It's not so-called, that is what it's called.Tikhon29605 said:I am still yet to see a single valid argument here for the addition of a so-called "Western Rite" into the praxis of the Orthodox Church here in North America.
This is the wrong question to ask. Orthodoxy is not Utilitarian and interestingly enough, that question reeks of all that is currently wrong with "the West." It's not about what's "needed" it's about beauty and truth.Please address and respond to the following questions:
1. Why is a Western Rite needed here?
Nothing. Some of us just don't want our rich spiritual heritage to be thrown into the crapshoot.2. What is wrong with the Eastern Rite?
It didn't die out. What in the world do you think the British and Roman Churches continued to use after the Schism? And it has been far less than 1,000. As an entire Rite, it's more like 700, and as far as liturgies go, there has never been a break within the Orthodox Church.3. Is this not Renovationism to "jump start" a Rite within the Orthodox Church that died out over 1,000 years ago?
I know "Protestant" is a dirty word to you, but you obviously don't know much about their original "mentality" otherwise, you'd know that what they wanted to do was much needed. Unless you're completely unaware of the doctrinal innovations of the Roman Catholic Church...4. Is not restoring something from a long, distant "ideal" past not part of the "Protestant Reformer" mentality? (Think of all the Protestant rhetoric about "restoring the New Testament Church" ... I find it very similar to the logic of "restoring" the Western Rite in Orthodoxy.
I'll never understand this common mindset within anti-Western Rite people of hating any idea of "restoration" or "resurrection" when that is exactly what the Church is all about. You want to talk about being "utterly baffled" by something...
Again, it didn't die out.5. Perhaps God let the Western Rite die out for a reason?
Perhaps no Lutherans have approached them?6. Why has the Orthodox Church of Finland not developed a "Western Rite" for former Lutherans?
Not sure who "the Cranmer" is, or what you think his relationship is to the Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon is (again, not "so-called" that is what it's called) but this is just another example of the historical ignorance and intellectual laziness of anti-Western Riters that people justly scoff at. You quite clearly haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about.A case for 'doxing up the Lutheran Liturgy could be made just about as firmly as those who "Orthodoxized" the Cranmer's Book of Common Prayer in the so-called "Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon."
If it works, God bless it!7. Perhaps the Finnish Orthodox think the best way to evangelize all those Lutherans is to stick with the Eastern Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom?
All truth belongs to the Holy Orthodox Church.8. Lastly, the Tridentine Mass belongs to Rome.
That's nice of you.I have far too much respect and genuine charity for my Roman Catholic friends and brethren to insult them by trying to do an "Orthodox" version of their Mass.
All truth belongs to the Holy Orthodox Church.The Latin Mass belongs to Rome, regardless of whatever language it is translated into.
"Tampering" is not the term I'd use when dealing with the expulsion of heresy, but perhaps that's because I take it seriously.Why should Orthodox people tamper with it?
Yep!Are we going to insert an Epiclesis into the Tridentine Mass?
Probably why we call it the Rite of St. Gregory and not "The Tridentine Mass."If so, then it isn't the Tridentine Mass anymore.
LOLIt isn't even Western anymore. We would have just "Byzantinized" it.
All truth belongs to the Holy Orthodox Church.9. Food for thought: If we can't use the Tridentine Mass in the Orthodox Church without tampering with it and changing it, why are we using it at all?
Because some people have their own legitimate heritage that formed the piety of Orthodox Saints for over a millennium and, unlike your very limited take on Orthodoxy, we believe that heritage rightfully belongs in the bosom of the Undivided Church of Christ.Why not just stick with the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil that formed the piety of our people for generations?