial recognition.

And for pretty much everybody who doesn't want the EP to make himself the Pope of Orthodoxy...
 

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Click the link to hear from Met Emmanuel of the EP regarding the meeting between the two Patriarchs...http://www.antenam.net/svijet/91690-kiril-dozivio-debakl-vartolomej-mu-u-lice-saopstio-dacu-tomos-ukrajini
 

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“I'll believe it when I see it. In all the pictures I have seen of the meeting Patriarch Kirill was smiling ear to ear.”

Is it possible that this is what Patriarch Kirill really wants?  While granting the tomos might feel like a win to the EP in the short term, making Patriarch Bartholomew and Constantinople still feel strong and relevant in the Orthodox world, if Moscow were to break communion with them and the majority of other jurisdictions take Patriarch Kirill’s side, that seems like a victory for the MP to me.  I imagine the UOC-MP will continue, the EP’s recognized Ukrainian Patriarchate will turn into another Estonia, and Constantinople will be further sidelined.

I don’t know.  Whatever the decision and subsequent reaction(s), I hope it happens fast.  Enough dithering, postponing, further study required, etc.  Announce the decision already and let’s get on with it.
 

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Of course the UOCMP will continue in Ukraine. 12% of the population supports it. There will be 2 Orthodox churches in Ukraine, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church which will receive its Tomos from the EP and the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine.
 

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I'm sure the Banderists will do everything they can to bully and coerce the UOC-MP into relinquishing parishes and monasteries to the new church.
 

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Iconodule said:
I'm sure the Banderists will do everything they can to bully and coerce the UOC-MP into relinquishing parishes and monasteries to the new church.
Not to turn this into a political discussion, but it seems Kiev is starting to get busy.
https://sputniknews.com/europe/201808311067645316-explosion-dpr-victim/

It’s hard to tell what’s going on right now, but all I know is that events seem to be emboldening Kiev.
 

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PJ26 said:
“I'll believe it when I see it. In all the pictures I have seen of the meeting Patriarch Kirill was smiling ear to ear.”

Is it possible that this is what Patriarch Kirill really wants?  While granting the tomos might feel like a win to the EP in the short term, making Patriarch Bartholomew and Constantinople still feel strong and relevant in the Orthodox world, if Moscow were to break communion with them and the majority of other jurisdictions take Patriarch Kirill’s side, that seems like a victory for the MP to me.  I imagine the UOC-MP will continue, the EP’s recognized Ukrainian Patriarchate will turn into another Estonia, and Constantinople will be further sidelined.

I don’t know.  Whatever the decision and subsequent reaction(s), I hope it happens fast.  Enough dithering, postponing, further study required, etc.  Announce the decision already and let’s get on with it.
" the EP’s recognized Ukrainian Patriarchate will turn into another Estonia"

Very different in that Estonia is a nation of 1.3 million people. Eastern Orthodoxy in Estonia is practiced by 12.8% of the population. As of a government report in 2004, about 20,000 believers (mostly ethnic Estonians) in 54 parishes are part of the autonomous EP church, while 150,000 faithful in 30 parishes, along with the monastic community of Pühtitsa, are with the MP.

Ukraine is a nation of 44 million people. Currently 41.4% identify with the UOCKP, 1.6% with the UAOC, and 17% with the Russian UOCMP. If we break that down that means 18,2100,000 KP adherants, 790,000 UAOC adherants, and  7,480,000 UOCMP adherants. Even if only 25% of the current adherants of the Moscow church leaves to join the UOC church granted the by the EP the Tomos (many people believe it may be up to half of its current membership in Ukraine) the UOC church would outnumber the UOCMP with almost 21 million members vs 5.6 million members of the Russian UOCMP.
 

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Kleofas said:
Iconodule said:
I'm sure the Banderists will do everything they can to bully and coerce the UOC-MP into relinquishing parishes and monasteries to the new church.
Not to turn this into a political discussion, but it seems Kiev is starting to get busy.
https://sputniknews.com/europe/201808311067645316-explosion-dpr-victim/

It’s hard to tell what’s going on right now, but all I know is that events seem to be emboldening Kiev.
Some background by the BBC on Alexander Zakharchenko  "A local field commander, Mr Zakharchenko became the "prime minister" of the self-styled "Donetsk People's Republic" (DPR) in early August after his predecessor, Russian citizen Alexander Borodai, announced he was stepping down.

On 28 August Mr Zakharchenko admitted that thousands of Russian citizens, including many professional soldiers, were fighting alongside the separatists.

He said 3-4,000 Russians had joined the rebel ranks during the fighting and some had been killed. "Moreover, many soldiers are coming to us from Russia who prefer to spend their holidays not on the beach but shoulder-to-shoulder with their brothers, fighting for the freedom of Donbass," he said.

His predecessor, Mr Borodai, had said "I am a Muscovite - Donbass should be led by a genuine Donetsk native". He said he would stay on as first deputy prime minister.

It was seen as an effort to prove that the insurgency in eastern Ukraine was rooted locally, not orchestrated by Moscow.

Alexander Zakharchenko was born in Donetsk in 1976 and after graduating from technical school worked as a mine electrician. Russian media say that later he was a student at the law institute of Ukraine's interior ministry and also tried his hand at being a businessman.

He was head of the Donetsk branch of the militant group Oplot ("Stronghold"). The organisation was active in helping the former Ukrainian government clamp down on the pro-democracy Maidan protests in Kiev at the beginning of the year.

In May, Mr Zakharchenko was appointed rebel military commander of Donetsk and later became DPR's "deputy interior minister". Reports say that right up to becoming "prime minister" he was fighting the Ukrainian army and was wounded in the arm in late July.      https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-27211501
 

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RaphaCam said:
I don't trust a Russian smile unless someone just told him a joke.
Just to be clear, I'm not raising suspicion on Patriarch Cyril here, it just seems to me Russians would more likely smile out of nervousness or irony than happiness. :p
 

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Iconodule said:
I'm sure the Banderists will do everything they can to bully and coerce the UOC-MP into relinquishing parishes and monasteries to the new church.
Yes. It'll be Macedonia all over again, but now with an "ecumenical" blessing.
 

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LizaSymonenko said:
Iconodule said:
At this point it's hard to imagine the EP backing down, unfortunately. I would be surprised if we don't have confirmation within the next day or two that there is now an autocephalous Ukrainian church.
May it be so!
What if they agreed that there should be an autocephalous church just not the kp or uaoc? Should people leave the KP and join an autocephalous church under Metropolitan Onuphry?
 

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Kleofas said:
Iconodule said:
I'm sure the Banderists will do everything they can to bully and coerce the UOC-MP into relinquishing parishes and monasteries to the new church.
Not to turn this into a political discussion, but it seems Kiev is starting to get busy.
https://sputniknews.com/europe/201808311067645316-explosion-dpr-victim/

It’s hard to tell what’s going on right now, but all I know is that events seem to be emboldening Kiev.
Eternal Memory!
 

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Metropolitan Hilarion on Ukrainian press' response to Istanbul meeting: Someone indulges in wishful thinking

Moscow, August 31, Interfax - The chief of the Synodal Department for External Church Relations, Metropolitan Hilarion, called for questioning Ukrainian media reports on the outcomes of a meeting between Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russia and Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew.

"Of course, some media outlets, especially in Ukraine, are very bewildered now. They have already begun publishing some information about this meeting. But I think that we will comment on the content of this meeting only if officials of the Constantinople Patriarchate begin commenting on the content of this meeting. There are only two of them, namely Patriarch Bartholomew and Metropolitan Emmanuel, who attended the meeting. And if someone else issues any commentaries, these are most likely just some conjectures," Metropolitan Hilarion told reporters upon return from Istanbul to Moscow on Friday evening.

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=14438


So.....
 

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Ah yes, the reliable Russian news....I'll believe news sources from the EP or Ukraine over Russian media anyday

http://orthodoxia.info/news/%CE%BF-%CE%BA%CF%8D%CE%B2%CE%BF%CF%82-%CE%B5%CF%81%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%86%CE%B8%CE%B7-%CE%B7-%CE%BF%CF%85%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%AF%CE%B1-%CE%B1%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BA%CF%84%CE%AC-%CE%B1%CF%85%CF%84%CE%BF/

https://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/orthodox_relations/72463/

http://www.ekathimerini.com/232188/article/ekathimerini/news/phanar-ecumenical-patriarchate-does-not-threaten-and-will-not-be-threatened-on-ukrainian-church

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/istanbuls-orthodox-church-retains-support-for-independent-ukrainian-church-136362

https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/528323.html


 

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cossack 316 said:
Ah yes, the reliable Russian news....I'll believe news sources from the EP or Ukraine over Russian media anyday

http://orthodoxia.info/news/%CE%BF-%CE%BA%CF%8D%CE%B2%CE%BF%CF%82-%CE%B5%CF%81%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%86%CE%B8%CE%B7-%CE%B7-%CE%BF%CF%85%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%AF%CE%B1-%CE%B1%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BA%CF%84%CE%AC-%CE%B1%CF%85%CF%84%CE%BF/

https://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/orthodox_relations/72463/

http://www.ekathimerini.com/232188/article/ekathimerini/news/phanar-ecumenical-patriarchate-does-not-threaten-and-will-not-be-threatened-on-ukrainian-church

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/istanbuls-orthodox-church-retains-support-for-independent-ukrainian-church-136362

https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/528323.html
And if the best the EP can offer you is to become an Archdiocese under it?
 

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ICXCNIKA said:
cossack 316 said:
Ah yes, the reliable Russian news....I'll believe news sources from the EP or Ukraine over Russian media anyday

http://orthodoxia.info/news/%CE%BF-%CE%BA%CF%8D%CE%B2%CE%BF%CF%82-%CE%B5%CF%81%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%86%CE%B8%CE%B7-%CE%B7-%CE%BF%CF%85%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%AF%CE%B1-%CE%B1%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BA%CF%84%CE%AC-%CE%B1%CF%85%CF%84%CE%BF/

https://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/orthodox_relations/72463/

http://www.ekathimerini.com/232188/article/ekathimerini/news/phanar-ecumenical-patriarchate-does-not-threaten-and-will-not-be-threatened-on-ukrainian-church

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/istanbuls-orthodox-church-retains-support-for-independent-ukrainian-church-136362

https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/528323.html
And if the best the EP can offer you is to become an Archdiocese under it?
Also according to his interview the Metropolitan only said the following:
"the Ecumenical Patriarchate took the decision of exploring all the ways to issue the autocephaly to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. This is the decision that was taken in April and we are implementing already this decision, and this was also reported to Patriarch Kirill during his visit today by the Ecumenical Patriarchate.” They asked the other churches their opinion and we know of none that said yes but many that said no.
 

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cossack 316 said:
Ah yes, the reliable Russian news....I'll believe news sources from the EP or Ukraine over Russian media anyday
I would love to see the Tomos on the EP website. I can't wait but until then I will assume it isn't coming.
 

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Cossacks enjoyed massacring Jews and striking workers on the Russian Czar’s behalf... what changed?
 

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Here is the article I saw this morning with Patriarch Kirill looking quite happy.

http://basilica.ro/en/patriarch-of-moscow-arrives-at-the-phanar/
 

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I can't recall a picture of Pat. Bartholomew smiling.
 

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ICXCNIKA said:
Here is the article I saw this morning with Patriarch Kirill looking quite happy.

http://basilica.ro/en/patriarch-of-moscow-arrives-at-the-phanar/
hecma925 said:
I can't recall a picture of Pat. Bartholomew smiling.
So much for stereotypes!
 

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Asteriktos said:
ICXCNIKA said:
Here is the article I saw this morning with Patriarch Kirill looking quite happy.

http://basilica.ro/en/patriarch-of-moscow-arrives-at-the-phanar/ 
hecma925 said:
I can't recall a picture of Pat. Bartholomew smiling.
So much for stereotypes!
I'm not adding or subtracting from this particular point, but I've encountered a number of Greek-tradition hierarchs who do not want to be photographed smiling in official photos (formal group shot, handing over awards, etc.).  It's not about "joy" per se, but more about the appearance of being aloof, as I understand it.

(I'm not aware, though, of any such prohibition applying to candid shots.)
 

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Fr. George said:
Asteriktos said:
ICXCNIKA said:
Here is the article I saw this morning with Patriarch Kirill looking quite happy.

http://basilica.ro/en/patriarch-of-moscow-arrives-at-the-phanar/ 
hecma925 said:
I can't recall a picture of Pat. Bartholomew smiling.
So much for stereotypes!
I'm not adding or subtracting from this particular point, but I've encountered a number of Greek-tradition hierarchs who do not want to be photographed smiling in official photos (formal group shot, handing over awards, etc.).  It's not about "joy" per se, but more about the appearance of being aloof, as I understand it.

(I'm not aware, though, of any such prohibition applying to candid shots.)
Out of curiosity is this related to the ancient belief that it was hubristic, or the related superstition that it was unlucky, to smile in photographs?
 

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ICXCNIKA said:
ICXCNIKA said:
cossack 316 said:
Ah yes, the reliable Russian news....I'll believe news sources from the EP or Ukraine over Russian media anyday

http://orthodoxia.info/news/%CE%BF-%CE%BA%CF%8D%CE%B2%CE%BF%CF%82-%CE%B5%CF%81%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%86%CE%B8%CE%B7-%CE%B7-%CE%BF%CF%85%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%AF%CE%B1-%CE%B1%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BA%CF%84%CE%AC-%CE%B1%CF%85%CF%84%CE%BF/

https://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/orthodox_relations/72463/

http://www.ekathimerini.com/232188/article/ekathimerini/news/phanar-ecumenical-patriarchate-does-not-threaten-and-will-not-be-threatened-on-ukrainian-church

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/istanbuls-orthodox-church-retains-support-for-independent-ukrainian-church-136362

https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/528323.html
And if the best the EP can offer you is to become an Archdiocese under it?
Also according to his interview the Metropolitan only said the following:
"the Ecumenical Patriarchate took the decision of exploring all the ways to issue the autocephaly to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. This is the decision that was taken in April and we are implementing already this decision, and this was also reported to Patriarch Kirill during his visit today by the Ecumenical Patriarchate.” They asked the other churches their opinion and we know of none that said yes but many that said no.
To translate: "I said I'm thinking about it once already, why don't you go play outside for a while"  ;D
 

ICXCNIKA

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Justin Kolodziej said:
ICXCNIKA said:
ICXCNIKA said:
cossack 316 said:
Ah yes, the reliable Russian news....I'll believe news sources from the EP or Ukraine over Russian media anyday

http://orthodoxia.info/news/%CE%BF-%CE%BA%CF%8D%CE%B2%CE%BF%CF%82-%CE%B5%CF%81%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%86%CE%B8%CE%B7-%CE%B7-%CE%BF%CF%85%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%AF%CE%B1-%CE%B1%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BA%CF%84%CE%AC-%CE%B1%CF%85%CF%84%CE%BF/

https://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/orthodox_relations/72463/

http://www.ekathimerini.com/232188/article/ekathimerini/news/phanar-ecumenical-patriarchate-does-not-threaten-and-will-not-be-threatened-on-ukrainian-church

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/istanbuls-orthodox-church-retains-support-for-independent-ukrainian-church-136362

https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/528323.html
And if the best the EP can offer you is to become an Archdiocese under it?
Also according to his interview the Metropolitan only said the following:
"the Ecumenical Patriarchate took the decision of exploring all the ways to issue the autocephaly to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. This is the decision that was taken in April and we are implementing already this decision, and this was also reported to Patriarch Kirill during his visit today by the Ecumenical Patriarchate.” They asked the other churches their opinion and we know of none that said yes but many that said no.
To translate: "I said I'm thinking about it once already, why don't you go play outside for a while"  ;D
My translation is "we decided to talk about doing something as of we had the power to do it even though we don't... so nothing will happen. Also, you must find our tiny corpse of a patriarchate quite quaint"
 

Iconodule

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According to Met Savas the weekend’s meeting was just to discuss the question and the actual decision will not be made/announced for another few weeks.
 

Apostolos

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ICXCNIKA said:
What if they agreed that there should be an autocephalous church just not the kp or uaoc? Should people leave the KP and join an autocephalous church under Metropolitan Onuphry?
That's exactly what's circulating in the news the last 48-24 hours here.
And that the EP will decide in October.
 

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I wonder if that would infuriate the Ukrainian nationalists even more than if the EP decided to back down.
 

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ICXCNIKA said:
What if they agreed that there should be an autocephalous church just not the kp or uaoc? Should people leave the KP and join an autocephalous church under Metropolitan Onuphry?
This sounds like the most unlikely scenario, but it would be the best of both worlds if the hierarchs all agreed to do this.
 

Justin Kolodziej

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RaphaCam said:
ICXCNIKA said:
What if they agreed that there should be an autocephalous church just not the kp or uaoc? Should people leave the KP and join an autocephalous church under Metropolitan Onuphry?
This sounds like the most unlikely scenario, but it would be the best of both worlds if the hierarchs all agreed to do this.
They should, but they won't because "it's still Metropolitan Onuphry and he's still a puppet of Moscow", which is essentially the whole raison d'etre of the schismatic self-styled Kiev non-Patriarchate.
 

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Well the real raison d’etre of the KP is that Pat. Filaret wasn’t picked to be Moscow patriarch.
 

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Moscow's "interventions" in Ukrainian church affairs "uncanonical" - Patriarch Bartholomew

Washington/Moscow, September 3, Interfax - Patriarch Bartholomew has insisted on the right by the Church of Constantinople to resolve the Ukrainian church problem without the Moscow Patriarchate.

"Since Russia, as the one responsible for the current painful situation in Ukraine, is unable to solve the problem, the Ecumenical Patriarchate assumed the initiative of resolving the problem in accordance with the authority afforded to it by the Sacred Canons and the jurisdictional responsibility over the eparchy of Kiev, receiving a request to this end by the honorable Ukrainian Government, as well as recurring requests by 'Patriarch' Philaret of Kiev appealing for our adjudication of his case," Patriarch Bartholomew said at the Church of Constantinople's Synaxis, held in Istanbul since last Saturday.

"The uncanonical interventions of Moscow from time to time in the affairs of Kiev and the toleration on the part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in previous years do not validate any ecclesiastical violation," the patriarch of Constantinople said.

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=14441
 
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