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Pontifical Western-Rite High Mass to be celebrated in ROCOR Canada WR

SubdeaconDavid

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His Grace Bishop Jerome of Manhattan, Vicar-Bishop to His Eminence Metropolitan Hilarion of Eastern America and New York, First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia has announced that in November he will celebrate a pontifical high mass in the Western-rite in Christ the Saviour Monastery in Canada.  His Grace has already worn Western vestments given to him by the Very Reverend Fr. Anthony (Bondi), Pastoral Vicar for the Western-Rite of ROCOR. Here is a photo of Vladyka Jerome with the Vicar-General for the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate, and his assistant, with the Very Reverend Father Anthony (Bondi) to the left of His Grace. http://img534.imageshack.us/f/vestmentsepiscopalwr.jpg/


I queried the use of "Mass" with Vladyka Jerome, versus "Divine liturgy" and His Grace wrote in occidentalis:
I too see nothing wrong with using the word Mass. There is nothing heretical about it! St. Gregory Dialogus uses it ("missa") in his writings.
Fixed html code to allow users to actually view the picture and properly format quote
 

deusveritasest

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Are you talking about a Hierarchical Liturgy?

Why is it called a "Pontifical" Mass? I've only ever seen that term associated with a Mass celebrated by "the Pope".
 

Rastaman

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deusveritasest said:
Are you talking about a Hierarchical Liturgy?

Why is it called a "Pontifical" Mass? I've only ever seen that term associated with a Mass celebrated by "the Pope".
pon·tiff   
[pon-tif]
–noun
1. any pontifex.
2. any high or chief priest.
3. Ecclesiastical .
  a. a bishop.
  b. the Roman Catholic pope, the Bishop of Rome.
 

Alpo

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Cool! 8)

augustin717 said:
ialmisry said:
Gloria Dei!
Deo
Lol! There are some non-English speakers and nobody corrects their errors. But when someone makes a mistake with Latin then there's always someone to correct. ;D
 

deusveritasest

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John of the North said:
deusveritasest said:
Are you talking about a Hierarchical Liturgy?

Why is it called a "Pontifical" Mass? I've only ever seen that term associated with a Mass celebrated by "the Pope".
pon·tiff   
[pon-tif]
–noun
1. any pontifex.
2. any high or chief priest.
3. Ecclesiastical .
   a. a bishop.
   b. the Roman Catholic pope, the Bishop of Rome.
Is it ("Pontifical Mass") used this way in the Roman church in modernity or is this a sort of ancient Western Orthodox revival in meaning?
 

stashko

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Hope and Prayers.....

Baa Humbug...... ;D :mad:

I wish the Roman Catholic Orthodox Western rite goes the way of the dinosaur, extinct....
Double Humbug..........Blaaa
 

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stashko said:
Baa Humbug...... ;D :mad:

I wish the Roman Catholic Orthodox Western rite goes the way of the dinosaur, extinct....
Double Humbug..........Blaaa
I think it did, because such a thing doesn't exist.
 

stashko

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Sleeper said:
stashko said:
Baa Humbug...... ;D :mad:

I wish the Roman Catholic Orthodox Western rite goes the way of the dinosaur, extinct....
Double Humbug..........Blaaa
I think it did, because such a thing doesn't exist.
Blaaa....
Some Part of Orthodoxy is Trying to revive a long dead Western Rotten Corpse...... It should remain Buried
and forgotten ... ;D Let it Rest in Peace....


Why do we want to copy that abomination from the west anyway, it hasn't done the roman catholic or Anglican Churches any good ...Just look at the mess and  condition there in ....West is loosing there faith......Western Roman /Anglican Orthodoxy  isn't going to work........
 

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stashko said:
Sleeper said:
stashko said:
Baa Humbug...... ;D :mad:

I wish the Roman Catholic Orthodox Western rite goes the way of the dinosaur, extinct....
Double Humbug..........Blaaa
I think it did, because such a thing doesn't exist.
Blaaa....
Some Part of Orthodoxy is Trying to revive a long dead Western Rotten Corpse...... It should remain Buried
and forgotten ... ;D Let it Rest in Peace....
That's an interesting choice of words.

 

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Yes, it really is ironic that those who think they're defending Orthodoxy the most are the ones who most deny its power.
 

stashko

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tuesdayschild said:
stashko said:
Sleeper said:
stashko said:
Baa Humbug...... ;D :mad:

I wish the Roman Catholic Orthodox Western rite goes the way of the dinosaur, extinct....
Double Humbug..........Blaaa
I think it did, because such a thing doesn't exist.
Blaaa....
Some Part of Orthodoxy is Trying to revive a long dead Western Rotten Corpse...... It should remain Buried
and forgotten ... ;D Let it Rest in Peace....
That's an interesting choice of words.

[/img]

These Images Blaaa......Not Orthodox....
 

ialmisry

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stashko said:
Sleeper said:
stashko said:
Baa Humbug...... ;D :mad:

I wish the Roman Catholic Orthodox Western rite goes the way of the dinosaur, extinct....
Double Humbug..........Blaaa
I think it did, because such a thing doesn't exist.
Blaaa....
Some Part of Orthodoxy is Trying to revive a long dead Western Rotten Corpse...... It should remain Buried
and forgotten ... ;D Let it Rest in Peace....


Why do we want to copy that abomination from the west anyway, it hasn't done the roman catholic or Anglican Churches any good ...Just look at the mess and  condition there in ....West is loosing there faith......Western Roman /Anglican Orthodoxy  isn't going to work........
The funeral at the Vatican a few years ago shows that it still has quite some life in it. Just imagine if you put Orthodoxy into the picture.

The Phanar just consecrated a Metropolitan to a dead Metropolis which has no Faithful. I've been there, the cradle of the Ottoman State.
 

ialmisry

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stashko said:
tuesdayschild said:
stashko said:
Sleeper said:
stashko said:
Baa Humbug...... ;D :mad:

I wish the Roman Catholic Orthodox Western rite goes the way of the dinosaur, extinct....
Double Humbug..........Blaaa
I think it did, because such a thing doesn't exist.
Blaaa....
Some Part of Orthodoxy is Trying to revive a long dead Western Rotten Corpse...... It should remain Buried
and forgotten ... ;D Let it Rest in Peace....
That's an interesting choice of words.

[/img]

These Images Blaaa......Not Orthodox....
Neither is this:

 

Tikhon29605

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Why would ANYONE be interested in coming to an Orthodox Church for a Western Rite service when they could go to Rome and get the REAL thing?  This baffles me, utterly.
 

tuesdayschild

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Tikhon29605 said:
Why would ANYONE be interested in coming to an Orthodox Church for a Western Rite service when they could go to Rome and get the REAL thing?  This baffles me, utterly.
My local RCC parish has a service that looks and feels like a Baptist church service, except for the lay Eucharistic ministers and altar girls. And the preaching isn't nearly as good. No, you cannot go to Rome and get the real thing. Not anymore.
 

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Tikhon29605 said:
Why would ANYONE be interested in coming to an Orthodox Church for a Western Rite service when they could go to Rome and get the REAL thing?  This baffles me, utterly.
Doctrine, theology, where do you want to start?
 

ialmisry

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Tikhon29605 said:
Why would ANYONE be interested in coming to an Orthodox Church for a Western Rite service when they could go to Rome and get the REAL thing?
Orthodoxy, bereft of heresy.
 

Tikhon29605

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I still don't get it.

If I wanted to learn about the Eastern Rite, I would go to the Eastern Orthodox Church to learn about it. That means I would go to a parish that is truly and historically part of the Orthodox Church, such as the Russian Orthodox Church or the Greek Orthodox Church, or a canonical Orthodox Church in communion with them.  

I would not go to Roman Catholic Church or a group in communion with Rome to learn about it, regardless of whether this group is called the Byzantine Catholic Church, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.

It makes no sense for the Latin Church to use the Eastern Liturgy just as it makes no sense for the Eastern Church to perform the Western (Latin) liturgy.

Can you not see that having so-called "Western Rite" Orthodox is simply reverse Uniatism?  Why would anyone want that again? Why repeat the mistake?

Eastern Rite Roman Catholics and Western Rite Orthodox are always going to be perceived as "grudge churches."  

And American, with all our jurisdictional pluralism and canonical mess is the LAST place that needs Western Rite Orthodox. We don't even have all the North American Orthodox on the same calendar and we introduce a Western Rite into our alphabet soup of jurisdictions?  I don't find that helpful, prudent or wise.  How can it possibly help American Orthodox to attain any unity?  It will only further fragment us into more tribal-like factions. It will create a liturgical ghetto for former Episcopalians and other converts rather than incorporating them into already existing American Orthodoxy.

As you can tell, I think the Western Rite in the USA is a horrible idea.  Perhaps in historical Western lands in Europe it could work, in places where there is a real organic link to the Western Orthodox past, like England or Ireland for example.  But it the USA, I think it will only further divide us.  And we desperately need more unity and cooperation. We are far too tribal and factional already.

 

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I am not a member of the 'Eastern' Church. I am a member of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, Eastern and Western, Northern and Southern, diversely united.
 

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SubdeaconDavid said:
His Grace Bishop Jerome of Manhattan, Vicar-Bishop to His Eminence Metropolitan Hilarion of Eastern America and New York, First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia has announced that in November he will celebrate a pontifical high mass in the Western-rite in Christ the Saviour Monastery in Canada.  His Grace has already worn Western vestments given to him by the Very Reverend Fr. Anthony (Bondi), Pastoral Vicar for the Western-Rite of ROCOR. Here is a photo of Vladyka Jerome with the Vicar-General for the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate, and his assistant, with the Very Reverend Father Anthony (Bondi) to the left of His Grace. http://img534.imageshack.us/f/vestmentsepiscopalwr.jpg/


I queried the use of "Mass" with Vladyka Jerome, versus "Divine liturgy" and His Grace wrote in occidentalis:
I too see nothing wrong with using the word Mass. There is nothing heretical about it! St. Gregory Dialogus uses it ("missa") in his writings.
Fixed html code to allow users to actually view the picture and properly format quote

Great! This is wonderful to see! :)

In Christ,
Andrew
 

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stashko said:
Hope and Prayers.....

Baa Humbug...... ;D :mad:

I wish the Roman Catholic Orthodox Western rite goes the way of the dinosaur, extinct....
Double Humbug..........Blaaa
Stashko, you don't have to try so hard.  No one will accuse you of given them the warm fuzzies
 

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Michał Kalina said:
I am not a member of the 'Eastern' Church. I am a member of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, Eastern and Western, Northern and Southern, diversely united.
A simple but excellent post.   
 

ialmisry

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Tikhon29605 said:
I still don't get it.
Obvioulsly.

I
Tikhon29605 said:
f I wanted to learn about the Eastern Rite, I would go to the Eastern Orthodox Church to learn about it. That means I would go to a parish that is truly and historically part of the Orthodox Church, such as the Russian Orthodox Church or the Greek Orthodox Church, or a canonical Orthodox Church in communion with them.
 

I don't go to Church every Sunday to learn about the Eastern Rite particularly.  I go there to worship.

Tikhon29605 said:
I would not go to Roman Catholic Church or a group in communion with Rome to learn about it, regardless of whether this group is called the Byzantine Catholic Church, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.
I might go there to learn about the Vatican's teachings, if I were in an Eastern country and wanted to learn them.

Tikhon29605 said:
It makes no sense for the Latin Church to use the Eastern Liturgy just as it makes no sense for the Eastern Church to perform the Western (Latin) liturgy
It makes no sense for the Catholic Church to limit herself to a direction. She held Ecumenical Councils, not Eastern ones.

Tikhon29605 said:
Can you not see that having so-called "Western Rite" Orthodox is simply reverse Uniatism?
No, you are seeing things.

Tikhon29605 said:
Why would anyone want that again? Why repeat the mistake?
The WRO aren't.

Tikhon29605 said:
Western Rite Orthodox are always going to be perceived as "grudge churches."
 
I would say only by the narrow minded, but I have no idea what a "grudge church" is.

Tikhon29605 said:
And American, with all our jurisdictional pluralism and canonical mess is the LAST place that needs Western Rite Orthodox
And America, with all our ethnic ghettos and insularity nonsense is the FIRST place that needs Western Rite Orthodox.

Tikhon29605 said:
We don't even have all the North American Orthodox on the same calendar and we introduce a Western Rite into our alphabet soup of jurisdictions?  I don't find that helpful, prudent or wise.
Thankfully, you're not in charge.

Tikhon29605 said:
How can it possibly help American Orthodox to attain any unity?
For one, admitting that we are living in the West.  And whatever they did back in the Old Country, don't bring your old rule to your new monastery.

Tikhon29605 said:
It will only further fragment us into more tribal-like factions.
LOL. Not while we are living on the WRO's reservation.

Tikhon29605 said:
It will create a liturgical ghetto for former Episcopalians and other converts rather than incorporating them into already existing American Orthodoxy.
I've met plenty of Americanized Eastern Orthodox who ended up WRO rather than episcopalian.  That's enough of a reason.  And the WRO is already existing in American Orthodoxy, and has for two generations.

Tikhon29605 said:
As you can tell, I think the Western Rite in the USA is a horrible idea.
That's OK. I think it is a SPLENDID idea.

Tikhon29605 said:
Perhaps in historical Western lands in Europe it could work, in places where there is a real organic link to the Western Orthodox past, like England or Ireland for example.
You live in Alaska or Northern California?

Tikhon29605 said:
But it the USA, I think it will only further divide us.  And we desperately need more unity and cooperation. We are far too tribal and factional already.
Yes, you animus against the WRO shows that.
 

ialmisry

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FatherHLL said:
Michał Kalina said:
I am not a member of the 'Eastern' Church. I am a member of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, Eastern and Western, Northern and Southern, diversely united.
A simple but excellent post.   
Indeed!
 

ialmisry

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Altar Server said:
Does anyone know what his Grace is wearing around his neck it doesn't look to be a pectoral cross.
I think it is his grace's Panagia.
 

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Tikhon29605 said:
Why would ANYONE be interested in coming to an Orthodox Church for a Western Rite service when they could go to Rome and get the REAL thing?  This baffles me, utterly.
Sounds like twofold branch theory to me. 
 

ialmisry

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FatherHLL said:
Tikhon29605 said:
Why would ANYONE be interested in coming to an Orthodox Church for a Western Rite service when they could go to Rome and get the REAL thing?  This baffles me, utterly.
Sounds like twofold branch theory to me. 
Worse, as it condemned the one branch to withering and dying.
 

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Tikhon29605 said:
Why would ANYONE be interested in coming to an Orthodox Church for a Western Rite service when they could go to Rome and get the REAL thing?  This baffles me, utterly.
Orthodoxy is the real thing. 
 

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Tikhon29605 said:
I still don't get it...Can you not see that having so-called "Western Rite" Orthodox is simply reverse Uniatism?  Why would anyone want that again? Why repeat the mistake? 
Yea, we need to get over that too.  As one priest told me at one time:  "there are many RC's that are really Orthodox and many Orthodox that are really RC's."  This has nothing to do with "rite," but with the essence of the Faith found in any legitimate Orthodox rite (eastern, western, northern or southern) as St. Symeon of Thessalonica pointed out.  As same priest said to me:  "we should just have an exchange program--those of theirs that really belong to us should come over here, rite and all, and vice versa."  There are no "western" and "eastern" rites, there are universal rites that had their origin in particular localities throughout the west and east. 
 

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I am still yet to see a single valid argument here for the addition of a so-called "Western Rite" into the praxis of the Orthodox Church here in North America.

Please address and respond to the following questions:

1. Why is a Western Rite needed here?

2. What is wrong with the Eastern Rite?

3. Is this not Renovationism to "jump start" a Rite within the Orthodox Church that died out over 1,000 years ago?

4. Is not restoring something from a long, distant "ideal" past not part of the "Protestant Reformer" mentality?  (Think of all the Protestant rhetoric about "restoring the New Testament Church" ... I find it very similar to the logic of "restoring" the Western Rite in Orthodoxy.

5. Perhaps God let the Western Rite die out for a reason?

6. Why has the Orthodox Church of Finland not developed a "Western Rite" for former Lutherans?  A case for 'doxing up the Lutheran Liturgy could be made just about as firmly as those who "Orthodoxized" the Cranmer's Book of Common Prayer in the so-called "Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon."

7. Perhaps the Finnish Orthodox think the best way to evangelize all those Lutherans is to stick with the Eastern Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom?  ;)

8. Lastly, the Tridentine Mass belongs to Rome.  I have far too much respect and genuine charity for my Roman Catholic friends and brethren to insult them by trying to do an "Orthodox" version of their Mass.  The Latin Mass belongs to Rome, regardless of whatever language it is translated into.  Why should Orthodox people tamper with it?  Are we going to insert an Epiclesis into the Tridentine Mass?  If so, then it isn't the Tridentine Mass anymore. It isn't even Western anymore. We would have just "Byzantinized" it. 

9.  Food for thought: If we can't use the Tridentine Mass in the Orthodox Church without tampering with it and changing it, why are we using it at all?
Why not just stick with the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil that formed the piety of our people for generations?
 

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Tikhon29605 said:
1. Why is a Western Rite needed here?
Some people consider it more appealing. It also broadens horizonts. Cultural diversity is a good thing.

2. What is wrong with the Eastern Rite?
It's the only one choice.

3. Is this not Renovationism to "jump start" a Rite within the Orthodox Church that died out over 1,000 years ago?
It did not died out but was murdered.

4. Is not restoring something from a long, distant "ideal" past not part of the "Protestant Reformer" mentality?  (Think of all the Protestant rhetoric about "restoring the New Testament Church" ... I find it very similar to the logic of "restoring" the Western Rite in Orthodoxy.
I don't have a Protestant background and I know personally about two Protestants but I share this belief so I suppose it's not the Protestant mentality.

5. Perhaps God let the Western Rite die out for a reason?
Maybe He wants us to show some involvement in restoring it?

6. Why has the Orthodox Church of Finland not developed a "Western Rite" for former Lutherans?  A case for 'doxing up the Lutheran Liturgy could be made just about as firmly as those who "Orthodoxized" the Cranmer's Book of Common Prayer in the so-called "Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon."
Why are you asking this question here? I doubt there are Church of Finland Council members to answer  to it.

7. Perhaps the Finnish Orthodox think the best way to evangelize all those Lutherans is to stick with the Eastern Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom?  ;)
Or perheaps as they  are under Constantinople they do not want to break Constantinople's approach of Hellenisation?

8. Lastly, the Tridentine Mass belongs to Rome.  I have far too much respect and genuine charity for my Roman Catholic friends and brethren to insult them by trying to do an "Orthodox" version of their Mass.  The Latin Mass belongs to Rome, regardless of whatever language it is translated into.  Why should Orthodox people tamper with it?  Are we going to insert an Epiclesis into the Tridentine Mass?  If so, then it isn't the Tridentine Mass anymore. It isn't even Western anymore. We would have just "Byzantinized" it.
It does not belong to Rome. It belongs to the Church.

9.  Food for thought: If we can't use the Tridentine Mass in the Orthodox Church without tampering with it and changing it, why are we using it at all?
Yes. Repaired car is still a car.

Why not just stick with the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil that formed the piety of our people for generations?
Why not use latin Liturgies that formed the piety of our people for generations?
 

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Tikhon29605 said:
I am still yet to see a single valid argument here for the addition of a so-called "Western Rite" into the praxis of the Orthodox Church here in North America.
I have a funny feeling you will never accept any argument as "valid" for the WR.

1. Why is a Western Rite needed here?
The salvation of the faithful??

2. What is wrong with the Eastern Rite?
Nothing is wrong with the Eastern Rite.

3. Is this not Renovationism to "jump start" a Rite within the Orthodox Church that died out over 1,000 years ago?
There is evidence of a group of Old Believers--canonical the whole time--who have used a WR liturgy for centuries, meaning it has been in continual use. At any rate, excluding that group of Old Believers, it has been less than 1000 years. The monastery on Mt Athos lasted into the 1200s, and there had been a few attempts between then and the 1800s to bring the WR back into the fold. We also use other Eastern DLs on a sporadic basis, by your argument, it would be renovationsim there too.

4. Is not restoring something from a long, distant "ideal" past not part of the "Protestant Reformer" mentality?  (Think of all the Protestant rhetoric about "restoring the New Testament Church" ... I find it very similar to the logic of "restoring" the Western Rite in Orthodoxy.
Who says anything about an ideal?? Maybe you are reading into the WR your own misconceptions.

5. Perhaps God let the Western Rite die out for a reason?
Perhaps He is letting it come back into use for a reason??

6. Why has the Orthodox Church of Finland not developed a "Western Rite" for former Lutherans?  A case for 'doxing up the Lutheran Liturgy could be made just about as firmly as those who "Orthodoxized" the Cranmer's Book of Common Prayer in the so-called "Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon."
Maybe they have found that what they have works for their circumstances?? Maybe those who use the WR have found it works for theirs??

7. Perhaps the Finnish Orthodox think the best way to evangelize all those Lutherans is to stick with the Eastern Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom?
They probably also found that it is best to evangelise in Finnish. Does that mean we should also evangelise in Finnish, because it works for the Finns?? They do what works for them, and those working in the WR do what works for them.

8. Lastly, the Tridentine Mass belongs to Rome.  I have far too much respect and genuine charity for my Roman Catholic friends and brethren to insult them by trying to do an "Orthodox" version of their Mass.  The Latin Mass belongs to Rome, regardless of whatever language it is translated into.  Why should Orthodox people tamper with it?  Are we going to insert an Epiclesis into the Tridentine Mass?  If so, then it isn't the Tridentine Mass anymore. It isn't even Western anymore. We would have just "Byzantinized" it.
The Latin Mass belongs to the Church of Christ, as part of a rich liturgical heritage. It does not belong to an earthly city.

9.  Food for thought: If we can't use the Tridentine Mass in the Orthodox Church without tampering with it and changing it, why are we using it at all?
Why not just stick with the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil that formed the piety of our people for generations?
Because naturally, those venerable liturgies have gone unchanged, set in stone for centuries.
 
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