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lubeltri

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Αριστοκλής said:
Now on THAT we can agree. There was/is much theological basis for papal supremacy. Most of the theological differences between E & W became evident or were developed in Rome after 1054.
Now we can agree  :)
 

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lubeltri said:
Now we can agree  :)
But of course dubious claims based on falsified documentation leading to historical revisionism must be taught in Pope101.  ::)
 

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Ebor,

I just dug up all the previous discussions on the topic.

You posted some terrific stuff (and some great links to old MSS, some of which I do not have in my bookmarks). Sigh . . . Anglo-Saxon studies. Takes me back to college---I was on quite an A-S kick back then---classes in Old English linguistics, literature, history, art, even archaeology. I salute you.

(MTA: I chose Bede as my confirmation name!)

By the way, I now see that I have discussed this topic before: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,10121.msg137667.html#msg137667
 

ozgeorge

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Peace be with you, BrotherAiden.
BrotherAidan said:
I would like to think that, overall, I attempt to be tactful, repectful and polite in my posts, so I plead for a "mulligan" here!
I do read most of your posts, and I find them well thought out and respectful. Mulligan granted!
 

Ebor

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BrotherAidan said:
Ozgeorge and Ebor
I obviously touched a nerve and offended you both. For that I apologize. If you only knew how much time I normally spend (too much) composing and editing and modifying most of my longer posts , you would realize that I don't have all that much of a posting personality vs. real personality. Occassionally, however, I try to get cute or clever and get myself into trouble.

I would like to think that, overall, I attempt to be tactful, repectful and polite in my posts, so I plead for a "mulligan" here!

Any visitors who my posts on this subject might have offended, I likewise apologize.
As you wrote, your posts have generally been respectful and polite, which is why your perjorative name-calling and apparent disdain for and labeling of persons that you did not know was surprising to me. In that regard, you did not offend me *personally*, for you said nothing offensive directed at me.

It seemed though that the lady in question as well as any persons that she may have dealt with in her post at the Cathedral were ummm "easy targets"? It is sometimes a temptation to denigrate others, and that can happen without thinking of the real people, and in that way feel some kind of superiority to them.  I've felt that myself, I assure you, and try to resist.  I hope that I am explaining myself clearly and in a non-accusatory way.  :)

Ebor
 

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Αριστοκλής said:
"Latin" as the Pope himself encouraged those invading forces to aid in bringing the local bishops in line with Rome or more usually their replacement with his bishops.
Would you please give some historical examples so that I can more clearly understand what you might mean? Thank you in advance.

Thanks for this additional info. But of course an Anglican such as yourself will view history from an Anglo-Saxon perspective. Not all the isles were A/S.
<Insert emoticon of one raised eyebrow>  ??  I'm not clear as to what Church I belong to has to do with looking at Primary Sources for historical understanding.  It does not, I don't think, apply in my study of Japanese History or Norse History or Montana History. 

I am very aware that much of the British Isles were not "A/S".  (Many of my own ancestors being Scots).  But the subject addressed was the Anglo Saxons and the Normans and the time period prior to and somewhat after 1066.  So the conditions in Scotland or Ireland weren't being addressed, (though they can be if wanted.  ;) Recall that the real McBeth was king of Scots from 1040-1057 during the times of the Norman Conquest.  But it was Malcolm III who reigned and had spent some years at the court of Edward the Confessor, and gave sanctuary to Harald's brother Tostig for a while.. I could go on but shouldn't  ;D )

Ebor
 

Ebor

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lubeltri said:
Ebor,

I just dug up all the previous discussions on the topic.

You posted some terrific stuff (and some great links to old MSS, some of which I do not have in my bookmarks). Sigh . . . Anglo-Saxon studies. Takes me back to college---I was on quite an A-S kick back then---classes in Old English linguistics, literature, history, art, even archaeology. I salute you.
I'm glad that you found them interesting.  :) Did you go into any of the Norse sagas and history and other topics too, since they're closely twined with the Anglo-Saxons?

(MTA: I chose Bede as my confirmation name!)
Excellent!  and also venerable  ;)

By the way, I now see that I have discussed this topic before: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,10121.msg137667.html#msg137667
How did I miss that?  I'll pop over and take a look.

Ebor
 

Ebor

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lubeltri said:
:eek: Where does one go after leaving that group?
I don't recall what group it was.. but it was not one of the more well known EO jurisdictions.  I'd have to dig around to find out.

Ebor
 

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Ebor said:
Would you please give some historical examples so that I can more clearly understand what you might mean? Thank you in advance.
Actually, I was referring to the English Latin (under Rome) bishops replacing Irish bishops in the late 12th century as described in Sally McKee's Uncommon Dominion.

<Insert emoticon of one raised eyebrow>  ??  I'm not clear as to what Church I belong to has to do with looking at Primary Sources for historical understanding.  It does not, I don't think, apply in my study of Japanese History or Norse History or Montana History.
Only to the extent that you assume I was referring to Anglo-Saxons at all. Lubeltri was using a date (before 1066) as the time period of his argument and not, as far as I could tell, making an ethnic statement
I am very aware that much of the British Isles were not "A/S".  (Many of my own ancestors being Scots).  But the subject addressed was the Anglo Saxons and the Normans and the time period prior to and somewhat after 1066.  So the conditions in Scotland or Ireland weren't being addressed, (though they can be if wanted.  ;) Recall that the real McBeth was king of Scots from 1040-1057 during the times of the Norman Conquest.  But it was Malcolm III who reigned and had spent some years at the court of Edward the Confessor, and gave sanctuary to Harald's brother Tostig for a while.. I could go on but shouldn't  ;D )
As you see, I was addressing Ireland.
Lubeltri must prove to me, however, that pre-1066, bishops anywhere on the isles were under Rome (and therefore out of communion with the remaining Church). He mistakes 'closeness with Constantinople' (?) as indicating being Orthodox apparently.  That would not be necessary to be considered 'in the Catholic Church' or Orthodox.

Along with McKee's book, I must source my assertion on the replacement of English bishops post 1066. I wouldn't make it up but must remember if I got it off the History Channel or read it.
 

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Ebor said:
As you wrote, your posts have generally been respectful and polite, which is why your perjorative name-calling and apparent disdain for and labeling of persons that you did not know was surprising to me. In that regard, you did not offend me *personally*, for you said nothing offensive directed at me.

It seemed though that the lady in question as well as any persons that she may have dealt with in her post at the Cathedral were ummm "easy targets"? It is sometimes a temptation to denigrate others, and that can happen without thinking of the real people, and in that way feel some kind of superiority to them.  I've felt that myself, I assure you, and try to resist.   I hope that I am explaining myself clearly and in a non-accusatory way.  :)

Ebor
I understand and appreciate your insights.

BTW, I was in a mainline denomination before converting to Orthodoxy, so I know what it is like being in a broad theological context. It's very frustrating. Perhaps reading about this unfortunate situation took me back to a place I am glad I no longer find myself and triggered the worst response.

Anyway good providence to you as you hang in there.
 

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Ebor said:
I'm glad that you found them interesting.  :) Did you go into any of the Norse sagas and history and other topics too, since they're closely twined with the Anglo-Saxons?
Yes indeed. I don't know how anyone can study Beowulf and not deal with Norse traditions.
 

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When I wrote "closeness to Constantinople," I meant Eastern in theology and against papal primacy in ecclesiology. Pre-1066 England was neither. England was Roman canonical territory before and after the conquest. It worshipped according to Roman rites. It was in the Western tradition. Its bishops received the pall from the Bishop of Rome, including the one who crowned Harold king.
 

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lubeltri said:
When I wrote "closeness to Constantinople," I meant Eastern in theology and against papal primacy in ecclesiology. Pre-1066 England was neither. England was Roman canonical territory before and after the conquest. It worshipped according to Roman rites. It was in the Western tradition. Its bishops received the pall from the Bishop of Rome, including the one who crowned Harold king.
I think we're having a tangential disagreement here.
1) Once again, papal supremacy is NOT theology.
2) As you read above, I took your 1066 as a date, not area and was speaking of Ireland (which work I cited did cover with the replacement of Irish bishops - not England per se.
3) I have read were the pope did actively encourage the Normans - now to locate that source (it's not on my list of really important things to do).
'Til then well, we're on hold here  :)
 

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BrotherAidan said:
I understand and appreciate your insights.

BTW, I was in a mainline denomination before converting to Orthodoxy, so I know what it is like being in a broad theological context. It's very frustrating. Perhaps reading about this unfortunate situation took me back to a place I am glad I no longer find myself and triggered the worst response.
A "Button" being pushed, as it were?  Being aware of ones 'hot buttons' can be helpful so that an untoward response won't be triggered.  :)  May one ask what Church you were part of before becoming EO?  If you prefer to not say, I apologize for asking.

Anyway good providence to you as you hang in there.
Thank you

Ebor
 

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Ebor said:
A "Button" being pushed, as it were?  Being aware of ones 'hot buttons' can be helpful so that an untoward response won't be triggered.  :)  May one ask what Church you were part of before becoming EO?  If you prefer to not say, I apologize for asking.

Thank you

Ebor
PCUSA (Presbyterian, mainline)
My sister's church, where I used to attend, just withdrew and applied for membership in the Evangelical Presbyterian Church.

Actually, that is precisely what I wanted to get away from - leaving denominations that constantly grew more liberal as you progressed through years away from the founders' vision, and needing to start another one. The idea of a 2,000 year old church, basically unchanged (by comparison) was a huge attraction for me toward Orthodoxy
 

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An update on this story.  It turns out that while the  Rev. Ms. Redding lives in the state of Washington, she is canonically resident in Rhode Island.  That is though not living there for some time, her orders/her bishop of authority is not +Olympia but +Rhode Island.  The holder of that diocese is the Right Rev. Geralyn Wolf.  Ms. Redding's canonical residence in RI goes back for quite some time, though she has not served there for over 2 decades, much longer then Bp. Wolf had had the see (since 1996). I point this out because, it is likely that Bp. Wolf has not had dealings with Ms. Redding, living as she did on the other side of the US, so did not know what was happening with this one person.  Maybe she was a name on a list of clergy and a bishop has lots of other  things to deal with.

On the Stand Firm site is news from "Titus One Nine" that Bp. Wolf has inhibited Ms. Redding for the period of one year as part of a Pastoral Directive for her to think over her beliefs, her calling as a priest and the conflicts that Bp. Wolf sees in them.  That means that she may not function in anyway as priest or deacon.

http://www.kendallharmon.net/t19/index.php/t19/article/4193/
http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/4194/

Please note some of the comments re Bp. Wolf's fairness and charitable behavior as well as holding to the vows and faith of her office.

Ebor
 

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Thanks for that Ebor! And I commend Bp. Wolf for her actions, as well as the charity with which she executed them.
Out of curiosity, given the unusual circumstances that Rev. Redding was working in a diocese other than her own when her bishop suspended her, is there a possibility that the Bishop of the Diocese in which she is working can overturn the decision to suspend her, and continue to allow her to function as a Priest in his diocese?
 

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ozgeorge said:
Out of curiosity, given the unusual circumstances that Rev. Redding was working in a diocese other than her own when her bishop suspended her, is there a possibility that the Bishop of the Diocese in which she is working can overturn the decision to suspend her, and continue to allow her to function as a Priest in his diocese?
No. She would have to be transferred to his diocese with a letter dimissory. The only thing he can do is bar her from exercising her ministry in his diocese.
 

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If Dr. Redding (my apologies for not using her title correctly in my earlier post) were to function in any clerical way while inhibited it would be extremely serious in breaking Church order and the same if +Olympia permitted her to do so in his diocese.  I don't think there is any way for an inhibited priest to transfer canonical residency; it's all at the pleasure of the bishop in authority (who would have imposed the inhibition).

Ebor
 

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The word has come down today that Redding was defrocked by Bishop Wolf after she refused to recant.
 

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Keble said:
The word has come down today that Redding was defrocked by Bishop Wolf after she refused to recant.
I am actually surprised at this point that they even bother acting like there are standards.
 

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username! said:
Don't they make some pill for that problem?  Seems they have one for everyother problem, just thought they might have one for this?
At this point I'm betting she's just a masocist, not that there's anything wrong with that at all, I'm as much a fan of le Marquis De Sade as any...I just wish she'd restrict her preferences to the bedroom. ;)
 

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Alveus Lacuna said:
Keble said:
The word has come down today that Redding was defrocked by Bishop Wolf after she refused to recant.
I am actually surprised at this point that they even bother acting like there are standards.
Hang on. As soon as Redding was found to be in heresy, she was suspended by he Bishop, and could not function as an Anglican Priest anwhere. The Defrocking is simply the final act after 2 years of investigation and her lack of repentance. It's not as if the Episcopal Church didn't act or even acted slowly in this case.
 

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lubeltri said:
I for one am glad we can both venerate St. Edward the Confessor.
Given that his relics are housed in an EO Old Calendar monastery, where catechumens are expected to remain in the narthex, I'm not actually sure you could venerate him (physically at least).
 

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Orthodox11 said:
Given that his relics are housed in an EO Old Calendar monastery, where catechumens are expected to remain in the narthex, I'm not actually sure you could venerate him (physically at least).
I thought that catechumens (and non-EO in general) were only expected to remain in the narthex during liturgical services.
 

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ozgeorge said:
Alveus Lacuna said:
Keble said:
The word has come down today that Redding was defrocked by Bishop Wolf after she refused to recant.
I am actually surprised at this point that they even bother acting like there are standards.
Hang on. As soon as Redding was found to be in heresy, she was suspended by he Bishop, and could not function as an Anglican Priest anwhere. The Defrocking is simply the final act after 2 years of investigation and her lack of repentance. It's not as if the Episcopal Church didn't act or even acted slowly in this case.
I think the point is that with all of the "nutty" things that the Anglicans and Episcopalians do there seems to be little point in doing something as sensible as defrocking her.

After all the Episcopal church of the USA has recently elevated a bishop who claims to also be a practicing Buddhist.  If he can be a bishop why is she being defrocked? Why was the priest who claimed to also be a druid similarly defrocked?

With their ordination of women, openly practicing homosexuals (both male and female) and this elevation of a bishop who claims to practice dual faiths this show of standards does appear to be a bit out of place.
 

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Schultz said:
I thought that catechumens (and non-EO in general) were only expected to remain in the narthex during liturgical services.
AFAIK, the reliquary is not opened unless it is a feast day of St. Edward and a service is going on. I might be wrong though.
 

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Orthodox11 said:
Schultz said:
I thought that catechumens (and non-EO in general) were only expected to remain in the narthex during liturgical services.
AFAIK, the reliquary is not opened unless it is a feast day of St. Edward and a service is going on. I might be wrong though.
Ah, I suppose that does make sense.

But are non-EO expected to remain in the narthex even at, say, Vespers or Compline?
 

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Carole said:
ozgeorge said:
Alveus Lacuna said:
Keble said:
The word has come down today that Redding was defrocked by Bishop Wolf after she refused to recant.
I am actually surprised at this point that they even bother acting like there are standards.
Hang on. As soon as Redding was found to be in heresy, she was suspended by he Bishop, and could not function as an Anglican Priest anwhere. The Defrocking is simply the final act after 2 years of investigation and her lack of repentance. It's not as if the Episcopal Church didn't act or even acted slowly in this case.
I think the point is that with all of the "nutty" things that the Anglicans and Episcopalians do there seems to be little point in doing something as sensible as defrocking her.

After all the Episcopal church of the USA has recently elevated a bishop who claims to also be a practicing Buddhist.  If he can be a bishop why is she being defrocked? Why was the priest who claimed to also be a druid similarly defrocked?

With their ordination of women, openly practicing homosexuals (both male and female) and this elevation of a bishop who claims to practice dual faiths this show of standards does appear to be a bit out of place.
The bishop-elect of the diocese of Northern Michigan (whose case I've been watching very closely, of course) does not claim to be a Buddhist. He certainly practices Zen meditation, but within the context of his Christian faith. A Buddhist is someone who has actually taken refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha. Thew Forrester, to my knowledge, has not done so.

The Archbishop of Canterbury was inducted into the Gorsedd of the Bards, a Welsh society of great contributors to Welsh life. (The Archbishop had been Archbishop of Wales.) The society's "druidry" has no connection to paganism.
 

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Alveus Lacuna said:
I am actually surprised at this point that they even bother acting like there are standards.
???  Sigh.  Bishop Wolf is not "acting" like anything. 
 

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rwprof said:
Carole said:
Why was the priest who claimed to also be a druid similarly defrocked?
Do you mean the Archbishop of Canterbury?
<Insert emoticon of banging one's head on the keyboard> 

No, not the Archbishop of Canterbury!  SIGH!  As has been stated he is a member of a Welsh organization that honours those who support and contribute to that culture.

If the above was not meant as merely a cheap shot at humour at another Church's expense and an answer is actually wanted, then it is likely that the person being referred to is William Melnyk from a case about 4 1/2 years ago if I recall correctly. He is no longer a priest.




 

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rwprof said:
Carole said:
Why was the priest who claimed to also be a druid similarly defrocked?
Do you mean the Archbishop of Canterbury?
No.  According the article I linked in my post there was an Episcopal priest in Pennsylvania (in 2004) who claimed to be a druid and was, per the article, defrocked.
 

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Oh yeah, Old "OakWyse".  His wife is still a priest near here.
 

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ozgeorge said:
Carole said:
After all the Episcopal church of the USA has recently elevated a bishop who claims to also be a practicing Buddhist.  If he can be a bishop
Actually, no. He has not been elevated yet. His election is yet to be approved by the Bishops.
If the Episcopal Church is anything like the Lutheran synods the Bishops very rarely (if ever) overturn an election.  He will likely be elevated in spite of his insistence that Zen meditation is not contradictory to Christianity.  ::)

But honestly, after the ordination of women and openly practicing homosexuals does it make a difference?  They've already acted in ways completely contrary to Christianity.  Nothing else is really all that surprising.
 
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