Pope to consecrate Russia and Ukraine to Immaculate Heart of Mary

[melkite]

View attachment 20903

The corner rad-trads find themselves in is getting increasingly smaller.

 

[Deacon Lance]

I understand Pope Francis' desire to do something but given the ecumenical issues at play here wouldn't it make more sense to entrust Russia and Ukraine to the protection of the Theotokos anew without the immaculate heart bit?

Given that Archbishop Sviatoslav is on Russia’s hit list I think ecumenical issues with the MP are of little concern at this point.

 

[Xavier]

I am Very Happy that the Holy Father is Consecrating Russia to the Immaculate Heart of the Theotokos. I believe the Collegial Consecration will bring Peace, just as Heaven promised. Virtually all Catholics I know, both Traditional Catholics, and other Catholics, are overjoyed to hear this News.

 

[ialmisry]

The Catholic Church can erect patriarchates for its faithful as it sees fit. We don't need Orthodox approval for them to be valid.

The Orthodox=the Catholic Church. If you want the real thing, the only place to come. St. John 6:68

The Vatican, like the Protestants or any other ecclesiastical community can do and claim anything it likes.

 

[ialmisry]

I am Very Happy that the Holy Father is Consecrating Russia to the Immaculate Heart of the Theotokos. I believe the Collegial Consecration will bring Peace, just as Heaven promised. Virtually all Catholics I know, both Traditional Catholics, and other Catholics, are overjoyed to hear this News.

A little late, as Grand Duke St. Yaroslav around placed Russia, Ukraine and Belarus under her care almost a millennium ago, and Pat. Kirill has asked everyone to pray the Akathist seeking her intercession for peace in Ukraine. But then again, that is to all of her, not just a body part.

 

[Claudius]

View attachment 20903

Well, what do you know. It won't change my low opinion of the man in general, but he's doing something a lot of Catholic faithful care about and actually taking the time to do it right, which is more than I expected. Good for him!

The corner rad-trads find themselves in is getting increasingly smaller.

Why do you say that? It's traditionalists who have been saying most loudly that the consecration needs to happen. Those I know and spoke with personally about this are quite pleased overall. Hesitantly so because this Pope has shown a lax attitude toward rigorosity in the past, but if he does it with the bishops as planned in that letter, I think he'll satisfy most. Broken clock and all that. Doesn't change anything about other issues.

Only the sedevacantists (of which I know none, so I can only guess) will still say he isn't a real Pope so it's invalid anyway, or something to that extent, and surely a few individuals are going to go hunting for that one dastardly bishop who slept in or got caught in traffic and thus invalidated the whole thing, but on the whole I don't expect to see much of this.

 

[Luke]

Seems like consecrating a country is like going into a swimming pool, forcibly dunking everybody, and then telling them they are all baptized and saved.

 

[melkite]

The Orthodox=the Catholic Church. If you want the real thing, the only place to come. St. John 6:68

The Vatican, like the Protestants or any other ecclesiastical community can do and claim anything it likes.

Arf arf

 

[melkite]

Why do you say that? It's traditionalists who have been saying most loudly that the consecration needs to happen. Those I know and spoke with personally about this are quite pleased overall. Hesitantly so because this Pope has shown a lax attitude toward rigorosity in the past, but if he does it with the bishops as planned in that letter, I think he'll satisfy most. Broken clock and all that. Doesn't change anything about other issues.

Only the sedevacantists (of which I know none, so I can only guess) will still say he isn't a real Pope so it's invalid anyway, or something to that extent, and surely a few individuals are going to go hunting for that one dastardly bishop who slept in or got caught in traffic and thus invalidated the whole thing, but on the whole I don't expect to see much of this.

A lot of online trads are already bickering about this or that required component not being fulfilled. Some say the consecration has to be Russia and Russia alone. Others are saying it has to be all the bishops, not just the Pope. Now, with this, there are people saying that it has to be a papal order, not a papal invitation, that all the other bishops participate. So I said their corner is getting smaller because they're having fewer and fewer straws to grasp at to say that this doesn't meet all the conditions they say are required. And if Pope Francis tomorrow issues a decree requiring all bishops to participate? I guess they'll either be happy or have to admit they were sedevacantists all along.

 

[JTLoganville]

I understand Pope Francis' desire to do something but given the ecumenical issues at play here wouldn't it make more sense to entrust Russia and Ukraine to the protection of the Theotokos anew without the immaculate heart bit?

Small Compline with Paraklesis would allow the Church to breathe and pray with both of her lungs.

 

[biro]

My mother and my late aunt (rest in peace) did come to church for my chrismation.

Every time I think about that, I think the RCC is not lost.

All is never lost. Pray for them.

 

[Claudius]

A lot of online trads are already bickering about this or that required component not being fulfilled. Some say the consecration has to be Russia and Russia alone. Others are saying it has to be all the bishops, not just the Pope. Now, with this, there are people saying that it has to be a papal order, not a papal invitation, that all the other bishops participate. So I said their corner is getting smaller because they're having fewer and fewer straws to grasp at to say that this doesn't meet all the conditions they say are required. And if Pope Francis tomorrow issues a decree requiring all bishops to participate? I guess they'll either be happy or have to admit they were sedevacantists all along.

Ah, now I understand. The Catholic traditionalists I know are more what you'd call normal laypeople (and one priest), so I probably get a very different impression than one would from looking through online discussion boards.

The "Russia and Russia alone" argument strikes me as odd since the Ukraine was an integral part of Russia when Fatima happened. If I were going to make a stink about that, not including the rest of the pre-1917 Russian Empire would seem more questionable than including Ukraine. Invitation vs order is just splitting hairs unless any bishops actually decline the invitation.

At some point the Pope has to decide when he's done enough. The more bases he covers, the more Catholics will accept this as legitimate. Those who want to be dissatisfied with everything will find a way to be.

 

[Xavier]

A little late, as Grand Duke St. Yaroslav around placed Russia, Ukraine and Belarus under her care almost a millennium ago, and Pat. Kirill has asked everyone to pray the Akathist seeking her intercession for peace in Ukraine. But then again, that is to all of her, not just a body part.

Well, no doubt the Blessed Mother, the Holy Theotokos, has always been loved in Holy Rus ever since Russia was baptized, which is all good and wonderful. I recall hearing Russia had more shrines to the Mother of God than any other nation in happy days of old. But because of Communist and leftist persecutions of Christians in the erstwhile Soviet Union after the Bolsheviks unfortunately gained control of Russia, Catholics believe, Heaven requested a Special Consecration of the Russian Nation. It is that Consecration the Pope is trying to fulfil now, in obedience to Heaven.

During the March 25th, 1984 Consecration, even Russian Orthodox Bishops joined in. And Heaven evidently accepted that Consecration, as the downfall of Communism in the Soviet Union happened less than 10 years later, beginning on Dec 25th, 1991. No coincidence but Providence.

"On December 25, 1991, the Soviet hammer and sickle flag lowered for the last time over the Kremlin, thereafter replaced by the Russian tricolor. Earlier in the day, Mikhail Gorbachev resigned his post as president of the Soviet Union, leaving Boris Yeltsin as president of the newly independent Russian state. People all over the world watched in amazement at this relatively peaceful transition from former Communist monolith into multiple separate nations." https://history.state.gov/milestones/1989-1992/collapse-soviet-union This was a Divine Miracle imho, obtained by all the Catholic and Orthodox Bishops together, and the faithful in communion with them, through God's Grace and Our Lady's Love.

Since this is Christian News, I don't want to debate anything here. We can discuss more in the relevant sub-forum if you wish. All I'll say is imho, we both, Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians together, have much to hope for from Joint Prayers and Collegial Consecration to Jesus and Mary. Btw, it is not about a "Body Part" of the Holy Theotokos, but a Consecration to the Maternal Love that She has for God and for all of us.

God Bless.

 

[Dominika]

So they don't know their own catechism. OK.

Neither liturgical texts (at least oroginal ones)...

 

[Dominika]

Btw, it is not about a "Body Part" of the Holy Theotokos, but a Consecration to the Maternal Love that She has for God and for all of us.

If so, it has been done ages ago. And even renewed. So it is something contradictory.

 

[Glyphwright]

Why not renew it again this year?

 

[Dominika]

Why not renew it again this year?

It can be. But in true faith (not one part of body of the Theotokos) and by local people.

 

[Deacon Lance]

It can be. But in true faith (not one part of body of the Theotokos) and by local people.

It will be.

 

[Dominika]

It will be.

It won't. And it's obvious in the Orthodox Christian forum

 

[RaphaCam]

You forgot the angle where Sr Lucia was replaced by a body double at some point, thus discarding her apparent affirmation.

No, they'd never do something like that!

 

[RaphaCam]

Seems like consecrating a country is like going into a swimming pool, forcibly dunking everybody, and then telling them they are all baptized and saved.

The problem is the ideology. Fatima is a really big deal. Maybe bigger than we know (see St. Luke 21:11).

 

[Serge]

I'm not cheering for this move.

 

[mcarmichael]

I'm not cheering for this move.

If I understand it, it's the Pope washing his hands, isn't it? Either that or excommunication.

 

[AntonI]

Why do we care? Rome can consecrate Russia all it wants (and to be honest, Patriarch Cyril needs the prayers given his horrendous behaviour over the war) - if we are of the view that the Orthodox Church is the Church of Christ, we should just shrug this away

 

[Katechon]

The Catholic Church can erect patriarchates for its faithful as it sees fit. We don't need Orthodox approval for them to be valid.

Pretending that Vatican-bound glorified altar servers of lesser status than even a vicar bishop in the Church are Patriarchs all while there are legitimate Patriarchs exercising authority in the Church is still a bit silly in my book.

 

[LizaSymonenko]

It is an insult... but, we have nothing to fear from him/them.

 

[Cavaradossi]

This is one of the goofier aspects of post-schism Western Christianity that I wish they would have left in the dustbin of history after the Second Vatican Council. Alas, it was not to be.

 

[Claudius]

This is one of the goofier aspects of post-schism Western Christianity that I wish they would have left in the dustbin of history after the Second Vatican Council. Alas, it was not to be.

Considering they basically threw their whole religion into the dustbin with that council, it wouldn't have been surprising. I guess apparitions are one of the few vestiges they chose to keep, or just didn't think to get rid of.

 

[Katechon]

Considering they basically threw their whole religion into the dustbin with that council, it wouldn't have been surprising. I guess apparitions are one of the few vestiges they chose to keep, or just didn't think to get rid of.

They are extremely important for Trads to stabilize their defect ecclesiology with.

 

[Gloria Tibi Trinitas]

They are extremely important for Trads to stabilize their defect ecclesiology with.

Like the "prophecy" that Rome will become apostate? How that could possibly fit with Vatican 1 is beyond me. Might as well be Orthodox and admit the papacy apostatized a millennium ago.

 

[Katechon]

Like the "prophecy" that Rome will become apostate? How that could possibly fit with Vatican 1 is beyond me. Might as well be Orthodox and admit the papacy apostatized a millennium ago.

It is precisely to avoid this conclusion why they cling to this apparitionism as much. It also marks them as a cult.

 

[Deacon Lance]

Pope’s Act of Consecration of Russia and Ukraine to Our Lady - Vatican News

The Holy See Press Office releases the official text of the Act of Consecration of Russia and Ukraine to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, which Pope ...

www.vaticannews.va

Text of prayer to be used:

O Mary, Mother of God and our Mother, in this time of trial we turn to you. As our Mother, you love us and know us: no concern of our hearts is hidden from you. Mother of mercy, how often we have experienced your watchful care and your peaceful presence! You never cease to guide us to Jesus, the Prince of Peace.
Yet we have strayed from that path of peace. We have forgotten the lesson learned from the tragedies of the last century, the sacrifice of the millions who fell in two world wars. We have disregarded the commitments we made as a community of nations. We have betrayed peoples’ dreams of peace and the hopes of the young. We grew sick with greed, we thought only of our own nations and their interests, we grew indifferent and caught up in our selfish needs and concerns. We chose to ignore God, to be satisfied with our illusions, to grow arrogant and aggressive, to suppress innocent lives and to stockpile weapons. We stopped being our neighbour’s keepers and stewards of our common home. We have ravaged the garden of the earth with war and by our sins we have broken the heart of our heavenly Father, who desires us to be brothers and sisters. We grew indifferent to everyone and everything except ourselves. Now with shame we cry out: Forgive us, Lord!
Holy Mother, amid the misery of our sinfulness, amid our struggles and weaknesses, amid the mystery of iniquity that is evil and war, you remind us that God never abandons us, but continues to look upon us with love, ever ready to forgive us and raise us up to new life. He has given you to us and made your Immaculate Heart a refuge for the Church and for all humanity. By God’s gracious will, you are ever with us; even in the most troubled moments of our history, you are there to guide us with tender love.
We now turn to you and knock at the door of your heart. We are your beloved children. In every age you make yourself known to us, calling us to conversion. At this dark hour, help us and grant us your comfort. Say to us once more: “Am I not here, I who am your Mother?”
You are able to untie the knots of our hearts and of our times. In you we place our trust. We are confident that, especially in moments of trial, you will not be deaf to our supplication and will come to our aid.
That is what you did at Cana in Galilee, when you interceded with Jesus and he worked the first of his signs. To preserve the joy of the wedding feast, you said to him: “They have no wine” (Jn 2:3). Now, O Mother, repeat those words and that prayer, for in our own day we have run out of the wine of hope, joy has fled, fraternity has faded. We have forgotten our humanity and squandered the gift of peace. We opened our hearts to violence and destructiveness. How greatly we need your maternal help!
Therefore, O Mother, hear our prayer.
Star of the Sea, do not let us be shipwrecked in the tempest of war.
Ark of the New Covenant, inspire projects and paths of reconciliation.
Queen of Heaven, restore God’s peace to the world.
Eliminate hatred and the thirst for revenge, and teach us forgiveness.
Free us from war, protect our world from the menace of nuclear weapons.
Queen of the Rosary, make us realize our need to pray and to love.
Queen of the Human Family, show people the path of fraternity.
Queen of Peace, obtain peace for our world.
O Mother, may your sorrowful plea stir our hardened hearts. May the tears you shed for us make this valley parched by our hatred blossom anew. Amid the thunder of weapons, may your prayer turn our thoughts to peace. May your maternal touch soothe those who suffer and flee from the rain of bombs. May your motherly embrace comfort those forced to leave their homes and their native land. May your Sorrowful Heart move us to compassion and inspire us to open our doors and to care for our brothers and sisters who are injured and cast aside.
Holy Mother of God, as you stood beneath the cross, Jesus, seeing the disciple at your side, said: “Behold your son” (Jn 19:26.) In this way he entrusted each of us to you. To the disciple, and to each of us, he said: “Behold, your Mother” (v. 27). Mother Mary, we now desire to welcome you into our lives and our history. At this hour, a weary and distraught humanity stands with you beneath the cross, needing to entrust itself to you and, through you, to consecrate itself to Christ. The people of Ukraine and Russia, who venerate you with great love, now turn to you, even as your heart beats with compassion for them and for all those peoples decimated by war, hunger, injustice and poverty.

Therefore, Mother of God and our Mother, to your Immaculate Heart we solemnly entrust and consecrate ourselves, the Church and all humanity, especially Russia and Ukraine. Accept this act that we carry out with confidence and love. Grant that war may end and peace spread throughout the world. The “Fiat” that arose from your heart opened the doors of history to the Prince of Peace. We trust that, through your heart, peace will dawn once more. To you we consecrate the future of the whole human family, the needs and expectations of every people, the anxieties and hopes of the world.
Through your intercession, may God’s mercy be poured out on the earth and the gentle rhythm of peace return to mark our days. Our Lady of the “Fiat," on whom the Holy Spirit descended, restore among us the harmony that comes from God. May you, our “living fountain of hope,” water the dryness of our hearts. In your womb Jesus took flesh; help us to foster the growth of communion. You once trod the streets of our world; lead us now on the paths of peace. Amen.

 

[Claudius]

(Spoilers to conserve page space.)

Spoiler: Re: Katechon

They are extremely important for Trads to stabilize their defect ecclesiology with.
...
It is precisely to avoid this conclusion why they cling to this apparitionism as much. It also marks them as a cult.

To be fair, we shouldn't group them all together as they don't all share the same ecclesiology/beliefs by any means. Compared to ours certainly all in error, but in varying degrees that in my view make a big difference. The SSPX-types, who believe in Fatima without making a dogma out of it and instead base their positions on strict Thomism, have the most logically-consistent views I've come across in Western Christianity. Of course I'd prefer that they became Orthodox, but if (as a mental exercise) you take as given that you can only see through a thoroughly westernized phronema (Aquinas, Anselm, etc.) and can't bring yourself to reverse course on 1054, everything they say and do suddenly makes perfect sense.

Sedevacantists on the other hand, who cling to Fatima like their faith depended on it, which in many ways it does, very much fit the profile of the people you're criticizing as a cult and IMO deserve every word of it.

Pretty much anything is more consistent than what comes out of the Vatican II cult, though, and its assertion that the latest council and the current Pope must be obeyed even when they contradict their predecessors, prior doctrine, and formal anathemas, which takes Papism to a new level beyond what even Vatican I said about conditional infallibility (although paradoxically if he dares contradict secular progressive philosophy he's apparently just a man after all).

Thankfully we in the East are smart enough not to declare our councils "Ecumenical" before they even get started provided a particular bishop signs off on it, saving us a lot of problems when what comes out of one turns out to be Modernist rubbish. Whenever I think about V2 I can't help feeling the purest relief at being Orthodox.

Spoiler: Re: Gloria Tibi Trinitas

Might as well be Orthodox and admit the papacy apostatized a millennium ago.

I'm all for this, but not everyone feels at home in our beloved eastern Liturgy. If we realistically want it to happen we'd need to foster a real Western Rite Orthodoxy, and not just the pseudo-WR with eastern aspects added like we've been doing. That would mean using a pre-schism western rite of Mass, in Latin, with no filioque and no easternized prayers or rubrics. We won't get them to come to us if we insist on eastern norms even in cases where the western ones also predate the schism by centuries, which in addition to things like no vernacular Mass also likely means accepting a celibacy-only policy for WR clergy.

If we could get that up and running, Catholics who rightly feel betrayed by the Vatican II cult could find a home with us that outwardly resembles their old one as it was pre-schism with proper ecclesiology and theology.

 

[Katechon]

To be fair, we shouldn't group them all together as they don't all share the same ecclesiology/beliefs by any means. Compared to ours certainly all in error, but in varying degrees that in my view make a big difference. The SSPX-types, who believe in Fatima without making a dogma out of it and instead base their positions on strict Thomism, have the most logically-consistent views I've come across in Western Christianity. Of course I'd prefer that they became Orthodox, but if (as a mental exercise) you take as given that you can only see through a thoroughly westernized phronema (Aquinas, Anselm, etc.) and can't bring yourself to reverse course on 1054, everything they say and do suddenly makes perfect sense.

Well, thomistic epistemology is essentially subjectivist and feeds to the narcissism of the person applying it. It's not a coherent theological system however, which is one of the reason the West degenerated and fractured into atheism.

Pretty much anything is more consistent than what comes out of the Vatican II cult, though,

No. And that is precisely the point.

I'm all for this, but not everyone feels at home in our beloved eastern Liturgy. If we realistically want it to happen we'd need to foster a real Western Rite Orthodoxy, and not just the pseudo-WR with eastern aspects added like we've been doing. That would mean using a pre-schism western rite of Mass, in Latin, with no filioque and no easternized prayers or rubrics. We won't get them to come to us if we insist on eastern norms even in cases where the western ones also predate the schism by centuries, which in addition to things like no vernacular Mass also likely means accepting a celibacy-only policy for WR clergy.

If we could get that up and running, Catholics who rightly feel betrayed by the Vatican II cult could find a home with us that outwardly resembles their old one as it was pre-schism with proper ecclesiology and theology.

I am getting really tired of these misguided American assessments on liturgical history. You might wanna read this thread before commenting on the matter again: http://forums.orthodoxchristianity.net/threads/problems-with-the-western-rite.78946/

 

[Katechon]

 

[Gloria Tibi Trinitas]

I'm all for this, but not everyone feels at home in our beloved eastern Liturgy. If we realistically want it to happen we'd need to foster a real Western Rite Orthodoxy, and not just the pseudo-WR with eastern aspects added like we've been doing. That would mean using a pre-schism western rite of Mass, in Latin, with no filioque and no easternized prayers or rubrics. We won't get them to come to us if we insist on eastern norms even in cases where the western ones also predate the schism by centuries, which in addition to things like no vernacular Mass also likely means accepting a celibacy-only policy for WR clergy.

If we could get that up and running, Catholics who rightly feel betrayed by the Vatican II cult could find a home with us that outwardly resembles their old one as it was pre-schism with proper ecclesiology and theology.

No disagreements except mandatory clerical celibacy. There should be an option for married clergy as well as celibate clergy. Celibacy is not necessarily a good post Schism development and is not the Apostolic tradition. It is a custom alien to the canon law of the ecumenical councils. Also parishes should be allowed to both use Latin and/or the vernacular according to the wishes of the local bishop and discretion of the priest and congregation.

 

[Sethrak]

Pretend? Not canonical from your perspective, sure. But you don't have sole claim to the title of patriarch. Be an adult.

I have more respect for/to Saint Bernadette, and the happening at Fatima then to Bishop. Krill, you used the word pretend,,,
Yes the Latin Church has gone off strange,, but in the same way as the other, Some people refer to the Latins as some day coming back, truth Is they speak the same in reverse,
It now is a bit of comedy to it, nether has left, Both pretend the other has not Excommunicated them, the Churches that are self contained, what are they called: Autonoutsideboss, seem more real no wasted time on their own pompous: I am the only one true Holy Catholic whatacallit,,,

Long Live The Universal Church

 

[Claudius]

Yikes, this is getting off-topic. This will be my last reply on the matter in this thread, but I'm glad to take it up elsewhere.

Spoiler: Re: Katechon

Well, thomistic epistemology is essentially subjectivist and feeds to the narcissism of the person applying it. It's not a coherent theological system however, which is one of the reason the West degenerated and fractured into atheism.

You won't get any argument from me. The point wasn't to defend Thomism vis-a-vis Orthodoxy, but to point out that not all traditional Catholic groups rely on Fatima to justify their positions.

No. And that is precisely the point.

I can't tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing, but I'll assume the former since I can't imagine an Orthodox defending the cult of Vatican II. As the lowest point of Western degeneracy so far, the only good to come out of that wicked council has been to further validate Orthodoxy (not that we needed validation), as our system makes it a lot harder for the hierarchy to replace our faith with Modernist dribble. As such it serves as a warning to us just how much damage can be done in one blow if we're not vigilant.

I am getting really tired of these misguided American assessments on liturgical history. You might wanna read this thread before commenting on the matter again: http://forums.orthodoxchristianity.net/threads/problems-with-the-western-rite.78946/

After skimming that thread I can only suggest attacking people personally a bit less, me included. You come across as very bitter and angry even if that's not your intent, which detracts from any points you're trying to make.

That said, the thread mainly centered around iconography and architecture in WR churches. Where did I argue against icons? Of course those predate the schism, opposing their use is anathematized (also pre-schism), and I never did or would say anything against them. The main eastern norms I was referring to were married clergy and vernacular Mass, both of which run contrary to norms in Rome's jurisdiction established well before the schism. I also recall reading about a pre-1054 western prayer of consecration being altered to the one we use in our Liturgy, which if true shouldn't happen, but I can't find the link right now.

So nebenbei, nicht alle, die in den USA leben, sind auch geborene Amerikaner bzw. haben nie in Europa gelebt. Und für's Protokoll (auf den anderen Thread bezogen) ich stimme Dir größtenteils zu was dieses traditionslose Land angeht, auch wenn ich nicht direkt jeden, der hier wohnt, dafür verurteile. Nichts für ungut, aber Vorsicht mit solchen Annahmen.

(I'm bad at translation into English, but to avoid an infraction: By the way, not everyone who lives in the USA was born here and has never lived in Europe, and (referring to the linked thread) for the record I agree with you in large part about this country without tradition, although I don't judge people just for living here. No problem, but take care when assuming things like that.)

Spoiler: Re: Gloria Tibi Trinitas

No disagreements except mandatory clerical celibacy. There should be an option for married clergy as well as celibate clergy. Celibacy is not necessarily a good post Schism development and is not the Apostolic tradition. It is a custom alien to the canon law of the ecumenical councils. Also parishes should be allowed to both use Latin and/or the vernacular according to the wishes of the local bishop and discretion of the priest and congregation.

It wouldn't bother me personally one bit either way if we let the priests choose like normal (for us), in fact I prefer married clergy, but if it's about getting people from the Latin tradition to return to their roots we have to consider that celibacy was common practice well before the schism. The Synod of Elvira prescribed it and the Council of Carthage strongly encouraged it in the 4th century, just to give two examples. For a later one, in the 8th century St. Boniface famously accused married priests of whoremongering in one of his letters and declared a 2-year prison sentence if they had sexual relations (Concilium Germanicum, AD 742). If nothing else, even if we allow both there's one choice that's clearly more in line with western tradition.

Vernacular, well, it doesn't cause any doctrinal issues, but it would be an innovation for the WR. If it's done with the consent of the bishop, who am I to judge? Just so long as no one's surprised when Latin Mass converts who care about strict adherence to tradition attend a different parish. Offering both may be a solution depending on the parishioners' wishes.

 

[Katechon]

You won't get any argument from me. The point wasn't to defend Thomism vis-a-vis Orthodoxy, but to point out that not all traditional Catholic groups rely on Fatima to justify their positions.

My whole point was that the typical recognize & resist sham most Trads go for is increasingly untenable, thus deepening the reliance on weird apparitions to make sense of their own ecclesiology. I don't know which kind of ecclesiological concepts you refer to when you say that there are ones out there for Trads that make sense from their point of view. There aren't, their whole system is thoroughly falsified.

I can't tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing, but I'll assume the former since I can't imagine an Orthodox defending the cult of Vatican II.

My point was that Trads aren't any less inconsistent than the V2 crowd is. In fact, they are more so, since they are unable to see the continuity to and the implications of Vatican 1 (whereas the V2 crowd relies exactly on arguments from personal authority).

After skimming that thread I can only suggest attacking people personally a bit less, me included. You come across as very bitter and angry even if that's not your intent, which detracts from any points you're trying to make.

That said, the thread mainly centered around iconography and architecture in WR churches. Where did I argue against icons? Of course those predate the schism, opposing their use is anathematized (also pre-schism), and I never did or would say anything against them. The main eastern norms I was referring to were married clergy and vernacular Mass, both of which run contrary to norms in Rome's jurisdiction established well before the schism. I also recall reading about a pre-1054 western prayer of consecration being altered to the one we use in our Liturgy, which if true shouldn't happen, but I can't find the link right now.

What applies to the precedence of iconography applies also to pretty much everything else Western Rite Enthusiasts make out as a supposed substantial difference between East and West pre-schism. I will reiterate what I said in that thread: there was no substantial difference between East and West in the first millenium, not even in terms of liturgical ethos. Read this: https://archive.org/details/dieepikleseimabe0000gamb/page/n111/mode/2up

(I'm bad at translation into English, but to avoid an infraction: By the way, not everyone who lives in the USA was born here and has never lived in Europe, and (referring to the linked thread) for the record I agree with you in large part about this country without tradition, although I don't judge people just for living here. No problem, but take care when assuming things like that.)

Dude, WR enthusiasm is just Americanism with an "Orthodox" coat of paint. As I said, the misguided historiographical assumptions behind it are a lot more obvious over here. I am weary of every discussion on Western matters devolving into this Western Rite nonsense.

It wouldn't bother me personally one bit either way if we let the priests choose like normal (for us), in fact I prefer married clergy, but if it's about getting people from the Latin tradition to return to their roots we have to consider that celibacy was common practice well before the schism. The Synod of Elvira prescribed it and the Council of Carthage strongly encouraged it in the 4th century, just to give two examples. For a later one, in the 8th century St. Boniface famously accused married priests of whoremongering in one of his letters and declared a 2-year prison sentence if they had sexual relations (Concilium Germanicum, AD 742). If nothing else, even if we allow both there's one choice that's clearly more in line with western tradition.

Would the words of St Boniface also apply if he had made a trip to the Syria, Egypt, Greece or virtually any other place in the Christian world at the time? Mandatory clerical celibacy is a terrible abuse that leads to clericalism and the clergy becoming a gay cult, which seems pretty visible in the aesthetical preferences of the baroque period already. There is nothing wrong with celibacy though.

Vernacular, well, it doesn't cause any doctrinal issues, but it would be an innovation for the WR. If it's done with the consent of the bishop, who am I to judge? Just so long as no one's surprised when Latin Mass converts who care about strict adherence to tradition attend a different parish. Offering both may be a solution depending on the parishioners' wishes.

What a disgusting attitude. Trads that want to become Orthodox ought to repent and become Orthodox. Orthodoxy is not there to provide shelter for their delusions and misguided preferences.

 

[ialmisry]

I have more respect for/to Saint Bernadette, and the happening at Fatima then to Bishop. Krill, you used the word pretend,,,
Yes the Latin Church has gone off strange,, but in the same way as the other, Some people refer to the Latins as some day coming back, truth Is they speak the same in reverse,
It now is a bit of comedy to it, nether has left, Both pretend the other has not Excommunicated them, the Churches that are self contained, what are they called: Autonoutsideboss, seem more real no wasted time on their own pompous: I am the only one true Holy Catholic whatacallit,,,

Long Live The Universal Church

You including the Universalist Unitarians in on that?