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Pope Francis reverses Benedict, reimposes restrictions on Latin Mass

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Pope Francis cracked down Friday on the spread of the old Latin Mass, reversing one of Pope Benedict XVI’s signature decisions in a major challenge to traditionalist Catholics who immediately decried it as an attack on them and the ancient liturgy.

Francis reimposed restrictions on celebrating the Latin Mass that Benedict relaxed in 2007, and went further to limit its use. The pontiff said he was taking action because Benedict’s reform had become a source of division in the church and been exploited by Catholics opposed to the Second Vatican Council, the 1960s meetings that modernized the church and its liturgy.
 

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I think it is a big example of an even bigger tendency across the Christian spectrum in which if a person actually believes that love of God & neighbor is the fulfillment of, & not the discarding of, the 10 commandments & it is our salvation by grace through Jesus Christ as we profess according to the Nicene Creed is what is actually to be rejected by false preachers & such “orthodox” & ORTHODOX faith will be the new heresy.
 

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Was he speaking from the chair? ;)
 

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Kinda weird that he is saying he is doing it to promote unity, but isn't this only going to create more division within the RCC? Very sad.
it's not about unity. It's about showing everyone that he's the boss. Remember, he's the "humble pope."
 

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I have some RC friends who like TLM. I feel sorry for them. As for me, glad I didn't convert to Catholicism. Orthodoxy is a mess but Catholicism seems to be even more of a mess.
 

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Get ready for the ranks of the SSPX and various Sedevacantist movements to swell. We might even see a Trad exodus to Eastern Catholicism, although if this Pope’s history is anything to go by, the Byzantine Rite might be in the firing line also.

Most bishops and dioceses have yet to even respond, which makes this taking immediate effect kind of weird. But splits are already materializing. If nothing else it’ll make Catholic ribbing about Orthodox disunity a bit of the old pot on kettle.
 

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Get ready for the ranks of the SSPX and various Sedevacantist movements to swell. We might even see a Trad exodus to Eastern Catholicism, although if this Pope’s history is anything to go by, the Byzantine Rite might be in the firing line also.

Most bishops and dioceses have yet to even respond, which makes this taking immediate effect kind of weird. But splits are already materializing. If nothing else it’ll make Catholic ribbing about Orthodox disunity a bit of the old pot on kettle.
The thing most Trads seem completely unaware of, is that Catholic dogma itself teaches that it's impossible for the Church to ever give defective or harmful rites of worship to the faithful. So all those trads who rage against the new mass as being "not Catholic", are essentially speaking heresy according to their own church's dogmatic teaching. Their only true options are either the new mass is completely legit and holy, or their church has defected.
 

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The thing most Trads seem completely unaware of, is that Catholic dogma itself teaches that it's impossible for the Church to ever give defective or harmful rites of worship to the faithful. So all those trads who rage against the new mass as being "not Catholic", are essentially speaking heresy according to their own church's dogmatic teaching. Their only true options are either the new mass is completely legit and holy, or their church has defected.
Indeed. The sedevacantists have, to my mind, arrived at a loony position, but they are pretty much alone in correctly assessing the gravity of their criticisms. If the new Mass is indeed evil (and it's a lot more than just the Mass that is new), then it is not possible for the true Church to have given it. Either the new Mass is in fact not evil, or the popes who imposed an evil Mass cannot be exercising the authority of the Church and are therefore not real popes. It makes a certain terrible sense.

Of course, it's better to recognize that the whole papal ecclesiology is flawed at its root.
 

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This is the best summary I found in a quick google search.

https://www.ncregister.com/commentaries/pope-francis-traditionis-custodes

IMO: Meh.

My parish might start to see many more trads coming for "refuge", in a way we haven't seen such folks coming in over a decade. They as anyone of course will be welcome. Some such folks grow in faith at least a bit even after a short stay, but others carry enough baggage that don't come back. That said, I don't think we will see much of a wave, due to the nature of the Latin diocese we're in.

What follows is my own perspective, inevitably informed by "Greek Catholicism" - but it's not an attempt to persuade the Orthodox folks on this Orthodox forum that Rome or us "Greek Catholics" are right.

I can sort of understand this revisionary motu propio. Worldwide [well, specifically in Latin America and France, and maybe Italy], in my (very limited and anecdotal experience) the old Mass has a remarkably strong (but by no means exclusive) correlation with right wing, monarchist types and sedevacantists.

In the Anglophone world, especially in the US, it has a strong (but again not exclusive) correlation certainly to the political right, but also even more to "magisterial fidelity", "orthodox catholicism" or however you want to put that idea. And "vocations" are generally strongest in such dioceses. In presbyters 50 and under in the US, IME, there's a corresponding openness to parts of Latin tradition and the "old mass" - even by priests who have very little exposure to it.

So IMO the motu propio is last gasp of a certain trend in the boomer generation - the so-called "spirit of vatican II" folks. The way such folks in the church bureaucracy continue to boogeyman their experience of the 50s is astounding. Given the trend among the presbyterate just mentioned, I'm fairly certain this pendulum will swing the other way again.

I really hope this does not represent a rekindled and redoubled episode of the culture wars in the Latin Church. So, from that perspective, I am concerned the motu propio could potentially be dangerous. Further, such "culture wars" should never have taken place. The near-nikonian total bans on the "old rite" in the Latin Church was pastorally unwise, ahistorical (there are plenty of instances where an old rite existed with the new - it's even the default in cases where there wasn't clear repression by civil or ecclesiastical authority) and needless (I doubt actual demand for the "Old Mass" in the 70s among priests and laity was even 5% of the faithful, so there was no need to ban it vice just let it be, IMO). It's also polarizing - taking what I would imagine to be a very small portion of the church and pushing it away. What's worst is the association of the "new Mass" with "acceptance of Vatican II" - there is nothing in Sacrosanctum Concilium that necessarily mandates everyone adopt a "new Mass", but parish life in ~1960 was on a trajectory of liturgical reform (over multiple rounds from ~1900 to ~1970) from where the Latin church was in 1900 to where that document wanted the Latin Church to go. Linking the "new mass" with acceptance of the council and forcing it was again unwise, unnecessary, and further polarizing.

For my part, the 1970 missal and GIRM in and of itself is better IMO than the 1962 missal and rubrics. (also note that there were major liturgical reforms earlier in the 20th century. And note I'm just talking about book for book, not all the baggage that goes with implementation and abuse in many parishes since 1970s). The fight is not really over "reform" or even "Vatican II" but IMO for how the community worships and what the fruits will be.
From this perspective, the lack of internalization of not just the whole of Latin-rite Catholicism, but even Vatican II itself, in the "spirit of vatican ii" folks and their somtimes almost literally (again) nikonian attitude to the "old mass" is astonishing. People will rightly note that Sacrosanctum concilum calls for the retention of Latin as prudent alongside the vernacular, and highlights the role of Gregorian Chant, etc. I'm told (no link available ATM; will look to verify if folks are interested) that Pope Paul VI along with the 1970 missal sent a book of Gregorian chants to each bishop in the Latin church that he hoped would be included in the "new Mass".

That said, IMO there's a lot that needs to be done on both sides, and there can be sometimes astonishing lack of appreciation or internalization of what they call the "paschal mystery" - to say nothing of the profundity of its expression in Latin Christianity, which represents the legacy of the IMO the largest community - in either camp. On one side, (at least in the US) you might see a focus on parish programs, CCD and academic theology with a drive-through conveniencization of tepid and indifferent worship at the parish (come at your convenience, be it Sat night, Sun AM, Sun PM and we'll even split it into sub groups). On the other side, we see a rampant antimodernism and rightwingism in various forms, extensive focus on various ceremonial (or Gregorian chant) minutiae - all sometimes without even the shallowest internalization of the psalter, to say nothing of the Divine Office (which today is even easier to pray than ever before due to the various apps). For instance, the hymns of Latin Liturgy of the Hours are profound - and IMO core chant repertory. I grew up half in "tradism" and never even read them before I downloaded BM a few months ago, and now

IMO and TLDR: (again as a Greek Catholic; not trying or really interested in persuading any of the Orthodox here about it, and I apologize for saying this, but it's germane in this post for me to assert it) the Latin church as a whole has possibly the widest and profoundest legacy of people who internalized the gospel, grew in Christ and are now with him (maybe such legacies are real meaning of Church Tradition?). I hope this doesn't further polarize folks along this issue; but I don't see it lasting 20-30 years.

Anyway, my opinion.
 

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This is the best summary I found in a quick google search.

https://www.ncregister.com/commentaries/pope-francis-traditionis-custodes

IMO: Meh.

My parish might start to see many more trads coming for "refuge", in a way we haven't seen such folks coming in over a decade. They as anyone of course will be welcome. Some such folks grow in faith at least a bit even after a short stay, but others carry enough baggage that don't come back. That said, I don't think we will see much of a wave, due to the nature of the Latin diocese we're in.

What follows is my own perspective, inevitably informed by "Greek Catholicism" - but it's not an attempt to persuade the Orthodox folks on this Orthodox forum that Rome or us "Greek Catholics" are right.

I can sort of understand this revisionary motu propio. Worldwide [well, specifically in Latin America and France, and maybe Italy], in my (very limited and anecdotal experience) the old Mass has a remarkably strong (but by no means exclusive) correlation with right wing, monarchist types and sedevacantists.

In the Anglophone world, especially in the US, it has a strong (but again not exclusive) correlation certainly to the political right, but also even more to "magisterial fidelity", "orthodox catholicism" or however you want to put that idea. And "vocations" are generally strongest in such dioceses. In presbyters 50 and under in the US, IME, there's a corresponding openness to parts of Latin tradition and the "old mass" - even by priests who have very little exposure to it.

So IMO the motu propio is last gasp of a certain trend in the boomer generation - the so-called "spirit of vatican II" folks. The way such folks in the church bureaucracy continue to boogeyman their experience of the 50s is astounding. Given the trend among the presbyterate just mentioned, I'm fairly certain this pendulum will swing the other way again.

I really hope this does not represent a rekindled and redoubled episode of the culture wars in the Latin Church. So, from that perspective, I am concerned the motu propio could potentially be dangerous. Further, such "culture wars" should never have taken place. The near-nikonian total bans on the "old rite" in the Latin Church was pastorally unwise, ahistorical (there are plenty of instances where an old rite existed with the new - it's even the default in cases where there wasn't clear repression by civil or ecclesiastical authority) and needless (I doubt actual demand for the "Old Mass" in the 70s among priests and laity was even 5% of the faithful, so there was no need to ban it vice just let it be, IMO). It's also polarizing - taking what I would imagine to be a very small portion of the church and pushing it away. What's worst is the association of the "new Mass" with "acceptance of Vatican II" - there is nothing in Sacrosanctum Concilium that necessarily mandates everyone adopt a "new Mass", but parish life in ~1960 was on a trajectory of liturgical reform (over multiple rounds from ~1900 to ~1970) from where the Latin church was in 1900 to where that document wanted the Latin Church to go. Linking the "new mass" with acceptance of the council and forcing it was again unwise, unnecessary, and further polarizing.

For my part, the 1970 missal and GIRM in and of itself is better IMO than the 1962 missal and rubrics. (also note that there were major liturgical reforms earlier in the 20th century. And note I'm just talking about book for book, not all the baggage that goes with implementation and abuse in many parishes since 1970s). The fight is not really over "reform" or even "Vatican II" but IMO for how the community worships and what the fruits will be.
From this perspective, the lack of internalization of not just the whole of Latin-rite Catholicism, but even Vatican II itself, in the "spirit of vatican ii" folks and their somtimes almost literally (again) nikonian attitude to the "old mass" is astonishing. People will rightly note that Sacrosanctum concilum calls for the retention of Latin as prudent alongside the vernacular, and highlights the role of Gregorian Chant, etc. I'm told (no link available ATM; will look to verify if folks are interested) that Pope Paul VI along with the 1970 missal sent a book of Gregorian chants to each bishop in the Latin church that he hoped would be included in the "new Mass".

That said, IMO there's a lot that needs to be done on both sides, and there can be sometimes astonishing lack of appreciation or internalization of what they call the "paschal mystery" - to say nothing of the profundity of its expression in Latin Christianity, which represents the legacy of the IMO the largest community - in either camp. On one side, (at least in the US) you might see a focus on parish programs, CCD and academic theology with a drive-through conveniencization of tepid and indifferent worship at the parish (come at your convenience, be it Sat night, Sun AM, Sun PM and we'll even split it into sub groups). On the other side, we see a rampant antimodernism and rightwingism in various forms, extensive focus on various ceremonial (or Gregorian chant) minutiae - all sometimes without even the shallowest internalization of the psalter, to say nothing of the Divine Office (which today is even easier to pray than ever before due to the various apps). For instance, the hymns of Latin Liturgy of the Hours are profound - and IMO core chant repertory. I grew up half in "tradism" and never even read them before I downloaded BM a few months ago, and now

IMO and TLDR: (again as a Greek Catholic; not trying or really interested in persuading any of the Orthodox here about it, and I apologize for saying this, but it's germane in this post for me to assert it) the Latin church as a whole has possibly the widest and profoundest legacy of people who internalized the gospel, grew in Christ and are now with him (maybe such legacies are real meaning of Church Tradition?). I hope this doesn't further polarize folks along this issue; but I don't see it lasting 20-30 years.

Anyway, my opinion.
The thing Latin mass enthusiasts/Traditionalists do not seem to realize is just how small of a minority movement they really are in the world of Catholicism. Worldwide, there are only about 1-2 million Latin mass goers, including the SSPX. The U.S. has the greatest number of TLM parishes with maybe 150,000 total diocesan parishoners, while even practicing Orthodox numbers in U.S. are about 450,000. So even in a completely non-Orthodox country such as the U.S., Orthodox still outnumber Trad Catholics 4 to 1. And most dont even know we exist!
 

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One of the more loudmouth loons on a well known trad catholic site thinks that the collapse of the "novus ordo church" is imminent and that we are about to behold the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy and the re-establishing of the REAL Catholic Church.

I rode the trad cat crazy train for years so I can understand the mindset. I'm willing to assume that many of them in their private, 3am thoughts KNOW their religious worldview is based on a lie and that the "real" Catholic Church is never coming back. Even when they start to speak and behave like the Protestant Reformers they despise they won't be able to behold their own hypocrisy. The problem is that confronting that truth could lead to a severe psychotic episode. Therefore they lash out at any perceived doctrinal impurity and establish a Traditionalist Contra Mundum mindset.

It was terribly difficult confronting the lies I was living. However it is usually for the best.
 

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The thing most Trads seem completely unaware of, is that Catholic dogma itself teaches that it's impossible for the Church to ever give defective or harmful rites of worship to the faithful. So all those trads who rage against the new mass as being "not Catholic", are essentially speaking heresy according to their own church's dogmatic teaching. Their only true options are either the new mass is completely legit and holy, or their church has defected.
Could you elaborate some on what the lie is upon which trad Catholics base their religious worldview?

Also, if you don't mind saying, what lies were you living that you had to confront?

Many thanks!
 

MarkosC

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The thing Latin mass enthusiasts/Traditionalists do not seem to realize is just how small of a minority movement they really are in the world of Catholicism. Worldwide, there are only about 1-2 million Latin mass goers, including the SSPX. The U.S. has the greatest number of TLM parishes with maybe 150,000 total diocesan parishoners, while even practicing Orthodox numbers in U.S. are about 450,000. So even in a completely non-Orthodox country such as the U.S., Orthodox still outnumber Trad Catholics 4 to 1. And most dont even know we exist!
Agreed. It's marginal in most areas, except in places like the US DIocese of Lincoln NE IM (very limited) E (because of the influence of the FSSP seminary) and in Diocese of Arlington IM (only a bit less limtied) E (especially in the NW sections - Christendom College and a major suburban area has anchored many such folks to the area. Enough so that I've met a few "I grew up trad and left" folks).
 

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The thing most Trads seem completely unaware of, is that Catholic dogma itself teaches that it's impossible for the Church to ever give defective or harmful rites of worship to the faithful. So all those trads who rage against the new mass as being "not Catholic", are essentially speaking heresy according to their own church's dogmatic teaching. Their only true options are either the new mass is completely legit and holy, or their church has defected.
Do you have a source for that? Thanks!
 

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Do you have a source for that? Thanks!
"The Church is infallible in her general discipline. By the term general discipline is understood the laws and practices which belong to the external ordering of the whole Church. Such things would be those which concern either external worship, such as liturgy and rubrics, or the administration of the sacraments…."

"If she [the Church] were able to prescribe or command or tolerate in her discipline something against faith and morals, or something which tended to the detriment of the Church or to the harm of the faithful, she would turn away from her divine mission, which would be impossible."

-(Institutiones Theologiae Dogmaticae, Vol. 1, p. 258)
 

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"The Church is infallible in her general discipline. By the term general discipline is understood the laws and practices which belong to the external ordering of the whole Church. Such things would be those which concern either external worship, such as liturgy and rubrics, or the administration of the sacraments…."

"If she [the Church] were able to prescribe
or command or tolerate in her discipline something against faith and morals, or something which tended to the detriment of the Church or to the harm of the faithful, she would turn away from her divine mission, which would be impossible."


-(Institutiones Theologiae Dogmaticae, Vol. 1, p. 258)
Muchas gracias!!:)
 

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Disappointing. Pope Benedict XVI's Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum bore good fruits for the Catholic Church in the decade or so when it was implemented. Perhaps the Pope will reconsider one day. Some Bishops have already said the TLM can continue in their diocese. Others are opposed.

The thing most Trads seem completely unaware of, is that Catholic dogma itself teaches that it's impossible for the Church to ever give defective or harmful rites of worship to the faithful. So all those trads who rage against the new mass as being "not Catholic", are essentially speaking heresy according to their own church's dogmatic teaching. Their only true options are either the new mass is completely legit and holy, or their church has defected.
Agreed. The New Mass cannot be unCatholic. Most Indult Trads fully agree with that and don't believe it is non-Catholic.

The trads who believe the New Mass is "evil" are a minority imo. There are some deficiencies better expressed in the TLM.

It is better to the say the New Mass obtains some Grace, but the Traditional Mass obtains more Grace. It is a better Liturgy.
 

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Disappointing. Pope Benedict XVI's Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum bore good fruits for the Catholic Church in the decade or so when it was implemented. Perhaps the Pope will reconsider one day. Some Bishops have already said the TLM can continue in their diocese. Others are opposed.



Agreed. The New Mass cannot be unCatholic. Most Indult Trads fully agree with that and don't believe it is non-Catholic.

The trads who believe the New Mass is "evil" are a minority imo. There are some deficiencies better expressed in the TLM.

It is better to the say the New Mass obtains some Grace, but the Traditional Mass obtains more Grace. It is a better Liturgy.
Is it really a minority opinion though? The most widely followed and popular Traditionalist money-makers like Steve Skojec and Taylor Marshall publicly denounce the Novus Ordo mass as defective and harmful in itself and best avoided. Not to mention the SSPX as a whole very much believes this, and they make up about half of all Traditionalists worldwide.

You say you agree that they are wrong, but then your last sentence implies that you also believe it is a defective and inferior rite by saying it gives less grace.
 

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It is better to the say the New Mass obtains some Grace, but the Traditional Mass obtains more Grace. It is a better Liturgy.
That is pretty much saying the Pope handed down defective rites when promulgating the Novus Ordo.
 

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I think many Roman catholics are waking up to the fact that their system of government and their very reason for unity in their own communion is indeed not so. Vatican 2, pachamama, and now the TLM issue, all from one person.
 

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Sad.

I remember Francis coming down harshly on the Franciscans of the Immaculate (an order I was looking at potentially joining in my teenage years) around a decade ago for in part their embrace of traditional Catholicism; will be interesting to see how the FSSP and ICKSP will fair going forward.
 

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I am a Roman Catholic who attends both forms of the Mass, both the Extraordinary Form and the Ordinary Form. Not the place for a theological discussion, but I recommend Fr. Ripperger's article "The Merit of a Mass" for those interested in further study. According to Roman Catholic theology, based on decorum, reverence etc, one Mass can merit more Grace than another. Every valid Mass will always merit at least some Grace though.
 

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All matter has mass.:)
 

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Update ***I saw your previous reply to someone else. Thanks****


The thing most Trads seem completely unaware of, is that Catholic dogma itself teaches that it's impossible for the Church to ever give defective or harmful rites of worship to the faithful. So all those trads who rage against the new mass as being "not Catholic", are essentially speaking heresy according to their own church's dogmatic teaching. Their only true options are either the new mass is completely legit and holy, or their church has defected.
Interesting. Where in Catholic dogma does it say this? I have several friends who are TLM people right now that are totally upset and making these kids of statements about the new mass, but I can't just say what you said without having to point to.
 

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I am a Roman Catholic who attends both forms of the Mass, both the Extraordinary Form and the Ordinary Form. Not the place for a theological discussion, but I recommend Fr. Ripperger's article "The Merit of a Mass" for those interested in further study. According to Roman Catholic theology, based on decorum, reverence etc, one Mass can merit more Grace than another. Every valid Mass will always merit at least some Grace though.
If the Vetus Ordo objectively (not relating to particular circumstances but as a "better Liturgy", as you described) confers more grace on you than the Novus Ordo, then indeed your Supreme Pontiff gave you defective rites.
 

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If the Vetus Ordo objectively (not relating to particular circumstances but as a "better Liturgy", as you described) confers more grace on you than the Novus Ordo, then indeed your Supreme Pontiff gave you defective rites.
Perhaps you haven't encountered the latest dodge against that reasonable conclusion. What the pope gives is not infallibly true, but rather infallibly safe—I have encountered this line of reasoning in a few places. Applied to the liturgy, the reasoning seems to be that the popes in fact *can* introduce defective rites (in the sense of being less of a grace-vehicle than another rite), but these rites are nevertheless infallibly safe to attend. Apparently, the deficiency could grow as long as Rome doesn't issue rites that actually cause damnation.
 

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Perhaps you haven't encountered the latest dodge against that reasonable conclusion. What the pope gives is not infallibly true, but rather infallibly safe—I have encountered this line of reasoning in a few places. Applied to the liturgy, the reasoning seems to be that the popes in fact *can* introduce defective rites (in the sense of being less of a grace-vehicle than another rite), but these rites are nevertheless infallibly safe to attend. Apparently, the deficiency could grow as long as Rome doesn't issue rites that actually cause damnation.
That's a magnanimous cope. The thing is that the idea of the Pope being able to hand down defective rites is an explicitly rejected proposition in RC dogmatics. The theory with which these people came up with basically tries to introduce a new distinction - one between absolute and relative deficiency - to save the proposition. Yet if such a distinction was intended by the authors of Vatican I, they wouldn't have declared it absolutely illicit to disobey the pope in introducing even a relative defect into the rite. But that's just what they did. Simple teleology. For all the lawyering RCs invoke for the position they surely aren't that good at it.
 

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That's a magnanimous cope. The thing is that the idea of the Pope being able to hand down defective rites is an explicitly rejected proposition in RC dogmatics. The theory with which these people came up with basically tries to introduce a new distinction - one between absolute and relative deficiency - to save the proposition. Yet if such a distinction was intended by the authors of Vatican I, they wouldn't have declared it absolutely illicit to disobey the pope in introducing even a relative defect into the rite. But that's just what they did. Simple teleology. For all the lawyering RCs invoke for the position they surely aren't that good at it.
It's even more ridiculous because they usually come up with this distinction to justify their disobedience in the first place.
 

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That's a magnanimous cope. The thing is that the idea of the Pope being able to hand down defective rites is an explicitly rejected proposition in RC dogmatics. The theory with which these people came up with basically tries to introduce a new distinction - one between absolute and relative deficiency - to save the proposition. Yet if such a distinction was intended by the authors of Vatican I, they wouldn't have declared it absolutely illicit to disobey the pope in introducing even a relative defect into the rite. But that's just what they did. Simple teleology. For all the lawyering RCs invoke for the position they surely aren't that good at it.
At this point they are just making up theories out of thin air in order to cope with their cognitive dissonance. And as predicted, they're also rage-posting against Orthodoxy across multiple platforms. Their rage is really toward Francis but they are also triggered by us because we've preserved our traditional liturgies better without a pope.
 

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At this point they are just making up theories out of thin air in order to cope with their cognitive dissonance. And as predicted, they're also rage-posting against Orthodoxy across multiple platforms. Their rage is really toward Francis but they are also triggered by us because we've preserved our traditional liturgies better without a pope.
Which platforms are you seeing this on? My observance isn't at all comprehensive, but on the several I'm paying attention to, any rage I'm seeing is unanimously directed at Francis. Per usual, Orthodoxy doesn't seem to be grabbing their attention on this issue other than a mere awareness of your existence. You're not even entering their paradigm of understanding the problem as they see it.
 

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Which platforms are you seeing this on? My observance isn't at all comprehensive, but on the several I'm paying attention to, any rage I'm seeing is unanimously directed at Francis. Per usual, Orthodoxy doesn't seem to be grabbing their attention on this issue other than a mere awareness of your existence. You're not even entering their paradigm of understanding the problem as they see it.
Are you living beneath a rock? Timothy Gordon would be a recent example of spewing against Orthodoxy for the mere fact that it disproves his position. The Orthodox position has now become widely known and isn't even debated anymore. It's just a sulky "Nuh-uh" at this point. Read this:

 

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Are you living beneath a rock? Timothy Gordon would be a recent example of spewing against Orthodoxy for the mere fact that it disproves his position. The Orthodox position has now become widely known and isn't even debated anymore. It's just a sulky "Nuh-uh" at this point. Read this:

I cannot open the article (states it is not safe, etc... and since I am on a company laptop I won't push my luck)... what does it say? What are they "Nuh-uhing" about?
 

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I cannot open the article (states it is not safe, etc... and since I am on a company laptop I won't push my luck)... what does it say? What are they "Nuh-uhing" about?
RCs know that we are right but they can't handle it. The article is about online apologetics gaining traction in the general religious consciousness of the people.
 

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Are you living beneath a rock? Timothy Gordon would be a recent example of spewing against Orthodoxy for the mere fact that it disproves his position. The Orthodox position has now become widely known and isn't even debated anymore. It's just a sulky "Nuh-uh" at this point. Read this:

This thread is specifically speaking about Catholic reaction to Pope Francis' recent motu proprio. I said my observance was not comprehensive, but I've yet to see anyone blame Orthodoxy or get angry at Orthodoxy because of Francis' restriction of the TLM. If you talk to trad Latins on these forums, their understanding of your existence largely is puerile and ignorant. They don't know what you stand for, they don't know what you believe, other than the Latin polemical caricatures they've grown up with. Your article's author's unrealistically exaggerated optimism for a handful of Cyberdox warriors leading a massive wave of conversions doesn't negate the general ignorance of many trad Latins to anything Eastern.
 

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This thread is specifically speaking about Catholic reaction to Pope Francis' recent motu proprio. I said my observance was not comprehensive, but I've yet to see anyone blame Orthodoxy or get angry at Orthodoxy because of Francis' restriction of the TLM. If you talk to trad Latins on these forums, their understanding of your existence largely is puerile and ignorant. They don't know what you stand for, they don't know what you believe, other than the Latin polemical caricatures they've grown up with. Your article's author's unrealistically exaggerated optimism for a handful of Cyberdox warriors leading a massive wave of conversions doesn't negate the general ignorance of many trad Latins to anything Eastern.
We will see how your misanalysis will hold up.
 
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