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Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine

Rohzek

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This sets a bad precedent insofar that it seems Constantinople can just willy nilly grant autocephaly to any sort of region of a preexisting patriarchate, but I'm struggling to care. It's not like Orthodoxy's organization can't get any more messed up lol
 

hecma925

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Ukraine will be an autonomous diocese of the OCA.
 

Tzimis

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Rohzek said:
This sets a bad precedent insofar that it seems Constantinople can just willy nilly grant autocephaly to any sort of region of a preexisting patriarchate, but I'm struggling to care. It's not like Orthodoxy's organization can't get any more messed up lol
Its the EP's jurisdiction from the time of antiquity.
 

Rohzek

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Tzimis said:
Rohzek said:
This sets a bad precedent insofar that it seems Constantinople can just willy nilly grant autocephaly to any sort of region of a preexisting patriarchate, but I'm struggling to care. It's not like Orthodoxy's organization can't get any more messed up lol
Its the EP's jurisdiction from the time of antiquity.
Doesn't really matter either way. The emperor is dead and the EP has like 4,000 members in Turkey. It's a relic.
 

ICXCNIKA

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Rohzek said:
Tzimis said:
Rohzek said:
This sets a bad precedent insofar that it seems Constantinople can just willy nilly grant autocephaly to any sort of region of a preexisting patriarchate, but I'm struggling to care. It's not like Orthodoxy's organization can't get any more messed up lol
Its the EP's jurisdiction from the time of antiquity.
Doesn't really matter either way. The emperor is dead and the EP has like 4,000 members in Turkey. It's a relic.
It should be stripped of autocephaly and joined to the CoG and the Archbishop of Athens should be raised to Patriarch.
 

Mor Ephrem

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ICXCNIKA said:
Rohzek said:
Tzimis said:
Rohzek said:
This sets a bad precedent insofar that it seems Constantinople can just willy nilly grant autocephaly to any sort of region of a preexisting patriarchate, but I'm struggling to care. It's not like Orthodoxy's organization can't get any more messed up lol
Its the EP's jurisdiction from the time of antiquity.
Doesn't really matter either way. The emperor is dead and the EP has like 4,000 members in Turkey. It's a relic.
It should be stripped of autocephaly and joined to the CoG and the Archbishop of Athens should be raised to Patriarch.
Not a bad idea.
 

Volnutt

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Mor Ephrem said:
ICXCNIKA said:
Rohzek said:
Tzimis said:
Rohzek said:
This sets a bad precedent insofar that it seems Constantinople can just willy nilly grant autocephaly to any sort of region of a preexisting patriarchate, but I'm struggling to care. It's not like Orthodoxy's organization can't get any more messed up lol
Its the EP's jurisdiction from the time of antiquity.
Doesn't really matter either way. The emperor is dead and the EP has like 4,000 members in Turkey. It's a relic.
It should be stripped of autocephaly and joined to the CoG and the Archbishop of Athens should be raised to Patriarch.
Not a bad idea.
You can't cut off one of the four remaining fingers of the universe! What is this, the Yakuza!? :p
 

PJ26

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The above article from Interfax has been updated and now additionally states:

“...The patriarch cast doubt on the canonicity of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church's subordination to the Moscow Patriarchate.

"Already from the early 14th century, when the see of the Kievan Metropolis was moved without the canonical permission of the Mother Church to Moscow, there have been tireless efforts on the part of our Kievan brothers for independence from ecclesiastical control by the Moscow center.

"Indeed, the obstinacy of the Patriarchate of Moscow was instrumental in occasionally creating repeated mergers and restorations of ecclesiastical eparchies, uncanonical elections of bishops as well as schisms, which still afflict the pious Ukrainian people.

"The Tome proclaiming Moscow as a Patriarchate does not include the region of today's Metropolis of Kiev in the jurisdiction of Moscow. Moreover, after the well-known manner of proclamation of Moscow as a Patriarchate by Ecumenical Patriarch Jeremiah II (Tranos), the canonical dependence of Kiev to the Mother Church of Constantinople remained constant and uninterrupted," Patriarch Bartholomew said.

The text of his speech was published on the website of the (Patriarchate of Constantinople's) Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA.

Moscow Patriarchate representatives have not yet commented on the patriarch's speech.”

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=14441
 

ICXCNIKA

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Volnutt said:
Mor Ephrem said:
ICXCNIKA said:
Rohzek said:
Tzimis said:
Rohzek said:
This sets a bad precedent insofar that it seems Constantinople can just willy nilly grant autocephaly to any sort of region of a preexisting patriarchate, but I'm struggling to care. It's not like Orthodoxy's organization can't get any more messed up lol
Its the EP's jurisdiction from the time of antiquity.
Doesn't really matter either way. The emperor is dead and the EP has like 4,000 members in Turkey. It's a relic.
It should be stripped of autocephaly and joined to the CoG and the Archbishop of Athens should be raised to Patriarch.
Not a bad idea.
You can't cut off one of the four remaining fingers of the universe! What is this, the Yakuza!? :p
Unfortunately, that is all you can do with a diseased finger that is now dead. better to prune it off than lose the whole hand.
 

IreneOlinyk

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PJ26 said:
The above article from Interfax has been updated and now additionally states:

“...The patriarch cast doubt on the canonicity of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church's subordination to the Moscow Patriarchate.

"Already from the early 14th century, when the see of the Kievan Metropolis was moved without the canonical permission of the Mother Church to Moscow, there have been tireless efforts on the part of our Kievan brothers for independence from ecclesiastical control by the Moscow center.

"Indeed, the obstinacy of the Patriarchate of Moscow was instrumental in occasionally creating repeated mergers and restorations of ecclesiastical eparchies, uncanonical elections of bishops as well as schisms, which still afflict the pious Ukrainian people.

"The Tome proclaiming Moscow as a Patriarchate does not include the region of today's Metropolis of Kiev in the jurisdiction of Moscow. Moreover, after the well-known manner of proclamation of Moscow as a Patriarchate by Ecumenical Patriarch Jeremiah II (Tranos), the canonical dependence of Kiev to the Mother Church of Constantinople remained constant and uninterrupted," Patriarch Bartholomew said.

The text of his speech was published on the website of the (Patriarchate of Constantinople's) Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA.

Moscow Patriarchate representatives have not yet commented on the patriarch's speech.”

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=14441
The Ecumenical Patriarchate has been consistent in stating that it never recognised the annexation of the Metropolitanate of Kyiv in 1686 by Moscow.  In the modern era this fact was clearly stated in the 1926 Tomos granting autocephaly to the Orthodox Church  of Poland.

This was stated in the tomos concerning autocephaly that the Mother-Church gave to the Polish church: our see did not recognize the separation of the Kiev metropolitanate and the Orthodox churches of Lithuania and Poland that were dependent upon it and their joining to the Moscow church, which was carried out contrary to the canons and the rights of the Kiev metropolitanate—which bore the title exarch of the Ecumenical See--were not observed," Patriarch Bartholomew said. 
https://www2.stetson.edu/~psteeves/relnews/180702a.html
Original Russian:
http://www.portal-credo.ru/site/?act=news&id=131528
 

ICXCNIKA

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IreneOlinyk said:
PJ26 said:
The above article from Interfax has been updated and now additionally states:

“...The patriarch cast doubt on the canonicity of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church's subordination to the Moscow Patriarchate.

"Already from the early 14th century, when the see of the Kievan Metropolis was moved without the canonical permission of the Mother Church to Moscow, there have been tireless efforts on the part of our Kievan brothers for independence from ecclesiastical control by the Moscow center.

"Indeed, the obstinacy of the Patriarchate of Moscow was instrumental in occasionally creating repeated mergers and restorations of ecclesiastical eparchies, uncanonical elections of bishops as well as schisms, which still afflict the pious Ukrainian people.

"The Tome proclaiming Moscow as a Patriarchate does not include the region of today's Metropolis of Kiev in the jurisdiction of Moscow. Moreover, after the well-known manner of proclamation of Moscow as a Patriarchate by Ecumenical Patriarch Jeremiah II (Tranos), the canonical dependence of Kiev to the Mother Church of Constantinople remained constant and uninterrupted," Patriarch Bartholomew said.

The text of his speech was published on the website of the (Patriarchate of Constantinople's) Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA.

Moscow Patriarchate representatives have not yet commented on the patriarch's speech.”

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=14441
The Ecumenical Patriarchate has been consistent in stating that it never recognised the annexation of the Metropolitanate of Kyiv in 1686 by Moscow.  In the modern era this fact was clearly stated in the 1926 Tomos granting autocephaly to the Orthodox Church  of Poland.

This was stated in the tomos concerning autocephaly that the Mother-Church gave to the Polish church: our see did not recognize the separation of the Kiev metropolitanate and the Orthodox churches of Lithuania and Poland that were dependent upon it and their joining to the Moscow church, which was carried out contrary to the canons and the rights of the Kiev metropolitanate—which bore the title exarch of the Ecumenical See--were not observed," Patriarch Bartholomew said. 
https://www2.stetson.edu/~psteeves/relnews/180702a.html
Original Russian:
http://www.portal-credo.ru/site/?act=news&id=131528
The very real problem with this revisionism is that it will expand the civil war in ukraine and more people will die with a religious fervor. The upside to all of this is we now know for a fact that there is a so called patriarchate trying to sow schism throughout the church due to it falling to a new heresy of first without equals. Seems like new rome is the same as old rome.
 

Volnutt

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ICXCNIKA said:
Volnutt said:
Mor Ephrem said:
ICXCNIKA said:
Rohzek said:
Tzimis said:
Rohzek said:
This sets a bad precedent insofar that it seems Constantinople can just willy nilly grant autocephaly to any sort of region of a preexisting patriarchate, but I'm struggling to care. It's not like Orthodoxy's organization can't get any more messed up lol
Its the EP's jurisdiction from the time of antiquity.
Doesn't really matter either way. The emperor is dead and the EP has like 4,000 members in Turkey. It's a relic.
It should be stripped of autocephaly and joined to the CoG and the Archbishop of Athens should be raised to Patriarch.
Not a bad idea.
You can't cut off one of the four remaining fingers of the universe! What is this, the Yakuza!? :p
Unfortunately, that is all you can do with a diseased finger that is now dead. better to prune it off than lose the whole hand.
I was joking. The sarcasm didn't come through the text, apparently. I was afraid that might happen.
 

Iconodule

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Coupling the ancient imperial pretensions of the Ecumenical Patriarchate with the modern American empire would be a recipe for ecclesial disaster. I think we need to just drop the whole idea altogether, as something based on a geopolitical situation that is long, long defunct. If it turns out we really need some "primus inter pares" to resolve disputes (and the EP doesn't seem to be doing a very good job of it currently) then let rotate between patriarchates after some fixed term.

Meanwhile the OO's seem to be doing fine without it.
 

ICXCNIKA

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Opus118 said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Not a bad idea.
Moving the Ecumenical Patriarchate to Washington D.C. is a better idea. This has been discussed previously.
How is moving a defunct See to another continent better? Better to just end it and stop living in the far distant past.
 

Ainnir

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I've moved the posts that were drifting into talk about civil war to a new thread in Politics.  --Ainnir
 

Alpha60

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RaphaCam said:
hecma925 said:
Ukraine will be an autonomous diocese of the OCA.
The Alpha60 solution would non-ironically be to bring some Ukrainian bishop under the EP (like those of the UOCUSA) to rule them all.
Not at all.  I am in favor of the EP and MP working together to de-escalate the situation and ideally work towards an outcome where the Metropolis of Kyiv remains a national church under the omophorion of the MP, with the KP persuaded, perhaps with some concessions, to join the church, and this process probably needs to be integrated with the peace process between Russia and Ukraine..  It needs to be a dialogue of love, forgiveness and respect.

I should also stress that I regret the EP having become involved here; I also regret the EP’s involvement in Estonia, both of which fueled disunity within Orthodoxy; I also resent the EP for not recognizing the autocephaly of the OCA, for not criticizing or denouncing outrageous statements made by various bishops on everything from homosexuality to the prerogatives of His All Holiness, for failing to resolve the Antioch-Jerusalem schism, for failing to achieve anything meaningful at Crete, and for threatening to “revoke” the autocephaly of the Czech-Slovak Church or indeed even claiming to wield such power.

Conversely, I laud the EP for being generally supportive of ecumenical dialogue, for doing a superb job with ACROD, and with the UOCNA and some other autonomous churches under their omophorion, and for tolerating the traditionalist St. Anthony’s Monastery in Florence.  Their record on Mount Athos however is a bit spotty; most of the traditionalist monasteries and sketes, particularly the Greek ones, have been well taken care of, but the interference in the operation of the Russian monastery and the blockades and police actions against the beleaguered Old Calendarists at Esphigmenou strike me as being actions not especially overflowing with Christian love.  The EP does do a good job with a number of other monasteries, including St. John of Patmos, where Metropolitan Kallistos Ware was formed, and I love His Eminence.

So all in all a mixed bag.

The MP is far from perfect, but in general I find the MP a bit more likeable due to their consistent liturgical traditionalism and the very good ecumenical relations led by Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, who is also a brilliant composer, and I love some of the autonomous churches under the MP, such as the Church of Japan and especially ROCOR. 

There are a number of excellent Orthodox Christians in both churches and the thought of any kind of schism ripping open between them over this issue breaks my heart.  The situation in the Ukraine is sad enough.

So if anyone wants to opine about what a generic Alpha60 solution is, the answer is simple: don’t do schisms, and if schisms happen, work to heal them with an attitude of extreme repentance, sorrow and superabundant love, on both sides.  The meeting of bishops to resolve disputes of this sort is not the place for anger, accusation or indignation.
 

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ICXCNIKA said:
IreneOlinyk said:
PJ26 said:
The above article from Interfax has been updated and now additionally states:

“...The patriarch cast doubt on the canonicity of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church's subordination to the Moscow Patriarchate.

"Already from the early 14th century, when the see of the Kievan Metropolis was moved without the canonical permission of the Mother Church to Moscow, there have been tireless efforts on the part of our Kievan brothers for independence from ecclesiastical control by the Moscow center.

"Indeed, the obstinacy of the Patriarchate of Moscow was instrumental in occasionally creating repeated mergers and restorations of ecclesiastical eparchies, uncanonical elections of bishops as well as schisms, which still afflict the pious Ukrainian people.

"The Tome proclaiming Moscow as a Patriarchate does not include the region of today's Metropolis of Kiev in the jurisdiction of Moscow. Moreover, after the well-known manner of proclamation of Moscow as a Patriarchate by Ecumenical Patriarch Jeremiah II (Tranos), the canonical dependence of Kiev to the Mother Church of Constantinople remained constant and uninterrupted," Patriarch Bartholomew said.

The text of his speech was published on the website of the (Patriarchate of Constantinople's) Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA.

Moscow Patriarchate representatives have not yet commented on the patriarch's speech.”

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=14441
The Ecumenical Patriarchate has been consistent in stating that it never recognised the annexation of the Metropolitanate of Kyiv in 1686 by Moscow.  In the modern era this fact was clearly stated in the 1926 Tomos granting autocephaly to the Orthodox Church  of Poland.

This was stated in the tomos concerning autocephaly that the Mother-Church gave to the Polish church: our see did not recognize the separation of the Kiev metropolitanate and the Orthodox churches of Lithuania and Poland that were dependent upon it and their joining to the Moscow church, which was carried out contrary to the canons and the rights of the Kiev metropolitanate—which bore the title exarch of the Ecumenical See--were not observed," Patriarch Bartholomew said. 
https://www2.stetson.edu/~psteeves/relnews/180702a.html
Original Russian:
http://www.portal-credo.ru/site/?act=news&id=131528
The very real problem with this revisionism is that it will expand the civil war in ukraine and more people will die with a religious fervor. The upside to all of this is we now know for a fact that there is a so called patriarchate trying to sow schism throughout the church due to it falling to a new heresy of first without equals. Seems like new rome is the same as old rome.
First and foremost, there is no Civil War in Ukraine, there is a Russian invasion with Russian groundtroops, weapons, and paid Russian mercenaries ..."but the latest estimate by US Lt Gen Ben Hodges, commander of the US Army in Europe, says 12,000 Russian troops are operating inside the neighbouring country." 2015 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31794523

"After four years of war, Russia has at least 260,000 troops deployed along the Ukrainian border, in addition to another 35,000 troops in the Donbas and 30,000 in Crimea, who could be used to conduct a large-scale continental war, the chairman of Ukraine’s National Defense and Security Council Oleksandr Turchynov said at the Kyiv Security Forum on April 13" https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/turchynov-260000-russian-troops-near-ukraine-ready-continental-war.html
 

ICXCNIKA

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cossack 316 said:
ICXCNIKA said:
IreneOlinyk said:
PJ26 said:
The above article from Interfax has been updated and now additionally states:

“...The patriarch cast doubt on the canonicity of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church's subordination to the Moscow Patriarchate.

"Already from the early 14th century, when the see of the Kievan Metropolis was moved without the canonical permission of the Mother Church to Moscow, there have been tireless efforts on the part of our Kievan brothers for independence from ecclesiastical control by the Moscow center.

"Indeed, the obstinacy of the Patriarchate of Moscow was instrumental in occasionally creating repeated mergers and restorations of ecclesiastical eparchies, uncanonical elections of bishops as well as schisms, which still afflict the pious Ukrainian people.

"The Tome proclaiming Moscow as a Patriarchate does not include the region of today's Metropolis of Kiev in the jurisdiction of Moscow. Moreover, after the well-known manner of proclamation of Moscow as a Patriarchate by Ecumenical Patriarch Jeremiah II (Tranos), the canonical dependence of Kiev to the Mother Church of Constantinople remained constant and uninterrupted," Patriarch Bartholomew said.

The text of his speech was published on the website of the (Patriarchate of Constantinople's) Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA.

Moscow Patriarchate representatives have not yet commented on the patriarch's speech.”

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=14441
The Ecumenical Patriarchate has been consistent in stating that it never recognised the annexation of the Metropolitanate of Kyiv in 1686 by Moscow.  In the modern era this fact was clearly stated in the 1926 Tomos granting autocephaly to the Orthodox Church  of Poland.

This was stated in the tomos concerning autocephaly that the Mother-Church gave to the Polish church: our see did not recognize the separation of the Kiev metropolitanate and the Orthodox churches of Lithuania and Poland that were dependent upon it and their joining to the Moscow church, which was carried out contrary to the canons and the rights of the Kiev metropolitanate—which bore the title exarch of the Ecumenical See--were not observed," Patriarch Bartholomew said. 
https://www2.stetson.edu/~psteeves/relnews/180702a.html
Original Russian:
http://www.portal-credo.ru/site/?act=news&id=131528
The very real problem with this revisionism is that it will expand the civil war in ukraine and more people will die with a religious fervor. The upside to all of this is we now know for a fact that there is a so called patriarchate trying to sow schism throughout the church due to it falling to a new heresy of first without equals. Seems like new rome is the same as old rome.
First and foremost, there is no Civil War in Ukraine, there is a Russian invasion with Russian groundtroops, weapons, and paid Russian mercenaries ..."but the latest estimate by US Lt Gen Ben Hodges, commander of the US Army in Europe, says 12,000 Russian troops are operating inside the neighbouring country." 2015 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31794523

"After four years of war, Russia has at least 260,000 troops deployed along the Ukrainian border, in addition to another 35,000 troops in the Donbas and 30,000 in Crimea, who could be used to conduct a large-scale continental war, the chairman of Ukraine’s National Defense and Security Council Oleksandr Turchynov said at the Kyiv Security Forum on April 13" https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/turchynov-260000-russian-troops-near-ukraine-ready-continental-war.html
I would respond to this nonsense but it has already been moved to politics so I can't.
 

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cossack 316 said:
ICXCNIKA said:
IreneOlinyk said:
PJ26 said:
The above article from Interfax has been updated and now additionally states:

“...The patriarch cast doubt on the canonicity of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church's subordination to the Moscow Patriarchate.

"Already from the early 14th century, when the see of the Kievan Metropolis was moved without the canonical permission of the Mother Church to Moscow, there have been tireless efforts on the part of our Kievan brothers for independence from ecclesiastical control by the Moscow center.

"Indeed, the obstinacy of the Patriarchate of Moscow was instrumental in occasionally creating repeated mergers and restorations of ecclesiastical eparchies, uncanonical elections of bishops as well as schisms, which still afflict the pious Ukrainian people.

"The Tome proclaiming Moscow as a Patriarchate does not include the region of today's Metropolis of Kiev in the jurisdiction of Moscow. Moreover, after the well-known manner of proclamation of Moscow as a Patriarchate by Ecumenical Patriarch Jeremiah II (Tranos), the canonical dependence of Kiev to the Mother Church of Constantinople remained constant and uninterrupted," Patriarch Bartholomew said.

The text of his speech was published on the website of the (Patriarchate of Constantinople's) Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA.

Moscow Patriarchate representatives have not yet commented on the patriarch's speech.”

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=14441
The Ecumenical Patriarchate has been consistent in stating that it never recognised the annexation of the Metropolitanate of Kyiv in 1686 by Moscow.  In the modern era this fact was clearly stated in the 1926 Tomos granting autocephaly to the Orthodox Church  of Poland.

This was stated in the tomos concerning autocephaly that the Mother-Church gave to the Polish church: our see did not recognize the separation of the Kiev metropolitanate and the Orthodox churches of Lithuania and Poland that were dependent upon it and their joining to the Moscow church, which was carried out contrary to the canons and the rights of the Kiev metropolitanate—which bore the title exarch of the Ecumenical See--were not observed," Patriarch Bartholomew said. 
https://www2.stetson.edu/~psteeves/relnews/180702a.html
Original Russian:
http://www.portal-credo.ru/site/?act=news&id=131528
The very real problem with this revisionism is that it will expand the civil war in ukraine and more people will die with a religious fervor. The upside to all of this is we now know for a fact that there is a so called patriarchate trying to sow schism throughout the church due to it falling to a new heresy of first without equals. Seems like new rome is the same as old rome.
First and foremost, there is no Civil War in Ukraine, there is a Russian invasion with Russian groundtroops, weapons, and paid Russian mercenaries ..."but the latest estimate by US Lt Gen Ben Hodges, commander of the US Army in Europe, says 12,000 Russian troops are operating inside the neighbouring country." 2015 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31794523

"After four years of war, Russia has at least 260,000 troops deployed along the Ukrainian border, in addition to another 35,000 troops in the Donbas and 30,000 in Crimea, who could be used to conduct a large-scale continental war, the chairman of Ukraine’s National Defense and Security Council Oleksandr Turchynov said at the Kyiv Security Forum on April 13" https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/turchynov-260000-russian-troops-near-ukraine-ready-continental-war.html
It's correct to say there's an invasion but incorrect to say there is no civil war. The Euromaidan and the invasion triggered civil war with Russian supported and Kiev supported sides, each closely linked to their respective governments.
 

Opus118

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Iconodule said:
Coupling the ancient imperial pretensions of the Ecumenical Patriarchate with the modern American empire would be a recipe for ecclesial disaster. I think we need to just drop the whole idea altogether, as something based on a geopolitical situation that is long, long defunct. If it turns out we really need some "primus inter pares" to resolve disputes (and the EP doesn't seem to be doing a very good job of it currently) then let rotate between patriarchates after some fixed term.

Meanwhile the OO's seem to be doing fine without it.
I happen to really like the Ecumenical Patriarch. Let's pick Los Angeles instead of Washington D.C. That is what LeBron James did. It is a good place for evangelization. All of the elements are there for his own weekly interview show. I can get into details, but it is off topic. There are also other possibilities like "Cooking and eating sensibly with the Green Patriarch".
 

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Opus118 said:
Iconodule said:
Coupling the ancient imperial pretensions of the Ecumenical Patriarchate with the modern American empire would be a recipe for ecclesial disaster. I think we need to just drop the whole idea altogether, as something based on a geopolitical situation that is long, long defunct. If it turns out we really need some "primus inter pares" to resolve disputes (and the EP doesn't seem to be doing a very good job of it currently) then let rotate between patriarchates after some fixed term.

Meanwhile the OO's seem to be doing fine without it.
I happen to really like the Ecumenical Patriarch. Let's pick Los Angeles instead of Washington D.C. That is what LeBron James did. It is a good place for evangelization. All of the elements are there for his own weekly interview show. I can get into details, but it is off topic. There are also other possibilities like "Cooking and eating sensibly with the Green Patriarch".
I think he would be happier living in the Vatican.
 

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ICXCNIKA said:
Opus118 said:
Iconodule said:
Coupling the ancient imperial pretensions of the Ecumenical Patriarchate with the modern American empire would be a recipe for ecclesial disaster. I think we need to just drop the whole idea altogether, as something based on a geopolitical situation that is long, long defunct. If it turns out we really need some "primus inter pares" to resolve disputes (and the EP doesn't seem to be doing a very good job of it currently) then let rotate between patriarchates after some fixed term.

Meanwhile the OO's seem to be doing fine without it.
I happen to really like the Ecumenical Patriarch. Let's pick Los Angeles instead of Washington D.C. That is what LeBron James did. It is a good place for evangelization. All of the elements are there for his own weekly interview show. I can get into details, but it is off topic. There are also other possibilities like "Cooking and eating sensibly with the Green Patriarch".
I think he would be happier living in the Vatican.
Dear ICXCNIKA,
I respond to your posts to give you another opinion. Based on your past posts I consider you a provocateur. Some one that challenges the border of decency and reality. My goal is to keep your posts out of politics. I dearly want them visible for all to see. I failed today, but I really do not understand why.
Do you have a thread that you have started that lists your grievances  against the EP?
My answer to your supposition is that you are wrong.
 

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Alpha60 said:
So if anyone wants to opine about what a generic Alpha60 solution is, the answer is simple: don’t do schisms, and if schisms happen, work to heal them with an attitude of extreme repentance, sorrow and superabundant love, on both sides.
I was just joking that a random Ukrainian clergyman under the EP would be a neutral option outside both MP and the schismatics to head a new, unified and canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and you usually think up very clever but rather fanciful solutions to problems. You're the Geoffrey Pyke of Orthodoxy and I love you for that.  :laugh:
 

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RaphaCam said:
Alpha60 said:
So if anyone wants to opine about what a generic Alpha60 solution is, the answer is simple: don’t do schisms, and if schisms happen, work to heal them with an attitude of extreme repentance, sorrow and superabundant love, on both sides.
I was just joking that a random Ukrainian clergyman under the EP would be a neutral option outside both MP and the schismatics to head a new, unified and canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and you usually think up very clever but rather fanciful solutions to problems. You're the Geoffrey Pyke of Orthodoxy and I love you for that.  :laugh:
Actually if you think about it, patriarch sergius did not have the blessing of patriarch st tikhon, it was infact the EP which gave canonicity to the soviet liviling church which is the predesesor of the modern russian church. Patriarch kiril even blessed a statue of patriarch sergios. What would have happened if the EP didnt recognize that living soviet church ? Likely the modern Russian Church would have been uncanonical, and lacking the healing power of God and look very differently.

That being said, the EP have te canonical right to unilaterally solve disputes when appealed to, and you dont even have to like it, it is a matter of authority.
 

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http://orthochristian.com/115524.html

Are the italicized comments, attributed to the EP, accurately translated?
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
http://orthochristian.com/115524.html

Are the italicized comments, attributed to the EP, accurately translated?
I sure hope not because it caused me to be violently ill. I don't know what religion the words are describing but it is not Christianity and especially not Orthodoxy.
 

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Opus118 said:
ICXCNIKA said:
Opus118 said:
Iconodule said:
Coupling the ancient imperial pretensions of the Ecumenical Patriarchate with the modern American empire would be a recipe for ecclesial disaster. I think we need to just drop the whole idea altogether, as something based on a geopolitical situation that is long, long defunct. If it turns out we really need some "primus inter pares" to resolve disputes (and the EP doesn't seem to be doing a very good job of it currently) then let rotate between patriarchates after some fixed term.

Meanwhile the OO's seem to be doing fine without it.
I happen to really like the Ecumenical Patriarch. Let's pick Los Angeles instead of Washington D.C. That is what LeBron James did. It is a good place for evangelization. All of the elements are there for his own weekly interview show. I can get into details, but it is off topic. There are also other possibilities like "Cooking and eating sensibly with the Green Patriarch".
I think he would be happier living in the Vatican.
Dear ICXCNIKA,
I respond to your posts to give you another opinion. Based on your past posts I consider you a provocateur. Some one that challenges the border of decency and reality. My goal is to keep your posts out of politics. I dearly want them visible for all to see. I failed today, but I really do not understand why.
Do you have a thread that you have started that lists your grievances  against the EP?
My answer to your supposition is that you are wrong.
Dear Opus,
Thank you for giving me another opinion. Please continue to do so.

I am honored and bemused that you think I am a provocateur yet you cannot see that it is Istanbul that challenges the border of decency and reality. I am sure should you do a search of my posts you will find any and all of my comments related to my issues with all kinds of evil, heresy, schism, heterodoxy et al. I really am an open book and if I may say so a damn good read.

Seriously though my apologies...while I disagree with what you may have said I should communicate that in such a way that is Christ-like. I have let my passions get the better of me and I ask your forgiveness. I am a work in progress.
 

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The Ecumenical Patriarch in his speech at the opening of the synod is just providing a truthful synopsis of history & his role as the leader of the Mother Church of Ukraine:


"Regardless of how some have tried to present the situation in Ukraine, history points to their mistakes and presents indisputable arguments testifying to the fact that the problems in Ukraine are not a recent phenomenon and are not the consequence of actions by the ecumenical patriarchate.

"Back in the early 14th century, when the Kiev see was moved without the canonical permission of the Mother-Church to Moscow, a tireless struggle has been waged by our Kiev brethren for independence from ecclesiastical control on the part of the Moscow center. Indeed, the stubbornness of the Moscow patriarchate has sometimes led to absorption and restoration of dioceses, the conduct of uncanonical elections of bishops, and also the emergence of schisms, from which the pious Ukrainian people have suffered as before.

"Among other things, a study of this question in the light of the sacred canons does not justify any interference on the part of the Russian church. The land of the current Kiev metropolitanate was not assigned to the jurisdiction of Moscow by the tomos that proclaimed Moscow as a patriarchate. Moreover, after the way, which is well known by everybody, by which Moscow was proclaimed a patriarchate on the part of Ecumenical Patriarch Jeremiah II, the canonical dependence of Kiev on the Constantinople Mother-Church has remained continual and uninterrupted.
 
https://www2.stetson.edu/~psteeves/relnews/180904b.html
 

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IreneOlinyk said:
The Ecumenical Patriarch in his speech at the opening of the synod is just providing a truthful synopsis of history & his role as the leader of the Mother Church of Ukraine:


"Regardless of how some have tried to present the situation in Ukraine, history points to their mistakes and presents indisputable arguments testifying to the fact that the problems in Ukraine are not a recent phenomenon and are not the consequence of actions by the ecumenical patriarchate.

"Back in the early 14th century, when the Kiev see was moved without the canonical permission of the Mother-Church to Moscow, a tireless struggle has been waged by our Kiev brethren for independence from ecclesiastical control on the part of the Moscow center. Indeed, the stubbornness of the Moscow patriarchate has sometimes led to absorption and restoration of dioceses, the conduct of uncanonical elections of bishops, and also the emergence of schisms, from which the pious Ukrainian people have suffered as before.

"Among other things, a study of this question in the light of the sacred canons does not justify any interference on the part of the Russian church. The land of the current Kiev metropolitanate was not assigned to the jurisdiction of Moscow by the tomos that proclaimed Moscow as a patriarchate. Moreover, after the way, which is well known by everybody, by which Moscow was proclaimed a patriarchate on the part of Ecumenical Patriarch Jeremiah II, the canonical dependence of Kiev on the Constantinople Mother-Church has remained continual and uninterrupted.
 
https://www2.stetson.edu/~psteeves/relnews/180904b.html
Perhaps he is right to point out these uncanonical actions. But at the end of the day, possession is nine-tenths of the law. We have never seen the Ecumenical Patriarchate tell Rome (especially in preschism), "Hey you're right, here's southern Italy and half of Greece back. What the emperor did was uncanonical." Centuries of pastoral practice is not without value, even when faced with the antiquated canons of a venerable empire and world long dead.
 

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"Back in the early 14th century, when the Kiev see was moved without the canonical permission of the Mother-Church to Moscow"

I'm going to repeat a question, which the Ukrainian nationalists here have failed to answer:

Do you know what Kiev was like in the early 14th century? Do you think it would be reasonable to require the Metropolitan of Kiev to remain in a city that had been razed to the ground and was now a devastated backwater subject to frequent Tatar raids and banditry? (And, by the way, the Metropolitan who made this move was St. Maximus, who was a Roman appointed by Constantinople.)

Irene, Cossack, Liza, what do you say?
 

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Iconodule said:
"Back in the early 14th century, when the Kiev see was moved without the canonical permission of the Mother-Church to Moscow"

I'm going to repeat a question, which the Ukrainian nationalists here have failed to answer:

Do you know what Kiev was like in the early 14th century? Do you think it would be reasonable to require the Metropolitan of Kiev to remain in a city that had been razed to the ground and was now a devastated backwater subject to frequent Tatar raids and banditry? (And, by the way, the Metropolitan who made this move was St. Maximus, who was a Roman appointed by Constantinople.)

Irene, Cossack, Liza, what do you say?
My own observation is: Isn't rich that a group of titular bishops in a titular church are bemoaning that a living church changed the location of its See as has been done by others. Very simple solution if this is a legitimate concern the Patriarch of Moscow will become the Patriarch of all the Russias and Archbishop of Moscow and Kiev.

All this talk of being a Mother Church makes me think someone has mommy issues. When I grew up I loved my mother but she no longer had authority over me.

Personally, I do not believe that the Ecumenical Councils allow for Istanbul to be autocephalous. Time for it to return to its mother.
 

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No emperor  = No empire (ecumene) = No Patriarch of the Imperial City
 

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ICXCNIKA said:
Iconodule said:
"Back in the early 14th century, when the Kiev see was moved without the canonical permission of the Mother-Church to Moscow"

I'm going to repeat a question, which the Ukrainian nationalists here have failed to answer:

Do you know what Kiev was like in the early 14th century? Do you think it would be reasonable to require the Metropolitan of Kiev to remain in a city that had been razed to the ground and was now a devastated backwater subject to frequent Tatar raids and banditry? (And, by the way, the Metropolitan who made this move was St. Maximus, who was a Roman appointed by Constantinople.)

Irene, Cossack, Liza, what do you say?
My own observation is: Isn't rich that a group of titular bishops in a titular church are bemoaning that a living church changed the location of its See as has been done by others.
Some are titular, some are ruling bishops.  The flock may have dwindled thanks to  500+ years of Turkish action (and especially thanks to the modern era), but it's still there, worshiping, running their schools, witnessing to the local population, and trying their best to live the Christian life unto salvation.
 

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Fr. George said:
ICXCNIKA said:
Iconodule said:
"Back in the early 14th century, when the Kiev see was moved without the canonical permission of the Mother-Church to Moscow"

I'm going to repeat a question, which the Ukrainian nationalists here have failed to answer:

Do you know what Kiev was like in the early 14th century? Do you think it would be reasonable to require the Metropolitan of Kiev to remain in a city that had been razed to the ground and was now a devastated backwater subject to frequent Tatar raids and banditry? (And, by the way, the Metropolitan who made this move was St. Maximus, who was a Roman appointed by Constantinople.)

Irene, Cossack, Liza, what do you say?
My own observation is: Isn't rich that a group of titular bishops in a titular church are bemoaning that a living church changed the location of its See as has been done by others.
Some are titular, some are ruling bishops.  The flock may have dwindled thanks to  500+ years of Turkish action (and especially thanks to the modern era), but it's still there, worshiping, running their schools, witnessing to the local population, and trying their best to live the Christian life unto salvation.
What % of its ruling bishops outside of its canonical territory? Why should Ukraine be independent of MP and the New Lands not independent of Constantinople?
 

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Fr. George said:
Some are titular, some are ruling bishops.  The flock may have dwindled thanks to  500+ years of Turkish action (and especially thanks to the modern era), but it's still there, worshiping, running their schools, witnessing to the local population, and trying their best to live the Christian life unto salvation.
And for that they deserve deep respect and support.

But the fact is that the Ecumenical Patriarch does not preside over the church of a great empire anymore. The see of Constantinople was raised to equality with old Rome (and now to primacy) explicitly because of the political importance of the city.

Constantinople is no longer the capital of a Christian empire. It is not even the capital of Turkey anymore. What is the basis of the privilege of the Ecumenical Patriarchate now? "The canons!" But the canons explicitly base Constantinople's primacy on the fact that it is "the city which is honoured with the Sovereignty and the Senate" (Chalcedon 28).

And to be clear, I am not proposing that this primacy be passed to some other church.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
http://orthochristian.com/115524.html

Are the italicized comments, attributed to the EP, accurately translated?
+1 ???
 
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