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Pope Francis Endorses Same-Sex Civil Unions

Saxon

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Pope Francis endorsed same-sex civil unions for the first time as pope while being interviewed for the feature-length documentary Francesco, which had its premiere at the Rome Film Festival on Wednesday.

Francis's comments came midway through the film, which delves into issues he cares about most, including the environment, poverty, migration, racial and income inequality and the people most affected by discrimination.

"Homosexual people have the right to be in a family. They are children of God," Francis said in one of his sit-down interviews for the film. "What we have to have is a civil union law. That way they are legally covered."

Francis, believed to the first pope to use the word gay publicly, famously told a reporter in 2013, "If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?"

Three years later in a papal exhortation, Francis said, "every person, regardless of sexual orientation, ought to be respected in his or her dignity and treated with consideration, while 'every sign of unjust discrimination' is to be carefully avoided, particularly any form of aggression and violence."
Source: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/pope-documentary-gay-rights-1.5770754?cmp=rss
 

Mor Ephrem

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“It has nothing to do with the sacrament of marriage, it’s just about legal rights.”

“It wasn’t an ex cathedra infallible declaration.”

“Orthodox allow divorce and birth control.”

<Long list of out-of-context quotes>
 

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Nonetheless, his "opinion" counts... and his comments only serve to further destroy the nuclear family.

Even if he was not pope yet, his voiced opinions should have upheld RC teaching... as every priest's voiced comments should be spreading the truth of Christ... as in fact, all of our comments should.

Being in a position of power, has additional responsibility.

On the other side, perhaps this will simply grow the Orthodox Church.

As for Divorce... the Church permits at most three divorces... and each one must be reviewed and a true cause for the divorce be found. If it is simply willy nilly... because he won't put the toilet seat down, I feel it might not be granted, but, marital counseling would be prescribed.

As for birth control... I will have to revisit my books to see where exactly the Church teaches that birth control is permissible... as "relations" should only be taking place between a married couple, and children are a blessing to such a union.

Not to say that Orthodox Christians don't take birth control, or file for divorce.... I bet there are many Orthodox Christians that support gay marriage and abortions....
 

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The reactions in online circles are telling, and not just from the "rad-trad" crowd. Most Catholics seem to be genuinely horrified by these remarks, including those who had more or less excused away his previous weird statements and actions.

Well, we seem to have lost a rhetorical device. RIP, "is the Pope Catholic?"
 
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The reactions in online circles are telling, and not just from the "rad-trad" crowd. Most Catholics seem to be genuinely horrified by these remarks, including those who had more or less excused away his previous weird statements and actions.

Well, we seem to have lost a rhetorical device. RIP, "is the Pope Catholic?"
Yes I wonder where many faithful Catholics in their flock going to go to SSPX or go full on Sedevacantist. The sedevacantists must be thinking "I told you all so all along "
 

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Wandile, while polemics are allowed in Religious Topics, outright calling the pope a heretic goes beyond this. I know you retracted your statement, so this is a verbal warning. Points will be awarded next time. Thanks. --Ainnir
This was only a matter of time from this pope. Considering his past comments as Archbishop of Buenos Aires to the same effect where is fellows rebuffed him. Also considering whom he keeps close company with in his Vatican, from outside looking in so I may be speculating, it’s not a surprise.

I don’t care if he said this in an interview/documentary and how this isn’t ex cathedra or whatever. His position as pope alone with these comments causes enough scandal. Obviously the world will run with it and he knows this.

St Charles Lwanga and the Martyrs of Uganda died for nothing according to this popes opinion. I’ve been very choice with my words to describe this pope though I have always known what I think. However, today there is no other way but to simply say it because he has betrayed the faith. The pope is a heretic.

There is one prophecy by St Francis of Assisi that comes to mind regularly and it’s bearing truer every day this man is in the papal throne.
 
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Wandile

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The reactions in online circles are telling, and not just from the "rad-trad" crowd. Most Catholics seem to be genuinely horrified by these remarks, including those who had more or less excused away his previous weird statements and actions.

Well, we seem to have lost a rhetorical device. RIP, "is the Pope Catholic?"
Well except the lapses and the heretical Fr James Martin crowd who are jumping for joy.
 

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Speaking as someone who is heartbroken to see the Roman Catholic Church as it is now, it really speaks to the "spiritual state" of the Roman Catholic Church that this comment is making the waves even on mainstream outlets like Fox News, but only the trads had their panties in knots when this Pope compared Priestly cassocks to women's dresses, allegedly denied Christ's Divinity and stayed silent on those allegations, signed a document that God wills a plurality of religions including Islam, and blessed an idol of a Native American fertility goddess during the Amazon Synod and used said idol in Mass.

I mean this comment on policy preference, not even a stance on the Catholic Church's dogmatic moral position (one can believe contraception should be legal but believe it is morally impermissible) is like a grain of salt compared to everything else this Pope did. Why is this story suddenly shocking? Is it really out of character with the Pope?

The only time the mainstream Catholics got this upset was when he smiled receiving a communist crucifix and when he insinuated that a certain orange-tinted man wasn't a Christian.
 
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Well except the lapses and the heretical Fr James Martin crowd who are jumping for joy.
Yes, "Fr." James is already wearing out his keyboard gloating online. That guy makes my skin crawl.

I expect this will be a boon to the SSPX and over Sedevacantist groups as seekeroftruth says, and some others might inquire into Orthodoxy. The Catholicism Reddit sub is already deleting comments to those effects. This looks to be the straw that broke the camel's back for many who were trying to quietly endure this papacy. I'm also seeing lots of "Pope Burke/Sarah/Schneider/etc. someday". That's unlikely. If the powers-that-be have their way the next papacy will be Francis II.

I don't know what mechanisms there are for correcting/removing a Pope - I'm guessing not many, but I sincerely hope true Catholics are able to reclaim their church someday.
 

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“What we have to create is a civil union law. That way they are legally covered. I stood up for that.”

Pope Francis
 

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I expect this will be a boon to the SSPX and over Sedevacantist groups as seekeroftruth says, and some others might inquire into Orthodoxy. The Catholicism Reddit sub is already deleting comments to those effects.
I saw one on CAF just now saying “have faith, Francis won’t be Pope forever”

This looks to be the straw that broke the camel's back for many who were trying to quietly endure this papacy. I'm also seeing lots of "Pope Burke/Sarah/Schneider/etc. someday". That's unlikely. If the powers-that-be have their way the next papacy will be Francis II.
It depends, Pope Francis isn’t very popular in his own Vatican and considering the history of papal elections and how very rarely two popes are of the same make I think we will most likely get a moderate in the next papal conclave. I doubt we will get a conservative or liberal as both won’t allow that to happen.

I don't know what mechanisms there are for correcting/removing a Pope - I'm guessing not many, but I sincerely hope true Catholics are able to reclaim their church someday.
The mechanisms exist but the truth is the current crop of priests and bishops are terrified of the pope . Gone are the days when they would correct a pope when he errs. The fear for losing their jobs. We all saw what happened to Cardinal Burke. We saw how the priest in Italy and the priest in Chile (IIRC) were excommunicated for correcting the pope on points of doctrine and divorce and remarriage and church teaching I that regard. We also saw what Fr Wienandy who did something similar after writing his open letter to the pope in 2017. This sends a strong message and most clergy don’t want to lose their jobs. So they just wait for the pontificate to end.
 
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Wandile

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“What we have to create is a civil union law. That way they are legally covered. I stood up for that.”

Pope Francis

Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith, approved by Pope St John Paul II in 2003:

“Those who would move from tolerance to the legitimization of specific rights for cohabiting homosexual persons need to be reminded that the approval or legalization of evil is something far different from the toleration of evil.
In those situations where homosexual unions have been legally recognized or have been given the legal status and rights belonging to marriage, clear and emphatic opposition is a duty. One must refrain from any kind of formal cooperation in the enactment or application of such gravely unjust laws and, as far as possible, from material cooperation on the level of their application. In this area, everyone can exercise the right to conscientious objection.”
 

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“What we have to create is a civil union law. That way they are legally covered. I stood up for that.”

Pope Francis
The problem here is that a civil union is not some sort of innocuous and expeditious partnership; they are specifically designed as a fully equal substitution for marriage. And let's not mince words about who it is that obtains these unions. These partnerships are, by definition, sinful (without getting into the nuances of just how gravely sinful are the specific physical acts according to Catholic teaching), do nothing to produce families, and given moves toward gay adoption, actually place children in a spiritually and psychologically harmful environment.
 

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This has nothing to do with granting basic legal rights. Freedom of association allows two men or two women to create patrimonial rights that will allow them to have almost every benefit a marriage provides. Civil unions are just a euphemism to allow same-sex marriages for the most part while keeping conservatives less hysterical.

At the very least the Pope is openly professing secularism and supporting the idea that people should listen to their own hearts rather than to the laws of the Church. How can anyone that puts their own teachings in such low value be taken seriously? I guess Christians as a whole are free to support secularism, but that's strange for one who claims to be God's representative on Earth.
 

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Dog pile on the rabbit, dog pile on the rabbit, dog pile on the rabbit.

 

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Wow, a CDF document.
Yes, the church through the sacred congregation and with the approval of the saintly pope clarified that no support for civil unions of any kind can be made by a Catholic. The pope has just turned his back on church teaching and clearly by his past statements, he seems to have defected from church teaching in this regard long before he was pope.
Deacon you can brush it aside all you want but it’s clear what Pope Francis has done here.
 
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recent convert, we still need to use proper titles for clergy, whether we agree with them or not. Thanks. --Ainnir
I always understood that Christians are to obey the established secular law ( Romans 13:1-7) & love God & neighbor as we go ( Romans 13:8-10). We are to keep the commandments of God first ( John 14:15-18). The commandments being ( Matthew 19:16-19, Romans 13:8-10 etc.) & there are distinctions between loving of neighbors & not loving the world ( 1 John 2:10-18, etc.), sexual morality within the church community & of the world ( 1 Corinthians 5 etc.).

(Pope Francis --Ainnir) seems to be of the world & there are probably “Orthodox” leaders who will compel us to join him. Those under leaders like this will probably be called hateful for actually believing ( albeit as struggling sinners) in the 10 commandments etc.
 
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Okay so I just saw the video where Pope Francis is speaking on the matter concerned. It appears to me from the video that Pope Francis is not in fact in endorsing civil unions and some Italian commentators have also reiterated that the words are deceptively and incorrectly translated into “civil unions” but actually what he said was “civil co-existence”. His actual words were “Ley de Convivencia Civil”. This seems to be true based on what I saw in the video.

The Pope was discussing the situation where homosexual people are shunned from their families and then goes on to say that they have a right to family and shouldn’t be discriminated against (I.e they shouldn’t be kicked out etc) and then says there should be laws to protect them from this and then says the line stipulating the laws for civil existence should be enacted to protect them from such situations.

Also apparently this interview was done in 2019.
 

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Okay so I just saw the video where Pope Francis is speaking on the matter concerned. It appears to me from the video that Pope Francis is not in fact in endorsing civil unions and some Italian commentators have also reiterated that the words are deceptively and incorrectly translated into “civil unions” but actually what he said was “civil co-existence”. His actual words were “Ley de Convivencia Civil”. This seems to be true based on what I saw in the video.

The Pope was discussing the situation where homosexual people are shunned from their families and then goes on to say that they have a right to family and shouldn’t be discriminated against (I.e they shouldn’t be kicked out etc) and then says there should be laws to protect them from this and then says the line stipulating the laws for civil existence should be enacted to protect them from such situations.

Also apparently this interview was done in 2019.
Having no knowledge of that language, I'm certainly open to the idea that he was mistranslated - unintentionally or otherwise (let's not pretend the media don't have an interest in reading a progressive and heretical agenda into the Catholic Church) - but if that's the case, then he needs to issue a public correction and unequivocally refute the assertion that he was endorsing civil unions for same-sex couples. There's no ambiguity as to how the media, or indeed many Catholic clergy and hierarchs, interpreted it, so his response, if any, will clarify the situation.
 

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Thanks for digging and fact checking, Wandile.
 

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Having no knowledge of that language, I'm certainly open to the idea that he was mistranslated - unintentionally or otherwise (let's not pretend the media don't have an interest in reading a progressive and heretical agenda into the Catholic Church) - but if that's the case, then he needs to issue a public correction and unequivocally refute the assertion that he was endorsing civil unions for same-sex couples. There's no ambiguity as to how the media, or indeed many Catholic clergy and hierarchs, interpreted it, so his response, if any, will clarify the situation.
I agree and it seems I was hasty with my judgment of him as a heretic and I apologize for that. I hope the Vatican quickly clarifies this because it’s causing A LOT of scandal.
 

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Divine law is above ecclesiastical law. Just as no cleric, no matter their position, can keep one from worshipping God on Sunday, no cleric can make an approval or allow for a union opposed to the divine law of God. Just like with Israel, when they begged for a king and when God told Samuel to finally give them one, He did so with the admonition, "it is not you they have rejected but me" (1 Samuel 8:7). Similarly, there have been and will continue to be lobbyist and pressure on the Church begging her to recognize what they have wanted so badly, recognition of civil unions for same sex couples as legitimate. Just the news Pope Francis made his comments has already spread the world over. Many used his comments in anticipation the Church could be granting her approval. Even if the Pope "clarifies" it, the signal wires are out there to those begging for approval that one day this could be coming. As Pope Francis is listening to what the people say, there are people and groups that are ultimately rejecting God as their King.

In the meantime, here the laity sit, mocked and derided with the Pope's each passing word, whether from what he says or what one interprets they claim he said. I just know that He who endures until the end will be saved (Mt 24:13).
 
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Having no knowledge of that language, I'm certainly open to the idea that he was mistranslated - unintentionally or otherwise (let's not pretend the media don't have an interest in reading a progressive and heretical agenda into the Catholic Church) - but if that's the case, then he needs to issue a public correction and unequivocally refute the assertion that he was endorsing civil unions for same-sex couples. There's no ambiguity as to how the media, or indeed many Catholic clergy and hierarchs, interpreted it, so his response, if any, will clarify the situation.
Our generation iis already facing an unfathomable degree of confusion on almost every front it is possible to imagine. I truly hope Pope Francis didn't say what he is reported to have said.

Given warrant of possible mis-translation, and the insane degree of will-to-misrepresentation so ubiquitous today, awaiting clarification with concerned caution seems best to me.

For the record unlike some here I regard differences between Orthodoxy and RC as presently irreconcilable and non-negotiable, however I am seldom a fan of rushing to judgment over the latest news no matter what it is and who it concerns.
 

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Okay so I just saw the video where Pope Francis is speaking on the matter concerned. It appears to me from the video that Pope Francis is not in fact in endorsing civil unions and some Italian commentators have also reiterated that the words are deceptively and incorrectly translated into “civil unions” but actually what he said was “civil co-existence”. His actual words were “Ley de Convivencia Civil”. This seems to be true based on what I saw in the video.

The Pope was discussing the situation where homosexual people are shunned from their families and then goes on to say that they have a right to family and shouldn’t be discriminated against (I.e they shouldn’t be kicked out etc) and then says there should be laws to protect them from this and then says the line stipulating the laws for civil existence should be enacted to protect them from such situations.

Also apparently this interview was done in 2019.
Splitting hairs for a literal translation. He meant civil unions.
 
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I wonder what the Pope thinks of the fact that traditional, Catholic Amy Coney Barrett served on a board of private Christian schools. These schools seem like fundamentalist that believe in traditional Christian morality, Such schools would not promote the LGBT etc. agenda but media ( like the AP) say such schools EXCLUDE people who are hostile to their faith.


 

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Splitting hairs for a literal translation. He meant civil unions.
I don’t know as I don’t speak Italian/Spanish. All the people who speak Italian/Spanish (I can’t tell what language is spoken in the video, but judging by the phrase “convivencia civil” I think the pope was speaking Spanish), that I’ve seen, and are commenting on this matter are saying its a mistranslation. To me after watching the video with the subtitles, it being a mistranslation makes perfect sense when you see the context of what the pope is saying.

It makes no sense that he is talking of people being shunned from their families for being homosexual and being discriminated against and then randomly saying they should haves low for civil unions (something that already exists) to protect them which really does nothing in this situation.
 
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The Holy Father’s apparent support for the recognition of civil unions for same-sex couples needs to be clarified. The Pope’s statement clearly contradicts what has been the long-standing teaching of the Church about same-sex unions. The Church cannot support the acceptance of objectively immoral relationships. Individuals with same-sex attraction are beloved children of God and must have their personal human rights and civil rights recognized and protected by law. However, the legalization of their civil unions, which seek to simulate holy matrimony, is not admissible.

Bishop Thomas Tobin of Providence, RI
 

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From the same interview apparently:


Q.- Pope Francis, there is something that catches my attention a bit. Acquaintances of yours from when you lived in Argentina, they say that you were a conservative to always use categories, let’s say like this, in doctrine.

A.- I am a conservative.



Q.- You made a whole battle over equal marriages, of same-sex couples in Argentina. And then, as he said, they say he got here, they elected him Pope and he seemed like much more liberal than he was in Argentina. Do you recognize yourself in this description made by some people who knew you before, or it was the grace of the Holy Spirit that gave you more …
(laughs)

A.- The grace of the Holy Spirit certainly exists. I always defended the doctrine. And it is curious, in the law of homosexual marriage … it is an incongruity to speak of homosexual marriage.
 

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Lord have mercy.

The confusion is not accidental. It's been happening all along with Pope Francis. People hear what they want to hear. There's a pattern here with him. He doesn't step up and clarify. He throws stuff out there n watches the sheep n wolves create a bloodbath. Something big is about to come about. Pray. I know nothing but I watch and pray. I just left Catholic and joined Orthodox Sept 6 2020. Lord have mercy and bring all of us to repentance and deliver us from the evil one. Lord have mercy. Protect us from pride Lord.
 

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Well the same article does make mention that other Spanish priests recognize it as a mistranslation. Bishop Fernandez is a liberal so it’s not surprising he would say this but I remember online some other Spanish speaker also showed that the phrase used in Argentina for civil union is “Unión civil” or “union convivencia” while the pope said “convivencia civil” which means civil coexistence.

Contextually it makes perfect sense that, as other Spanish speakers are saying, it means civil coexistence as he talks about creating a new law to protect gay people (civil unions already exist) and he says this law must be used to protect homosexuals from discrimination and banishment from their families. Hence a law of coexistence.

I really don’t know but that’s my take.
 
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I’m not sure any of us can know for sure. Until a clarification comes out, it’s anyone’s guess. But I don’t think “it’s a mistranslation” is the only possible interpretation.
 

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Okay so I just saw the video where Pope Francis is speaking on the matter concerned. It appears to me from the video that Pope Francis is not in fact in endorsing civil unions and some Italian commentators have also reiterated that the words are deceptively and incorrectly translated into “civil unions” but actually what he said was “civil co-existence”. His actual words were “Ley de Convivencia Civil”. This seems to be true based on what I saw in the video.

The Pope was discussing the situation where homosexual people are shunned from their families and then goes on to say that they have a right to family and shouldn’t be discriminated against (I.e they shouldn’t be kicked out etc) and then says there should be laws to protect them from this and then says the line stipulating the laws for civil existence should be enacted to protect them from such situations.
Absolutely not! Unión convivencial and unión civil are two names for the same Argentine law institute. Convivencia can indeed mean "co-existence", but it also means (even literally) "cohabitation". Convivencia civil is just a mash-up of both names, and it's not about basic rights because there are already laws protecting people who cannot be married but are living as a couple anyway: they're in unión concubinaria, not unión civil! Anything beyond this would not only be speculative legalistic coping, but also objectively wrong. Whichever Vatican II shills are publishing otherwise should add someone with more than high school Spanish to their ranks.

But you don't have to take my word for it, the Archbishop of La Plata (and former Pope's suffragan) Don Víctor Manuel Fernández, Archbishop of Buenos Aires, not only confirmed it, but went well beyond:

Bergoglio always recognised that, without calling it "marriage", in fact there are very close relationships between people of the same sex [...] therefore one prefers such person to inherit all their belongings, etc. This can be covered by the law and means "civil union", or "law of civil cohabitation, not marriage.

Bergoglio always had this opinion, actually some years ago there was a discussion among the Argentine hierarchy, in which Bergoglio defended it, but lost the argument. The majority said this would be conflated with marriage and preferred not to do innovations.

There's no loophole around this. It is what it is. I'm not bantering you guys for Schadenfreude: this seriously worries me because we Orthodox are next in line, and I'm sure some high-ranking figures among our clergy are jealous that they have to hide their agreement with the Pope.
 
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Stinky

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Absolutely not! Unión convivencial and unión civil are two names for the same Argentine law institute. Convivencia can indeed mean "co-existence", but it also means (even literally) "cohabitation". Convivencia civil is just a mash-up of both names, and it's not about basic rights because there are already laws protecting people who cannot be married but are living as a couple anyway: they're in unión concubinaria, not unión civil! Anything beyond this would not only be speculative legalistic coping, but also objectively wrong. Whichever Vatican II shills are publishing otherwise should add someone with more than high school Spanish to their ranks.

But you don't have to take my word for it, the Archbishop of La Plata (and former Pope's suffragan) Don Víctor Manuel Fernández, Archbishop of Buenos Aires, not only confirmed it, but went well beyond:


There's no loophole around this. It is what it is. I'm not bantering you guys for Schadenfreude: this seriously worries me because we Orthodox are next in line, and I'm sure some high-ranking figures among our clergy are jealous that they have to hide their agreement with the Pope.
The Wheel, spring/ summer edition
Foreword
Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
On same sex love

Has the Roman Catholic Pope been influenced by our famous Orthodox metropolitan?

Lord have mercy.
 

Saxon

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The Wheel, spring/ summer edition
Foreword
Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
On same sex love

Has the Roman Catholic Pope been influenced by our famous Orthodox metropolitan?

Lord have mercy.
The Metropolitan is known as "Kallistos o Anglikanos" in some circles. In some cases not without cause.
 
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