Perssonism's teaching on icons.

ialmisry

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Since you refuse to address St. John's arguments,
http://books.google.com/books?id=x_U1mtafEPMC&pg=PA90&dq=John+of+Damascus+on+the+divine+images+4:15&hl=en&ei=65hXTM3QBIyJnQfpnM3YCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=snippet&q=mercy%20seat&f=false
but just assert your own teaching.

Alfred Persson said:
John's exegesis of De 4:15f is impossible. God expressly rules out any kind of male human icon as imaging His similitude.
There are different kinds of image.  The first kind is the natural image.  In each thing it is necessary that first there is what is by nature, and then what is contrived or by imitation, for example, first there is a human being by nature and then what is contrieved by imitation.  Therefore, the first natural and undeviating image of the invisible God is the Son of the Father, showing in himself the Father.  "For no one has ever seen God," and again, "it is not the case that anyone has seen the Father."  That the Son is the image of the Father is affirmed by the Apostle: "Who is the Image of the invisible God," and, to the Hebrews, " Who being the radiance of his glory and the express image of His person," and that, He shows in Himself the Father in the Gospel according to John, when Philip says, "show us the Father and is it enough for us," and the Lord replies, "Have I been so long with you, and you have not known me, Philip? Whoever has seen Me has seen the Father."

Deu 4:15 And take good heed to your hearts, for ye saw no similitude in the day in which the Lord spoke to you in Choreb in the mountain out of the midst of the fire:
16 lest ye transgress, and make to yourselves a carved image, any kind of figure (EIKWN), the likeness of male or female,-LXX, Brenton
Bravo on using the Bible of the Church.

Therefore, all who image the flesh of Jesus, and insist this does not contradict De 4:15f, thereby deny 1)He is God; 2)The Word became male human flesh.
It is clear that whenyou see the bodilesss become human for your sake, then you may accomplish the figure of a human form; when the invisible becomes visible in the flesh, then you may depict the likeness of something seen; when One Who, by transcending His Own nautre, is bodiless, formless, incommensurable, wihtout magnitude or size, that is, One Who is in the form of God, taking the form of a slave, by this reduction to quantity and magnitude puts on the characteristics of a body, then depict Him on a board and set up to view the One Who has accepted to be seen.

You sylllogism makes absolutely no sense, unless you deny the Incarnation. But the Apostle taught us "The Word became Flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory." Moses did not. Exodus 33:20.

Moreover separating Transcendent Deity from His Flesh is Nestorianism.
Yes, and you are guilty of it.


Both natures are united indivisibly in the One Person of the Eternal Son.
So taught the Fathers in the Seven Ecumenical Council, preserving the Faith handed them by the Apostles.

One cannot image the male human flesh of Jesus without thereby rending Him from His infinitude and making Him like His creation.
We don't have to image Him: the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have beheld His glory.

It is deducible from God's commanding images of cherubim overshadowing the Mercy seat, that the reason for the prohibition is the transcendence of God not be undermined.

Answer me this question.  Is God one God?  Yes, you say, as it seems to me, one lawgiver.  When then does He decree whatis contradictory?  For the cherubim are not outside creation..  Why does He prescribe carved cherubim fashioned by human hands to overshadow the mercy seat?  It is clear that it is impossible to make an image of God or of anything like God, since He is uncircumscribable and unimaginable, lest the creation be venerated in worship as God.  Since the cherubim are circumscribable, He prescribs the making of an image of them prostrate before the divine throne, to overshadow the mercy seat; for it was fitting that the image of the divine mysteries should shadow the image of the heavenly servants...Of old, God the incorporeal and formless was never depicted, but now that God has been seen in the flesh and has associated with human kind, I depict what I have seen of God.


Therefore, any EIKONA of Jesus is violating not just the letter of Deu 4:15f, but also its spirit.
Submit to the tradition of the Church and allow the veneration of images of God and friends of God....Do not abuse matter, for it is not dishonarable, this is the view of the Manichees.  The only thing that is dishonorable is something that does not have its origin from God, but is our own discovery, by the free inclination and turning of our will from what is natural to what is unnatural, that is sin.  If because of the law you dishonor images and prohibit them as fashioned from matter, see what Scriptures says: "And the Lord spoke to Moses saying...let everyone wise in heart among you come and work everything, that the Lord has commanded, the tabernacle...."  Look at the likeness of the cherubim. How therefore can you say that what the law orders to be made is prohibited by the law?  If, because of the law, you prohibit images, watch that you keep the sabbath and are circumcised; for these the law unyieldingly commands. But know that if you keep the law, "Christ is no use to you; you who would be justified by the law, have fallen from grace."  Israel of old ddi not see God, "but we, with unveiled face, behold the glory of God."

Contrary to St. John Damascene's
Fixed that for you.  Learn from Miriam's example.

citing the images of cherubs etc as collaborative proof, their existence does the opposite as God never commanded these be venerated, nor are God's people shown venerating them anywhere in scripture, except in two instances by the Patriarchs, and it is evident from the Law's prohibition of this, that God did not approve. He clearly "winked" at their error (Ac 17:30):
An "error" that He commanded them to commit.  Rather novel idea.  Actually, no: the Muslims held it before you.

Keep your hands to yourself, Uzzah.

Abraham planted a grove

Gen 21:33 "Then Abraham planted a field at the Well of Oath, and there he called on the name of the Lord."-Orthodox Study Bible

33. Abraham planted a grove—Hebrew, “of tamarisks,” in which sacrificial worship was offered, as in a roofless temple.
[1]Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., Fausset, A. R., Brown, D., & Brown, D. (1997). A commentary, critical and explanatory, on the Old and New Testaments. On spine: Critical and explanatory commentary. (Ge 21:33). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Jacob set up a pillar

Gen 18:16 Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, "The Lord is in this place, and I did not know it."
Gen 18:17 So he was afraid and said "How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven."
Gen 18:18 Now Jacob rose early in the morning, and took the stone he put at his head, set it up as a pillar, and poured oil on top of it.-Orthodox Study Bible

This veneration was not acceptable to God as He later forbade both in Deuteronomy 16:21f

Deut 16:21 You shall not plant for yourself any grove or any tree near the altar of the Lord your God which you build for yourself.
Deut 16:22 You shall not set up a pillar the Lord your God hates.- Orthodox Study Bible.
The King of Glory hung from the tree of the Cross, and keep the Sabbath in the Garden Tomb.  "Tear down this Sanctuary, and in three days I will  raise it up."
 

ialmisry

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Alfred Persson said:
LBK said:
Alfred Persson said:
I apologize.

Perhaps this then:

I've heard folks get irrational when you attack their idols, they respond to reasoned argument with reviling etc.

Is that true?
No, Alfred. Most of us try to be dispassionate and objective, using verifiable Orthodox tradition (scripture, the writings of the Fathers, the liturgical deposit of the Church, the resolutions of the Ecumenical Councils), as well as history.

There is nothing new under the sun. Iconoclasm is as old as Christianity itself,
Actually no. Although some cannot learn from the mistakes of others, Iconoclasm does not reach that far back as the Apostles.

and keeps reinventing itself in the form of Calvinist prohibitions of images,  the Jehovah's Witnesses insistence that Christ was executed on a vertical pole, not on a cross, etc etc - yet iconography survives and thrives to this day.
I did not see reasoned argument in that quote...only a claim.
Well, you ought to know.


I would truly enjoy a dispassionate objective, and verifiable Orthodox response, citing the scripture we both love dear, how you suppose it contradicts my argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dura-Europos#The_house_church
 

jnorm888

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Exodus 20: 4-5
"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

The Early Christians always had Signs, Symbols and Icons of birds, fish, the cross, people ........etc.  And so the point that he was trying to make was already shot in the foot in early Christianity. The same is true for alot of Jews as well, for even they had signs, symbols, and icons of birds, fruit, trees, stars, people ......etc











ICXC NIKA
 

jnorm888

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http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2008/07/21/elvira-mistress-of-the-cheesy/ (The local western Synod of Elvira: Did it really condemn Icons? The answer is no)

http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2010/03/31/irenaeus-and-icons/ (Irenaeus and Icons)

http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2010/06/12/picking-cherries/ (The Iconoclastic controversy)

http://orthodox-apologetics.blogspot.com/search/label/A%20Defense%20of%20the%20Holy%20Icons (A Defense of the Holy Icons)

http://orthodox-apologetics.blogspot.com/2010/06/fourth-century-arian-icons.html (Fourth Century Arian Icons)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN4bHegr6QY (Holy Icons: The ancient Christian tradition of images)


Vatican: Oldest known images of apostles Andrew and John found......I think they were dated to the 4th century











ICXC NIKA
 

ialmisry

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samkim said:
Why do you accept the canon of the Old Testament that you use to attack us?
Because evidently he doesn't accept the New Testament. Galations 5:12.
 

ialmisry

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Alfred Persson said:
jnorm888 said:
Robert W said:
Alfred Persson said:
As we have seen the human flesh of the Son, Gods' transcendent Deity remained transcendent:
Christ is no mere "avatar" remote controlled from heaven. Christ is the second person of the Trinity. Christ is God, and we have seen him. The Father remains unseen, but we have still seen God.

If depicting Christ is tearing Divinity from humanity and falling into nestorianism, then all who saw Christ were nestorians (I will stand or fall together with them). I fail to understand the difference between seeing Christ and depicting Christ.

EDIT: Mayby I should also read this essay, written by Saint John of Damascus, that you all talk about. :D Thank you for the link LBK.
The OO nonchalcedonians also embrace Icons and so according to his logic this will make them Nestorians too!

The truth is, his argument is a Nestorian one, he just doesn't know it yet. I wonder if he is able to call our blessed Mother Theotokos?

His argument against Icons and the 7th council would have to be against the 3rd council as well.

ICXC NIKA
Incorrect. It is elementary icons are inspiring heresy because:

1)If icons image the Incarnate flesh only, they are tearing His human nature from the divine, Nestorian.
2)If icons image the whole Christ, then they confuse the two natures in the one icon, Monophysite.
NKJV (you seem to like that), John 20:19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.


24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.”
So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”
26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

SOoo.  If St. Thomas, as instructed by Christ, saw His hands and believed, he committed the error of Nestorius, and confessing the divinity of He Whose hand he beheld, he committed the error of Eutyces. The other Apostles, claiming they saw the Lord, evidently also committed both errors. And of course, we have to blame the Lord for teaching heresy, showing them His Body and telling them to loolk with their eyes and believe.  Rather odd theology Perssonism expouses.

He who sees Him sees the Father.
 

ialmisry

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Alfred Persson said:
Now, to the actual task at hand- the Deuteronomy 4:15 passage.  I will bold the gaping hole in your logic.   "And take good heed to your hearts, for ye saw no similitude in the day in which the Lord spoke to you in Choreb in the mountain out of the midst of the fire:
16 lest ye transgress, and make to yourselves a carved image, any kind of figure (EIKWN), the likeness of male or female,-LXX, Brenton"

By the way, the OSB, which you apparently own since you quoted it for your later texts renders this into a more modern grammatical structure as this: "So be careful to guard your souls, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb on the mountain from the midst of the fire. 16 Do not act lawlessly and make for yourselves a carved form of any image; the likeness of male or female"  It seems that you merely selected a translation that would appear to back your argument up


No, I want it clear the Septuagint forbids every kind of (EIKWN)
Is the description God gave of the Tabernacle, the command to make the brazen serpent, the description of the Temple  Solomon built (with pillars, btw) upon which God's Presence rested not in your copy of the LXX.  You should get a better, more complete, copy.

And get of a copy of the sequel, the NT.


And you evaded my points:

1)John's exegesis of De 4:15f is impossible as God expressly rules out any kind of male human icon as imaging His similitude.
You haven't quoted St. John of Damascus' exegesis, so we can't address it. Just your eisogesis of the verse.

ἰδοὺ ἡ παρθένος ἐν γαστρὶ ἕξει καὶ τέξεται υἱόν καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ εμμανουηλ
Behold the virgin will have a child in the womb and shall bear a son and they will call His name Emmanoul.

If you miss the last part, consult St. Matthew:"which translated means 'God is with us.'" St. Matthew also tells us that the Father bore witness to Him saying "This is My beloved Son." But before that, the Magi "had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother and prostrated and worshipped Him."

Deu 4:15 And take good heed to your hearts, for ye saw no similitude in the day in which the Lord spoke to you in Choreb in the mountain out of the midst of the fire:
16 lest ye transgress, and make to yourselves a carved image, any kind of figure (EIKWN), the likeness of male or female,-LXX, Brenton
καὶ φυλάξεσθε σφόδρα τὰς ψυχὰς ὑμῶν ὅτι οὐκ εἴδετε ὁμοίωμα ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ᾗ ἐλάλησεν κύριος πρὸς ὑμᾶς ἐν χωρηβ ἐν τῷ ὄρει ἐκ μέσου τοῦ πυρός


ἀλλὰ ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου λαβών, ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος· καὶ σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος  

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance [σχῆμα:eek:utward appearance, form, shape] as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

2)Moreover separating Transcendent Deity from His Flesh is Nestorianism.
If that is a bad thing, why do you do it?

Both natures are united indivisibly in the One Person of the Eternal Son.
Indeed.

Note the quote in the halo. It's from the OT.

3)It is evident from all the other God approved images in the Temple, Ark, etc, that God has no problem with images at all....ONLY those that render the Transcendent Infinite God finite like His creatures. That violates the Holiness of God, His separateness from all creation.
Christ is the image (εἰκὼν, i.e. "icon") of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation....For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell. As He said "Before Abraham was, I AM." Despite the fact that He was not yet fifty years old.

There are more, but lets start with these, shall we?
What you have started St. John of Damascus, the Fathers of the Seventh Ecumenical Council and the Triumph of Orthodoxy ended long ago.


Since it bear's the image of Caesar, it is Caesar's, and therefore give it to Caesar. If the image of Christ, give it back to Christ, for it is Christ's.
 

ialmisry

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Robert W said:
Alfred Persson said:
Alfread Pearson, you say that icons are Nestorian. Can you please answer yes or no to the following questions?

A photo is similar to a painting. Yes/no?
Photos are taken using light sensitive sensors.  Yes/no?
Eyes are composed of light sensitive sensors. Yes/no?
Looking at someone creates an image of the person they are beholding within their eyes. Yes/no?
The first nestorian was Virgin Mary, because she looked at her own child. Yes/no?

If icons are nestorian then I claim that Virgin Mary was the first nestorian.
Maybe it was Abraham:
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
 

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;D ;D ;D This is turning into an absurd discussion about if Virgin Mary or Abraham was the first nestorian.
 

ialmisry

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Robert W said:
;D ;D ;D This is turning into an absurd discussion about if Virgin Mary or Abraham was the first nestorian.
Of course. Nestorius was the first Nestorian. Hence the term.

Some people refuse to learn from others' mistakes.
 

Fr. George

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Why am I reminded of the confession of Basil of Ancyra at the 7th Ecumenical Council, when he said, "Anathema to those who apply the words of Holy Scripture which were spoken against idols, to the venerable images."  Hmmm.
 

Fr. George

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Mr. Persson,

What do you think of the following?

he doctrine of the Eastern Church may be seen from the following from The Orthodox Confession of the faith of the Catholic and Apostolic Church of the East.

{Confes. Orthodox.  P. III. Q. LII. [apud Kimmel, Libri Symbolici Ecclesiæ Orientalis538538    This is not found in Schaff’s, The Creeds of Christendom, Vol. II., although part of the Orthodox Concession (viz. Pt. I.) is reprinted.  The editor explains (p. 275) that he has printed “the doctrinal part in full,” and has omitted the rest because it “belongs to Ethics rather than Symbolics.”  A somewhat extraordinary opinion to be held by anyone who has read the omitted parts.].}

Rightly therefore do we honour the Saints of God, as it is written (Ps. cxxxix. 17) “How dear are thy friends unto me, O God.”  And divine assistance we ask for through them, just as God ordered the friends of Job to go to his faithful servant, and that he should offer sacrifice and pray for them that they might obtain remission of sin through their patronage.  And in the second place this [First] commandment forbids men to adore any creature with the veneration of adoration (λατρείας).  For we do not honour the Saints as though adoring them, but we call upon them as our brothers, and as friends of God, and therefore we seek the divine assistance through these, our brethren.  For they go between the Lord and us for our advantage.  And this in no respect is opposed to this commandment of the decalogue.

Wherefore just as the Israelites did not sin when they called upon Moses to mediate between them and God, so neither do we sin, when we call for the aid and intercession of the Saints.

(Ibid.  Quæstio LIV.)

This [Second] Commandment is separate from the first.  For that treated of the Unity of the true God, forbidding and taking away the multitude of gods.  But the present treats of external religious ceremonies.  For besides the not honouring of false gods, we ought to dedicate no carved likeness in their honour, nor to venerate with adoration such things, nor to offer the sacrifices of adoration to them.  Therefore they sin against this commandment who venerate idols as gods, and offer sacrifices to them, and place their whole confidence and hope in them; as also the Psalmist says (Ps. cxxxv. 15), “The images of the heathen are silver and gold, etc.”  They also transgress this precept who are given up to covetousness, etc.

(Ibid.  Quæstio LV.)

There is a great distinction between idols and images (τῶν εἰδώλων καὶ τῶν εἰκόνων).  For idols are the figments and inventions of men, as the Apostle testifies when he says (1 Cor. viii. 4), “We know that an idol is nothing in the world.”  But an image is a representation of a true thing having a real existence in the world.  Thus, for example, the image of our Saviour Jesus Christ and of the holy Virgin Mary, and of all the Saints.  Moreover, the Pagans venerated their idols as gods, and offered to them sacrifices, esteeming the gold and silver to be God, as did Nebuchadnezzar.

But when we honour and venerate the images, we in no way venerate the colours or the wood of which they are made; but we glorify with the veneration of dulia (δουλείας), those holy beings of which these are the images, making them by this means present to our minds as if we could see them with our eyes.  For this reason we venerate the image of the crucifixion, and place before our minds Christ hung upon the cross for our salvation, and to such like we bow the head, and bend the knee with thanksgiving.  Likewise we venerate the image of the Virgin Mary, we lift up our mind to her the most holy Mother of God, bowing both head and knees before her; calling her blessed above all men and women, with the Archangel Gabriel.  The veneration, moreover, of the holy images as received in the orthodox Church, in no respect transgresses this commandment.

But this is not one and the same with that we offer to God; nor do the orthodox give it to the art of the painting, but to those very Saints whom the images represent.  The Cherubim which overshadowed the mercy-seat, representing the true Cherubim which stand before God in heaven, the Israelites revered and honoured without any violation of the commandment of God, and likewise the children of Israel revered the tabernacle of witness with a suitable honour (II Sam. vi. 13), and yet in no respect sinned nor set at naught this precept, but rather the more glorified God.  From these considerations it is evident that when we honour the holy images, we do not transgress the commandment of the decalogue, but we most especially praise God, who is “to be admired in his Saints” (Ps. lxviii. 35).  But this only we should be careful of, that every image has a label, telling of what Saint it is, that thus the intention of him who venerates it may be the more easily fulfilled.

And for the greater establishment of the veneration of the holy images, the Church of God at the Seventh Ecumenical Synod anathematized all those who made war against the images, and set forth the veneration of the august images, and established it forever, as is evident from the ninth canon of that synod.

(Ibid.  Quæstio LVI.)

Why was he praised in the Old Testament who broke down the brazen serpent (II Kgs. xviii. 4) which long before Moses had set up on high?  Answer:  Because the Jews were beginning an apostasy from the veneration of the true God, venerating that serpent as the true God; and offering to it incense as the Scripture saith.  Therefore wishing to cut off this evil, lest it might spread further, he broke up that serpent in order that the Israelites might have no longer that incentive to idolatry.  But before they honoured the serpent with the veneration of adoration, no one was condemned in that respect nor was the serpent broken.

But Christians in no respect honour images as gods, neither in their veneration do they take anything from the true adoration due to God.  Nay, rather they are led by the hand, as it were, by the image to God, while under their visible representations they honour the Saints with the veneration of dulia (δουλικῶς) as the friends of God; asking for their mediation (μεσιτεύουσιν) to the Lord.  And if perchance some have strayed, from their lack of knowledge, in their veneration, it were better to teach such an one, rather than that the veneration of the august images should be banished from the Church.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xvi.xiii.html
 

ialmisry

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Alfred Persson said:
Melodist said:
Deu 4:15 And take good heed to your hearts, for ye saw no similitude in the day in which the Lord spoke to you in Choreb in the mountain out of the midst of the fire:
16 lest ye transgress, and make to yourselves a carved image, any kind of figure (EIKWN), the likeness of male or female,-LXX, Brenton

It says that the Israelites you could not use any form to represent God, who had not revealed himself to them in any form at that point. God did finally reveal Himself in Jesus Christ, who does have a form.
Thanks for responding to the argument.
You have a whole thread here for your views.

You  argue the prohibition against male icons of God is because God never revealed Himself as a human male.

BUT if that is true, how is it God said they never saw His similitude, they certainly saw human males.
He had not been incarnated yet. Phillipians 1:7. Do keep up.

Therefore your exegesis is impossible.
Only if you repeat the error of Valentinus, who imagined that Chrsit brought His Body from Heaven, and passed through the Vrigin like a pipe.
http://books.google.com/books?id=rJw3AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA56&dq=Panarion+Christ+body+from+heaven&cd=1#v=onepage&q&f=false

Rather than permit the making of icons if God reveals His similitude, God stated a historical fact, "ye saw no similitude" and then prohibits any kind of icon of His similitude, including those imaging human flesh.
God stated a historical fact "'He who has seen Me has seen the Father'....and showing His hands said "Look! Be not unbelieving but believe."

Therefore any icon of God's similitude contradicts Deu 4:15f.
ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως,
Christ "is the image (icon) of the Invisible God, the firstborn of all creation," "the express image of His person," The fullfilment of Deut. 4:15, "for it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness dwell," for "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,  has in these last days spoken to us by His Son".

So if an icon of Jesus body is made, that is a denial 1)He is God, or 2)came in human flesh.
No, denying His icon is a confession of Docetism, that God only "seemed" to come in human flesh.

The rest of what you say is germane only if you can refute the above, so until then, lets focus on Deut 4:15f.
The veil of Moses does not cover our minds, so whenever we read the law of Moses we can only focus on John 1:14, 16-7.
 

ialmisry

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The originator of Perssonism seems hell bent on repeating past erros, including his own:

Alfred Persson said:
jnorm888 said:
Deu 4:15 And take good heed to your hearts, for ye saw no similitude in the day in which the Lord spoke to you in Choreb in the mountain out of the midst of the fire:
This isn't talking about the Incarnation. This is talking about the Ancient Jews not seeing similitude in the day in which the Lord spoke to them in Choreb on the mountain out of the midst of the fire.
If the incarnate body is not the "similitude of God" this verse is irrelevant to icons, which destroys the rational for making icons...that the incarnation made the similitude of God sensible and therefore can be imaged.

You can't have both as true, you must choose; either

1)the "similitude" in Deu 4:15 is the "incarnate body" of Christ

OR

2)the "similitude" in Deu 4:15 is NOT the "incarnate body" of Christ



If you pick #1, then: the icon's prototype is not 1)God for the prohibition doesn't have an except if you seen it clause; 2)His similitude is not human flesh as it is expressly ruled out as an image of His similitude.

If you pick #2, then: John D's rational for making icons of God vanishes, the prohibition remains and you are all idolatrous.


Pick one.
Alfred Persson said:
Its irrelevant how you understand that...what is material is your choice of these 2 possibilities:

1)the "similitude" in Deu 4:15 is the "incarnate body" of Christ

OR

2)the "similitude" in Deu 4:15 is NOT the "incarnate body" of Christ


Pick one.
Alfred Persson said:
Prove its relevance...show how that destroys the need to pick one of these two possibilities:

1)the "similitude" in Deu 4:15 is the "incarnate body" of Christ

OR

2)the "similitude" in Deu 4:15 is NOT the "incarnate body" of Christ

If you can't do that, you must pick one.
We pick the One, Holy Catholic, Apostolic and Orthodox Church, the Body of Christ, Who took flesh and dwelt among us, and the Church beheld His glory, to whom he gave the right to become children of God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,  has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, rendering Deut. 4:15 "obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear."
 

ialmisry

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Alfred Persson said:
Fr. George said:
Alfred Persson,

You have yet to respond to the points of discussion directed to your assertions in the following thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29149.0.html

Have a nice day.
You want I step into a "gauntlet". Kindly tell them all "Keep holding  your breath, he will be here any minute!"

ha ha!

God says "they saw no similitude",
They didn't. But God the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we behold His Glory.

they cannot make an ICON in the likeness of a human male etc.
They couldn't.  Being the Body of Christ, we can, should and do.

Therefore human flesh is not God's similitude, they have seen that.
No, we have seen Him, and thus we have seen God the Father.

Deu 4:15 And take good heed to your hearts, for ye saw no similitude in the day in which the Lord spoke to you in Choreb in the mountain out of the midst of the fire:
16 lest ye transgress, and make to yourselves a carved image, any kind of figure (EIKWN), the likeness of male or female,-LXX, Brenton
God "hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. 12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 6Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. (KJV-you seem to have changed your preference-II Corinthians 3)

"1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God....18For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) 22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." Heb. 12).

John of Damascus says Jesus incarnate body is the similitude of God, we can make an icon of Him, this therefore does not violate Deu 4:15f
.

Are you quoting or do you assUme that is what St. John says?

As Deu does not allow icons of God in human flesh, the only way an icon of Jesus body does not violate Deut 4:15 is if:

1)The icon's prototype is not God.
2)The icon is not imaging human flesh.
Demonstrating yet again that you have not read St. John.

He who has seen Him has seen the Fatehr. Unless you follow Valentius, Nestorius, the Gnostics....

That is my First argument.
Hesiarchs before argued it. St. John answered it.

Here is the Second:

1)If icons image the Incarnate flesh only, they are tearing His human nature from the divine, Nestorian.
2)If icons image the whole Christ, then they confuse the two natures in the one icon, Monophysite.
Christ showed....the Apostles looked....they said "We have seen the Lord"...."be not unbeleiving, but believe"....."My Lord and My God." He who has seen Him has seen the Father, as the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory.

Now  you can decry my pedigree, education, religion, ect, but until you actually treat my argument, nothing you gents say is relevant

If any reading this suddenly realize how foolish icons are and are wondering what to do next...
Remember what St. Paul said: 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed  (Galations 1)

Repent of idolatry and any mysticism with it and cry out to the LORD Jesus Christ, "save me a sinner, I beg you", publicly confess you believe He is LORD risen from the dead," for it is  written:

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(Rom 10:9-10 NKJ)
The Lord's sermon on the Mount (Matthew 7:)21Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.


God does not lie,
No, God doesn't. The gates of Hell shall never prevail against His Church, and He will be with her all the days until the end of the age.

do that, and you are saved. He will guide you what to do next.
Do as the apostle Paul said:"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." II Thessalonians 2:15..."Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the traditions, as I delivered them to you." I Corinthians 11:2...."Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us." II Thessalonians 3:6.

I recall obeying that myself, and haven't looked back at my former life wanting anything, these 30+ years Jesus has always been with me, never forsaking me.
So why did you forsake Him? Luke 10:16.

And He will do the same for you, but you must repent, and confess He is LORD in public, before the eyes of angels and men.
I Timothy 3:14These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: 15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
 

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The "Apologia of St John Damascene Against Iconoclasts" is an argument by analogy: The similitude of God is like the Incarnate body of God:

"And the Lord spoke to you from the midst of the fire. You heard the voice of His words, but you saw not any form at all." (Deut. 4.12) And shortly afterwards: "Keep your souls carefully. You saw not any similitude in the day that the Lord God spoke to you in Horeb from the midst of the fire, lest perhaps being deceived you might make you a graven similitude, or image of male and female......
The Scripture says, "You have not seen the likeness of Him." (Ex. 33.20) What wisdom in the law-giver. How depict the invisible? How picture the inconceivable? How give expression to the limitless, the immeasurable, the invisible? How give a form to immensity? How paint immortality? How localise mystery? It is clear that when you contemplate God, who is a pure spirit, becoming man for your sake, you will be able to clothe Him with the human form. When the Invisible One becomes visible to flesh, you may then draw a likeness of His form. When He who is a pure spirit, without form or limit, immeasurable in the boundlessness of His own nature, existing as God, takes upon Himself the form of a servant in substance and in stature, and a body of flesh, then you may draw His likeness, and show it to anyone willing to contemplate it. Depict His ineffable condescension, His virginal birth, His baptism in the Jordan, His transfiguration on Thabor, His all-powerful sufferings, His death and miracles, the proofs of His Godhead, the deeds which He worked in the flesh through divine power, His saving Cross, His Sepulchre, and resurrection, and ascent into heaven. Give to it all the endurance of engraving and colour.-Apologia of St John Damascene Against iconoclasts,

"You have not seen the likeness of Him" paraphrases Deut 4:12, not Ex 33:20.

" When the Invisible One becomes visible to flesh, you may then draw a likeness of His form."

John's implied premise: God prohibits imaging the similitude of God because we have not seen it, therefore God would permit imaging the Incarnate body of God because we have seen it.

If this is not correct, John's argument fails. So the question is, "Did God say the Israelites could image His similitude had they seen it?" Was the fact its unlike anything in the experience of man the reason we cannot image it?

"So be careful to guard your souls, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb on the mountain from the midst of the fire. 16. Do not act lawlessly and make for yourselves a carved form of any image the likeness of male or female. 17. the likeness of any cattle on the earth, or the likeness of any winged bird that flies under heaven. 18 the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, or in the likeness of any fish in the waters beneath the earth."-Deu 4:15-18 Orthodox Bible.

No because this context is Moses' exegesis of the second commandment, which adds infinite heaven, where every possible image would exist, to the list of areas containing forbidden likenesses of His similitude:

"You shall not make yourself an image, neither any likeness of anything in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, or in the waters under the earth."-Deu 5:8 OB

God had revealed Himself in fire at Horeb, condescending to a Personal relationship with HIs people. It would be abhorrent to God if His children began to visualize Him as some dungy image as they communed with His Spirit.

"I am the Lord God; this is my Name. I will not give my glory to another, not My praise to carved images."-Isaiah 42:8 OB

When the transcendent God becomes a detestable image in the psyche of man, any personal relationship with God is defiled, driving God away:

"Then He said to me, "Son of man, do you see what they are doing? They commit great acts of lawlessness here to keep Me from My sanctuary."-Ezekiel 8:6 OP

21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. (1Jo 5:21 NKJ)

 

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Idols are false gods.  Christ is the true God.  Therefore, an icon of Him is not an idol but simply a reminder that God became flesh and dwelt among us. 
 

Fr. George

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Alfred Persson said:
No because this context is Moses' exegesis of the second commandment, which adds infinite heaven, where every possible image would exist, to the list of areas containing forbidden likenesses of His similitude:

"You shall not make yourself an image, neither any likeness of anything in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, or in the waters under the earth."-Deu 5:8 OB
Why, in one instance, would any image of anything in heaven or earth be forbidden, and yet in another instance God commanded the likenesses of Angels to be carved into the Ark?  Why would likenesses of angels be depicted in the Temple?  Why would He command Moses to make the Bronze serpent?  Your argument is sounding more Muslim than Christian.
 

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Alfred Persson said:
"So be careful to guard your souls, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb on the mountain from the midst of the fire. 16. Do not act lawlessly and make for yourselves a carved form of any image the likeness of male or female. 17. the likeness of any cattle on the earth, or the likeness of any winged bird that flies under heaven. 18 the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, or in the likeness of any fish in the waters beneath the earth."-Deu 4:15-18 Orthodox Bible.
Deut 4:19 "Also do not act lawlessly when you lift your eyes to heaven and see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the adornment of heaven, and you thus go astray and worship and serve them, which the Lord your God assigned to all the nations under heaven." (SAAS)

From v16 "do not act lawlessly...."; from v19 "do not act lawlessly...." Note the parallel construction that then leads to "and you thus go astray and worship and serve them. If (carved) images are by their very nature idols, then so are all the heavenly bodies.
"You shall not make yourself an image, neither any likeness of anything in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, or in the waters under the earth."-Deu 5:8 OB
The thought of this verse is completed in verse 9: "you shall not bow down to them nor serve them...."(SAAS)
Context matters.
 

ialmisry

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Alfred Persson said:
The "Apologia of St John Damascene Against Iconoclasts" is an argument by analogy: The similitude of God is like the Incarnate body of God:

"And the Lord spoke to you from the midst of the fire. You heard the voice of His words, but you saw not any form at all." (Deut. 4.12) And shortly afterwards: "Keep your souls carefully. You saw not any similitude in the day that the Lord God spoke to you in Horeb from the midst of the fire, lest perhaps being deceived you might make you a graven similitude, or image of male and female......
The Scripture says, "You have not seen the likeness of Him." (Ex. 33.20) What wisdom in the law-giver. How depict the invisible? How picture the inconceivable? How give expression to the limitless, the immeasurable, the invisible? How give a form to immensity? How paint immortality? How localise mystery? It is clear that when you contemplate God, who is a pure spirit, becoming man for your sake, you will be able to clothe Him with the human form. When the Invisible One becomes visible to flesh, you may then draw a likeness of His form. When He who is a pure spirit, without form or limit, immeasurable in the boundlessness of His own nature, existing as God, takes upon Himself the form of a servant in substance and in stature, and a body of flesh, then you may draw His likeness, and show it to anyone willing to contemplate it. Depict His ineffable condescension, His virginal birth, His baptism in the Jordan, His transfiguration on Thabor, His all-powerful sufferings, His death and miracles, the proofs of His Godhead, the deeds which He worked in the flesh through divine power, His saving Cross, His Sepulchre, and resurrection, and ascent into heaven. Give to it all the endurance of engraving and colour.-Apologia of St John Damascene Against iconoclasts,

"You have not seen the likeness of Him" paraphrases Deut 4:12, not Ex 33:20.

" When the Invisible One becomes visible to flesh, you may then draw a likeness of His form."

John's implied premise: God prohibits imaging the similitude of God because we have not seen it, therefore God would permit imaging the Incarnate body of God because we have seen it.

If this is not correct, John's argument fails. So the question is, "Did God say the Israelites could image His similitude had they seen it?" Was the fact its unlike anything in the experience of man the reason we cannot image it?

"So be careful to guard your souls, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb on the mountain from the midst of the fire. 16. Do not act lawlessly and make for yourselves a carved form of any image the likeness of male or female. 17. the likeness of any cattle on the earth, or the likeness of any winged bird that flies under heaven. 18 the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, or in the likeness of any fish in the waters beneath the earth."-Deu 4:15-18 Orthodox Bible.

No because this context is Moses' exegesis of the second commandment, which adds infinite heaven, where every possible image would exist, to the list of areas containing forbidden likenesses of His similitude:

"You shall not make yourself an image, neither any likeness of anything in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, or in the waters under the earth."-Deu 5:8 OB

God had revealed Himself in fire at Horeb, condescending to a Personal relationship with HIs people. It would be abhorrent to God if His children began to visualize Him as some dungy image as they communed with His Spirit.

"I am the Lord God; this is my Name. I will not give my glory to another, not My praise to carved images."-Isaiah 42:8 OB

When the transcendent God becomes a detestable image in the psyche of man, any personal relationship with God is defiled, driving God away:

"Then He said to me, "Son of man, do you see what they are doing? They commit great acts of lawlessness here to keep Me from My sanctuary."-Ezekiel 8:6 OP

21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. (1Jo 5:21 NKJ)
This seems to be a repeat of the post answered here.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29148.msg460023/topicseen.html#msg460023
 
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