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Pope Tawadros "explains" why he visited SUS/LA first before New Jersey

qawe

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=U2I2lz70m4g#t=162
 

qawe

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Severian said:
What a frivolous reason!
I know right.

Although, his strong emphasis on a commitment to genuine Orthodox spirituality at the end of the speech was great.
 

minasoliman

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Just to give a quick summary of translation of his reason.  HH Pope Tawadros chose LA and SUS before NJ because these are the "first two dioceses" established in the United States.

And I agree, I dislike his reason.  "Frivolous" is putting it nicely.  I have my own choice of personal words.

If NJ was even a "diocese", his reason might have been valid.
 

qawe

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Mor Ephrem said:
I didn't even know he was coming to the US before he landed.  :p

What's his schedule?
It was kept secret due to security concerns. Details are still scant.

Schedule:
1. SUS Diocese
2. LA Diocese: http://lacopts.org/news/archpastoral-visit-of-his-holiness-pope-tawadros-ii/
3. San Francisco: until departure to Egypt on 27th October
 

minasoliman

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From what I heard, he is also going to visit the Coptic Church in Washington State.
 

qawe

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minasoliman said:
From what I heard, he is also going to visit the Coptic Church in Washington State.
I got excited for a second as I was reading that ;)
 

minasoliman

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lol...ya, as Mor said, no visit to the Northeast  :p
 

DeniseDenise

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minasoliman said:
From what I heard, he is also going to visit the Coptic Church in Washington State.

yes.  He is visiting Saint Mary's in Lynwood. 

A 'ticket' for the reception is up on the FB of St. George's

https://www.facebook.com/StGeorgeCopticSeattle

 

minasoliman

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Really? A ticket?  How many Copts are there in Washington?
 

DeniseDenise

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minasoliman said:
Really? A ticket?  How many Copts are there in Washington?
No idea. St Mary is a large church ( their website says 300 families)

St.George just opened their newly build church, right near my parish (lots of folks from my parish went to the open house!). So it's another 200 families based on what I heard about the open house.

So that's two decent sized parishes in a 30 min radius by car.
 

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This photo makes me so angry.  Pope Tawadros sitting on the throne that is rightfully Anba Youssef's.  Would this happen in any other Orthodox jurisdiction?

Source: http://www.copticworld.org/articles/5349/
 

minasoliman

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qawe said:
This photo makes me so angry.  Pope Tawadros sitting on the throne that is rightfully Anba Youssef's.  Would this happen in any other Orthodox jurisdiction?

Source: http://www.copticworld.org/articles/5349/
I'm not sure if you should be angry.  Every bishop, diocesan or general, would insist on the Markian throne be used for the Pope
 

qawe

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minasoliman said:
qawe said:
This photo makes me so angry.  Pope Tawadros sitting on the throne that is rightfully Anba Youssef's.  Would this happen in any other Orthodox jurisdiction?

Source: http://www.copticworld.org/articles/5349/
I'm not sure if you should be angry.  Every bishop, diocesan or general, would insist on the Markian throne be used for the Pope
Really?  How ancient is this practice?
 

minasoliman

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I'm not sure, but it's contemporary "etiquette" at least.
 

qawe

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If someone knows how ancient this practice is, please post here!
 

AntoniousNikolas

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qawe said:
minasoliman said:
From what I heard, he is also going to visit the Coptic Church in Washington State.
I got excited for a second as I was reading that ;)
I know, right?  They could've received His Holiness with Evlogimenos set to this beat - because it's culturally relevant and youth friendly - stepping in like a drill team.  It would've been awesome!  ;D
 

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Antonious Nikolas said:
qawe said:
minasoliman said:
From what I heard, he is also going to visit the Coptic Church in Washington State.
I got excited for a second as I was reading that ;)
I know, right?  They could've received His Holiness with Evlogimenos set to this beat - because it's culturally relevant and youth friendly - stepping in like a drill team.  It would've been awesome!  ;D
That might not be necessary.  I think their precious youth might just be able to cope with one Orthodox service every 10 years.  :D
 

Mor Ephrem

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minasoliman said:
I'm not sure if you should be angry.  Every bishop, diocesan or general, would insist on the Markian throne be used for the Pope
As a demonstration of their own respect for the Primate of their Synod, yes, I can't imagine any bishop not doing so. 

We have to remember that the episcopal throne is not primarily the throne of the bishop of the place in which it is located.  The head of every local Church is Christ, and the chair represents his headship, which is why his icon is often found there.  It also serves as the throne of the bishop who presides over that local Church, but it is not his exclusively in the sense that absolutely no one else is allowed to sit there no matter what.  As a sign of respect for senior bishops, episcopal guests, etc., he could offer it to someone else: it is his prerogative to do so without implying in any way a change in the structure of the local Church. 

If this is so, it is all the more the case when dealing with the Primate, who enjoys a canonical relationship with the bishops of the Synod of which he is the first.  In such cases, it is not merely an honour shown to a visitor, but the recognition of the relationship between that local Church and the local Church of the Primate, and by extension the other local Churches which recognise his primacy.  This is hardly an innovation.   
 

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qawe said:
This photo makes me so angry.  Pope Tawadros sitting on the throne that is rightfully Anba Youssef's.  Would this happen in any other Orthodox jurisdiction?
I thought you were going to be angry about the throne not being behind the altar, which is the most ancient tradition. This is a Byzantization of your church, and a late and problematic one at that. Who does he think he is, the Chalcedonian Emperor?!??!?!
 

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Alveus Lacuna said:
qawe said:
This photo makes me so angry.  Pope Tawadros sitting on the throne that is rightfully Anba Youssef's.  Would this happen in any other Orthodox jurisdiction?
I thought you were going to be angry about the throne not being behind the altar, which is the most ancient tradition.
There is that, yes...sitting Chalcedonian sitters and all that.   
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
minasoliman said:
I'm not sure if you should be angry.  Every bishop, diocesan or general, would insist on the Markian throne be used for the Pope
As a demonstration of their own respect for the Primate of their Synod, yes, I can't imagine any bishop not doing so. 

We have to remember that the episcopal throne is not primarily the throne of the bishop of the place in which it is located.  The head of every local Church is Christ, and the chair represents his headship, which is why his icon is often found there.  It also serves as the throne of the bishop who presides over that local Church, but it is not his exclusively in the sense that absolutely no one else is allowed to sit there no matter what.  As a sign of respect for senior bishops, episcopal guests, etc., he could offer it to someone else: it is his prerogative to do so without implying in any way a change in the structure of the local Church. 

If this is so, it is all the more the case when dealing with the Primate, who enjoys a canonical relationship with the bishops of the Synod of which he is the first.  In such cases, it is not merely an honour shown to a visitor, but the recognition of the relationship between that local Church and the local Church of the Primate, and by extension the other local Churches which recognise his primacy.  This is hardly an innovation. 
Thanks for the info, Mor.
 

minasoliman

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Mor Ephrem said:
minasoliman said:
I'm not sure if you should be angry.  Every bishop, diocesan or general, would insist on the Markian throne be used for the Pope
As a demonstration of their own respect for the Primate of their Synod, yes, I can't imagine any bishop not doing so. 

We have to remember that the episcopal throne is not primarily the throne of the bishop of the place in which it is located.  The head of every local Church is Christ, and the chair represents his headship, which is why his icon is often found there.  It also serves as the throne of the bishop who presides over that local Church, but it is not his exclusively in the sense that absolutely no one else is allowed to sit there no matter what.  As a sign of respect for senior bishops, episcopal guests, etc., he could offer it to someone else: it is his prerogative to do so without implying in any way a change in the structure of the local Church. 

If this is so, it is all the more the case when dealing with the Primate, who enjoys a canonical relationship with the bishops of the Synod of which he is the first.  In such cases, it is not merely an honour shown to a visitor, but the recognition of the relationship between that local Church and the local Church of the Primate, and by extension the other local Churches which recognise his primacy.  This is hardly an innovation. 
This isn't always the case.  Usually, more so than otherwise, the icon is of St. Mark the Evangelist, not Christ.  Nevertheless, I didn't want to take away the rest of your great post here, which doesn't change your point.

On second thought, maybe I'm wrong...  :p
 

Mor Ephrem

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minasoliman said:
Mor Ephrem said:
minasoliman said:
I'm not sure if you should be angry.  Every bishop, diocesan or general, would insist on the Markian throne be used for the Pope
As a demonstration of their own respect for the Primate of their Synod, yes, I can't imagine any bishop not doing so. 

We have to remember that the episcopal throne is not primarily the throne of the bishop of the place in which it is located.  The head of every local Church is Christ, and the chair represents his headship, which is why his icon is often found there.  It also serves as the throne of the bishop who presides over that local Church, but it is not his exclusively in the sense that absolutely no one else is allowed to sit there no matter what.  As a sign of respect for senior bishops, episcopal guests, etc., he could offer it to someone else: it is his prerogative to do so without implying in any way a change in the structure of the local Church. 

If this is so, it is all the more the case when dealing with the Primate, who enjoys a canonical relationship with the bishops of the Synod of which he is the first.  In such cases, it is not merely an honour shown to a visitor, but the recognition of the relationship between that local Church and the local Church of the Primate, and by extension the other local Churches which recognise his primacy.  This is hardly an innovation. 
This isn't always the case.  Usually, more so than otherwise, the icon is of St. Mark the Evangelist, not Christ.  Nevertheless, I didn't want to take away the rest of your great post here, which doesn't change your point.

On second thought, maybe I'm wrong...  :p
I haven't been to enough Coptic churches with thrones in order to know whether I'm right about whose icon is enshrined in them, so maybe I'm wrong that it's Christ and not St Mark.  But the photo above has an icon of Christ on the throne, and it seems to go along with my general point.

If Coptic thrones typically use the icon of St Mark instead of the icon of Christ, it seems to me like it is more fitting for the Pope to sit there than any other bishop, even the ruling bishop of the diocese.  In that case, I think it would be better to have a throne without an icon and "not even go there".  :p
 

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One of the reasons I heard he's not visiting the north east is because he's not down with the foreign policy of the president in DC! I also think the issues, at least with some of the DC churches were a turn off for him! I'm personally not sure why he isn't going to NY or NJ!
 

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I think HH may also be visiting Las Vegas.  Maybe someone can confirm?
 

AntoniousNikolas

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Tonedawg said:
One of the reasons I heard he's not visiting the north east is because he's not down with the foreign policy of the president in DC!
I understand that His Holiness has to walk a fine line and not upset President al-Sisi - who has been nicer to the Copts than pretty much any Egyptian ruler in recent history - and I understand it might be awkward for him to visit the East Coast without officially greeting the President of the United States BUT I think that so long as "unincorporated Deadwood" is officially part of His Holiness' territory and there is no enthroned bishop in the area to either: a) provide pastoral care for the people or b) drop the hammer on the heterodox priests and servants rampant in the area, it's on His Holiness to do both.  He can't be our pastor from half a world away without - you know - actually being our pastor.

Tonedawg said:
I also think the issues, at least with some of the DC churches were a turn off for him!
I agree, but this is all the more reason that he should visit the place and take care of business.  It's not the place has never been investigated and found to be in error.  How long after diagnosis will this wound be allowed to fester?

Tonedawg said:
I'm personally not sure why he isn't going to NY or NJ!
The East Coast is pretty much a package deal.  Going to these places would be pretty much the same thing as going to DC.  Which really stinks for NJ since we're supposed to be held as a territory of the Pope in perpetuity, even after areas like DC get a bishop.

qawe said:
I think HH may also be visiting Las Vegas.  Maybe someone can confirm?
No clue.
 

Iconodule

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Come on, are we seriously asking why someone doesn't want to go to New Jersey?
 

Mor Ephrem

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Antonious Nikolas said:
Tonedawg said:
One of the reasons I heard he's not visiting the north east is because he's not down with the foreign policy of the president in DC!
I understand that His Holiness has to walk a fine line and not upset President al-Sisi - who has been nicer to the Copts than pretty much any Egyptian ruler in recent history - and I understand it might be awkward for him to visit the East Coast without officially greeting the President of the United States BUT I think that so long as "unincorporated Deadwood" is officially part of His Holiness' territory and there is no enthroned bishop in the area to either: a) provide pastoral care for the people or b) drop the hammer on the heterodox priests and servants rampant in the area, it's on His Holiness to do both.  He can't be our pastor from half a world away without - you know - actually being our pastor.
Why would the Pope have to visit the President of the United States if visiting the East Coast?  The Pope is not a head of state.  Even if he's considered a sort of ethnarch, if he has no business with the President, why would it be considered necessary to visit anyway?  Our Catholicoi have visited the US for decades without, to my knowledge, ever setting foot in the White House, even when making pastoral visits to DC.   
 

Second Chance

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DeniseDenise said:
Iconodule said:
Come on, are we seriously asking why someone doesn't want to go to New Jersey?

*offended*

No treats for you! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Agreed. There are plenty of nice places in New Jersey: Rehoboth Beach, Chester, Washington Crossing...
 

AntoniousNikolas

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Iconodule said:
Come on, are we seriously asking why someone doesn't want to go to New Jersey?

And what little corner of paradise are you from again, tough guy?

Mor Ephrem said:
Why would the Pope have to visit the President of the United States if visiting the East Coast?  The Pope is not a head of state.  Even if he's considered a sort of ethnarch, if he has no business with the President, why would it be considered necessary to visit anyway?  Our Catholicoi have visited the US for decades without, to my knowledge, ever setting foot in the White House, even when making pastoral visits to DC. 
I agree.  I'm just telling you what every Copt "in the know" has articulated regarding the "real reasons" behind the Pope's decision not to visit the East Coast at this time.

Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
Agreed. There are plenty of nice places in New Jersey: Rehoboth Beach, Chester, Washington Crossing...
...says the man from the land of outhouses and possum fricassee.

 

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I am from the north east, and even I don't want to be in NJ. =P

The Pope was here in the Dallas area Tuesday night at St. Philopateer Coptic in Richardson (near Dallas), and I believe he was at St. Mary's in Colleyville the next morning.

I go to Philopateer for bible study and St. Mary's on Sunday. I was offered a ticket to go, but I thought it would probably be best to not go because I am still just a visitor and I knew there was going to be TONS of people there, so why take up a space one of the faithful can have?

I did hear he gave out nice pens as a gift to everyone though, lol.
 
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