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Patriarch Kirill receives piece of Francis of Assisi relics as birthday gift

mike

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http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=13439 said:
Pope Francis has congratulated Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russia on his 70th birthday and given him a precious gift.

"In expressing again my gratitude for presenting me with a piece of the holy relics of Saint Seraphim of Sarov, I am glad to present you with a piece of the relics of St. Francis of Assisi, my heavenly protector," the pope said in a congratulatory message, quoted by the patriarch's press office...
 

Iconodule

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Well, there's this (from an Orthodox church built in 15th century Crete):

 

LBK

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ialmisry said:
Iconodule said:
Well, there's this (from an Orthodox church built in 15th century Crete):

Was it built as an Orthodox Church?
Yes. The oldest parts are from the 13th century, with additions and alterations made in later centuries. It's also worth remembering that Crete was under Venetian rule by about the time the church was built, and for several centuries afterwards.
 

ialmisry

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LBK said:
ialmisry said:
Iconodule said:
Well, there's this (from an Orthodox church built in 15th century Crete):

Was it built as an Orthodox Church?
Yes. The oldest parts are from the 13th century, with additions and alterations made in later centuries. It's also worth remembering that Crete was under Venetian rule by about the time the church was built, and for several centuries afterwards.
Yes, that's why I asked about its confession, given its rulers.
 

LBK

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ialmisry said:
LBK said:
ialmisry said:
Iconodule said:
Well, there's this (from an Orthodox church built in 15th century Crete):

Was it built as an Orthodox Church?
Yes. The oldest parts are from the 13th century, with additions and alterations made in later centuries. It's also worth remembering that Crete was under Venetian rule by about the time the church was built, and for several centuries afterwards.
Yes, that's why I asked about its confession, given its rulers.
The Venetian period brought various influences, secular (particularly to the Greek language) and religious/devotional. So it is not a complete surprise to see St Francis depicted in this church. Unfortunate, and a serious error, and its presence there should in no way be seen as recognizing him as an Orthodox saint.
 

mike

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LBK said:
ialmisry said:
LBK said:
ialmisry said:
Iconodule said:
Well, there's this (from an Orthodox church built in 15th century Crete):

Was it built as an Orthodox Church?
Yes. The oldest parts are from the 13th century, with additions and alterations made in later centuries. It's also worth remembering that Crete was under Venetian rule by about the time the church was built, and for several centuries afterwards.
Yes, that's why I asked about its confession, given its rulers.
The Venetian period brought various influences, secular (particularly to the Greek language) and religious/devotional. So it is not a complete surprise to see St Francis depicted in this church. Unfortunate, and a serious error, and its presence there should in no way be seen as recognizing him as an Orthodox saint.
Iconography is a Tradition of the Church apart from when it is not.
 

LBK

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mike said:
Iconography is a Tradition of the Church apart from when it is not.
Do you regard St Francis of Assisi as an Orthodox saint, and someone whom the church should commemorate and venerate liturgically?
 

scamandrius

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I don't know.  This strikes me like a Yankees fan giving a Boston Red Sox Fan a ball autographed by Babe Ruth as a Yankee.  Maybe Patriarch KIRILL should give an icon of St. John of Kronstadt to the pope. 
 

mike

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LBK said:
mike said:
Iconography is a Tradition of the Church apart from when it is not.
Do you regard St Francis of Assisi as an Orthodox saint, and someone whom the church should commemorate and venerate liturgically?
What does the presence of his icon in an Orthodox church mean?
 

Mor Ephrem

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scamandrius said:
I don't know.  This strikes me like a Yankees fan giving a Boston Red Sox Fan a ball autographed by Babe Ruth as a Yankee.  Maybe Patriarch KIRILL should give an icon of St. John of Kronstadt to the pope.
Or a relic of St Seraphim of Sarov...
 

scamandrius

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Mor Ephrem said:
scamandrius said:
I don't know.  This strikes me like a Yankees fan giving a Boston Red Sox Fan a ball autographed by Babe Ruth as a Yankee.  Maybe Patriarch KIRILL should give an icon of St. John of Kronstadt to the pope.
Or a relic of St Seraphim of Sarov...
There you go.
 

LBK

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mike said:
LBK said:
mike said:
Iconography is a Tradition of the Church apart from when it is not.
Do you regard St Francis of Assisi as an Orthodox saint, and someone whom the church should commemorate and venerate liturgically?
What does the presence of his icon in an Orthodox church mean?
Please answer my question first, Mike.
 

mike

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LBK said:
mike said:
LBK said:
mike said:
Iconography is a Tradition of the Church apart from when it is not.
Do you regard St Francis of Assisi as an Orthodox saint, and someone whom the church should commemorate and venerate liturgically?
What does the presence of his icon in an Orthodox church mean?
Please answer my question first, Mike.
The answer is no.

Your turn.
 

LBK

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mike said:
The answer is no.
Good.

mike said:
What does the presence of his icon in an Orthodox church mean?
It means that someone painted someone who was never an Orthodox Christian, whether by baptism or martyrdom, and who was not, and still is not, an Orthodox saint, venerated by the Church. In other words, someone got it badly wrong. We (the Church) do not sing services and hymns to him, so why should his image be there among all the other Orthodox saints?

The presence of an “icon” of St Francis in an Orthodox church does not mean that he can now magically be regarded as an Orthodox saint. He never was part of the Orthodox Church to begin with.

Roman Catholic monastic orders, including Franciscans, had established themselves in Venetian-ruled Crete, which also ruled other parts of Greece, in the centuries between the last Crusades and independence from the Ottomans. This would explain how such an image found its way into an Orthodox church. An explanation, but not a justification.

Given the Polish and other Roman Catholic influence over the centuries on Belarus, Ukraine and other places of Eastern Europe at the crossroads of Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, it is highly likely that icons of RC saints have found their way into Orthodox churches in those lands. The presence of such images was, and remains, an error.
 

Dominika

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LBK said:
Given the Polish and other Roman Catholic influence over the centuries on Belarus, Ukraine and other places of Eastern Europe at the crossroads of Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, it is highly likely that icons of RC saints have found their way into Orthodox churches in those lands. The presence of such images was, and remains, an error.
The Polish roots are pretty eastern, that's first thing. The second fact is that there were also Orthodox influences on Polish Roman Catholicism, and the Częstochowa Icon is probably the most known example.
 

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LBK said:
mike said:
The answer is no.
Good.

mike said:
What does the presence of his icon in an Orthodox church mean?
It means that someone painted someone who was never an Orthodox Christian, whether by baptism or martyrdom, and who was not, and still is not, an Orthodox saint, venerated by the Church. In other words, someone got it badly wrong. We (the Church) do not sing services and hymns to him, so why should his image be there among all the other Orthodox saints?

The presence of an “icon” of St Francis in an Orthodox church does not mean that he can now magically be regarded as an Orthodox saint. He never was part of the Orthodox Church to begin with.

Roman Catholic monastic orders, including Franciscans, had established themselves in Venetian-ruled Crete, which also ruled other parts of Greece, in the centuries between the last Crusades and independence from the Ottomans. This would explain how such an image found its way into an Orthodox church. An explanation, but not a justification.

Given the Polish and other Roman Catholic influence over the centuries on Belarus, Ukraine and other places of Eastern Europe at the crossroads of Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, it is highly likely that icons of RC saints have found their way into Orthodox churches in those lands. The presence of such images was, and remains, an error.
the impotent letter of the law.
 

Georgios Scholarios

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LBK said:
It means that someone painted someone who was never an Orthodox Christian, whether by baptism or martyrdom, and who was not, and still is not, an Orthodox saint, venerated by the Church. In other words, someone got it badly wrong. We (the Church) do not sing services and hymns to him, so why should his image be there among all the other Orthodox saints?
The problem with this is firstly that the Orthodox Church currently has saints that were not in communion with the Church, such as Arethas and Isaac the Syrian. Secondly, saints sometimes pop into and out of veneration depending on locality, so just because today we don't feel like Francis of Assisi is an Orthodox saint and don't sing hymns to him doesn't mean the veneration of Francis by 15th century Orthodox on Crete is automatically invalid.

Further, I'd guess why mike said "Iconography is a Tradition of the Church apart from when it is not" was just to poke fun at Orthodox who like to say "Orthodox tradition is liturgical" but immediately backpedal on this once they realize the liturgy can be used to bring out a conclusion they dislike (not to say that's you LBK).
 

Iconodule

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Expecting someone to express coherent ideas is clear evidence of a mindset deformed by Latin legalism and scholasticism. The only cure is more OC.net.
 

scamandrius

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Iconodule said:
Expecting someone to express coherent ideas is clear evidence of a mindset deformed by Latin legalism and scholasticism. The only cure is more OC.net.
I thought the cure for anything was more cowbell.
 

Justin Kolodziej

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I wonder if this particular church ever accepted the council of Florence and for how long. Of course why this icon's still there is no less mysterious, but that could clear up why it exists in the first place.
 

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LBK said:
ialmisry said:
LBK said:
ialmisry said:
Iconodule said:
Well, there's this (from an Orthodox church built in 15th century Crete):

Was it built as an Orthodox Church?
Yes. The oldest parts are from the 13th century, with additions and alterations made in later centuries. It's also worth remembering that Crete was under Venetian rule by about the time the church was built, and for several centuries afterwards.
Yes, that's why I asked about its confession, given its rulers.
The Venetian period brought various influences, secular (particularly to the Greek language) and religious/devotional. So it is not a complete surprise to see St Francis depicted in this church. Unfortunate, and a serious error, and its presence there should in no way be seen as recognizing him as an Orthodox saint.
The Venetian (or Enetian as the Venetians were called Enetians by the Cretans) period of Crete was a harsh opressive period for the Orthodox on the island I have a friend whose doctorate dissertation was the suffering of the Cretan Orthodox Church under the Venetians. They proved to be very able deceivers, I've read about this town that after the death of the local beloved Orthodox priest the Venetians installed a Roman Catholic one who kept the local Orthodox traditions but introduced Latin innovations subtly, such as veneration of western post-schism saints, unleavened bread in communion etc.
After the deaths of the Orthodox Bishops the Venetians did not allow the local Orthodox to elect new bishops, they installed Catholic instead, the last Orthodox Archbishop of Crete was Nicholas who left the island for Smyrna, he was the canonical Archbishop of Crete in exile.
Large Orthodox metropolises in the 14th c. had parishes with the protopsaltis or even a deacon as proistamenos because the priest was not trustworthy (he was too Orthodox). A huge uncanonical mess. But truth to be told in the last 100-150 years of the Venetian rule, the Orthodox had influenced so much the Venetians that their aristocracy did not speak Venetian anymore, they had become crypto-Orthodox, even their surnames were eventually hellenised (e.g the De Gallina became Διαλλινάς-Diallinas, Vittori = Βετούρης (Vetoures), Acotanto = Κουτάντος (Koutandos), Manuzzato = Μανούσος (Manousos) etc). I have the feeling that the icon of Francis if Assisi is probably a proof of the quasi-Orthodox attitude of the Venetians in the last century or so of their rule of Crete, the Vanetian family that sponsored the icon had become somewhat Orthodox as they paid for the making of an icon of a saint they venerate, but not so Orthodox, as the saint depicted is a post-schism one.
And then came the Ottomans in 1669.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
scamandrius said:
I don't know.  This strikes me like a Yankees fan giving a Boston Red Sox Fan a ball autographed by Babe Ruth as a Yankee.  Maybe Patriarch KIRILL should give an icon of St. John of Kronstadt to the pope.
Or a relic of St Seraphim of Sarov...
I see what you're alluding to here. But when Pat. Kirill (via Met. Hilarion) gave Pope Francis a relic of St. Seraphim in September, it was inside of an Easter Egg. So these are two very different things when you think about it! :angel:
 

Mor Ephrem

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Asteriktos said:
Mor Ephrem said:
scamandrius said:
I don't know.  This strikes me like a Yankees fan giving a Boston Red Sox Fan a ball autographed by Babe Ruth as a Yankee.  Maybe Patriarch KIRILL should give an icon of St. John of Kronstadt to the pope.
Or a relic of St Seraphim of Sarov...
I see what you're alluding to here. But when Pat. Kirill (via Met. Hilarion) gave Pope Francis a relic of St. Seraphim in September, it was inside of an Easter Egg. So these are two very different things when you think about it! :angel:
So it's like they gave Pope Francis a Kinder Egg, but it was really a Kinder Surprise! 
 

hecma925

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Apostolos said:
LBK said:
ialmisry said:
LBK said:
ialmisry said:
Iconodule said:
Well, there's this (from an Orthodox church built in 15th century Crete):

Was it built as an Orthodox Church?
Yes. The oldest parts are from the 13th century, with additions and alterations made in later centuries. It's also worth remembering that Crete was under Venetian rule by about the time the church was built, and for several centuries afterwards.
Yes, that's why I asked about its confession, given its rulers.
The Venetian period brought various influences, secular (particularly to the Greek language) and religious/devotional. So it is not a complete surprise to see St Francis depicted in this church. Unfortunate, and a serious error, and its presence there should in no way be seen as recognizing him as an Orthodox saint.
The Venetian (or Enetian as the Venetians were called Enetians by the Cretans) period of Crete was a harsh opressive period for the Orthodox on the island I have a friend whose doctorate dissertation was the suffering of the Cretan Orthodox Church under the Venetians. They proved to be very able deceivers, I've read about this town that after the death of the local beloved Orthodox priest the Venetians installed a Roman Catholic one who kept the local Orthodox traditions but introduced Latin innovations subtly, such as veneration of western post-schism saints, unleavened bread in communion etc.
After the deaths of the Orthodox Bishops the Venetians did not allow the local Orthodox to elect new bishops, they installed Catholic instead, the last Orthodox Archbishop of Crete was Nicholas who left the island for Smyrna, he was the canonical Archbishop of Crete in exile.
Large Orthodox metropolises in the 14th c. had parishes with the protopsaltis or even a deacon as proistamenos because the priest was not trustworthy (he was too Orthodox). A huge uncanonical mess. But truth to be told in the last 100-150 years of the Venetian rule, the Orthodox had influenced so much the Venetians that their aristocracy did not speak Venetian anymore, they had become crypto-Orthodox, even their surnames were eventually hellenised (e.g the De Gallina became Διαλλινάς-Diallinas, Vittori = Βετούρης (Vetoures), Acotanto = Κουτάντος (Koutandos), Manuzzato = Μανούσος (Manousos) etc). I have the feeling that the icon of Francis if Assisi is probably a proof of the quasi-Orthodox attitude of the Venetians in the last century or so of their rule of Crete, the Vanetian family that sponsored the icon had become somewhat Orthodox as they paid for the making of an icon of a saint they venerate, but not so Orthodox, as the saint depicted is a post-schism one.
And then came the Ottomans in 1669.
That's fascinating.  Would that dissertation be available online?
 

scamandrius

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hecma925 said:
Apostolos said:
LBK said:
ialmisry said:
LBK said:
ialmisry said:
Iconodule said:
Well, there's this (from an Orthodox church built in 15th century Crete):

Was it built as an Orthodox Church?
Yes. The oldest parts are from the 13th century, with additions and alterations made in later centuries. It's also worth remembering that Crete was under Venetian rule by about the time the church was built, and for several centuries afterwards.
Yes, that's why I asked about its confession, given its rulers.
The Venetian period brought various influences, secular (particularly to the Greek language) and religious/devotional. So it is not a complete surprise to see St Francis depicted in this church. Unfortunate, and a serious error, and its presence there should in no way be seen as recognizing him as an Orthodox saint.
The Venetian (or Enetian as the Venetians were called Enetians by the Cretans) period of Crete was a harsh opressive period for the Orthodox on the island I have a friend whose doctorate dissertation was the suffering of the Cretan Orthodox Church under the Venetians. They proved to be very able deceivers, I've read about this town that after the death of the local beloved Orthodox priest the Venetians installed a Roman Catholic one who kept the local Orthodox traditions but introduced Latin innovations subtly, such as veneration of western post-schism saints, unleavened bread in communion etc.
After the deaths of the Orthodox Bishops the Venetians did not allow the local Orthodox to elect new bishops, they installed Catholic instead, the last Orthodox Archbishop of Crete was Nicholas who left the island for Smyrna, he was the canonical Archbishop of Crete in exile.
Large Orthodox metropolises in the 14th c. had parishes with the protopsaltis or even a deacon as proistamenos because the priest was not trustworthy (he was too Orthodox). A huge uncanonical mess. But truth to be told in the last 100-150 years of the Venetian rule, the Orthodox had influenced so much the Venetians that their aristocracy did not speak Venetian anymore, they had become crypto-Orthodox, even their surnames were eventually hellenised (e.g the De Gallina became Διαλλινάς-Diallinas, Vittori = Βετούρης (Vetoures), Acotanto = Κουτάντος (Koutandos), Manuzzato = Μανούσος (Manousos) etc). I have the feeling that the icon of Francis if Assisi is probably a proof of the quasi-Orthodox attitude of the Venetians in the last century or so of their rule of Crete, the Vanetian family that sponsored the icon had become somewhat Orthodox as they paid for the making of an icon of a saint they venerate, but not so Orthodox, as the saint depicted is a post-schism one.
And then came the Ottomans in 1669.
That's fascinating.  Would that dissertation be available online?
Are you being serious or is this just some way of saying "you're wrong" without actually posting evidence to back them up?  I really don't know with you.
 

hecma925

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scamandrius said:
hecma925 said:
Apostolos said:
LBK said:
ialmisry said:
LBK said:
ialmisry said:
Iconodule said:
Well, there's this (from an Orthodox church built in 15th century Crete):

Was it built as an Orthodox Church?
Yes. The oldest parts are from the 13th century, with additions and alterations made in later centuries. It's also worth remembering that Crete was under Venetian rule by about the time the church was built, and for several centuries afterwards.
Yes, that's why I asked about its confession, given its rulers.
The Venetian period brought various influences, secular (particularly to the Greek language) and religious/devotional. So it is not a complete surprise to see St Francis depicted in this church. Unfortunate, and a serious error, and its presence there should in no way be seen as recognizing him as an Orthodox saint.
The Venetian (or Enetian as the Venetians were called Enetians by the Cretans) period of Crete was a harsh opressive period for the Orthodox on the island I have a friend whose doctorate dissertation was the suffering of the Cretan Orthodox Church under the Venetians. They proved to be very able deceivers, I've read about this town that after the death of the local beloved Orthodox priest the Venetians installed a Roman Catholic one who kept the local Orthodox traditions but introduced Latin innovations subtly, such as veneration of western post-schism saints, unleavened bread in communion etc.
After the deaths of the Orthodox Bishops the Venetians did not allow the local Orthodox to elect new bishops, they installed Catholic instead, the last Orthodox Archbishop of Crete was Nicholas who left the island for Smyrna, he was the canonical Archbishop of Crete in exile.
Large Orthodox metropolises in the 14th c. had parishes with the protopsaltis or even a deacon as proistamenos because the priest was not trustworthy (he was too Orthodox). A huge uncanonical mess. But truth to be told in the last 100-150 years of the Venetian rule, the Orthodox had influenced so much the Venetians that their aristocracy did not speak Venetian anymore, they had become crypto-Orthodox, even their surnames were eventually hellenised (e.g the De Gallina became Διαλλινάς-Diallinas, Vittori = Βετούρης (Vetoures), Acotanto = Κουτάντος (Koutandos), Manuzzato = Μανούσος (Manousos) etc). I have the feeling that the icon of Francis if Assisi is probably a proof of the quasi-Orthodox attitude of the Venetians in the last century or so of their rule of Crete, the Vanetian family that sponsored the icon had become somewhat Orthodox as they paid for the making of an icon of a saint they venerate, but not so Orthodox, as the saint depicted is a post-schism one.
And then came the Ottomans in 1669.
That's fascinating.  Would that dissertation be available online?
Are you being serious or is this just some way of saying "you're wrong" without actually posting evidence to back them up?  I really don't know with you.
???
 

Mor Ephrem

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scamandrius said:
hecma925 said:
Apostolos said:
LBK said:
ialmisry said:
LBK said:
ialmisry said:
Iconodule said:
Well, there's this (from an Orthodox church built in 15th century Crete):

Was it built as an Orthodox Church?
Yes. The oldest parts are from the 13th century, with additions and alterations made in later centuries. It's also worth remembering that Crete was under Venetian rule by about the time the church was built, and for several centuries afterwards.
Yes, that's why I asked about its confession, given its rulers.
The Venetian period brought various influences, secular (particularly to the Greek language) and religious/devotional. So it is not a complete surprise to see St Francis depicted in this church. Unfortunate, and a serious error, and its presence there should in no way be seen as recognizing him as an Orthodox saint.
The Venetian (or Enetian as the Venetians were called Enetians by the Cretans) period of Crete was a harsh opressive period for the Orthodox on the island I have a friend whose doctorate dissertation was the suffering of the Cretan Orthodox Church under the Venetians. They proved to be very able deceivers, I've read about this town that after the death of the local beloved Orthodox priest the Venetians installed a Roman Catholic one who kept the local Orthodox traditions but introduced Latin innovations subtly, such as veneration of western post-schism saints, unleavened bread in communion etc.
After the deaths of the Orthodox Bishops the Venetians did not allow the local Orthodox to elect new bishops, they installed Catholic instead, the last Orthodox Archbishop of Crete was Nicholas who left the island for Smyrna, he was the canonical Archbishop of Crete in exile.
Large Orthodox metropolises in the 14th c. had parishes with the protopsaltis or even a deacon as proistamenos because the priest was not trustworthy (he was too Orthodox). A huge uncanonical mess. But truth to be told in the last 100-150 years of the Venetian rule, the Orthodox had influenced so much the Venetians that their aristocracy did not speak Venetian anymore, they had become crypto-Orthodox, even their surnames were eventually hellenised (e.g the De Gallina became Διαλλινάς-Diallinas, Vittori = Βετούρης (Vetoures), Acotanto = Κουτάντος (Koutandos), Manuzzato = Μανούσος (Manousos) etc). I have the feeling that the icon of Francis if Assisi is probably a proof of the quasi-Orthodox attitude of the Venetians in the last century or so of their rule of Crete, the Vanetian family that sponsored the icon had become somewhat Orthodox as they paid for the making of an icon of a saint they venerate, but not so Orthodox, as the saint depicted is a post-schism one.
And then came the Ottomans in 1669.
That's fascinating.  Would that dissertation be available online?
Are you being serious or is this just some way of saying "you're wrong" without actually posting evidence to back them up?  I really don't know with you.
lol
 

Porter ODoran

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Apostolos said:
LBK said:
ialmisry said:
LBK said:
ialmisry said:
Iconodule said:
Well, there's this (from an Orthodox church built in 15th century Crete):

Was it built as an Orthodox Church?
Yes. The oldest parts are from the 13th century, with additions and alterations made in later centuries. It's also worth remembering that Crete was under Venetian rule by about the time the church was built, and for several centuries afterwards.
Yes, that's why I asked about its confession, given its rulers.
The Venetian period brought various influences, secular (particularly to the Greek language) and religious/devotional. So it is not a complete surprise to see St Francis depicted in this church. Unfortunate, and a serious error, and its presence there should in no way be seen as recognizing him as an Orthodox saint.
The Venetian (or Enetian as the Venetians were called Enetians by the Cretans) period of Crete was a harsh opressive period for the Orthodox on the island I have a friend whose doctorate dissertation was the suffering of the Cretan Orthodox Church under the Venetians. They proved to be very able deceivers, I've read about this town that after the death of the local beloved Orthodox priest the Venetians installed a Roman Catholic one who kept the local Orthodox traditions but introduced Latin innovations subtly, such as veneration of western post-schism saints, unleavened bread in communion etc.
After the deaths of the Orthodox Bishops the Venetians did not allow the local Orthodox to elect new bishops, they installed Catholic instead, the last Orthodox Archbishop of Crete was Nicholas who left the island for Smyrna, he was the canonical Archbishop of Crete in exile.
Large Orthodox metropolises in the 14th c. had parishes with the protopsaltis or even a deacon as proistamenos because the priest was not trustworthy (he was too Orthodox). A huge uncanonical mess. But truth to be told in the last 100-150 years of the Venetian rule, the Orthodox had influenced so much the Venetians that their aristocracy did not speak Venetian anymore, they had become crypto-Orthodox, even their surnames were eventually hellenised (e.g the De Gallina became Διαλλινάς-Diallinas, Vittori = Βετούρης (Vetoures), Acotanto = Κουτάντος (Koutandos), Manuzzato = Μανούσος (Manousos) etc). I have the feeling that the icon of Francis if Assisi is probably a proof of the quasi-Orthodox attitude of the Venetians in the last century or so of their rule of Crete, the Vanetian family that sponsored the icon had become somewhat Orthodox as they paid for the making of an icon of a saint they venerate, but not so Orthodox, as the saint depicted is a post-schism one.
And then came the Ottomans in 1669.
Well while I'm sure he has his historical bases, this strikes me as an unnecessarily dark view. Other authors refer to this period as one of unusual amicability between Christians of both sides, culturally and spiritually rich, and a high point for the arts. Basically in many parts of the island, it came to be a de facto reunion of the faiths, with the common people and lower clergy seemingly frankly appreciative of the abundance of spiritual wealth offered by the confluence of traditions. And, yes, some people of both sides participated in popular cults of the other, of which Francis is one example.
 

ialmisry

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Porter ODoran said:
Other authors refer to this period as one of unusual amicability between Christians of both sides, culturally and spiritually rich, and a high point for the arts.
Someone seeking the Vatican's imprimatur?
 
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Here are icons that depict Saint Francis of Assisi and Saint Seraphim of Sarov together:

https://prayerofsaintephrem.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/imag0186.jpg

http://orthodoxmoscow.ru/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/serafim_fransis.jpg

There is even a figurine: http://ortox.ru/kupit/statuetka-olovyannaya-molitva-o-edinstve-cerkvi-svyatye-serafim-sarovskij-i-francisk-assizskij-xudozhestvennaya-rospis/


 

Iconodule

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Porter ODoran said:
Other authors refer to this period as one of unusual amicability between Christians of both sides, culturally and spiritually rich, and a high point for the arts.
In his essay "Orthodox and Catholics: Schism or Intercommunion?" Metropolitan Kallistos Ware notes that there is abundant evidence that Greeks and Latins, not just in Crete, continued to share sacraments, intermarry, and even share church buildings up to the 18th century. Latins were allowed to serve as godparents at Orthodox baptisms and vice versa. Some churches even had Latin and Byzantine style altars next to each other. And this can't be chalked up to Venetian oppression as it occurred in many places outside of Venetian or Latin control.

 

scamandrius

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Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
I think St. Francis was a pretty Orthodox guy. Talk about a man who lived the ascetic life and struggled toward theosis. I venerate him.

Selam
Why have bishops promoting the true faith when we have you? 
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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scamandrius said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
I think St. Francis was a pretty Orthodox guy. Talk about a man who lived the ascetic life and struggled toward theosis. I venerate him.

Selam
Why have bishops promoting the true faith when we have you?
If I say anything that contradicts the true Faith then I urge you to disregard it.

Selam
 

Alpo

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Iconodule said:
Porter ODoran said:
Other authors refer to this period as one of unusual amicability between Christians of both sides, culturally and spiritually rich, and a high point for the arts.
In his essay "Orthodox and Catholics: Schism or Intercommunion?" Metropolitan Kallistos Ware notes that there is abundant evidence that Greeks and Latins, not just in Crete, continued to share sacraments, intermarry, and even share church buildings up to the 18th century. Latins were allowed to serve as godparents at Orthodox baptisms and vice versa. Some churches even had Latin and Byzantine style altars next to each other. And this can't be chalked up to Venetian oppression as it occurred in many places outside of Venetian or Latin control.
Is the essay available online?
 

Iconodule

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Nah. Parts are online through Google books but to read it in full you'll have to buy the book:

https://www.amazon.com/Schism-Religious-Protest-Studies-History/dp/0521101786
 

minasoliman

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I admire his boldness when he appeared before Arabs.  This would lead a lot of Arab Orthodox to venerate him, maybe in secret.
 
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