Petre Tutea

[Symeon77]

I would like to know how he is regarded- if he is known at all- by the Romanian faithful. Unfortunately, there are scant resources in English. I only know of Popescu's biography, which I will have to revisit, as I have no recollection of how this question is addressed in the book.

I know the question is broad, but I beg your indulgence.

Begging help from Romanians or Romanian speakers, in particular.

 

[Romaios]

Three volumes of his appeared in Romanian under the title: Omul. Tratat de antropologie creștină (Man - A Treatise of Christian Anthropology). Otherwise, there are more collections of his sayings on various topics. The son of a village priest from Moldova, he got a PhD in law and political economy from the Alexander Humboldt University of Berlin.

He belonged to the "golden generation" of Romanian Legionary (right-wing nationalist) intellectuals (Noica, Eliade, Cioran, Vulcănescu) of the interwar period and was a disciple of Nae Ionescu. He was sentenced to 5 years of prison and 13 of forced labor by the Communists, for having had a position in the Ministry of Economy in the Legionary government. He stayed in touch with Cioran, whom he would chide for his atheism. After his release from prison, he lived in great poverty - unknown, unpublished, in a miserable 1 room flat, eating at a cantine. 

He survived the Communists and in 1991, at 89, he was interviewed on his deathbed - some videos still exist. He's best known for such pithy sayings as he spoke in his last years:

"Without God, man is but a poor rational and talking animal, coming from nowhere and heading for nowhere."

"An elderly babushka crossing herself in a maize field is wiser than any intellectual."

"Communists also have masters and slaves, but they are hypocrites, because they know that the equality of men can exist nowhere; they are perfect crooks, for they assert that the essence of communism is the real equality of people. This premise of absolute equality is null."

"Communists are cowherds. They view people as cowherds view their cattle. A Communist is a non-human (neom: inhumane). How can you conceive absolute equality - for these are the terms one must think in, in order to be a true Communist - when, as soon as you step outside, you meet inequality in the street?"

"Communism is the biggest pottering about (idle affair: aflare-în-treabă) in the history of mankind. It is continual crime."
 
"All leftisms are everyday violations of the laws of God."  

"No economy can be done in Communism and by Communists. These guys are incapable of even running the affairs of a village: they confuse everybody and everything, get the wells stuck, etc. Communism is a social cancer - it lays waste any place it infests."

"No liberty can be conceived without property. Every man must be considered an individual hypothetical proprietor, even if he owns nothing."

"I believe the optimal form of government to be a realized conservative leadership, but in a democratic climate. A conservative traditionalist nationalist party, in a liberal environment. That is to say, conservatism shouldn't be turned into an instrument of tyranny, because I cannot accept to oppress any cell of a human in the name of an idea, no matter if it's a supreme, rosy ideal."  

"I hover between God and the nation (kin) I am part of. Besides these two absolutes, I see nothing significant between heaven and earth."  

"The circle is vicious: coming out of a crazy dictatorship, with the economy eaten up by communist cancer, we yearn (are hungry) for democracy, like the ripe girl longs for marriage. But such a ruined economy cannot reestablish itself outside an authoritarian frame of order, which - unfortunately - democracy cannot offer. We must reach liberalism, but not via social democracy, which is the skimmed milk of Communism... With us, however, an authoritarian solution doesn't seem possible for the time being, so this is why I fear that the crisis will be prolonged for as long as the lazy drunkenness of liberty and rights with no responsibilities last. I have no trust in contemporary politicians, nor in the good-will of the West, but I believe in God and the conservation instinct of the Romanian people."    

"Big conservatives are not reactionaries, for they have the eternal laws of God on their side."

"I am a liberal economist. Behind liberalism lies the tyranny of the Middle Ages, ahead of it - red chaos."

"The indisputable coordinates (of socio-economical reform) are: private property, private initiative and a lawful order so objectively defined that social subjects can affirm their interests under free cooperation. That is to say, the laws of a modern country need to be so finely tuned that the presence of the norms that govern the City should not be felt. The citizen must be protected by the norms and laws of social life without feeling their coercive presence."

"Nothing can replace Christianity: not even ancient, pre-christian culture. I believe that the summit of Europe is not to be found in Athens, but in the Middle Ages, when God walked from house to house. I define the brilliance of historical ages by their religious genius, not by political affairs."

"About Christianity, Bergson says we breathe it. It has the materiality of air. It's like air. We are Christians even without wanting it. Even when we're atheists, we're still Christian, because we breathe Christianity like air."

After the elections of 1990, won by former Communism, he said: "There can be no bigger fool than me! Thirteen years of prison for a people of idiots - only I was capable of such a thing..."

 

[Romaios]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o-0ciKkdF4


Petre Tutea Christian Verticality
mk

 

[Romaios]

Țuțea and Cioran

 

[Symeon77]

Three volumes of his appeared in Romanian under the title: Omul. Tratat de antropologie creștină (Man - A Treatise of Christian Anthropology). Otherwise, there are more collections of his sayings on various topics. The son of a village priest from Moldova, he got a PhD in law and political economy from the Alexander Humboldt University of Berlin.

He belonged to the "golden generation" of Romanian Legionary (right-wing nationalist) intellectuals (Noica, Eliade, Cioran, Vulcănescu) of the interwar period and was a disciple of Nae Ionescu. He was sentenced to 5 years of prison and 13 of forced labor by the Communists, for having had a position in the Ministry of Economy in the Legionary government. He stayed in touch with Cioran, whom he would chide for his atheism. After his release from prison, he lived in great poverty - unknown, unpublished, in a miserable 1 room flat, eating at a cantine.   

He survived the Communists and in 1991, at 89, he was interviewed on his deathbed - some videos still exist. He's best known for such pithy sayings as he spoke in his last years:

"Without God, man is but a poor rational and talking animal, coming from nowhere and heading for nowhere."

"An elderly babushka crossing herself in a maize field is wiser than any intellectual."

"Communists also have masters and slaves, but they are hypocrites, because they know that the equality of men can exist nowhere; they are perfect crooks, for they assert that the essence of communism is the real equality of people. This premise of absolute equality is null."

"Communists are cowherds. They view people as cowherds view their cattle. A Communist is a non-human (neom: inhumane). How can you conceive absolute equality - for these are the terms one must think in, in order to be a true Communist - when, as soon as you step outside, you meet inequality in the street?"

"Communism is the biggest pottering about (idle affair: aflare-în-treabă) in the history of mankind. It is continual crime."
 
"All leftisms are everyday violations of the laws of God."  

"No economy can be done in Communism and by Communists. These guys are incapable of even running the affairs of a village: they confuse everybody and everything, get the wells stuck, etc. Communism is a social cancer - it lays waste any place it infests."

"No liberty can be conceived without property. Every man must be considered an individual hypothetical proprietor, even if he owns nothing."

"I believe the optimal form of government to be a realized conservative leadership, but in a democratic climate. A conservative traditionalist nationalist party, in a liberal environment. That is to say, conservatism shouldn't be turned into an instrument of tyranny, because I cannot accept to oppress any cell of a human in the name of an idea, no matter if it's a supreme, rosy ideal."  

"I hover between God and the nation (kin) I am part of. Besides these two absolutes, I see nothing significant between heaven and earth."  

"The circle is vicious: coming out of a crazy dictatorship, with the economy eaten up by communist cancer, we yearn (are hungry) for democracy, like the ripe girl longs for marriage. But such a ruined economy cannot reestablish itself outside an authoritarian frame of order, which - unfortunately - democracy cannot offer. We must reach liberalism, but not via social democracy, which is the skimmed milk of Communism... With us, however, an authoritarian solution doesn't seem possible for the time being, so this is why I fear that the crisis will be prolonged for as long as the lazy drunkenness of liberty and rights with no responsibilities last. I have no trust in contemporary politicians, nor in the good-will of the West, but I believe in God and the conservation instinct of the Romanian people."    

"Big conservatives are not reactionaries, for they have the eternal laws of God on their side."

"I am a liberal economist. Behind liberalism lies the tyranny of the Middle Ages, ahead of it - red chaos."

"The indisputable coordinates (of socio-economical reform) are: private property, private initiative and a lawful order so objectively defined that social subjects can affirm their interests under free cooperation. That is to say, the laws of a modern country need to be so finely tuned that the presence of the norms that govern the City should not be felt. The citizen must be protected by the norms and laws of social life without feeling their coercive presence."

"Nothing can replace Christianity: not even ancient, pre-christian culture. I believe that the summit of Europe is not to be found in Athens, but in the Middle Ages, when God walked from house to house. I define the brilliance of historical ages by their religious genius, not by political affairs."

"About Christianity, Bergson says we breathe it. It has the materiality of air. It's like air. We are Christians even without wanting it. Even when we're atheists, we're still Christian, because we breathe Christianity like air."

After the elections of 1990, won by former Communism, he said: "There can be no bigger fool than me! Thirteen years of prison for a people of idiots - only I was capable of such a thing..."

Thank you Romaios!

I am trudging my way back through Alexandru Popescu's 'Petre Tutea: between Sacrifice and Suicide", so much of his biography and reflections are being refreshed for me (years of substance abuse prior to my conversion have degraded my memory, alas!)

But thank you for your translations (?) and the links. I had watched those videos recently (the only subtitled ones available, it appears, which is a shame.) This is what prompted me to start thinking of him again.

The question of his influence and his regard by the faithful and the Romanian populace in general is only touched upon briefly and in scattered places in the bio., so I was hoping to for a bit of elaboration.

Tutea's Posthumous Reputation

Revered by some as a saint, and dismissed by others as prolix, obscure, and idiosyncratic, some seek to use Tutea as an icon for the 'new right'. Tutea the politician was, however, rehabilitated by the Supreme Court of Justice in 1997. Since his death, his works have been widely published [...]
-Popescu, 2004

In light of the above ('[r]evered by some as a saint [...]' I wondered if there was any movement towards his  canonization? Or simply: do people pray to him? and has there been any evidence of his intercession? Is he simply too polarizing a figure, due to his political involvement?

Also, are there any notable contemporary 'disciples', as it were, who are public figures (authors, theologians, politicians, etc.?)

 

[augustin717]

^Praying to Tutea would be like praying to Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly to give some context to this. Mutatis mutandis of course. Or Glenn Beck.

 

[Symeon77]

Some poignant reflections from Tutea, pertaining to epistemology:

We are in a world beset by problems, and endless questions are raised by need, wonder, curiousity, and ever-deceiving causality. In this world we can describe, by simplification, two fundamental human types: the believer , who by personal experience accepts the impossible in the very depths of his soul, and the seeker, the inquiring type who questions himself and others, muddying the waters of both the inner and outer world, increasingly absorbed in endless experimentation, under the dialectical sign of non-fulfilment.

I believe that the only science which includes everything is theology. That science which has as its object divinity and everything created thereby is the only science which embraces everything since, from a Christian point of view, the creator animates creation from its very origins, despite its corruption by sin, to its ultimate end, the Saviour bringing the whole universe to perfection

A human being without revelation cannot say much... Explanation is bound up with transcendence. Where there is no revelation - that is where God does not grant you the grace [favoare] of knowing who you are, why you are, and to what end you are - there can never be an answer

God cannot be conceived or seen from below, but only in divine self-revelation: theophany, theandry, and trinity. Christian moments: creation ex nihilo, original sin, baptism... Last judgement, damnation, and salvation. Not thirst for origins, nor human ascent, but eschatological correction.

For Christians, the unifying principle is love, which is identified with the Godhead... Love opens a window onto the Absolute and does not stop at its threshold as immanentist approaches do. Therein are united both worlds, this world and the world to come, the perishable and the imperishable. Through this miraculous union, the believer escapes the jaws of absolute death [which is itself but the form of the atheist's mind].

When the human being breaks the triangle God-nature-humanity, he remains epistemologically and ethically alone, a rational animal in the world of the senses, questioning, erring, sick and dying, coming from nowhere, going nowhere, moving without understanding between the beginning and the end of this world (which are beyond his powers of knowledge) and a world of assumptions.

 

[Symeon77]

^Praying to Tutea would be like praying to Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly to give some context to this. Mutatis mutandis of course. Or Glenn Beck.

That is your opinion. Marx has proven to be a poor mediator for humanity as well, it would seem.

 

[augustin717]

^Praying to Tutea would be like praying to Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly to give some context to this. Mutatis mutandis of course. Or Glenn Beck.

That is your opinion. Marx has proven to be a poor mediator for humanity as well, it would seem.

One needs not be a Marxist or even bring Marx into a discussion to pretty much dismiss Tutea's antics.

 

[augustin717]

I see no originality in what I read by him, not even originality as a "conservative" or "reactionary" thinker. You can argue that Maisrte or Burke had something new to say . But Tutea mostly peddles bons mots otherwise dismissing all questions on the basis of a fideist certainty. You can say that a little inner voice tells him he's right. So he doesn't even deign to engage those that doubt he is.

 

[Symeon77]

Very well. I had hoped this thread would not be diverted into strictly political discussion. I claim responsibility for my impertinence. Please refer to OP for the intent if this thread. I am concerned for factual information.

 

[Romaios]

I see no originality in what I read by him, not even originality as a "conservative" or "reactionary" thinker. You can argue that Maisrte or Burke had something new to say . But Tutea mostly peddles bons mots otherwise dismissing all questions on the basis of a fideist certainty. You can say that a little inner voice tells him he's right. So he doesn't even deign to engage those that doubt he is.

One could argue that Țuțea wasn't even trying to be original. He didn't have to. What's savoury about him is the conviction he says things with and his rhetoric. And the fact that he has a lifetime of painful experience to back it all up.  

Alas, the "having-something-new-to-say" criterion would dismiss all but a handful of the leftist intelligentsia as redundant and futile, by the way.  

 

[Romaios]

The question of his influence and his regard by the faithful and the Romanian populace in general is only touched upon briefly and in scattered places in the bio., so I was hoping to for a bit of elaboration.

Tutea's Posthumous Reputation

Revered by some as a saint, and dismissed by others as prolix, obscure, and idiosyncratic, some seek to use Tutea as an icon for the 'new right'. Tutea the politician was, however, rehabilitated by the Supreme Court of Justice in 1997. Since his death, his works have been widely published [...]
-Popescu, 2004

In light of the above ('[r]evered by some as a saint [...]' I wondered if there was any movement towards his  canonization? Or simply: do people pray to him? and has there been any evidence of his intercession? Is he simply too polarizing a figure, due to his political involvement?

Also, are there any notable contemporary 'disciples', as it were, who are public figures (authors, theologians, politicians, etc.?)

There are many Saints and Martyrs that died or suffered unimaginable torture and persecution under the Communists because of their faith. So far, no steps have been taken by the Romanian Church to canonize any of them, not even Valeriu Gafencu, Sandu Tudor or Fr. Ilarion Felea, despite their spontaneous veneration by the faithful. A shrine has been built for them at Aiud. There are (mostly anonymous) relics.

I wouldn't say, though, that Țuțea is revered as a Saint. He is revered, nonetheless. I haven't heard of anybody praying to him.

He didn't leave behind any disciples, because he was practically unknown/ignored until the last one or two years of his life. 

 

[augustin717]

I see no originality in what I read by him, not even originality as a "conservative" or "reactionary" thinker. You can argue that Maisrte or Burke had something new to say . But Tutea mostly peddles bons mots otherwise dismissing all questions on the basis of a fideist certainty. You can say that a little inner voice tells him he's right. So he doesn't even deign to engage those that doubt he is.

One could argue that Țuțea wasn't even trying to be original. He didn't have to. What's savoury about him is the conviction he says things with and his rhetoric. And the fact that he has a lifetime of painful experience to back it all up.  

Alas, the "having-something-new-to-say" criterion would dismiss all but a handful of the leftist intelligentsia as redundant and futile, by the way.  

I know it's part of the reactionary phronema to always jump at the left. No need to illustrate such a banal observation over and over again.
You can compare Tutea with more robust reactionary thinkers and I doubt he'd make the cut. Within this context I was talking about originality.
As many see him, he was merely an aphorist, even there
It's not sure he was so great. I think he said "to be a legionnaire is to be an absolute Romanian" whatever the heck that means.

 

[Romaios]

I know it's part of the reactionary phronema to always jump at the left. No need to illustrate such a banal observation over and over again.
You can compare Tutea with more robust reactionary thinkers and I doubt he'd make the cut. Within this context I was talking about originality.
As many see him, he was merely an aphorist, even there
It's not sure he was so great. I think he said "to be a legionnaire is to be an absolute Romanian" whatever the heck that means.

I don't think anybody on this forum expected you to react any differently on such a thread. It's you who jumped at the chance to "jump at" the right and belittle one of its exponents. All too predictable!

There's no point in reacting to your reactions here, so I'll do my best to henceforth abstain from it. I doubt that there is any right wing/"reactionary" thinker you'd have any sincere appreciation or even sympathy for, especially if he was Romanian. Nobody expects you to rise above your leftist biases and prejudices and be impartial. There is a lot they compel you to turn a blind eye on, however. 

 

[augustin717]

Just don't make it sound like it was me following you all over the Internet . You know that's not the case.

 

[Romaios]

Just don't make it sound like it was me following you all over the Internet . You know that's not the case.

"All over the internet" = this forum & fb, or did we interact anywhere else?

I'm realizing more and more what a poor pastime this has been.

My sincere apologies. 

 

[Symeon77]

The question of his influence and his regard by the faithful and the Romanian populace in general is only touched upon briefly and in scattered places in the bio., so I was hoping to for a bit of elaboration.

Tutea's Posthumous Reputation

Revered by some as a saint, and dismissed by others as prolix, obscure, and idiosyncratic, some seek to use Tutea as an icon for the 'new right'. Tutea the politician was, however, rehabilitated by the Supreme Court of Justice in 1997. Since his death, his works have been widely published [...]
-Popescu, 2004

In light of the above ('[r]evered by some as a saint [...]' I wondered if there was any movement towards his  canonization? Or simply: do people pray to him? and has there been any evidence of his intercession? Is he simply too polarizing a figure, due to his political involvement?

Also, are there any notable contemporary 'disciples', as it were, who are public figures (authors, theologians, politicians, etc.?)

There are many Saints and Martyrs that died or suffered unimaginable torture and persecution under the Communists because of their faith. So far, no steps have been taken by the Romanian Church to canonize any of them, not even Valeriu Gafencu, Sandu Tudor or Fr. Ilarion Felea, despite their spontaneous veneration by the faithful. A shrine has been built for them at Aiud. There are (mostly anonymous) relics.

I wouldn't say, though, that Țuțea is revered as a Saint. He is revered, nonetheless. I haven't heard of anybody praying to him.

He didn't leave behind any disciples, because he was practically unknown/ignored until the last one or two years of his life. 

Thank you Romaios. This addressed my original intention. If ever he were venerated, I am sure he would prefer that it be in 'anonymous' fashion, as one among many faithful confessors. The passage from Popescu was ambiguous, but I think you have helped to clarify.

 

[augustin717]

Just don't make it sound like it was me following you all over the Internet . You know that's not the case.

"All over the internet" = this forum & fb, or did we interact anywhere else?

I'm realizing more and more what a poor pastime this has been.

My sincere apologies.  

I do not know where you write did not know who Romaios was did not follow you, this is the only place I currently write at, I haven't been correcting you . Do I need to say more?
It's one think to whatever be a jack ass to anonymous people on the Internet, another thing to people you know personally,

 

[Romaios]

I do not know where you write did not know who Romaios was did not follow you, this is the only place I currently write at, I haven't been correcting you . Do I need to say more?
It's one think to whatever be a jack ass to anonymous people on the Internet, another thing to people you know personally,

Fwiw, when I joined this forum 5 years ago, I had no idea who augustin717 was either.

If anything, the internet reveals how little we actually know about anyone we once thought to know "personally". Πανταχόθεν μυστἠρια! 

 

[augustin717]

The fact remains you kept following me in a way I found at times disturbing at times merely amusing.

 

[Romaios]

The fact remains you kept following me in a way I found at times disturbing at times merely amusing.

That makes me 'a jack ass or whatever'. I'll have to live with it.

 

[augustin717]

You'll be fine.

 

[Romaios]

You'll be fine.

I know I will, and so will you: "All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well".