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Pope Francis Reaches Out To Honor The Man Who Splintered Christianity

Bob2

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http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2016/10/28/499587801/pope-francis-reaches-out-to-honor-the-man-who-splintered-christianity?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=2054
 

Iconodule

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benjohn146

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What else to expect from the organization that splintered from Christianity almost a 1000 years ago. I am surprised that Cardinal Humbert doesn't get the same honors!  :p
 

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Iconodule said:
Is that a Jack Chick panel? The Dude is nuts crazy, Man!
 

xOrthodox4Christx

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Not surprising. The Roman Church signed a declaration of joint faith with Lutheranism regarding Sola Fide that contradicted their own Council of Trent.
 

Diego

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Keep in mind that all the so-called Lutheran-Roman Cathoilc "dialogue" garbage is being carried on by the Lutheran World Federation. They are nearly all Quatenus Churches. MOST Quia Churches, such as my own, will have NOTHING to do with that garbage.

This ecumenical garbage is for the birds. LCMS and her sister Churches, of which there are 35 including ourselves, want nothing to do with it. This whole nonsense about "lets all sit down and talk and together water down our separate beliefs and reach a new consensus, and then sing Kum-bay-Ya" is, to put it bluntly, trash.

I have never understood the need to have Ecumenical services, and share communion with people who don't believe in the Sacrament the way we do (except perhaps in time of grave emergency), and things like that. Its frankly, quite offensive. Don't count me as one of those Lutherans who "signs ecumenical agreements with Rome."

We consider the Papacy to be evil. In fact, Luther considered it to be one of the horns, along with Mohammedanism, of THE Anti-Christ. LCMS has never retracted that position, and still maintains it formally. I am personally inclined to agree with it, myself.

So, yes, Francis can sign all the blasted documents he wants, but he'll never win the war. EVER.


Diego, in this one post you have broken at least three rules: no-polemics in the Christian News section, agitation for non-Orthodox beliefs and usage of the proper titles of the clergy (in this case, Roman Catholic pope). I am giving you 20% of warning.

Dominika, section moderator
 

Iconodule

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Diego said:
MOST Quia Churches, such as my own... sing Kum-bay-Ya...with THE Anti-Christ. LCMS has never retracted that position, and still maintains it formally. I am personally inclined to agree with it, myself.
Interesting.
 

xOrthodox4Christx

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Its frankly, quite offensive.
Protestantism as a whole is offensive. It's offensive to the 2000 year experience of billions of believers in Christ who knew nothing of Martin Luther's conception of Christianity.

Anyway, it's becoming more impossible for union with Rome to occur. Too bad for them.
 

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ORTHODOX, You are illogical. You make statements with absolutely no evidence to back them up. In fact, I would go so far as to state that not only are you illogical, but that your existence serves no, or at least very little, purpose.

One more posts that is absolutely not appropriate in the Orthodox forum. You are our guest, you should respect the Orthodox believers, our practices etc. Respect it is a true Christian attitude. Since I has given you warning for another post in this thread, I am not increasing it. But you should take into consideration the fact that even one more post written in such manner may lead you to be banned from the forum.

Dominika, section moderator
 

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Diego said:
ORTHODOX, You are illogical. You make statements with absolutely no evidence to back them up. In fact, I would go so far as to state that not only are you illogical, but that your existence serves no, or at least very little, purpose.
Dude... calm down.
 

xOrthodox4Christx

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Diego said:
ORTHODOX, You are illogical. You make statements with absolutely no evidence to back them up. In fact, I would go so far as to state that not only are you illogical, but that your existence serves no, or at least very little, purpose.
Thank you. Again, reading works wonders. I know you've never done it, but it wouldn't hurt to try at least, would it?
 

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xOrthodox4Christx said:
Not surprising. The Roman Church signed a declaration of joint faith with Lutheranism regarding Sola Fide that contradicted their own Council of Trent.
No, they didn't. IIRC the panzer-cardinal stopped that.
 

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Frankly I'd be surprised if there was any type of agreement these days, beyond vague "we should be one" type stuff, that doesn't violate some council or decision or other. Catholics in particular have made so many conciliar pronouncements that are official or darned near official, that unless I am totally missing how their theological stuffs work, would make most talk impossible, if people were going to be rigorous and treat things as inviolable. For example, from my reading, the anathemas at Trent about the Bible seem just as applicable in condemning Orthodox as it does the Protestants or questioning Catholics it was meant for, but who has ever raised a stink about that being some kind of problem in recent talks?
 

xOrthodox4Christx

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Alpo said:
xOrthodox4Christx said:
Not surprising. The Roman Church signed a declaration of joint faith with Lutheranism regarding Sola Fide that contradicted their own Council of Trent.
No, they didn't. IIRC the panzer-cardinal stopped that.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

??
 

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xOrthodox4Christx said:
Alpo said:
xOrthodox4Christx said:
Not surprising. The Roman Church signed a declaration of joint faith with Lutheranism regarding Sola Fide that contradicted their own Council of Trent.
No, they didn't. IIRC the panzer-cardinal stopped that.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

??
My bad. Apparently Ratzinger stopped the original decleration which led into some further discussions and modifications on the decleration after which was accepted.


Alpo, please remember about proper clergy titles, even for Roman Catholic priests and hierarchs. In two posts in this thread you have violated this rule.

Dominika, section moderator
 

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benjohn146 said:
What else to expect from the organization that splintered from Christianity almost a 1000 years ago. I am surprised that Cardinal Humbert doesn't get the same honors!  :p
There should be a Cardinal Humbert Award.  The Vatican  could posthumously award people like Henry VIII of ENgland, John Huss, Ulrich Zwingli, John Calvin, Nestorius, Arius, Sabellius, and yes, even Martin Luther for splintering Christianity.
 

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Alpo said:
xOrthodox4Christx said:
Not surprising. The Roman Church signed a declaration of joint faith with Lutheranism regarding Sola Fide that contradicted their own Council of Trent.
No, they didn't. IIRC the panzer-cardinal stopped that.
We refer to popes, even ex-popes, by their proper titles here on OC.net. He is referred to properly and correctly as Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI.
 

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scamandrius said:
Alpo said:
xOrthodox4Christx said:
Not surprising. The Roman Church signed a declaration of joint faith with Lutheranism regarding Sola Fide that contradicted their own Council of Trent.
No, they didn't. IIRC the panzer-cardinal stopped that.
We refer to popes, even ex-popes, by their proper titles here on OC.net. He is referred to properly and correctly as Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI.
Would have used that if I was speaking of the time when he was already a Pope. I should have used Cardinal Ratzinger instead of just a surnane.

No disrespect whatsoever intended. I'm just a bit lazy on using titles. Finnish culture is very informal and we tend not to use titles.
 

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There is nothing surprising about any of this at all. "Pope" Francis is a liberal Protestant so it is just as well that he should honour his master Martin Luther.
 

xOrthodox4Christx

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Ilyin said:
There is nothing surprising about any of this at all. "Pope" Francis is a liberal Protestant so it is just as well that he should honour his master Martin Luther.
That's why I would call him Antipope Francis, but apparently we cannot reject the Pope's legitimacy on this forum without breaking the forum rules. So, I tried to keep quiet... tried to. Whatever your opinion is on Pope Francis, it's clear that he's interested only in his vague 'Christian Unity' nonsense, and nothing much else. He'll do anything to get other people to come into communion with Rome.

Also, I think I agree, Vatican II was the finality in the Protestantization in the Roman Catholic Church.
 

xOrthodox4Christx

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scamandrius said:
benjohn146 said:
What else to expect from the organization that splintered from Christianity almost a 1000 years ago. I am surprised that Cardinal Humbert doesn't get the same honors!  :p
There should be a Cardinal Humbert Award.  The Vatican  could posthumously award people like Henry VIII of ENgland, John Huss, Ulrich Zwingli, John Calvin, Nestorius, Arius, Sabellius, and yes, even Martin Luther for splintering Christianity.
If they can canonize "Saint" Mother Theresa, "Saint" John Paul II, "Saint" Thomas More and if they can canonize an anti-Chalcedonian Saint Gregory of Narek, then they pretty much can do anything.
 

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xOrthodox4Christx said:
Ilyin said:
There is nothing surprising about any of this at all. "Pope" Francis is a liberal Protestant so it is just as well that he should honour his master Martin Luther.
That's why I would call him Antipope Francis, but apparently we cannot reject the Pope's legitimacy on this forum without breaking the forum rules. So, I tried to keep quiet... tried to. Whatever your opinion is on Pope Francis, it's clear that he's interested only in his vague 'Christian Unity' nonsense, and nothing much else. He'll do anything to get other people to come into communion with Rome.

Also, I think I agree, Vatican II was the finality in the Protestantization in the Roman Catholic Church.
For a guy who says he's no longer religious, you're sure religious.
 

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I have moved this topic from Christian Newsto Religious Topics section, since the whole thread is full of polemics made by various users. Anyway, please, still respect clergy and people of other denominations in general, showing truly your Christianity. As a Serbian proverb says "You may not like me or accept what I think or what I am, but you have to respect me".

Dominika, section moderator.
 

xOrthodox4Christx

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biro said:
xOrthodox4Christx said:
Ilyin said:
There is nothing surprising about any of this at all. "Pope" Francis is a liberal Protestant so it is just as well that he should honour his master Martin Luther.
That's why I would call him Antipope Francis, but apparently we cannot reject the Pope's legitimacy on this forum without breaking the forum rules. So, I tried to keep quiet... tried to. Whatever your opinion is on Pope Francis, it's clear that he's interested only in his vague 'Christian Unity' nonsense, and nothing much else. He'll do anything to get other people to come into communion with Rome.

Also, I think I agree, Vatican II was the finality in the Protestantization in the Roman Catholic Church.
For a guy who says he's no longer religious, you're sure religious.
Even as an atheist, I can identify the absurdity of the Protestant and Roman Catholic Churches. Those criticisms are independent of my specific religious standing.
 

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"That's why I would call him Antipope Francis, but apparently we cannot reject the Pope's legitimacy on this forum without breaking the forum rules. So, I tried to keep quiet... tried to. Whatever your opinion is on Pope Francis, it's clear that he's interested only in his vague 'Christian Unity' nonsense, and nothing much else. He'll do anything to get other people to come into communion with Rome.

Also, I think I agree, Vatican II was the finality in the Protestantization in the Roman Catholic Church"

Wowzer ! At last some sense is spoken on this site ! :)))
 

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scamandrius said:
Alpo said:
xOrthodox4Christx said:
Not surprising. The Roman Church signed a declaration of joint faith with Lutheranism regarding Sola Fide that contradicted their own Council of Trent.
No, they didn't. IIRC the panzer-cardinal stopped that.
We refer to popes, even ex-popes, by their proper titles here on OC.net. He is referred to properly and correctly as Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI.
I think he should be referred to as the Cardinal formerly known as Pope Benedict.  :laugh:
Seriously though, many Catholics reject the title of pope emeritus. Now he is just a bishop. I think he could be called Cardinal bishop emeritus of Rome. Pope emeritus has never been heard of before in the Catholic church.
 

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xOrthodox4Christx said:
Ilyin said:
There is nothing surprising about any of this at all. "Pope" Francis is a liberal Protestant so it is just as well that he should honour his master Martin Luther.
That's why I would call him Antipope Francis, but apparently we cannot reject the Pope's legitimacy on this forum without breaking the forum rules.
1.  I'm not sure that's an accurate interpretation of the forum rules.   

2.  Why would you, as a returning (?) Orthodox, care about the legitimacy of his election as Pope of Rome?  No one in the Roman Catholic Church seriously contests his election.  He is legitimate for them. 
 

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servulus said:
scamandrius said:
Alpo said:
xOrthodox4Christx said:
Not surprising. The Roman Church signed a declaration of joint faith with Lutheranism regarding Sola Fide that contradicted their own Council of Trent.
No, they didn't. IIRC the panzer-cardinal stopped that.
We refer to popes, even ex-popes, by their proper titles here on OC.net. He is referred to properly and correctly as Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI.
I think he should be referred to as the Cardinal formerly known as Pope Benedict.  :laugh:
Seriously though, many Catholics reject the title of pope emeritus. Now he is just a bishop. I think he could be called Cardinal bishop emeritus of Rome. Pope emeritus has never been heard of before in the Catholic church.
Even more "never been heard of before in the Catholic church" is the title "Cardinal bishop emeritus of Rome".  "Pope Emeritus" at least makes some sense. 
 

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Bishop emeritus is a common title and I was mistaken, I should have said Cardinal Archbishop Emeritus. He's the former bishop of the diocese of Rome. So I think Bishop emeritus applies. I was Catholic during the resignation and the title was a little controversial.
 

Mor Ephrem

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servulus said:
Bishop emeritus is a common title. He's the former bishop of the diocese of Rome. So I think Bishop emeritus applies. I was Catholic during the resignation and the title was a little controversial.
Can you be "Bishop of Rome" without being "Pope"?  Anyway, it was the "Cardinal bishop" part that was especially egregious. 
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
servulus said:
Bishop emeritus is a common title. He's the former bishop of the diocese of Rome. So I think Bishop emeritus applies. I was Catholic during the resignation and the title was a little controversial.
Can you be "Bishop of Rome" without being "Pope"?  Anyway, it was the "Cardinal bishop" part that was especially egregious.
You're correct it should have been Cardinal Archbishop.
 

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He's pope because he's the bishop of Rome. Pope isn't some extra class of holy orders.
 

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servulus said:
Bishop emeritus is a common title and I was mistaken, I should have said Cardinal Archbishop Emeritus. He's the former bishop of the diocese of Rome. So I think Bishop emeritus applies. I was Catholic during the resignation and the title was a little controversial.
Except that Pope Emeritus Benedict is not a Cardinal.  He stopped being a Cardinal when he was elected Pope.  It would be like, then, a man being elevated from Associate Professor to Professor, and subsequently retiring, being termed an Associate Professor Emeritus. 

Also, saying "Cardinal [whatever] Emeritus" would be roughly as novel as "Pope Emeritus."  The only two living former Cardinarls are men who were elected Pope (Pope E. Benedict and Pope Francis).
 

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JamesRottnek said:
servulus said:
Bishop emeritus is a common title and I was mistaken, I should have said Cardinal Archbishop Emeritus. He's the former bishop of the diocese of Rome. So I think Bishop emeritus applies. I was Catholic during the resignation and the title was a little controversial.
Except that Pope Emeritus Benedict is not a Cardinal.  He stopped being a Cardinal when he was elected Pope.  It would be like, then, a man being elevated from Associate Professor to Professor, and subsequently retiring, being termed an Associate Professor Emeritus. 

Also, saying "Cardinal [whatever] Emeritus" would be roughly as novel as "Pope Emeritus."  The only two living former Cardinarls are men who were elected Pope (Pope E. Benedict and Pope Francis).
I see what you mean. However, a bishop emeritus is still a bishop and can still act as a bishop. Pope Benedict is no longer a pope and can't do pope things. This has caused some confusion as to what his current role is. Archbishop Ganswein has caused a stir with suggesting that Pope Benedict didn't intend to resign the entire papacy. If this were true there would be a kind of duel papacy.
 

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servulus said:
Mor Ephrem said:
servulus said:
Bishop emeritus is a common title. He's the former bishop of the diocese of Rome. So I think Bishop emeritus applies. I was Catholic during the resignation and the title was a little controversial.
Can you be "Bishop of Rome" without being "Pope"?  Anyway, it was the "Cardinal bishop" part that was especially egregious.
You're correct it should have been Cardinal Archbishop.
Still inaccurate.  Pope Emeritus is the best option.
 

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servulus said:
However, a bishop emeritus is still a bishop and can still act as a bishop. Pope Benedict is no longer a pope and can't do pope things.
Depends on what you mean by "can still act as a bishop".  He can't exercise jurisdiction, but he can still perform sacramental ministries (e.g., ordinations, confirmations, consecration of churches, etc.) as long as he has permission to do so.

How is this different from a "Pope Emeritus"?  He can't do anything requiring jurisdiction (i.e., "pope things"), but can still perform other ministries as long as he has permission to do so. 

Whatever confusion the "Pope Emeritus" terminology may present seems, to me, to be merely "on paper".  The man walks around the Vatican wearing a white cassock and is addressed by the current Pope as "Your Holiness", but I don't think anyone doubts who is in charge.     
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
servulus said:
However, a bishop emeritus is still a bishop and can still act as a bishop. Pope Benedict is no longer a pope and can't do pope things.
Depends on what you mean by "can still act as a bishop".  He can't exercise jurisdiction, but he can still perform sacramental ministries (e.g., ordinations, confirmations, consecration of churches, etc.) as long as he has permission to do so.

How is this different from a "Pope Emeritus"?  He can't do anything requiring jurisdiction (i.e., "pope things"), but can still perform other ministries as long as he has permission to do so. 

Whatever confusion the "Pope Emeritus" terminology may present seems, to me, to be merely "on paper".  The man walks around the Vatican wearing a white cassock and is addressed by the current Pope as "Your Holiness", but I don't think anyone doubts who is in charge.   
Absolutely.  Especially because, regardless of how a handful might try to portray him, there's some evidence (chiefly an Italian journalist who claims Pope E. Benedict told them this) that the Pope E. wanted to be referred to just as 'Father Ratzinger." 

Now, whether or not that's true, that's essentially how he's acted since resigning as Pope.  He's done practically nothing in public since giving up his office. 
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
servulus said:
Mor Ephrem said:
servulus said:
Bishop emeritus is a common title. He's the former bishop of the diocese of Rome. So I think Bishop emeritus applies. I was Catholic during the resignation and the title was a little controversial.
Can you be "Bishop of Rome" without being "Pope"?  Anyway, it was the "Cardinal bishop" part that was especially egregious.
You're correct it should have been Cardinal Archbishop.
Still inaccurate.  Pope Emeritus is the best option.
Not inaccurate, He is a Cardinal Archbishop. He is not a pope. I think you are making the papacy more than what it is.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
xOrthodox4Christx said:
Ilyin said:
There is nothing surprising about any of this at all. "Pope" Francis is a liberal Protestant so it is just as well that he should honour his master Martin Luther.
That's why I would call him Antipope Francis, but apparently we cannot reject the Pope's legitimacy on this forum without breaking the forum rules.
1.  I'm not sure that's an accurate interpretation of the forum rules.   

2.  Why would you, as a returning (?) Orthodox, care about the legitimacy of his election as Pope of Rome?  No one in the Roman Catholic Church seriously contests his election.  He is legitimate for them.
I disagree. I think if you read Roman Catholic canon law, he's illegitimate according to that canon law. He's most certainly illegitimate according to Orthodox canons.
 

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xOrthodox4Christx said:
Mor Ephrem said:
xOrthodox4Christx said:
Ilyin said:
There is nothing surprising about any of this at all. "Pope" Francis is a liberal Protestant so it is just as well that he should honour his master Martin Luther.
That's why I would call him Antipope Francis, but apparently we cannot reject the Pope's legitimacy on this forum without breaking the forum rules.
1.  I'm not sure that's an accurate interpretation of the forum rules.   

2.  Why would you, as a returning (?) Orthodox, care about the legitimacy of his election as Pope of Rome?  No one in the Roman Catholic Church seriously contests his election.  He is legitimate for them.
I disagree. I think if you read Roman Catholic canon law, he's illegitimate according to that canon law. He's most certainly illegitimate according to Orthodox canons.
As far as I know there are know bishops who reject that he is pope. Even his opponents. If the entire hierarchy accepts that he is the bishop of Rome then he is.
 
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