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LivenotoneviL

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Volnutt said:
Given that Elder Joseph the Hesychast was actually baptized "Franciscos" and there's at least one Orthodox Church from the 13th Century with an icon of him of the wall, and Fr. Lazarus Moore's story of him appearing in a dream to a French woman and telling her to go Orthodox--Francis at least seems to be a bit of a grey area.

That doesn't mean he should be canonized by the Orthodox Church or that everything he said or that has been said in his name is good, but it is food for thought.
He is a grey area - and I don't know about his sanctity. But your argument is exactly one of my concerns for the "Orthodoxy" of the San Damino cross, with the person of Francis of Assisi, who is permanently fixed with such art.

He was holier person than I am; spending his whole life giving to the poor, rebuilding churches, owning no property, and literally trying to civilly convert the Sultan to Catholicism, risking death, is something that is more God-like than what I have ever done.

Woooooow, you're really drinking deep of the cup of convertitis, aren't you?
I didn't know that was an "inflammation" (as adding the word "itis" doesn't make something a disease), nor what you mean by that. You mean the phase of "ultra conservatism" and extent idealism that plagues many interested pre-converts who love the Church?

Yeah probably. At least I don't think the Church has fallen into apostasy over a dang calendar.
 

Volnutt

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I've been just as fickle and insulting as you are, still am in a lot of ways. I'm also not nearly as settled in beliefs as you seem to be at this moment (hence my postbit). And I feel like the "tough love" from Mor and others here has really helped me. Personally, I don't really see him being unloving towards you. In fact, compared to the way he's treated me over the years (almost entirely, if not entirely, deserved as I can see now), you seem to have gotten off pretty easy.

And I see no evidence that he wants you to burn in Hell, either. He's trying to help you. Running yourself ragged like this is a good ticket to either ending up as a burnt out, angry atheist or hanging yourself. I outta know, I've been close to both outcomes.
 

LivenotoneviL

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Volnutt said:
I've been just as fickle and insulting as you are, still am in a lot of ways. I'm also not nearly as settled in beliefs as you seem to be at this moment (hence my postbit). And I feel like the "tough love" from Mor and others here has really helped me. Personally, I don't really see him being unloving towards you. In fact, compared to the way he's treated me over the years (almost entirely, if not entirely, deserved as I can see now), you seem to have gotten off pretty easy.

And I see no evidence that he wants you to burn in Hell, either. He's trying to help you. Running yourself ragged like this is a good ticket to either ending up as a burnt out, angry atheist or hanging yourself. I outta know, I've been close to both outcomes.
I was more or less talking to Antonis rather than Mor with that one post, positing on his views of me.

And the views of that other melodramatic post came from me desiring God while I was burnt out.
 

Volnutt

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LivenotoneviL said:
Volnutt said:
Given that Elder Joseph the Hesychast was actually baptized "Franciscos" and there's at least one Orthodox Church from the 13th Century with an icon of him of the wall, and Fr. Lazarus Moore's story of him appearing in a dream to a French woman and telling her to go Orthodox--Francis at least seems to be a bit of a grey area.

That doesn't mean he should be canonized by the Orthodox Church or that everything he said or that has been said in his name is good, but it is food for thought.
He is a grey area - and I don't know about his sanctity. But your argument is exactly one of my concerns for the "Orthodoxy" of the San Damino cross, with the person of Francis of Assisi, who is permanently fixed with such art.
Why? Someone can use Origen's Haxapla or Tatian's Diatesseron or Eusebius's history and yet not consider them Saints nor even really give them personally a second thought.

LivenotoneviL said:
Volnutt said:
Woooooow, you're really drinking deep of the cup of convertitis, aren't you?
I didn't know that was an "inflammation" (as adding the word "itis" doesn't make something a disease), nor what you mean by that. You mean the phase of "ultra conservatism" and extent idealism that plagues many interested pre-converts who love the Church?
They love their own vision of the Church, at least.

LivenotoneviL said:
Yeah probably. At least I don't think the Church has fallen into apostasy over a dang calendar.
Not yet you don't.
 

Volnutt

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LivenotoneviL said:
Volnutt said:
I've been just as fickle and insulting as you are, still am in a lot of ways. I'm also not nearly as settled in beliefs as you seem to be at this moment (hence my postbit). And I feel like the "tough love" from Mor and others here has really helped me. Personally, I don't really see him being unloving towards you. In fact, compared to the way he's treated me over the years (almost entirely, if not entirely, deserved as I can see now), you seem to have gotten off pretty easy.

And I see no evidence that he wants you to burn in Hell, either. He's trying to help you. Running yourself ragged like this is a good ticket to either ending up as a burnt out, angry atheist or hanging yourself. I outta know, I've been close to both outcomes.
I was more or less talking to Antonis rather than Mor with that one post, positing on his views of me.
I'm sure all I said is true of Antonis as well.

LivenotoneviL said:
And the views of that other melodramatic post came from me desiring God while I was burnt out.
And if something hadn't happened that you could interpret as a miraculous sign, what then? Maybe this chasing after experiences and obsessing and hand wringing over theological minutiae was one of the reasons you got so burnt out in the first place?
 

Mor Ephrem

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LivenotoneviL said:
Mor Ephrem said:
LivenotoneviL said:
I didn't know that sharing a dissident opinion from another individual equivocates to rage and anger, such that I would need to be quote on quote "calmed down."
I said nothing about "rage and anger".  There are more than two reasons why someone might need to calm down (e.g., "working oneself up into a frenzy over things about which one lacks sufficient knowledge and insight").
Then maybe you ought to try to attack my argument than tell me I'm not qualified to give an opinion.
Why would I want to attack your argument?  I don't think you should be arguing anything in the first place.  You need to unlearn a lot before you can learn.  That's not a generic statement.  You in particular need to unlearn a lot before you can learn.   
 

LivenotoneviL

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Volnutt said:
LivenotoneviL said:
Volnutt said:
Given that Elder Joseph the Hesychast was actually baptized "Franciscos" and there's at least one Orthodox Church from the 13th Century with an icon of him of the wall, and Fr. Lazarus Moore's story of him appearing in a dream to a French woman and telling her to go Orthodox--Francis at least seems to be a bit of a grey area.

That doesn't mean he should be canonized by the Orthodox Church or that everything he said or that has been said in his name is good, but it is food for thought.
He is a grey area - and I don't know about his sanctity. But your argument is exactly one of my concerns for the "Orthodoxy" of the San Damino cross, with the person of Francis of Assisi, who is permanently fixed with such art.
Why? Someone can use Origen's Haxapla or Tatian's Diatesseron or Eusebius's history and yet not consider them Saints nor even really give them personally a second thought.
May I ask what part of my opinion you disagreed with?
LivenotoneviL said:
Volnutt said:
Woooooow, you're really drinking deep of the cup of convertitis, aren't you?
I didn't know that was an "inflammation" (as adding the word "itis" doesn't make something a disease), nor what you mean by that. You mean the phase of "ultra conservatism" and extent idealism that plagues many interested pre-converts who love the Church?
They love their own vision of the Church, at least.
Is it possible to NOT have one's own vision of the Church, and to live in a state of objectively following the Truth while not having any opinions on anything? I didn't realize that the Orthodox Tradition was so legalistic!

To suggest that you don't have a vision of the Church and you are purely following objectivity is dishonest, especially when Saint Mark of Ephesus, Saint Photios, and Saint Isidore of Yuriev were all extremely hostile both in speech and in writing against the Roman Church in their theology.
 

LivenotoneviL

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Mor Ephrem said:
LivenotoneviL said:
Mor Ephrem said:
LivenotoneviL said:
I didn't know that sharing a dissident opinion from another individual equivocates to rage and anger, such that I would need to be quote on quote "calmed down."
I said nothing about "rage and anger".  There are more than two reasons why someone might need to calm down (e.g., "working oneself up into a frenzy over things about which one lacks sufficient knowledge and insight").
Then maybe you ought to try to attack my argument than tell me I'm not qualified to give an opinion.
Why would I want to attack your argument?  I don't think you should be arguing anything in the first place.  You need to unlearn a lot before you can learn.  That's not a generic statement.  You in particular need to unlearn a lot before you can learn. 
What exactly did I say that is heterodox or that I need to "unlearn?" Any kind of feedback is fine.
And is anybody here - even if they be a priest - qualified to really give an opinion? Or are we really immature at various levels, progressing towards maturity. I for one will admit that I am very immature, both literally and in my knowledge - but isn't discussion how I learn?

My opinions on the refugee crisis have drastically changed when I heard opinions that I disagreed with and debated with said people (for the better, as a Christian ought to believe).

Then again, maybe you see me as some kind of Pius XIII figure.


 

Antonis

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Bro, I’m going to be really frank. You’re not even a neophyte, not even a catechumen. For the record, neophytes are forbidden from teaching. Mor Ephrem has an M. Div. from an Orthodox seminary. Maybe have a little respect and cool it.
 

LivenotoneviL

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Antonis said:
Bro, I’m going to be really frank. You’re not even a neophyte, not even a catechumen. For the record, neophytes are forbidden from teaching. Mor Ephrem has an M. Div. from an Orthodox seminary. Maybe have a little respect and cool it.
Sure - however, as someone who is not a neophyte or a catechumen, but who desires it one day, it would be beneficial if you could explain what heterodoxy I'm proclaiming in any of the opinions I've given so far.

And if I've come across as disrespectful, feel free to point it out - as I'm all for constructive criticism on any account. Seriously - correct me - I don't want to come across as immature or ignorant.

I'll be open to people who are more educated than me, and admit they're more experienced than a "sophomore" - but if they have an opinion or reasoning which I find invalid (even if it's sound), I'm going to point it out. I would like the same, but so far I've gotten nothing but ad-hominem's, and the lack of attacking the substance of my argument itself.

Believe me, I don't want to be a heretic - so correct me if I'm wrong.
 

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LivenotoneviL said:
Volnutt said:
LivenotoneviL said:
Volnutt said:
Given that Elder Joseph the Hesychast was actually baptized "Franciscos" and there's at least one Orthodox Church from the 13th Century with an icon of him of the wall, and Fr. Lazarus Moore's story of him appearing in a dream to a French woman and telling her to go Orthodox--Francis at least seems to be a bit of a grey area.

That doesn't mean he should be canonized by the Orthodox Church or that everything he said or that has been said in his name is good, but it is food for thought.
He is a grey area - and I don't know about his sanctity. But your argument is exactly one of my concerns for the "Orthodoxy" of the San Damino cross, with the person of Francis of Assisi, who is permanently fixed with such art.
Why? Someone can use Origen's Haxapla or Tatian's Diatesseron or Eusebius's history and yet not consider them Saints nor even really give them personally a second thought.
May I ask what part of my opinion you disagreed with?
The idea that the San Damiano crucifix is somehow tainted or unusable because of Francis.

LivenotoneviL said:
Is it possible to NOT have one's own vision of the Church, and to live in a state of objectively following the Truth while not having any opinions on anything? I didn't realize that the Orthodox Tradition was so legalistic!
Of course you can't avoid having it. You can avoid being a dogmatic jackhole about it or obsessing over it until you run yourself ragged.

Something else that I'm sure you'll dismiss as irreparably tainted because a nonorthodox said it:

Dietrich Bonhoeffer said:
He who loves his dream of a community more that the Christian community itself becomes a destroyer of the latter, even though his personal intentions may be ever so honest and earnest and sacrificial.

...

God hates visionary dreaming; it makes the dreamer proud and pretentious. The man who fashions a visionary ideal of community demands that it be realized by God, by others, and by himself. He enters the community of Christians with his demands, sets up his own laws, and judges the brethren and God himself accordingly. He stands adamant, a living reproach to all others in the circle of the brethren. He acts as if he is the creator of the Christian community, as if his dream binds men together.
LivenotoneviL said:
To suggest that you don't have a vision of the Church and you are purely following objectivity is dishonest, especially when Saint Mark of Ephesus, Saint Photios, and Saint Isidore of Yuriev were all extremely hostile both in speech and in writing against the Roman Church in their theology.
All of whom were at least twice your age, both spiritually and temporally. All of whom were experienced clergymen. None of whom drastically changed their tone once a week like an unmedicated schizophrenic.
 

LivenotoneviL

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Volnutt said:
The idea that the San Damiano crucifix is somehow tainted or unusable because of Francis.
LivenotoneviL said:
Does it make it unOrthodox as an art piece? No - it is still Byzantine in its style and it is what I call "iconographic" - being 2-dimensional, having symbolic colors, and trying to transcend the materialism of this world. It's a better art-piece for veneration than some certain Russian Orthodox artwork I'm thinking of.
LivenotoneviL said:
The only thing that I - from an Orthodox perspective - would find somewhat problematic is its direct connection to Francis of Assisi; that is, this is the Crucifix that apparently talked to Francis and told him to "restore my Church."

However, in terms of art - I'm of the opinion there's nothing intrinsically heterodox in its art.
Objectively speaking, there is nothing wrong with the art piece itself - and I don't think it's unusable. However, I would say that it is "tainted" in the sense of one going OUT OF THEIR WAY to make this Cross a part of their spiritual life - mostly on two basis:

1. This is seen as a very holy image in Roman Catholicism and is wide spread because of it's miraculous nature towards Francis of Assisi.
2. An ethical basis of giving support and credence to Roman Catholicism and the Franciscans.

LivenotoneviL said:
Is it possible to NOT have one's own vision of the Church, and to live in a state of objectively following the Truth while not having any opinions on anything? I didn't realize that the Orthodox Tradition was so legalistic!
Of course you can't avoid having it. You can avoid being a dogmatic jackhole about it or obsessing over it until you run yourself ragged.

Something else that I'm sure you'll dismiss as irreparably tainted because a nonorthodox said it:

Dietrich Bonhoeffer said:
He who loves his dream of a community more that the Christian community itself becomes a destroyer of the latter, even though his personal intentions may be ever so honest and earnest and sacrificial.

...

God hates visionary dreaming; it makes the dreamer proud and pretentious. The man who fashions a visionary ideal of community demands that it be realized by God, by others, and by himself. He enters the community of Christians with his demands, sets up his own laws, and judges the brethren and God himself accordingly. He stands adamant, a living reproach to all others in the circle of the brethren. He acts as if he is the creator of the Christian community, as if his dream binds men together.
I gave an opinion about the San Damiano cross. Is this obsessing about it?

True, I am prideful and do not like losing arguments, even if they are over stupid junk like the ethics of praying using a San Damiano cross. And I love shoving down my opinions down people's throats.

Also, your argument that I think everything heterodox is tainted is misrepresenting my position - and is easily disproved by the images I've posted in this thread.


LivenotoneviL said:
To suggest that you don't have a vision of the Church and you are purely following objectivity is dishonest, especially when Saint Mark of Ephesus, Saint Photios, and Saint Isidore of Yuriev were all extremely hostile both in speech and in writing against the Roman Church in their theology.
All of whom were at least twice your age, both spiritually and temporally. All of whom were experienced clergymen. None of whom drastically changed their tone once a week like an unmedicated schizophrenic.
True.
 

Mor Ephrem

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LivenotoneviL said:
What exactly did I say that is heterodox or that I need to "unlearn?" Any kind of feedback is fine.
Apparently not.

And is anybody here - even if they be a priest - qualified to really give an opinion?
Yes.  I am really qualified to give an opinion.

I for one will admit that I am very immature, both literally and in my knowledge - but isn't discussion how I learn?
If you're always talking, you'll never listen, and you cannot learn without listening. 

Then again, maybe you see me as some kind of Pius XIII figure.

lol no
 

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LivenotoneviL said:
Objectively speaking, there is nothing wrong with the art piece itself - and I don't think it's unusable. However, I would say that it is "tainted" in the sense of one going OUT OF THEIR WAY to make this Cross a part of their spiritual life - mostly on two basis:

1. This is seen as a very holy image in Roman Catholicism and is wide spread because of it's miraculous nature towards Francis of Assisi.
2. An ethical basis of giving support and credence to Roman Catholicism and the Franciscans.
I'm not sure if this is directed to me personally, but I wouldn't say I "went out of my way to make this cross a part of [my] spiritual life". It was something I picked up on a generic tour through Italy, and being the uneducated church history (eastern and western) noob that I was (still am, but hopefully slowly climbing out of that hole) bought without realizing the cross was specifically attached to Francis. My (raised) RC husband doesn't even know it's associated with Francis.

Well now what to do with it? Of course it's not technically an Orthodox work despite its Byzantine influence, but I don't feel right just throwing it away or even giving it away. Those few hours at the monastery was my first impressionable contact with a form of rooted Christianity, and I think planted the seeds for Orthodoxy.
 

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LivenotoneviL said:
And I listened to a certain message from a certain person on this forum and thought about the Papacy one final time about EVERYTHING I know about Church History, and I've come to the conclusion that Orthodoxy is Truth. There's no way around it.
Glory be to God! 
 

Mor Ephrem

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maneki_neko said:
Well now what to do with it? Of course it's not technically an Orthodox work despite its Byzantine influence, but I don't feel right just throwing it away or even giving it away.
I have one.  I didn't go out of my way to get it, someone gave it to me.  I kept it. 

It's a cross.  It's an icon.
 

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maneki_neko said:
LivenotoneviL said:
Objectively speaking, there is nothing wrong with the art piece itself - and I don't think it's unusable. However, I would say that it is "tainted" in the sense of one going OUT OF THEIR WAY to make this Cross a part of their spiritual life - mostly on two basis:

1. This is seen as a very holy image in Roman Catholicism and is wide spread because of it's miraculous nature towards Francis of Assisi.
2. An ethical basis of giving support and credence to Roman Catholicism and the Franciscans.
I'm not sure if this is directed to me personally, but I wouldn't say I "went out of my way to make this cross a part of [my] spiritual life". It was something I picked up on a generic tour through Italy, and being the uneducated church history (eastern and western) noob that I was (still am, but hopefully slowly climbing out of that hole) bought without realizing the cross was specifically attached to Francis. My (raised) RC husband doesn't even know it's associated with Francis.

Well now what to do with it? Of course it's not technically an Orthodox work despite its Byzantine influence, but I don't feel right just throwing it away or even giving it away. Those few hours at the monastery was my first impressionable contact with a form of rooted Christianity, and I think planted the seeds for Orthodoxy.

I think personally it's fine in that context.
 

LivenotoneviL

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The Monreale Cathedral has pretty mosaics.

Temptation of Christ from Monreale Cathedral



The Three Angels of Abraham



Christ and the Samaritan Woman



Christ driving the Merchants out of the Temple

 

LivenotoneviL

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Theotokos, Giver of Milk, with Saint Leonard of Noblac and Saint Peter, surrounded by the life of Saint Peter.



Full size image:
http://b02.deliver.odai.yale.edu/d0/2c/d02cd408-3471-4793-943f-c326e9f0c7c4/ag-obj-286-033-pub-large.jpg
 

LivenotoneviL

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Apse of Santa Maria in Domnica from the 9th Century

The only potential problem is the icon of Pope Paschal I (the weird square halo person), who is a pre-schism Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, but whose canonization status in the Orthodox Church is unknown for me. He seemed to have friendly relations with the Eastern Churches, but this is the century where the real problems between Rome and the Eastern Churches became apparent.



Full size image:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Santa_Maria_in_Domnica_-_apse_mosaic.jpg
 

Iconodule

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LivenotoneviL said:
The only potential problem is the icon of Pope Paschal I (the weird square halo person), who is a pre-schism Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, but whose canonization status in the Orthodox Church is unknown for me.
You are really preoccupied with everything being explicitly permitted or forbidden. That’s not how orthodox Christianity works. Maybe Wahhabism or something.
 

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Iconodule said:
LivenotoneviL said:
The only potential problem is the icon of Pope Paschal I (the weird square halo person), who is a pre-schism Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, but whose canonization status in the Orthodox Church is unknown for me.
You are really preoccupied with everything being explicitly permitted or forbidden. That’s not how orthodox Christianity works. Maybe Wahhabism or something.
Somebody should have told me that long before I even considered Catechumenate. Would have saved me from a lot of hyperdox-ish distress.
 

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Iconodule said:
You are really preoccupied with everything being explicitly permitted or forbidden. That’s not how orthodox Christianity works. Maybe Wahhabism or something.
I think that's the normal result of we who are used to the unified state-society era, in which law and behaviour tend to become one, converting to religion. Many of us have been through this. The thing is Muslims have many times across history strived for some other kind of state-society unity, which resulted in the Wahhabi OCD abomination.
 

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LivenotoneviL said:
The only potential problem is the icon of Pope Paschal I (the weird square halo person), who is a pre-schism Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, but whose canonization status in the Orthodox Church is unknown for me.
Congratulations, you resolved your own doubt.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
LivenotoneviL said:
The only potential problem is the icon of Pope Paschal I (the weird square halo person), who is a pre-schism Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, but whose canonization status in the Orthodox Church is unknown for me.
Congratulations, you resolved your own doubt.
Pope Nicholas I is also a pre-schism saint in the Roman Catholic Church. He's definitely not a Saint in Orthodoxy, because he caused the Photian schism and demanded Papal Supremacy. Pope Paschal was Pope around this time period, and I'm unfamiliar with his relationship with the Eastern Churches.
 

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Iconodule said:
LivenotoneviL said:
The only potential problem is the icon of Pope Paschal I (the weird square halo person), who is a pre-schism Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, but whose canonization status in the Orthodox Church is unknown for me.
You are really preoccupied with everything being explicitly permitted or forbidden. That’s not how orthodox Christianity works. Maybe Wahhabism or something.
Your talking to someone who is used to hearing debates about whether or not the Novus Ordo is forbidden or not, whether or not Vatican II was a valid council or not, or whether or not the 1962 Tridentine Missal is acceptable compared to the 1955 Tridentine Missal, and whether or not one could find salvation in the FSSP or the SSPX. Mess up on one of these and you are probably damned to hell.

Also, due to my bad experiences with some Catholic education and lukewarm Catholic clergy, I still have a serious mistrust of authority that I need to overcome. I'm always on the defensive and feel that I need to constantly be informed lest I'm led to the slaughter.
 

Mor Ephrem

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LivenotoneviL said:
Mor Ephrem said:
LivenotoneviL said:
I'm unfamiliar
Yup.
I feel like that we are gonna have a healthy, functional, Christian relationship on this board.
I have a healthy, functional, Christian relationship with everyone on this board.

You got me I guess and disproved my comment which was an open ended question?
I just think you need to do more listening and less talking.  As long as you continue to disagree with that, doing your own thing is going to lead you into some bad places.   
 

LivenotoneviL

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Mor Ephrem said:
I just think you need to do more listening and less talking.  As long as you continue to disagree with that, doing your own thing is going to lead you into some bad places. 
However, I will point out your contradiction in that you constantly scold people who hold that "everything" from the West is heretical and certain beautiful things from the West can be Orthodox.

Yet here I am, a schismatic from the West, who is told that "everything" from me shouldn't be allowed.

Yet if it benefits the Holy Orthodox Church, I will obey and be quiet. If there is an Eastern Orthodox MDiv or priest on this forum who agrees with your sentiments, I will obey and shut up (although I'm shutting up anyways, because God wants me to, not because of some of your comments).
 

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He's not talking about what you're allowed, but what's healthful and can cause you to grow.
 

LivenotoneviL

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Porter ODoran said:
He's not talking about what you're allowed, but what's healthful and can cause you to grow.
Something happened to me today which I view as Divine Providence - where I was talking about theology to some Orthodox friends of mine and a poor couple of homeless women asked for 30$ - which I didn't have even on debit (one more week till I go home for the Semester) after they heard me talking about theology - which only led them to shouting at me "hypocrite! hypocrite! You're responsible for us freezing to death! This is why I don't trust religion or you so called "Christians!" Nobody helps us! We knocked on the Greek Cathedral's doors, but they wouldn't help us!" I tried sending them to another Church, but they would have none of it.

It was very clear at that moment it was God telling me to stop being so sophistic in theology, because I have no right to talk about it where I am in my life.
 
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