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Pope to give a woman a Cardinal's hat?

Santagranddad

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The Daily Mail - a serious rag if ever there was one - has today an article suggesting a 49 year old married woman may be made a Cardinal? Now I've double checked my calendar and know it is not 1st April. Anyone know anything about this potential bombshell, or phantasy?
 

hecma925

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You mean this?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2486066/Could-Linda-Hogan-Catholic-Churchs-woman-cardinal.html

If it happens, it happens.  Coming from such a serious news source and all... :D
 

brastaseptim

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Technically you could, as the Cardinalate has been technically been, and can be, held by laypeople in the past, and is not necessarily a clerical position... but it would be a longshot loophole, and I don't think the Pope would be that far out there.
 

Santagranddad

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It's very late here and my mind wanders but I have a nightmarish image of St Peter's resounding to Chris de Burgh's 'Woman in Red'.

Oh, dear, back to reality.
 

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A former Brazilian priest, Juan Arias, was the man who first put forward the prospect of an imminent appointment of a female cardinal, when he wrote the idea was 'not a joke', in the Spanish newspaper El Pais in September.
He quoted an unnamed priest as saying: 'Knowing this Pope, he wouldn't hesitate before appointing a woman cardinal.
Pope Francis could be poised to make history by appointing the first female cardinal
Pope Francis could be poised to make history by appointing the first female cardinal
'And he would indeed enjoy being the first Pope to allow women to participate in the selection of a new pontiff,' The Sunday Times reported.

[....]

Hogan, who was a founding member of the International Association for Catholic Social Thought, is one of nine potential female cardinals listed by friend James Keenan, professor of theology at the Jesuit Boston College, on his Facebook page.
Along with Professor Hogan, two candidates are from Brazil, three are African, one is Australian, another German and the ninth is from the Philippines.

I've quoted here the relevant information. The rest is just filler.

Basically, a former priest quoting an unnamed source said in a newspaper editorial he believes the Pope might consider the possibility based on his assessment of the pontiff's personality. The name of the candidate in question  was taken from the Facebook page of a religion professor in Boston. That's not quite "the appointment of a woman is imminent."

Just the usual Daily Mail hackery.
 

xOrthodox4Christx

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Is this the UK equivalent to the Onion in the States? 'Cause it sure seems similar.
 

Santagranddad

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Agabus said:
A former Brazilian priest, Juan Arias, was the man who first put forward the prospect of an imminent appointment of a female cardinal, when he wrote the idea was 'not a joke', in the Spanish newspaper El Pais in September.
He quoted an unnamed priest as saying: 'Knowing this Pope, he wouldn't hesitate before appointing a woman cardinal.
Pope Francis could be poised to make history by appointing the first female cardinal
Pope Francis could be poised to make history by appointing the first female cardinal
'And he would indeed enjoy being the first Pope to allow women to participate in the selection of a new pontiff,' The Sunday Times reported.

[....]

Hogan, who was a founding member of the International Association for Catholic Social Thought, is one of nine potential female cardinals listed by friend James Keenan, professor of theology at the Jesuit Boston College, on his Facebook page.
Along with Professor Hogan, two candidates are from Brazil, three are African, one is Australian, another German and the ninth is from the Philippines.

I've quoted here the relevant information. The rest is just filler.

Basically, a former priest quoting an unnamed source said in a newspaper editorial he believes the Pope might consider the possibility based on his assessment of the pontiff's personality. The name of the candidate in question  was taken from the Facebook page of a religion professor in Boston. That's not quite "the appointment of a woman is imminent."

Just the usual Daily Mail hackery.
It appears the story has spread to various news outlets, having looked around on the web. But I'm not going to put any money on it happening at time soon.
 

Santagranddad

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xOrthodox4Christx said:
Is this the UK equivalent to the Onion in the States? 'Cause it sure seems similar.
No, it was a broadsheet originally and the first UK paper to have a women's section. The owner, Lord Rothermere, in the 1930s had suspect pro-German sympathies. Today it is a tabloid with an anti-EU, anti-immigration and sensationalist bent.
 
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Mor Ephrem said:
newtoorthodoxy said:
Personally, if this ever happens, I'd have to think that the sedevacantists are on to something.
If you're Orthodox, you already think the sedevacantists are on to something.  ;)
Not necessarily.  I think the Catholic Church can have a valid pope--he's just not infallible, and I don't believe in the Rome pope's primacy.   
 

podkarpatska

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hecma925 said:
You mean this?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2486066/Could-Linda-Hogan-Catholic-Churchs-woman-cardinal.html

If it happens, it happens.  Coming from such a serious news source and all... :D
Perhaps the Mail confused their red hat clubs? http://redhatsociety.com/
 

brastaseptim

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podkarpatska said:
hecma925 said:
You mean this?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2486066/Could-Linda-Hogan-Catholic-Churchs-woman-cardinal.html

If it happens, it happens.  Coming from such a serious news source and all... :D
Perhaps the Mail confused their red hat clubs? http://redhatsociety.com/
It's the Daily Mail. You might as well get information from The Sun.
 

Regnare

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newtoorthodoxy said:
Mor Ephrem said:
newtoorthodoxy said:
Personally, if this ever happens, I'd have to think that the sedevacantists are on to something.
If you're Orthodox, you already think the sedevacantists are on to something.  ;)
Not necessarily.  I think the Catholic Church can have a valid pope--he's just not infallible, and I don't believe in the Rome pope's primacy.   
Doesn't the Orthodox Church use St. Ignatius of Antioch's doctrine on sacraments, i.e. defining valid sacraments as those performed by an Orthodox bishop or one of his (also Orthodox) priests? This would seem to indicate that when the Pope of Rome started, in the Orthodox view, to promote heresy, he ceased to be a bishop (or priest, or deacon). In other words, the sedevacantists would be right, just roughly 904 years slow on the uptake.
 
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Regnare said:
newtoorthodoxy said:
Mor Ephrem said:
newtoorthodoxy said:
Personally, if this ever happens, I'd have to think that the sedevacantists are on to something.
If you're Orthodox, you already think the sedevacantists are on to something.  ;)
Not necessarily.  I think the Catholic Church can have a valid pope--he's just not infallible, and I don't believe in the Rome pope's primacy.    
Doesn't the Orthodox Church use St. Ignatius of Antioch's doctrine on sacraments, i.e. defining valid sacraments as those performed by an Orthodox bishop or one of his (also Orthodox) priests? This would seem to indicate that when the Pope of Rome started, in the Orthodox view, to promote heresy, he ceased to be a bishop (or priest, or deacon). In other words, the sedevacantists would be right, just roughly 904 years slow on the uptake.
I don't think all of Rome's popes have promoted heresy.  However, a bad pope could be just one bishop among many bishops, and still promote heresy.  

They seem to be doing a lot of cleaning up after this pope--he's very personable and winning the respect of a lot of non-Catholics.  I've heard agnostics and atheists express respect for him.  But I listen to Catholic radio every time I'm in my car, because I can't get AF in there, and it's far too often I hear them either on Catholic news shows or on one of their many call-in shows saying, "He said that, but he didn't mean what the news says he meant, and instead, he meant this other thing," and then proceed to reinterpret one of this pope's many doctrinally questionable statements.  One host said this pope is intentionally confusing people in order to get people talking about the Church and Catholicism, and that it was 'sheer brilliance.'  Oh, ok.  Meanwhile, I shrugged it off about the first 40 or 50 times they tried to mop up something he at least appeared to say that seemed out of line with Catholic doctrine, but now, I'm scratching my head.  What is this guy doing?  I mean really, what is he doing?
 

theistgal

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Well, I have no problem at all saying that while I like Pope Francis - a lot! - he's definitely a liberal so it's kinda hard for the conservatives to "mop up" after him as you put it. And since I don't think the Pope is (or has to be) infallible except when making expressly infallible statements, I have no problem saying he's just saying and doing some pretty whacky things.  Let's face it, we basically have a "silly season" Pope for the foreseeable future. Let's just enjoy him while he's around.  8)
 
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theistgal said:
Let's just enjoy him while he's around.  8)
But while we're enjoying him, he could be doing damage.

Liberalism and conservatism should only be applied to politics, since neither should be applied to Church doctrine.
 

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theistgal said:
Well, I have no problem at all saying that while I like Pope Francis - a lot! - he's definitely a liberal so it's kinda hard for the conservatives to "mop up" after him as you put it. And since I don't think the Pope is (or has to be) infallible except when making expressly infallible statements, I have no problem saying he's just saying and doing some pretty whacky things.  Let's face it, we basically have a "silly season" Pope for the foreseeable future. Let's just enjoy him while he's around.  8)
He is certainly keeping us on our toes.

When this pope speaks, everyone listens as one never knows what he will say or do next.
 

brastaseptim

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I like Pope Francis. He leaves something to be desired in the Liturgy area, and he seems to have fun having reporters try to interpret but he says, but he seems to be a pretty cool Pontiff. Especially since his Papacy has started, our little SVDP conference has swelled from 7 people to 15!
 

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I have some Catholic friends who are sitting on the fence.

If it gets worse, they might become refugees and go Orthodox, but that refugee mentality is a problem.
 

xOrthodox4Christx

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Regnare said:
newtoorthodoxy said:
Mor Ephrem said:
newtoorthodoxy said:
Personally, if this ever happens, I'd have to think that the sedevacantists are on to something.
If you're Orthodox, you already think the sedevacantists are on to something.  ;)
Not necessarily.  I think the Catholic Church can have a valid pope--he's just not infallible, and I don't believe in the Rome pope's primacy.   
Doesn't the Orthodox Church use St. Ignatius of Antioch's doctrine on sacraments, i.e. defining valid sacraments as those performed by an Orthodox bishop or one of his (also Orthodox) priests? This would seem to indicate that when the Pope of Rome started, in the Orthodox view, to promote heresy, he ceased to be a bishop (or priest, or deacon). In other words, the sedevacantists would be right, just roughly 904 years slow on the uptake.
That's right, when you lose the Faith of St. Peter, you are no longer a Rock upon which the Church is built.  :p
 

brastaseptim

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Maria said:
I have some Catholic friends who are sitting on the fence.

If it gets worse, they might become refugees and go Orthodox, but that refugee mentality is a problem.
I've seen that kind of thing often with Latin Traditionalists, but more often than not, they go Sede and don't think higher of the Orthodox than they do the majority Roman Catholics.
 

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brastaseptim

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theistgal said:
Well, at least he's humble and good with kids as well, I'll give him that too. Some priests I've known have been very Traditional, but kept insisting that things had to go exactly a certain way, and tended to rush out of Mass after unvesting, refusing to talk to their parishioners outside the Confessional. Their liturgies were traditional, but they weren't people priests like our Pontiff, and they insisted the children be sent off to a little bible colouring book thing from the beginning of Mass till the Creed.
 
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brastaseptim said:
I like Pope Francis. He leaves something to be desired in the Liturgy area, and he seems to have fun having reporters try to interpret but he says, but he seems to be a pretty cool Pontiff. Especially since his Papacy has started, our little SVDP conference has swelled from 7 people to 15!
There's absolutely no value at all in being 'cool.'  When churches start caving to political and social pressure, and they start adapting doctrine in a way designed to attract more people, they do usually succeed in growing their members.  But while their membership can double or triple, the numbers of those with genuine faith is greatly decreased, even cut in half.  And people start switching churches and converting at even higher rates than normal, trying to find the 'true faith.'  They're never actually looking for that.  They're actually looking for the Church that abides their own idea of what church is supposed to be.  

Nevertheless, I've never before seen so many people switching denominations, and I would guess that this has a lot to do with it.  The most recent development, that I heard of, anyway, that drove members out the door en mass was the ECLA allowing gay clergy to remain sexually active.  If news stories are to be believed, it cost the Lutheran Church a half million members.  You do something that current social trends suggest would be highly popular, and yet people leave.  Where did all those Christians go when they dropped off ECLA rolls?  They're probably still jumping fences, trying to find the one Church that doesn't surrender their doctrine to the constant pushing and shoving of special interest groups and their respective agendas.  

There is no Church anywhere on earth with ability to change the nature of God.  We cannot turn God into what we need Him to be, simply because we cannot deal with what He is.  His rules is His rules.
 

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newtoorthodoxy said:
brastaseptim said:
I like Pope Francis. He leaves something to be desired in the Liturgy area, and he seems to have fun having reporters try to interpret but he says, but he seems to be a pretty cool Pontiff. Especially since his Papacy has started, our little SVDP conference has swelled from 7 people to 15!
There's absolutely no value at all in being 'cool.'  When churches start caving to political and social pressure, and they start adapting doctrine in a way designed to attract more people, they do usually succeed in growing their members.  But while their membership can double or triple, the numbers of those with genuine faith is greatly decreased, even cut in half.  And people start switching churches and converting at even higher rates than normal, trying to find the 'true faith.'  They're never actually looking for that.  They're actually looking for the Church that abides their own idea of what church is supposed to be.  

Nevertheless, I've never before seen so many people switching denominations, and I would guess that this has a lot to do with it.  The most recent development, that I heard of, anyway, that drove members out the door en mass was the ECLA allowing gay clergy to remain sexually active.  If news stories are to be believed, it cost the Lutheran Church a half million members.  You do something that current social trends suggest would be highly popular, and yet people leave.  Where did all those Christians go when they dropped off ECLA rolls?  They're probably still jumping fences, trying to find the one Church that doesn't surrender their doctrine to the constant pushing and shoving of special interest groups and their respective agendas.  

There is no Church anywhere on earth with ability to change the nature of God.  We cannot turn God into what we need Him to be, simply because we cannot deal with what He is.  His rules is His rules.
Most of those people who left remained at their parishes.  Their parishes simply stopped being a part of the ELCA.
 

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If he upholds the errors of his predeccors we may point that out, but to take judgement upon ourselves as to his character or sincerity is itself an error, surely?
 

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Santagranddad said:
If he upholds the errors of his predeccors we may point that out, but to take judgement upon ourselves as to his character or sincerity is itself an error, surely?
Yes, indeed it is. BTW, don't call me Shirley.
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
Santagranddad said:
If he upholds the errors of his predeccors we may point that out, but to take judgement upon ourselves as to his character or sincerity is itself an error, surely?
Yes, indeed it is. BTW, don't call me Shirley.
He didn't.  He just wasn't sure if your name is Shirley or not.  Hence the "?".  ;)
 
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PeterTheAleut said:
I would say that accusing the Pope of hubris is itself a pretty arrogant thing to do.
'Hubris' isn't what I'm seeing in this pope at all, so I'd agree with your statement.  He's been the anti-hubris pope so far.  I'm just wondering if he isn't being a bit too eager?  Eager to please, maybe?  I guess it depends on if/and what all he changes.
 

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Remember that pretty much everything you hear about him is filtered through a media who just can't WAIT for a Pope to "change" the Catholic Church, so they may be seeing what they want to see.  ;)
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
William said:
theistgal said:
Come on, how can you not love a Pope like this?
How? Fairly simply, you just need to be able to see through his hubris masquerading as godly humility.
I would say that accusing the Pope of hubris is itself a pretty arrogant thing to do.
Actually, I'm more inclined to agree with William, even if I might not have expressed myself so bluntly.  There are a few reasons why I like this Pope, and for those reasons I sometimes find myself defending him against his own subjects, but even so, I cannot agree that his much vaunted humility is all they want us to believe it is.  He may have humility on some personal level, but he knows he is being watched and commented upon, and I can't help but feel that most of these displays of humility are a calculated campaign to project an image of humility.  

It's not humble to shift his residence from the place all his predecessors used to a "hotel" not set up for the purpose in order to be around people, and then to remain just as aloof from "the people" as some recent reports imply.  It's not humble to have new vestments and pontificals commissioned that "look simpler" than the stuff his predecessor would routinely use when the latter was already in the possession of the Vatican and the former involve spending lots of money (cheap looking is not cheap) to look poor.  It's not humble to encourage people to do the work of the gospel boldly, even if it raises the ire of ecclesiastical authority, while slamming down in the most clericalist and authoritarian way those groups doing it in a particular, "traditionalist" way (incidentally, the only groups which are likely to respond to such with obedience) and letting others slide.  There are other examples.  

I think a lot of these things are an attempt to change the public impression of the papacy, part and parcel of the "reform" he was supposedly elected to accomplish.  But this "humility" throws a bone to the media and, through them, to the faithful while the Papacy and the Curia still keep on going much as before.  In a way, it's a smokescreen.  Given how recently he assumed the papacy, it would've been more humble to just keep a low profile for a year and not make any major changes until he learned the lay of the land.  That he's able to make some changes with all the force of a bull in a china shop while biding his time or even resisting with regard to others makes me think this isn't primarily about humility.  Again, he may have it to some degree on a personal level, but humility is now a tool.  
 

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theistgal said:
Remember that pretty much everything you hear about him is filtered through a media who just can't WAIT for a Pope to "change" the Catholic Church, so they may be seeing what they want to see.  ;)
This is a good point, but the Pope knows that he is being watched, reported on, interpreted by the media, and that it is largely through this media that his subjects will "know" him.  He even actively engages that media.  And he is not stupid or clueless, he knows what the media is like now, he knows what they were like for his predecessors, what their agenda is, etc. 

But not only does he unwittingly give them fodder, sometimes he does it intentionally.   
 
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