Perssonism's teaching on icons.

ialmisry

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Alfred Persson said:
Melodist said:
Alfred Persson said:
No images are objectionable per se (except those of God), its the act of venerating them that is objectionable.

I could have those pictures on my living room wall, but I could never venerate them.
So it's OK to have an image of Jesus, just as long as you don't venerate that image or think of it as an image of God?
Sure, paintings, statues, film, don't see the harm.
Ah, but consistent iconoclasts do.

"A picture is worth a thousand words."  If you put up a painting or a statute, it's for a reason.  If I have a picture on your wall of Jesus, it tells me something. If you have a picture of the Dalai Lama, Ann Rand, Marx, Che Guevara, Playboy's Miss August,....it tellls me something else. If if you do not pray before it or burn incense before it.

There's a reason why in the Soviet Union pictures of Lenin and Stlalin were all over, and why the picture of Lenin or Stalin being put in a public place spreads fear.  Few look at the Statue of Liberty without being moved in some way, Americans one way, al-Qaida another. Film is among the most, if not THE most effective means of propoganda: children often play what they see in film.  After "Top Gun" enlistment to the air force shot up.

Aniconists and Iconoclasts see the power of the image and shun it.  The Amish shun it based on their interpretation (with as much authority as your interpretation, i.e. none) of Exodus and Deuteronomy, knowing that pictures arose egoism (see how everyone preens and tries not to look like themself, i.e. the plain truth, when they sit for a photo.  Your like minded rabbis shun images whether or not they are used as idols.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniconism_in_Judaism
An authoritative breakdown can be found in the Shulkhan Arukh, section yoreh deah which takes the literal meaning of פסל pesel as "graven image" (from the root פסל P-S-L, "to engrave." See Exodus 34:1, 4; Deuteronomy 10:1, 3.) The prohibition is therefore seen as applying specifically to certain forms of sculpture and depictions of the human face. In keeping with this prohibition, some illustrations from the Middle Ages feature fantastic creatures—usually bird-headed humanoids, even when the depictions are quite clearly meant to be those of historical or mythological humans. The most well-known is the Birds' Head Haggadah (Germany, circa 1300). Because such creatures as gryphons, harpies, sphynxes, and the Phoenix do not actually exist, no violation of the prohibition is perceived in such depictions. This is based on the fact that the Second Commandment, as stated in Exodus, refers specifically to "anything in the heaven above, on the earth below, or in the water below the land." However, it is forbidden to make the four faces on the Divine Chariot (Ezekiel I) or the ministering angels, because these are believed to be real beings that actually exist "in the heaven above." (Kitzur Shulkhan Arukh 138:1)
(the part on the sphinx being OK is odd, since although that idol is nothing in the world and that there is none other God but one, it was worshipped):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Sphinx_of_Giza

The Muslims shun images, in particular of Muhammad.  The Danish cartoon flap a few years ago brought this up, but most Muslims do not want even respectful pictures of their prophet-even a respectful one can get you killed.  For instance, here is a picture of Muhammad destroying the idols in the Ka'bah (btw, according to Muslim Tradition there was an icon of the Theotokos and Christ in the Ka'bah, which their prophet covered with his body while instructing his followers to destroy everything else).  He's the flame.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad
he is also shown veiled, when he is shown at all.


When Muslims make movies on Muhammad, he is never shown: the characters only talk about him, and when necessary, the camera takes the viewpoint of Muhammad.  Since Protestant iconoclasts come from a religion with icons, they have no problem with film and pictures of Christ. Except those who take their aniconic views seriously, who become iconoclasts, and like the B'nei Noach reject the incarnation as idolatry and join the rest who interpret the prohibition of images like you do.

Worshiping Jesus via an image, or having an image of Him in mind during worship,  rends Him from His transcendent Deity, making finite what is infinite.
"He who has seen Me has seen the Father."  So you believe the Father is not transcendent Deity and not infinite? 

God made Himself finite when he took the likeness of man.  We had no means to accomplish that.  It was the good pleasure of the Father which did, emptying out the fullness of Godhead into the icon of the invisible God.

God doesn't want to be imaged in your psyche as you pray to Him,
The He would not have taken flesh and shown us His glory, showing on Tabor what was not seen on Sinai.

that would be like me visualizing you as dung as I spoke to you.[/b]

One of the early Muslim polemics about the incarnation have to do with the idea of God coming out of a filthy place (there words) full of urine and dung, and blood and menses.  The Holy Theotokos bore the Son. He wasn't her bowel movement.

You would be insulted...God is insulted when you visualize Him as finite xyz, He isn't that at all.
We see Him as He is, the finite man Who is the firstborn of all creation, the icon of the invisible God.  In the beginning the Word was God, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory.
 

ialmisry

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Alfred Persson said:
PeterTheAleut said:
...
You see, Alfred, you've come to an Orthodox Christian discussion forum to present a doctrine that contradicts what the Apostles taught us and we have always believed...
If that's the case, cite the apostolic teaching God is to be imaged, and venerated through that image.
He is the icon of the invisible God, in Whom it was the good pleasure of the Father that the fullness of the Godhead to dwell in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, and when He came into the world God ordered that all His angels worship Him(Col. 1:15, 19, I Corinthians 5:19 Heb. 1:6)

Obviously you cannot,
We have, several times.
jnorm888 said:
Vatican: Oldest known images of apostles Andrew and John found......I think they were dated to the 4th century
jnorm888 said:
The reality/facts on the ground for early Christianity is one of:
ialmisry said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dura-Europos#The_house_church
As for back as we have physical evidence of Christianity, we find icons.

but I can cite where Paul contradicts what you have been taught:

NKJ  2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. (2Co 5:7 NKJ)
Then why does he "come to visions and revelations of the Lord" (2Cor 12;1) and ask the same Church "Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?" (1Co 9:1). Before your quote the Apostles says:

(2Cor. 3:)4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;[a] for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
What do you think is the mirror we are looking in? 2Cor. 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the icon of God, should shine on them. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Read the Gospel book He holds open

 

ialmisry

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Alfred Persson said:
antiderivative said:
Alfred Persson said:
Then the incarnation of Christ is irrelevant to your icon. If you don't make an icon of Christ because you have seen His flesh, then you may as well make an icon of God, even though you haven't seen His similitude.

The argument for icons rests upon seeing Christ's body, while not making one because of not seeing the similitude.

If you destroy the rationale for icons, then what's to prevent making icons of the Father and the Spirit?
I'm not sure how what I just said made the incarnation of Christ irrelevant. The person of God the Father has not been seen, and is therefore not depictable, the person of the Holy Spirit has been seen in the form of a dove and is depictable, and Christ was seen because of the incarnation, and is also depictable.
Think about your statement:

The person of God the Father has not been seen, and is therefore not depictable

It should follow:

"The person of God the Son has not been seen, and is therefore not depictable"

BUT it doesn't, you depict the Son. How? Because His body was seen.

So the very existence of  your icon rests, not upon the Person, but upon the body of Christ.

So your icon must be imaging His Body, even if you maintain the prototype is the whole Christ.
No, God maintains that:"He is the icon of the invisible God the firstborn of creation [He wasn't "of creation" until He had His body]...For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness [of Godhead] should dwell and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through His blood [I think He got His blood from His body, let us know if you deny that] of His Cross." Col. 1:15, 19-20.  That  is, if you believe "Paul, an Apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God" 1:1.  Of course, he claimed "God was in Christ" II Corin. 5:19.

The Person, and infinite Being of God, are not visible to image, only His body is.
So Christ lied when He told St. Philip "He who has seen Me has seen the Father." John 14:9. Obviously, St. Philip was only looking at His body.  If He did thus not behold the Person of Christ, the infinite Being of God, the Fullness of Godhead, the Word made flesh, and did not behold the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, then icons are a lie, as much a lie as the words of Christ the Word in John 14:9 God did not take the likeness of man, nor take flesh and dwell among us.

And the Holy Spirit caused St. Elizabeth to lie, as she was "filled with the Holy Spirit and spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of My Lord should come to me?" Luke 1:41-43. The Lord could only have a mother if "when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law," (Gal. 4:4) and if that lying Spirit which made St. Elizabeth call the Holy Theotokos "the Mother of My Lord," then that same lying Spirit lies when "God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into [our] hearts, crying, Abba, Father" (Gal. 4: 6).

Matthew 12:31. Mark 3:29. Luke 12:10.

You seem intent on repeating Nestorius' mistakes.

So you can't tell me Christ's body is not being imaged by your icon.
Why would we deny that. Of course our icon images Christ's body, the icon of the invisible God, in which all the fullness of Godhead dwellt by the good pleasure of the Father, Whom we see, seeing the express image of His person in the face of Jesus Christ (2 Cor.4:6).

That's from centuries before the iconclasts, from Mt. Sinai. God is now seen there.
 

ialmisry

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Alfred Persson said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Alfred Persson said:
PeterTheAleut said:
...
You see, Alfred, you've come to an Orthodox Christian discussion forum to present a doctrine that contradicts what the Apostles taught us and we have always believed...
If that's the case, cite the apostolic teaching God is to be imaged, and venerated through that image.
It's not just on icons that you came to preach to us, Alfred.  Besides, the denial of icons is itself a denial of the Incarnation, a doctrine foundational to the Gospel proclaimed by the Apostles.
On the contrary, it is elementary acceptance of icons denies Jesus is God. God outlaws every possible icon of Himself, including those imaging human nature. The Orthodox appear centuries later, making images of Jesus, based on His human nature.

Therefore either Jesus is not God, or His Incarnate flesh is not human.

Therefore it is axiomatic: All who venerate icons and claim this does not violate Deut 4:16 thereby proclaim Jesus is not God.
You can put it in boldface, color, italics...as much as you like. It remains your eisogesis, dreamed up well over a millenium and a half after the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory. As much as you want to pull the wool of the veil of Moses over our eyes, we still see the the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, the icon of God (2 Corin. 4:4) "if our gospel be hid it is hid to them that are lost, whom the the god of this world hath blinded the mind of them which believe not lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ who is the image of God should shine unto them."

It is simplisitc denial of icons which denies Jesus is God. God enjoins the only possible icons of Himself, those imaging the human nature which likeness He took. The iconoclasts appear centuries later, destroying images of Jesus, based on the nature of the Incarnate Word.

The Orthodox, from whom you purloined your Bible, have been here since Christ promised us the gates of Hell would not prevail against that One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church, with which He promised to be all the days even unto the end of the Age.  You're on your own, because thou  walkest disorderly and not after the Tradition which we received of the Apostles.

If He cannot be imaged, then His dvinity was not incarnate, the Word did not take flesh, and the fullness of Godhead did not dwell within Him, and Jesus is not God. We dealt with this with Nestorius a millenium and a half before you decided to repeat his mistakes. Either Jesus isn't God or His divinity is not incarnate. Or His incarnate flesh isn't human, which makes the words of God the Word "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself: handle Me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have." Luke 24:39 a lie.

The denial of the icon of the invisible God is the denial that Jesus is God. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and again, when He bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, He saith, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."

He who sees Me has seen the Father. Moses saw on Tabor what He did not see on Sinai.  Therefore it is axiomatic: All who refuse to venerate icons and claim this does not violate Deut 4:16 thereby proclaim Jesus is not God.
 

ialmisry

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Alfred Persson said:
ialmisry said:
Full answer on the more appropriate thread on this link:
ialmisry said:
You seem intent on repeating Nestorius' mistakes.
That wasn't an answer, and its iconographers who accomplish two heresies, with one icon.

As they image because of the incarnation of Christ, they are tearing the humanity of Christ, from His deity = Nesotorian.

As they image the Person of Christ, with one image, they confuse the natures in one icon = Monophysite.
Yes, you have chanted that mantra before.  But none of us have converted to Hinduism in the meantime, so we won't be worshipping your sacred cow, even if you put it in Bethel or Dan.  Rather, we'll be serving up the sacred beef filled theological arguments of St. John and Christ's Church.

LOL. The Nestorians tear the humanity of Christ from His deity, which is why, like you, they don't have icons.

You evidently didn't know that fact, did you?

As for Monophystism, if that were so, so is the Apostle Paul, who tells us that the fullness of Godhead, by the pleasure of the Father, dwellt in the icon of the invisible God, Who was born of a woman. You are actually the monophysite, because confuse the natures in the Person of Christ, claiming like Eutyches that His humanity disappears in the ocean of His divinity: evidently Christ must be the invisible man, because you claim His person cannot be imaged. But the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father.
 

ialmisry

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Alfred Persson said:
ialmisry said:
Alfred Persson said:
Obviously you cannot, but I can cite where Paul contradicts what you have been taught:

NKJ  2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. (2Co 5:7 NKJ)
Interesting.  I've never seen that passage from 2 Corinthians misused in quite that way before.  You do realize that St. Paul wrote that verse within the context of his preaching on being at home in the body and absent from the Lord as opposed to our anticipated good pleasure of being absent from the body and present with the Lord?  To turn that verse into a proof text against the painting and veneration of icons is indeed quite a stretch not supported at all by its context.  Could it be that you've lost this debate and are now grasping for straws in your desperation to score points?

John of Damascus discusses his need for the sensible to focus his faith, BUT apostolic doctrine has us walking by faith without the sensible being needed at all:
This nonsense as already been answered.
ialmisry said:
Alfred Persson said:
John of Damascus discusses his need for the sensible to focus his faith,
Evidently, St. John wasn't the only one in need for the sensible to focus his faith.
Exodus33:11And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle...17And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in My sight, and I know thee by name. 18And he said, I beseech Thee, shew me Thy glory.
ialmisry said:
Alfred Persson said:
BUT apostolic doctrine has us walking:
LOL. What do you know of apostolic doctrine? as thou walkest disorderly, and not after the Tradition which are received of the Apostles, as St. John points out:
ialmisry said:
Alfred Persson said:
by faith without the sensible being needed at all:
Oh? Is your Bible written in invisible ink?  Is it written on the air? As St. John says "Israel of old did not see God, but we see the Lord's glory face to face."
He goes ont to show the absence of substance to this empty argument:
2Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
ialmisry said:
Then why does he "come to visions and revelations of the Lord" (2Cor 12;1) and ask the same Church "Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?" (1Co 9:1). Before your quote the Apostles says:
(2Cor. 3:)4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;[a] for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
What do you think is the mirror we are looking in? 2Cor. 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the icon of God, should shine on them. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Read the Gospel book He holds open.
2Cor. 5:19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself.

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Rom 1:19 That which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
Rom. 8:28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the icon of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
16:25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
So, you're invisible? Or blind, that sight isn't involved?
you seemed to have skipped the red part.
Gal. 4:4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.
Gal. 4:12Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all. 13Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. 14And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. 15Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.


Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear
Heb 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet...
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
ialmisry said:
"1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God....18For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) 22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." Heb. 12).
Heb.1:1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person.
Heb. 1:6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb. 2:8But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour.
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same.  16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren. [angels are invisible, flesh and blood are not].
Heb. 10:19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:10Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
1Pe 4:1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin.
1Pe 5:1The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed.

2Pe. 1:16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
2:1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not
19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
3:1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour.
14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
 

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I should probably just quote this entire thread to Mr. Persson in the other thread, where he insists on having all the refutations centralized so he can ignore them in one place.
 

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Fr. George said:
I should probably just quote this entire thread to Mr. Persson in the other thread, where he insists on having all the refutations centralized so he can ignore them in one place.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 

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Fr. George said:
I should probably just quote this entire thread to Mr. Persson in the other thread, where he insists on having all the refutations centralized so he can ignore them in one place.
LOL. It's just as easy not to address two threads as it is to not address one.
 

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ialmisry said:
All who refuse to venerate icons and claim this does not violate Deut 4:16 thereby proclaim Jesus is not God.

"As the prophets beheld, as the Apostles have taught, as the Church has received, as the Teachers have dogmatised, as the Universe has agreed, as Grace has shown forth, as Truth has revealed, as falsehood has been dissolved, as Wisdom has presented, as Christ awarded, thus we declare; thus we assert, thus we preach Christ our true God, and honour His Saints in words, in writings, in thoughts, in sacrifices, in Churches, in Holy Icons; on the one hand worshiping and reverencing Christ as God and Lord; and on the other hand honouring as true servants of the same Lord of all and accordingly offering them veneration.

"This is the Faith of the Apostles, this is the Faith of the Fathers, this is the Faith of the Orthodox, this is the Faith which has established the Universe!"
 

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Paisius said:
ialmisry said:
All who refuse to venerate icons and claim this does not violate Deut 4:16 thereby proclaim Jesus is not God.

"As the prophets beheld, as the Apostles have taught, as the Church has received, as the Teachers have dogmatised, as the Universe has agreed, as Grace has shown forth, as Truth has revealed, as falsehood has been dissolved, as Wisdom has presented, as Christ awarded, thus we declare; thus we assert, thus we preach Christ our true God, and honour His Saints in words, in writings, in thoughts, in sacrifices, in Churches, in Holy Icons; on the one hand worshiping and reverencing Christ as God and Lord; and on the other hand honouring as true servants of the same Lord of all and accordingly offering them veneration.

"This is the Faith of the Apostles, this is the Faith of the Fathers, this is the Faith of the Orthodox, this is the Faith which has established the Universe!"
John 12:44Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak
 

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ialmisry said:
Alfred Persson said:
The Holy Spirit wanted "both sides" of the coin revealed, and chose this way to do it. Both are correct, there is no contradiction at all. But the resolution of the apparent paradox will have to wait for another thread...its quite elementary actually...implicit in the following:

NKJ  Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image icon (EIKWN) of His Son
(Rom 8:29 NKJ)
ὅτι οὓς προέγνω, καὶ προώρισε συμμόρφους τῆς εἰκόνος τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ, εἰς τὸ εἶναι αὐτὸν πρωτότοκον ἐν πολλοῖς ἀδελφοῖς·
fixed that for you.
 

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Alfred Persson said:
Alveus Lacuna said:
Alfred Persson said:
No, most were like a Bible study in a house.
Have you looked at the archeological evidence which shows the layout of early house-churches? They were set up for liturgical worship. If they were sitting around having Bible studies which might resemble what many Protestants do today, how were they understanding the texts they were looking at? Who was guiding them in their exegesis?

They certainly were not letting the Scripture interpret itself, as the communities only had some, not all of the later-canonized New Testament writings. They were reading some gospels, some epistles, and what you would likely consider a bunch of superstitious fantasy, like the Acts of Paul and Thecla. I would actually be suspicious of Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism if they lacked any references in their tradition to such works, as they themselves were a part of the life of the Church. Through its liturgical life, the Church has commemorated and preserved many of these stories within the tradition, at least those which were true and beneficial for the flock.

So anyway, the point is that they certainly would have been studying the Septuagint, which we still use in perfect continuity with not only the early Church but also with the LORD Christ, St. Paul and all of the New Testament quotations of the Old Testament. But beyond that they were confined to regional and communal texts, and there was a lot of ambiguity surrounding what were to be considered authoritative writings. Even if every house church had been full of literate Christians (which they were not), who all carried around pocket-sized Septuagints (which they didn't), they still would have looked to their bishop to teach them what they learned from the apostles. They would certainly not have looked to themselves for an authoritative interpretation. Those who did where infamous. They were the heretics.
The earliest house churches were not set up for liturgy.
The earliest house Churches had Divine Liturgy. That is what made them a house Church. On the earliest evidence we have:
ialmisry said:
Alfred Persson said:
But I remember them, they were precisely like the apostolic church:
LOL. Rmember? You were neither in an Apostle's Church in person, nor by extension. You have to be there first to remember.

I've been to several House Churches, for instance the House of St. Ananias in Damascus and in the Decapolis, where the Hebrew Christian fled after the martyrdo of St. James the Brother of God, the first patriarch of Jerusalem. The best preserved in original condition is the Dura Europas House Church, which, like all the house Churches, show that it was renovated to accommodate liturgical worship. And yes, it is covered iin icons.

Btw, we still have plenty of house Churches among the Orthodox in this country. I was just at a former one for Transfiguration. Former, because now it has been fully converted into a Church, but you can still see, if you look close, where the walls that used to seperate rooms were removed, etc. My own Church used to be a Lutheran Church, and we had a lot of adaptation to bring it into line with Orthodox worship (like removing the pews).
Alfred Persson said:
Peter's house was perhaps the first house church:
No, the Upper Room of St. Mark''s mother Maria, site of the Last Supper and Pentecost (among other events), "Holy and glorious Sion, mother of all churches" (Intercession in the Divine Liturgy of St. James, the Brother of God)

"Church of the Apostles Found on Mt. Zion," Bargil Pixner.  Biblical Archaeological Review May/June 1990 Issue
http://www.centuryone.org/apostles.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenacle#History

It has been set up for Divine Liturgy, but it has been extensively destroyed and reconstructed, so I don't know if you can make anything of that.

I was there in the early '90's, and a Pentecostal couple was sitting there railing against "dead Tradition [sic], like Lazarus in the tomb." (they thought the Orthodox even deader than the Vatican). They placed great store in being in the spot of the original Church.  They were perplexed when I raised the issue of how they knew that that was the spot, as only "dead" Tradition could provide that information. I also reminded them that Lazarus rose from the tomb.

Alfred Persson said:
For all intents and purposes, this house as originally built is indistinguishable from all other houses of ancient Capernaum. Its indoor living area is somewhat larger than usual, but overall it is about the same size as other houses. Its building materials are the usual ones. It was built with no more sophistication than the others in the region. In short, there is nothing to distinguish this house from its neighbors, except perhaps the events that transpired there and what happened to it later.- Editor, H. S. (2004; 2004). BAR 08:06 (Nov/Dec 1982). Biblical Archaeology Society[/b]
Beginning in the latter half of the first century AD, this house displayed markedly different characteristics than the other excavated houses. The rough walls were reworked with care and were covered with inscriptions; the floor was covered with a fine layer of plaster. Furthermore, almost no domestic ceramics are recovered, but lamps abound. One explanation suggested for this treatment is that the room was venerated as a religious gathering place, a domus-ecclesia or house church, for the Christian community. (Loffreda, 1984)
The 4th-century transformation
In this period, the sacra insula acquired a new appearance. First, a thick-walled, slightly trapezoidal enclosure was built surrounding the entire insula; its sides were 27-30 meters long. Made of plaster, they reached a height of 2.3 meters on the north side. It had two doors, one in the southwest corner and the other in the northeast corner.
Next, although there is evidence that the private houses remained in use after the transformation, the one particular room that had before been treated differently was profoundly altered and expanded. A central archway was added to support a roof and the north wall was strengthened with mortar. New pavement was installed, and the walls and floor were plastered. (Loffreda, 1974)
This structure remained until the middle of the fifth century when the sacra insula was dismantled and replaced with a larger basilica.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capernaum#The_House_of_Peter
 

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ialmisry said:
according to Muslim Tradition there was an icon of the Theotokos and Christ in the Ka'bah, which their prophet covered with his body while instructing his followers to destroy everything else). 
Sorry for the off topic question but where is this tradition from? Is it in the Hadith or some other local tradition?
 

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Andrew21091 said:
ialmisry said:
according to Muslim Tradition there was an icon of the Theotokos and Christ in the Ka'bah, which their prophet covered with his body while instructing his followers to destroy everything else). 
Sorry for the off topic question but where is this tradition from? Is it in the Hadith or some other local tradition?
Both.
 

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ialmisry said:
Andrew21091 said:
ialmisry said:
according to Muslim Tradition there was an icon of the Theotokos and Christ in the Ka'bah, which their prophet covered with his body while instructing his followers to destroy everything else). 
Sorry for the off topic question but where is this tradition from? Is it in the Hadith or some other local tradition?
Both.
Thanks.
 

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I came across this in St Irenaeus "Against the Heretics" bk II, cp XXVI, and I thought of Mr. Persson's eisogesis:

Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.
1. It is therefore better and more profitable to belong to the simple and unlettered class, and by means of love to attain to nearness to God, than, by imagining ourselves learned and skilful, to be found [among those who are] blasphemous against their own God, inasmuch as they conjure up another God as the Father. And for this reason Paul exclaimed, Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies: 1 Corinthians 8:1 not that he meant to inveigh against a true knowledge of God, for in that case he would have accused himself; but, because he knew that some, puffed up by the pretence of knowledge, fall away from the love of God, and imagine that they themselves are perfect, for this reason that they set forth an imperfect Creator, with the view of putting an end to the pride which they feel on account of knowledge of this kind, he says, Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. Now there can be no greater conceit than this, that any one should imagine he is better and more perfect than He who made and fashioned him, and imparted to him the breath of life, and commanded this very thing into existence. It is therefore better, as I have said, that one should have no knowledge whatever of any one reason why a single thing in creation has been made, but should believe in God, and continue in His love, than that, puffed up through knowledge of this kind, he should fall away from that love which is the life of man; and that he should search after no other knowledge except [the knowledge of] Jesus Christ the Son of God, who was crucified for us, than that by subtle questions and hair-splitting expressions he should fall into impiety.

2. For how would it be, if any one, gradually elated by attempts of the kind referred to, should, because the Lord said that even the hairs of your head are all numbered, Matthew 10:30 set about inquiring into the number of hairs on each one's head, and endeavour to search out the reason on account of which one man has so many, and another so many, since all have not an equal number, but many thousands upon thousands are to be found with still varying numbers, on this account that some have larger and others smaller heads, some have bushy heads of hair, others thin, and others scarcely any hair at all—and then those who imagine that they have discovered the number of the hairs, should endeavour to apply that for the commendation of their own sect which they have conceived? Or again, if any one should, because of this expression which occurs in the Gospel, Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? And not one of them falls to the ground without the will of your Father, Matthew 10:29 take occasion to reckon up the number of sparrows caught daily, whether over all the world or in some particular district, and to make inquiry as to the reason of so many having been captured yesterday, so many the day before, and so many again on this day, and should then join on the number of sparrows to his [particular] hypothesis, would he not in that case mislead himself altogether, and drive into absolute insanity those that agreed with him, since men are always eager in such matters to be thought to have discovered something more extraordinary than their masters?
[ Schaff has the interesting note: "Illustrated by the history of modern thought in Germany" the motherland of "higher criticism."]
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iii.xxvii.html

3. But if any one should ask us whether every number of all the things which have been made, and which are made, is known to God, and whether every one of these [numbers] has, according to His providence, received that special amount which it contains; and on our agreeing that such is the case, and acknowledging that not one of the things which have been, or are, or shall be made, escapes the knowledge of God, but that through His providence every one of them has obtained its nature, and rank, and number, and special quantity, and that nothing whatever either has been or is produced in vain or accidentally, but with exceeding suitability [to the purpose intended], and in the exercise of transcendent knowledge, and that it was an admirable and truly divine intellect which could both distinguish and bring forth the proper causes of such a system: if, [I say,] any one, on obtaining our adherence and consent to this, should proceed to reckon up the sand and pebbles of the earth, yea also the waves of the sea and the stars of heaven, and should endeavour to think out the causes of the number which he imagines himself to have discovered, would not his labour be in vain, and would not such a man be justly declared mad, and destitute of reason, by all possessed of common sense? And the more he occupied himself beyond others in questions of this kind, and the more he imagines himself to find out beyond others, styling them unskilful, ignorant, and animal beings, because they do not enter into his so useless labour, the more is he [in reality] insane, foolish, struck as it were with a thunderbolt, since indeed he does in no one point own himself inferior to God; but, by the knowledge which he imagines himself to have discovered, he changes God Himself, and exalts his own opinion above the greatness of the Creator.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103226.htm
 

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Alfred Persson said:
FormerReformer said:
It is all well and good to say "any doctrine that can't be found", but at the same time, what doctrines are these, Mr Persson?  Well before I came to the Orthodox Church I tested Her doctrines against the Scriptures, and I can tell you, Mr Persson, Her doctrines are the sound doctrines given Her by the Apostles, upheld by the saints throughout history.  Our Sacraments are the same now as they were in the time of the Apostles, our Church hierarchy has changed but little (priests [an English word derived from "presbyter"] serving under bishops were a necessity after the Church grew to such an extent that one Church could no longer house the whole of the believers in one location)  and is the same as in the time of St Athanasius, and there is no heresy to be found within Her.  We are the ones who defied Arius, Nestor, Apollinarius, Montanus, Marcion, and a host of Roman emperors be they pagan or heretic or apostate; we are the ones who gave you the Gospel and Epistles; we are the ones who hold fast to the traditions we were taught by word, while you wave the Epistles in our face claiming we neglect Truth (your own quote: stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.), though we also follow the Epistles to the letter. 

You give us some fake bogeyman when you talk to us of heresy, for there is no heresy that has not been challenged and defeated by the Orthodox Church.
Give me time, I'm just started to post here. As for your claim, its impossible you found icon veneration in the NT, it isn't there. Its an inference, one that never occurred to the early church,
I've posted the quotes from the NT and the exogesis of the Fathers thereof. I won't repeat myself this time.

hundreds of years later,
It is held that the Apostle John fell asleep in 100, and the Apostles Peter and Paul in the 60's. The Apostle martyred, St. James, was put to Herod's sword in 44. 

The House Church of Dura Europas, in the backwater of the Roman Empire, covered in icons, can be precisely dated to the 230's
ialmisry said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dura-Europos#The_house_church

So at most, even if you talk your word as true ( ::)), there is at most 184 years and really only 130 years from the last Apostle to the earliest physical icons we have presently that can be dated precisely.  That is not to talk about the ones that cannot be dated precisely and the ones that may one day be found-Dura Europas was only found in 1920. Before that Protestants used to wax eloquent on the blank walls of the ancient Churches.  If we include the ones that cannot be dated precisely, we have a century before Constantine packed full of icons we still physically have.  Oh, well.

So you don't even have a second century, by any stretch, to say "hundreds of years later," and that's only if I give you perceived silence, ambiguous cases, etc.

From then on the archeological record is quite full, even if the literary sources are not: icons are not mentioned so much.  So your iconoclasts, if they had existed, would have had half a millenium to do their prooftexting and inferences for this heresy. Yet no, no dogmatic works on this untill the edict of 726-30.  And we have plenty of documents from those centuries in which we have nothing but silence from your imaginary iconoclasts, in contrast to the mere fragments we have on any aspect of the Faith from the first century after the Apostles.

people started thinking about images, not the church militant that conquered the Roman empire.
The Holy Icons, both by archeology and sources, are well documented before the Church conquered the Roman Empire, the fulfilment of the sign of Jonah on the political plane: Ninevah had converted.
 

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What is Perssonism's teaching on icons?  Easy,get rid of the icons,and build new ones,formed by one's reason,intellect,and imagination,all by using Scripture alone!!! And my, don't the myriads and myriads of images abound!!!
 
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