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Apples

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FatherGiryus said:
There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to begin...

Michał Kalina said:
GREATEST ICONOSTASIS EVER!

Thank you, Father. I was berated for disliking something like this in another thread. I am glad that at least one priest would agree with me.
 

W.A.Mozart

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I dont think he can because there isnt a single dogmatic or ecclesial reason why this kind of iconostasis should be proclaimed a heresy, new age or anything similar. However, chances that f. Giryus will elaborate are slim. In the words of Alf -slim as out of town-
 

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Well, from a historical perspective, the most ancient part of the 'screen' has been utterly done away with: the curtain.  It is the one thing that all the ancient churches share, from the Armenians to the Copts to the Orthodox.  I was taught that the icon screen arose in front of the more ancient curtain, and eventually the curtain, rather than going wall-to-wall, became an 'element' of the iconostasis (for practical purposes) not unlike how the white undergarment has been reduced to a plastic strip in the modern 'clergy shirt.'

That loss of historical connection, and its connection to the Old Testament, has been severed here in this picture.  The continuum has been obliterated, yet to forget the Tabernacle and the Temple means to forget Christ who was present there.

This is a bad habit: to make decisions for ourselves and forget those who have come before us and those who will come afterwards.  Removing the curtain means depriving future generations of this as well, and who are we to take away their inheritance.

It is an epidemic.  The iconostasis in my parish also has no curtain because of a similar decision (they voted to have it this way so they could 'see better'), but now the children have no idea what a curtain even is.  They are losing the concept of having to listen... everything is a 'video.'  Because of the design, putting a curtain in means a lot of woodworking will have to be done that will cost money in a time when our roof is falling apart and people are feeling the pinch of the economy.  It will take many years to recover from this mistake.

This type of departure from tradition will also cause those who become accustomed to these kinds of innovations to be less likely to be comfortable in other churches.  The more innovative a parish is in terms of worship and design, the less likely those 'raised' there will integrate into other parishes if they move.  I have run into this countless times, both from immigrants ("It's just not like home.") and from converts ("It's just not like home.").

Standardization means that anyone can come and feel at home.  Too often, we have an impulse to make the parish 'our place' to do what we want and forget our connection to the rest of the Church and even the world.


Michał Kalina said:
FatherGiryus said:
There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to begin...
Can you elaborate?
 

FatherGiryus

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Don't call me 'Slim,' call me 'Flaco.'

W.A.Mozart said:
I dont think he can because there isnt a single dogmatic or ecclesial reason why this kind of iconostasis should be proclaimed a heresy, new age or anything similar. However, chances that f. Giryus will elaborate are slim. In the words of Alf -slim as out of town-
 

LizaSymonenko

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FatherGiryus said:
Well, from a historical perspective, the most ancient part of the 'screen' has been utterly done away with: the curtain.  It is the one thing that all the ancient churches share, from the Armenians to the Copts to the Orthodox.  I was taught that the icon screen arose in front of the more ancient curtain, and eventually the curtain, rather than going wall-to-wall, became an 'element' of the iconostasis (for practical purposes) not unlike how the white undergarment has been reduced to a plastic strip in the modern 'clergy shirt.'

That loss of historical connection, and its connection to the Old Testament, has been severed here in this picture.  The continuum has been obliterated, yet to forget the Tabernacle and the Temple means to forget Christ who was present there.

This is a bad habit: to make decisions for ourselves and forget those who have come before us and those who will come afterwards.  Removing the curtain means depriving future generations of this as well, and who are we to take away their inheritance.

It is an epidemic.  The iconostasis in my parish also has no curtain because of a similar decision (they voted to have it this way so they could 'see better'), but now the children have no idea what a curtain even is.  They are losing the concept of having to listen... everything is a 'video.'  Because of the design, putting a curtain in means a lot of woodworking will have to be done that will cost money in a time when our roof is falling apart and people are feeling the pinch of the economy.  It will take many years to recover from this mistake.

This type of departure from tradition will also cause those who become accustomed to these kinds of innovations to be less likely to be comfortable in other churches.  The more innovative a parish is in terms of worship and design, the less likely those 'raised' there will integrate into other parishes if they move.  I have run into this countless times, both from immigrants ("It's just not like home.") and from converts ("It's just not like home.").

Standardization means that anyone can come and feel at home.  Too often, we have an impulse to make the parish 'our place' to do what we want and forget our connection to the rest of the Church and even the world.


Michał Kalina said:
FatherGiryus said:
There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to begin...
Can you elaborate?
Well put, Father.

We need to preserve Tradition.

 

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Regarding changes such as in the iconostasis.

People used to joing something because they liked it and wanted to be part of it.

Today they join it because they have in mind how they have so much to improve it and make it modern, that is, precisely because they don't like what already exists and want to change it. It's pretty much like getting married not liking much about the person but thinking on how much better the person will be after you're done with him/her in some years. And with more or less the same consequences: either you destroy the person trying to force him/her to be something he/she is not, or you get so dissappointed that you leave.
 

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To tag onto what you'd said, there is another 'reason' for converting: people can use parts of the Tradition to justify their 'pre-existing conditions.'  This is fairly common out here.

I always get worried when I start hearing, "Oh, yes, I have always believed that!"  They find the Church agreeing with them, rather than the other way around.  I try to warn them that for every agreement there will be another or even several disagreements and you will have to make a choice.  The problem is that people can become so enamored with what they like (just like dating, I'm afraid) that they forget to examine the 'disagreements.'

Then we have 'selective traditionalism' which I think can be seen in this 'iconostasis.'  We like the colorful pictures, but don't like the less colorful stuff that 'blocks the view.'  So, away goes part while another stays.

Don't want aa curtain?  Then go Western and you can have an older tradition without it (there altar curtains were torn down by the 6th c. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rood_screen#Early_medieval_altar_screens_and_chancel_screens).

Frankly, I find most of these modern 'reforms' simply in bad taste.  There is nothing beautiful about the stick 'iconostasis'.  It looks fabricated and cheap.  Everywhere I have seen these 'peek-a-boo' things put up, I've seen nothing particularly artistic, create, or even beautiful.  Wrought iron is cold and forbidding.  Industrialized.  Dead.  A friend of mine servings in a church with a wrought-iron iconostasis, and it looks more forbidding than a prison fence-line... all in the name of being more 'open.'

Yuk.


Fabio Leite said:
Regarding changes such as in the iconostasis.

People used to joing something because they liked it and wanted to be part of it.

Today they join it because they have in mind how they have so much to improve it and make it modern, that is, precisely because they don't like what already exists and want to change it. It's pretty much like getting married not liking much about the person but thinking on how much better the person will be after you're done with him/her in some years. And with more or less the same consequences: either you destroy the person trying to force him/her to be something he/she is not, or you get so dissappointed that you leave.
 

sheenj

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Fabio Leite said:
Regarding changes such as in the iconostasis.

People used to joing something because they liked it and wanted to be part of it.

Today they join it because they have in mind how they have so much to improve it and make it modern, that is, precisely because they don't like what already exists and want to change it.
How about you speak for yourself and stop putting words in other people's mouths?
 
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