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Presbyterians Vote to Allow Gay Marriage by Whopping 3-1 Ratio.

JamesRottnek

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rakovsky said:
Didyma said:
xOrthodox4Christx said:
As long as "gay marriage' doesn't mean Sacramentally endorsing the marriage itself, or endorsing the behaviour expressed in these 'marriages', I am okay with it.
All marriages should be gay. If they are not, they should try to think of ways to make their marriages more positive.

As far as Same-sex acts however, what if a few centuries from now scientists find out that it was a mis-orientation caused by a physical, non-genetic illness that damages one's hormonal system, making same sex orientations a disorder? Would it be best for people to live out their illness and for society to give it approval with marriage? Or should it be something that people should recognize and try to deal with?
And what if scientists find out that religion is all delusion, caused by problems in the brain?
 

JamesRottnek

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rakovsky said:
Raylight said:
rakovsky said:
As far as Same-sex acts however, what if a few centuries from now scientists find out that it was a mis-orientation caused by a physical, non-genetic illness that damages one's hormonal system, making same sex orientations a disorder? Would it be best for people to live out their illness and for society to give it approval with marriage? Or should it be something that people should recognize and try to deal with?
Well, when the " few centuries from now " come, we are going to have a different talk ( we are going to be dead anyway ;) ) . However for now, Scientists believe Homosexuality is normal and is not a disorder. therefor they should have the full rights like anybody else, including marriage and adoption.
Genital organs and sexual attraction developed for reproductive purposes. A same-sex orientation pushes the person who undergoes it in a direction away from that purpose. Some people have an inclination toward eating until they vomit. In that case, the desire to eat is the natural one.

Some people have low thyroid hormones, low testosterone, or a problem with their insulin levels. What if it turned out that people with same sex inclinations had a hormone problem or another disorder that explained their effeminate traits?
Do you seriously think all gay people are effeminate?  Have you ever heard of a bear (and I'm not talking about the four-pawed animal)? 

Also, do you believe that a husband and wife should stop having sex if the wife has a hysterectomy, or the husband has to have a bilateral orchiectomy?  After all, they would be going "in a direction away from that [reproductive] purpose."
 

JamesRottnek

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Didyma said:
As for the homosexuality being natural/disorder discussion, many scholars believe it's neither.  Here's an article about this theory, by a pro-gay news source: http://dailycaller.com/2014/03/19/nobody-is-born-that-way-gay-historians-say/
Actually that article isn't discussing whether or not it's natural or unnatural, disordered or not.  Instead, it discusses a very complicated issue.  There's a lot of theoretical, and other, work on whether or not sexuality is socially constructed vs being biological.  I think that most of the research strongly supports the believe that one's sexuality is influenced by biological and genetic factors, and the way it is expressed is strongly impacted by the societal construction of sexuality (both hetero- and homosexuality).

Also, I actually know a large number of gay men and lesbians, who are very active in the gay rights movement, who very much object to the argument "I was born this way" being used in defense of gay rights.  After all, there are a number of birth defects that society readily accepts (and I don't really know anyone who disagrees) should be treated by the medical community.  Some people are also much more prone to bipolar disorder, based on genetic factors, but that doesn't mean bipolar disorder is a good thing, or even a neutral thing.

Serious gay rights theorists and activists (i.e., not Lady Gaga) don't use the argument "I was born this way."
 

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What is the problem. Heterosexual couples marry for love just as homosexual couples do. The very institution of marriage no longer exists.

This forums participants have such a problem coming to terms with modernity.
 

Porter ODoran

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Geh said:
What is the problem. Heterosexual couples marry for love just as homosexual couples do. The very institution of marriage no longer exists.

This forums participants have such a problem coming to terms with modernity.
Some diagnoses are too awful for the sufferer easily to come to terms with.
 

Geh

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Porter ODoran said:
Geh said:
What is the problem. Heterosexual couples marry for love just as homosexual couples do. The very institution of marriage no longer exists.

This forums participants have such a problem coming to terms with modernity.
Some diagnoses are too awful for the sufferer easily to come to terms with.
That two men come together in love in order to be bound by each other is so completely awful to bear.

Yes please tell me how much you are suffering for the fact gays can get married.
 

Porter ODoran

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Geh said:
Porter ODoran said:
Geh said:
What is the problem. Heterosexual couples marry for love just as homosexual couples do. The very institution of marriage no longer exists.

This forums participants have such a problem coming to terms with modernity.
Some diagnoses are too awful for the sufferer easily to come to terms with.
That two men come together in love in order to be bound by each other is so completely awful to bear.

Yes please tell me how much you are suffering for the fact gays can get married.
Your idiom. Myself I don't think "modernity" or any other chronological happenstance amounts to something someone would "come to terms with."
 

Geh

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Porter ODoran said:
Geh said:
Porter ODoran said:
Geh said:
What is the problem. Heterosexual couples marry for love just as homosexual couples do. The very institution of marriage no longer exists.

This forums participants have such a problem coming to terms with modernity.
Some diagnoses are too awful for the sufferer easily to come to terms with.
That two men come together in love in order to be bound by each other is so completely awful to bear.

Yes please tell me how much you are suffering for the fact gays can get married.
Your idiom. Myself I don't think "modernity" or any other chronological happenstance amounts to something someone would "come to terms with."
We can get into this if you want, but the traditional ideal of marriage is from a time that has long since past. As well as having a stable background upon which we are even to derive those traditional values.

Sorry to burst your bubble.
 

Porter ODoran

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The most curious argument for a basis for the superiority of something I may have read.
 

Geh

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Porter ODoran said:
The most curious argument for a basis for the superiority of something I may have read.
Its not even an argument nor is it a superority of anything.

"The most curious" LOL!
 

Porter ODoran

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Well I know all this trumpeting doesn't arise from your sense that modernity is inferior. That would be even more crious.
 

minasoliman

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Come on Shiny, oh sorry, i mean Geh (for a second you looked like Shiny).  You know what the Church's teachings are.  Have some sympathy
 

TheTrisagion

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How does one confuse that with a Seventeen magazine cover?

Of course, the quality of posts are similar, so I can see the confusion...
 

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Porter ODoran said:
Well I know all this trumpeting doesn't arise from your sense that modernity is inferior. That would be even more crious.
What trumpeting? I was just saying that what is there to fault between two men/women that want to get hitched because of love for the other. Their marriage in no way impacts your own, if you are married.

I can't imagine you being shocked by churches being OK with gay marriage.

I'm not entirely sure what exactly is up for debate here either, all of this is such hyper reactionary nonsense.
 

minasoliman

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By why limit it to two?  If three or four love each other, why not?  If siblings or cousins love each other why not?
 

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minasoliman said:
By why limit it to two?  If three or four love each other, why not?  If siblings or cousins love each other why not?
Does that mean triple and quadruple the benefits?
 

minasoliman

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Geh said:
minasoliman said:
By why limit it to two?  If three or four love each other, why not?  If siblings or cousins love each other why not?
Does that mean triple and quadruple the benefits?
Why not?
 

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Raylight said:
Didyma said:
As for the homosexuality being natural/disorder discussion, many scholars believe it's neither.  Here's an article about this theory, by a pro-gay news source: http://dailycaller.com/2014/03/19/nobody-is-born-that-way-gay-historians-say/
This also a response to rakovsky, I apologize for not answering your comment and then later on answering another member comment.

The Daily Caller is a politically conservative news website. How do you expect such news website to say anything in support for gay right. ( At their Home page there was news about gay activists and the title was " Now Gay Activists Are Whining About A Campus Building Named After Heroic Anti-Communist "  )  .It made me laugh just reading the first few lines of the article of the link you posted, it is very clear that there was a bias in the article. And the writer ( David Benkof )  is gay but he is celibate gay who believes that having homosexual relationship is wrong*. And above that, he oppose same-sex marriage. What do you expect ?



How about read what the real unbiased Scientists had to say...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10637532/Being-homosexual-is-only-partly-due-to-gay-gene-research-finds.html


It says that Homosexuality is partly genetic ( about 40% ) and the rest is environmental, however like what the Scientist said " “Don’t confuse “environmental” with “socially acquired.” Environment means anything that is not in our DNA at birth, and that includes a lot of stuff that is not social.”  "

And all that proves that Homosexuality has a biological roots and the rest is environmental.

The discussion can go on and on, it is very complicated and emotional issue.

Let us end it here guys, before one of the moderators hit us with some Warnings ;D


* David Benkof on Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Benkof
O.K, maybe the Daily Caller is conservative.  I was referring to the author himself, who said in the last paragraph (which you may or may not have actually read):

"The compelling evidence nobody’s born gay doesn’t necessarily have to shred the LGBT agenda. Legitimate reasons for more liberal attitudes and policies regarding gays and lesbians still exist, such as freedom of association, the right to privacy, and respect for other people’s experiences. But those who demand social or political change because gays are born that way just don’t know much about history." 

Even if it was the most conservative source in the world, though, that doesn't justify not paying attention to the article's actual points.  Now, I just posted that as food for thought, not as my official position on where the desire for homosexual acts comes from.  Your hyper-diligence for perceived slights against  your favorite causes is unwarranted.

JamesRottnek said:
Do you seriously think all gay people are effeminate?  Have you ever heard of a bear (and I'm not talking about the four-pawed animal)? 
I think the femininity being referred to here is not general, but related to the sexual attraction to men, which is a feminine trait (at the very least traditionally).  Yes, I know what a "bear" is.
 

Porter ODoran

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Geh said:
Porter ODoran said:
Well I know all this trumpeting doesn't arise from your sense that modernity is inferior. That would be even more crious.
What trumpeting? I was just saying that what is there to fault between two men/women that want to get hitched because of love for the other. Their marriage in no way impacts your own, if you are married.

I can't imagine you being shocked by churches being OK with gay marriage.

I'm not entirely sure what exactly is up for debate here either, all of this is such hyper reactionary nonsense.
If it needs saying, I was responding to your invoking "modernity" as though it were some answer. And what does modernity as you were using it mean? Probably no more than that we are living in a time. Stripped of the label, our time is certainly naked to scrutiny -- in our time how do we live? how do we think? why and to what end? You may see now that "modernity" is a bundle of questions -- As is every time, until in piety, courage, temperance and love for man some set themselves to the task of an answer. Our society cannot approach any such answer while it precludes it with the phalanx of bywords "modernity," "rights," "individual," "profit," and many more than I am able to list although you may take your own list from the lips of every unthinking person around you.
 

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Gunnarr said:
I wonder what percent of Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox would vote in a similar manner, if it were up to the laity
At our Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocesan Convention last summer in Houston, we passed a resolution opposing same sex marriage without opposition.

Fr. John W. Morris.
 

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frjohnmorris said:
Gunnarr said:
I wonder what percent of Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox would vote in a similar manner, if it were up to the laity
At our Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocesan Convention last summer in Houston, we passed a resolution opposing same sex marriage without opposition.

Fr. John W. Morris.
I wouldn't have anticipated anything to the contrary with Metropolitan Philip in charge.  I know many had issues with him, but he knew how to run a tight ship.
 

scamandrius

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TheTrisagion said:
frjohnmorris said:
Gunnarr said:
I wonder what percent of Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox would vote in a similar manner, if it were up to the laity
At our Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocesan Convention last summer in Houston, we passed a resolution opposing same sex marriage without opposition.

Fr. John W. Morris.
I wouldn't have anticipated anything to the contrary with Metropolitan Philip in charge.   I know many had issues with him, but he knew how to run a tight ship.
He was pretty consistent in the morals department though not very liturgically traditional.
 
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