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Priest practices both Anglicanism and Islam

Keble

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It's not at all clear that Forrester up in N. Mich. is going to get his consents. Thus far most bishops who have announced their decision have voted against him, though the total thus far is quite small.
 

Keble

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The people at StandFirm are keeping count here, and David Virtue is keeping count here. The number of consents required is a bit blurry, what between rump and vacant thrones and the fact that Ed Gulick is bishop in one of the rump dioceses as well as in Kentucky. Best guess on this is 102 bishops and 108 standing committees, of which a majority of both is needed. Therefore 52 bishops and 55 SCs have to commit.

So far 28 bishops have announced they are not consenting, with two saying that will not say. (One of those, Geralyn Wolf, is reckoned to be a "no"-- see discussion above.) 10 bishops have consented. Of Gulick gets a vote for each throne, that would add another no. 23 more no responses would sink Forrester's consecration. It's hard to guess how this will go, as most bishops counted as more-or-less conservative have announced they are not consenting. THe cutoff date for consents is about 25 June.
 

Keble

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It has been officially announced that Forrester failed to get the necessary consents, so Northern Michigan will have to have another election. It is possible for them to reelect Forrester, though I suspect that he would fail again.
 
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Jetavan said:
Ann Holmes Redding (the Muslim-Christian) speaks (she is the second speaker here) at an Interfaith meeting, St. Mark's Cathedral, Seattle, 6 November, 2010.
St. Mark's is a beautiful church, and their Vespers, a service of Gregorian chant, is wonderful. It is sad to see it desecrated by such a ridiculous event.


I could only watch forty-four seconds of that.
 

Jibrail Almuhajir

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I confess that I don't know too much about Anglicanism/Episcopalianism, but I suspect that this woman and her hosts at St. Mark's, are not true representatives.  But then again, perhaps they are.  When Henry decided he made a matrimonial mistake, rather than take responsibility and try to do right, he simply called up 'ol Scratch and the two of them crafted an evil facsimile of the One, True Church.  One of the best scenarios of Protestantism one can think of.  Fast forward to today and it's really no surprise at all that we have people calling themselves "priests" and "bishops" in this religion.  I mean, they call themselves "Christians" so why not?  Here we have a "church" that is dedicated to the Holy Apostle and Saint, Mark.  Yet inside we find a woman extolling the virtues of Paganism and beckoning us to pray to "Mother Earth".  The next speaker is not only an idiot (academically speaking), she makes a complete mockery out of Christianity.  The Bible and Qu'ran are at complete, opposite odds with one another and any person who believes otherwise, especially someone who supposedly holds a PhD. is nothing but a disillusioned hack.  The same should be said for her religion that allows for this stupidity.   
 

PoorFoolNicholas

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laconicstudent said:
I could only watch forty-four seconds of that.
45 seconds?!! I could only stomach 15 seconds. What a joke. What are these people doing inside a church? Honestly?
 
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PoorFoolNicholas said:
laconicstudent said:
I could only watch forty-four seconds of that.
45 seconds?!! I could only stomach 15 seconds. What a joke. What are these people doing inside a church? Honestly?

PoorFoolNicholas, behold the Episcopalian church, you will never find a more wretched hive of ecumenism and religious syncretism. star wars reference ftw

Seriously though, they pull this insanity all the time. And as a result, nobody takes them seriously except as a Seattle cultural item, and a tourist attraction/cool thing to see for their Gregorian chant Vespers.

You don't even have to take my word for it, here's an image banner from their website.




And they have an icon of the Theotokos, for some reason, in a small shrine. That would be where the bowl of sand with the candles is from.
 

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Jetavan said:
LOL @ 9:29 - Someone may say "But Jesus, you seem so far away!" And Jesus says, "Sit with Cedar and Raven. They will teach you about me." BWHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Classic!

This is the clearest example of worship to the Great Whatever that I have yet seen.

Seriously, every video part of this series is totally hilarious (and disturbing)! Thanks for posting this; made my night.

Part 1-Entry and Opening the Directions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpXUlk5_tvM&feature=related    3:17 is special. She calls in the spirits of the winds. I didn't know invocations of spirits was permitted in "Christian" churches. I suppose it's fitting that the altar faces West. Oh, and holy crap at 6:57. Seriously, watch it.

Nice Byzantine icon behind the welcoming committee: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4OfDQeBRwk&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
 

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Alveus Lacuna said:
Jetavan said:
LOL @ 9:29 - Someone may say "But Jesus, you seem so far away!" And Jesus says, "Sit with Cedar and Raven. They will teach you about me." BWHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Classic!

This is the clearest example of worship to the Great Whatever that I have yet seen.

Seriously, every video part of this series is totally hilarious (and disturbing)! Thanks for posting this; made my night.

Part 1-Entry and Opening the Directions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpXUlk5_tvM&feature=related     3:17 is special. She calls in the spirits of the winds. I didn't know invocations of spirits was permitted in "Christian" churches. I suppose it's fitting that the altar faces West. Oh, and holy crap at 6:57. Seriously, watch it.

Nice Byzantine icon behind the welcoming committee: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4OfDQeBRwk&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Is that in a church and they're supposed to be Christians? They outdo even the Baha'i in their crazy mishmash of desperate beings that they invoke... they must really believe there is nothing bad in the universe or they would be more cautious. I won't be surprised when they start invoking Satan by name.
 

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Alveus Lacuna said:
Jetavan said:
LOL @ 9:29 - Someone may say "But Jesus, you seem so far away!" And Jesus says, "Sit with Cedar and Raven. They will teach you about me." BWHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Classic!

This is the clearest example of worship to the Great Whatever that I have yet seen.

Seriously, every video part of this series is totally hilarious (and disturbing)! Thanks for posting this; made my night.

Part 1-Entry and Opening the Directions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpXUlk5_tvM&feature=related     3:17 is special. She calls in the spirits of the winds. I didn't know invocations of spirits was permitted in "Christian" churches. I suppose it's fitting that the altar faces West. Oh, and holy crap at 6:57. Seriously, watch it.

Nice Byzantine icon behind the welcoming committee: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4OfDQeBRwk&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
I want to cry after watching that. Please tell me that was the local UUs borrowing the church. The Episcopalians have been known to lend their church to other faiths.
 

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Wow!  I had to stop watching it.  It was just to weird to watch a middle-class, white American woman act like an old Indian shaman.  When she asked her 'spirits' to 'shape-shift' the world, well, then it went from weird to creepy...


Alveus Lacuna said:
Jetavan said:
LOL @ 9:29 - Someone may say "But Jesus, you seem so far away!" And Jesus says, "Sit with Cedar and Raven. They will teach you about me." BWHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Classic!

This is the clearest example of worship to the Great Whatever that I have yet seen.

Seriously, every video part of this series is totally hilarious (and disturbing)! Thanks for posting this; made my night.

Part 1-Entry and Opening the Directions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpXUlk5_tvM&feature=related     3:17 is special. She calls in the spirits of the winds. I didn't know invocations of spirits was permitted in "Christian" churches. I suppose it's fitting that the altar faces West. Oh, and holy crap at 6:57. Seriously, watch it.

Nice Byzantine icon behind the welcoming committee: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4OfDQeBRwk&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
 

Ebor

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GabrieltheCelt said:
I confess that I don't know too much about Anglicanism/Episcopalianism, but I suspect that this woman and her hosts at St. Mark's, are not true representatives.  But then again, perhaps they are. 
No they're not. If you would like to know some real information about Anglican Christianity, please ask.

When Henry decided he made a matrimonial mistake, rather than take responsibility and try to do right, he simply called up 'ol Scratch and the two of them crafted an evil facsimile of the One, True Church. 
Sigh. No, that is not historically accurate nor what happened.  There is a thread here on OC.net about the historical context and truth of what happened at that time regarding the politics and other complications.
 
Fast forward to today and it's really no surprise at all that we have people calling themselves "priests" and "bishops" in this religion.  I mean, they call themselves "Christians" so why not?  Here we have a "church" that is dedicated to the Holy Apostle and Saint, Mark. 
Because we are Christians...no quotes needed.  :( and in my Church they *are* priests and bishops and the building is a church. 

Just to remind people.  Dr. Ann Holmes Redding was defrocked by her bishop after pastoral counseling and inhibition.  What she says is her own words and not anything official from the Episcopal Church nor the Anglican Communion. 

I wonder if this is what OzGeorge called the "purple demons" again, with pokes and uncharitable remarks against other human beings and other Churches.

Sigh again.  :(

Ebor
 

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Azurestone said:
Alveus Lacuna said:
Jetavan said:
LOL @ 9:29 - Someone may say "But Jesus, you seem so far away!" And Jesus says, "Sit with Cedar and Raven. They will teach you about me." BWHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Classic!

This is the clearest example of worship to the Great Whatever that I have yet seen.

Seriously, every video part of this series is totally hilarious (and disturbing)! Thanks for posting this; made my night.

Part 1-Entry and Opening the Directions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpXUlk5_tvM&feature=related     3:17 is special. She calls in the spirits of the winds. I didn't know invocations of spirits was permitted in "Christian" churches. I suppose it's fitting that the altar faces West. Oh, and holy crap at 6:57. Seriously, watch it.

Nice Byzantine icon behind the welcoming committee: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4OfDQeBRwk&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
I want to cry after watching that. Please tell me that was the local UUs borrowing the church. The Episcopalians have been known to lend their church to other faiths.
This wasn't a church service. It was an multi-faith event centered on ecological and environmental awareness, in which people of different faiths gathered together in support of a common social goal. The biblical "Tree of Life" was the central organizing idea:

You are invited to join in this historical moment known as the Great Turning by gathering around the ancient mythic image of the Tree of Life. This event features an address by author, environmental activist, and Gaian teacher Joanna Macy; storytelling by Michael Meade; liturgical dance by Betsey Beckman; and world music by Gina Salá. The evening is designed to bring together people of different spiritual and cultural traditions to express their sorrow and hope over the environmental and cultural upheaval our world is currently experiencing. The sacred space of the cathedral will be filled with the sights and sounds of dance, music, drumming, ritual, story, and song--a feast for the senses and the soul.

Interestingly, the event was co-sponsored by St. Mark's, as well as by the Tree of Life Project:

The Tree of Life Web Project (ToL) is a collaborative effort of biologists and nature enthusiasts from around the world. On more than 10,000 World Wide Web pages, the project provides information about biodiversity, the characteristics of different groups of organisms, and their evolutionary history....

 

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I don't think it can be denied that this does represent Anglicanism, since:

1) It took place in an Anglican cathedral with the permission of the presiding hierarch and,

2) The Anglican Church's prelates here or abroad made no effort to sanction the bishop (unless there is more to the story than the information thus far uncovered) who permitted the desecration of the sanctuary.

Since the altar has continued in use, then it seems that the Anglican Church is perfectly comfortable with what happened.  After all, it is an ANGLICAN altar and an ANGLICAN church.  They are not renting it from anybody else.  So, they must take full responsibility for the middle-class-hippie paganism that occured there.

If such a thing were to happen in an Orthodox parish or, if I may dare speak for someone else, a Roman Catholic one, there would be all kinds of disciplinary actions and the entire building would be subject to exorcisms and blessings and whatnot to drive off any residue of such filth.  What the Anglicans who run the Seattle church need to remember is that the building is not theirs if they truly worship God, but it is God's and His alone.  He does not have to share it with such 'spirits' as those invoked by the heresiomatron who presided over this debauchery.

I do not think it is logical to differentiate between practicing such abominations and permitting them to happen within one's own precincts.  The guilt is equally shared.
 

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FatherGiryus said:
[size=14pt]I don't think it can be denied that this does represent Anglicanism, since:

1) It took place in an Anglican cathedral with the permission of the presiding hierarch and,

2) The Anglican Church's prelates here or abroad made no effort to sanction the bishop (unless there is more to the story than the information thus far uncovered) who permitted the desecration of the sanctuary.



With all due respect Father, I'm not sure I agree that the decisions of one heirarch (or the lack of decisions by all the others) say anything at all about whether this represents Anglicanism or not. If we were to use that same measure which folks have used against Anglicanism against Orthodoxy would we not be at the least equally guilty? If I were to use this same criteria and and be convinced that "so and so action represents Orthodoxy because a Bishop allowed it" I would have left Orthodoxy long ago. Orthodoxy (through the heircarchy) allows and even condones all sorts of things that I find far more offensive than this, weird event in Seattle.


If such a thing were to happen in an Orthodox parish or, if I may dare speak for someone else, a Roman Catholic one, there would be all kinds of disciplinary actions and the entire building would be subject to exorcisms and blessings and whatnot to drive off any residue of such filth. 
Catholic Churches DO have Native American services where Natives pray and have ceremonial dances around the altar. However these situations take place with real Native Americans, doing real tribal ceremonies, (and it's more a cultural thing like the "yule tree" as done in Serbian Churches) and not a bunch of white people dressed up in Native attire. :) So it's not exactly the same thing, but visually it is a bit weird to see the first time.

It is true that this would never happen in an Orthodox parish, but I have seen a lot of shocking things take place; more so I've seen and heard and experienced Bishops (and priests) saying some terribly un-Christian things at times DURING the Liturgy itself. The sad thing is I sometimes feel like these uncharitable attitudes of Orthodox heirarchs are more representative of Orthodoxy as a whole than what I witnessed in this video being representative of Anglicanism. (granted I didn't watch the whole thing as my time is short this afternoon)


I do not think it is logical to differentiate between practicing such abominations and permitting them to happen within one's own precincts.  The guilt is equally shared.
Again, does that standard hold for Orthodoxy as well across the board? Or does it only hold for Liturgical bizarreness like this? I'm not defending what took place in this cathedral, but I find it more just a bunch of weirdness than anything really sinister or something we can use to deride Anglicanism. Just my opinion nothing more though.

 

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Specifics, please!

Really, I can't properly respond unless you actually state events conducted in Orthodox parishes that were publicly known and not subject to discipline. 

However, I would also add that I have never heard of an Orthodox parish beingnused for a pagan ritual.  If it has happened, I would be the first to press for an inquiry and the canonical punishment of those who are guilty.  I also imagine that I would have lots of compatriots in such an effort.


NorthernPines said:
With all due respect Father, I'm not sure I agree that the decisions of one heirarch (or the lack of decisions by all the others) say anything at all about whether this represents Anglicanism or not. If we were to use that same measure which folks have used against Anglicanism against Orthodoxy would we not be at the least equally guilty? If I were to use this same criteria and and be convinced that "so and so action represents Orthodoxy because a Bishop allowed it" I would have left Orthodoxy long ago. Orthodoxy (through the heircarchy) allows and even condones all sorts of things that I find far more offensive than this, weird event in Seattle.
There is a difference between  'liturgical bizzareness' and pagan worship in a Christian church.  Again, please read carefully what I have said.  If the church belongs to God, then who are we to give it over to strange gods?

NorthernPines said:
Again, does that standard hold for Orthodoxy as well across the board? Or does it only hold for Liturgical bizarreness like this? I'm not defending what took place in this cathedral, but I find it more just a bunch of weirdness than anything really sinister or something we can use to deride Anglicanism. Just my opinion nothing more though.
 

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Ebor said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
I confess that I don't know too much about Anglicanism/Episcopalianism, but I suspect that this woman and her hosts at St. Mark's, are not true representatives.  But then again, perhaps they are. 
No they're not. If you would like to know some real information about Anglican Christianity, please ask.

When Henry decided he made a matrimonial mistake, rather than take responsibility and try to do right, he simply called up 'ol Scratch and the two of them crafted an evil facsimile of the One, True Church. 
Sigh. No, that is not historically accurate nor what happened.  There is a thread here on OC.net about the historical context and truth of what happened at that time regarding the politics and other complications.
 
Fast forward to today and it's really no surprise at all that we have people calling themselves "priests" and "bishops" in this religion.  I mean, they call themselves "Christians" so why not?  Here we have a "church" that is dedicated to the Holy Apostle and Saint, Mark. 
Because we are Christians...no quotes needed.  :( and in my Church they *are* priests and bishops and the building is a church. 

Just to remind people.  Dr. Ann Holmes Redding was defrocked by her bishop after pastoral counseling and inhibition.  What she says is her own words and not anything official from the Episcopal Church nor the Anglican Communion. 

I wonder if this is what OzGeorge called the "purple demons" again, with pokes and uncharitable remarks against other human beings and other Churches.

Sigh again.  :(

Ebor
Ebor, I would have to sadly disagree on a lot of your points.  Things like this are becoming more and more representative of, if not Anglicanism (I would not besmirch the communities of Africa and South America that are struggling to keep the faith), then the Episcopal Church.

While it is true that there are Episcopalians, such as yourself, who still try to adhere to some form of Christian tradition and practice, this segment is becoming more and more the minority.  Parishes that believe in the tenets of classical Anglicanism (whether High or Low) are growing fewer and fewer, and the problem is even worse at the diocesan level. 

To further the problem, the Episcopal Church has been hijacked by a woman with papal pretensions who completely over-rides all the canons and guidelines of tEC in her efforts to persecute this shrinking minority and remake the church in the image of her and her ilk.

The ability to think of "Episcopalian" and "Christian" as synonyms has been irreparably damaged for the foreseeable future.  Consider yourself fortunate if you are in a diocese where the two have not become mutually exclusive.
 

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I was getting uncomfortable the closer and closer the dancers crept to the altar. I was honestly fearing that someone was going to start spinning on the altar, or lay on it, or something like that.
 

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FormerReformer said:
Ebor, I would have to sadly disagree on a lot of your points.  Things like this are becoming more and more representative of, if not Anglicanism (I would not besmirch the communities of Africa and South America that are struggling to keep the faith), then the Episcopal Church. While it is true that there are Episcopalians, such as yourself, who still try to adhere to some form of Christian tradition and practice, this segment is becoming more and more the minority. Parishes that believe in the tenets of classical Anglicanism (whether High or Low) are growing fewer and fewer, and the problem is even worse at the diocesan level. To further the problem, the Episcopal Church has been hijacked by a woman with papal pretensions who completely over-rides all the canons and guidelines of tEC in her efforts to persecute this shrinking minority and remake the church in the image of her and her ilk. The ability to think of "Episcopalian" and "Christian" as synonyms has been irreparably damaged for the foreseeable future.  Consider yourself fortunate if you are in a diocese where the two have not become mutually exclusive.
I totally agree.
[/quote]
 
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Alveus Lacuna said:
I was getting uncomfortable the closer and closer the dancers crept to the altar. I was honestly fearing that someone was going to start spinning on the altar, or lay on it, or something like that.
That's a really disturbing idea.  :-\ :'(
 

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Ebor said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
I confess that I don't know too much about Anglicanism/Episcopalianism, but I suspect that this woman and her hosts at St. Mark's, are not true representatives.  But then again, perhaps they are.
No they're not.
But if they call themselves Anglicans and meet in an Anglican church and ...yada, yada, yada... then I have a right to assume they represent the Anglican church.  "If it walks and quacks like a duck...".  


Fast forward to today and it's really no surprise at all that we have people calling themselves "priests" and "bishops" in this religion.  I mean, they call themselves "Christians" so why not?  Here we have a "church" that is dedicated to the Holy Apostle and Saint, Mark.
Ebor said:
Because we are Christians...no quotes needed.  :( and in my Church they *are* priests and bishops and the building is a church.
I am not speaking of you now, Ebor.  But I am adamant that these people in the video are NOT Christians.  They are preaching a false, non-existent Christ.  They are sheep in wolves clothing that the REAL Christ warned us about.  They are liars and under the influence of Satan.  Again, I am not speaking about you.
 
Ebor said:
Just to remind people.  Dr. Ann Holmes Redding was defrocked by her bishop after pastoral counseling and inhibition.  What she says is her own words and not anything official from the Episcopal Church nor the Anglican Communion.
Then why is she allowed to spew this vomit inside an Anglican Church?

 
Ebor said:
 
I wonder if this is what OzGeorge called the "purple demons" again, with pokes and uncharitable remarks against other human beings and other Churches.
My words are not charitable because these wolves are attempting to destroy Christianity and they must be met with the Truth, which sometimes hurts.  These "christians" are mocking Christians, and they're a plague upon all that is Sacred.

Ebor said:
Sigh again.  :(
Yes, indeed.  But, as Scripture tells us, the gates of Hell shall not triumph.

I actually have a lot of respect for you, Ebor.  And I know that you abhor these things as much as I do.
 

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FatherGiryus said:
[size=14pt]Specifics, please!

Really, I can't properly respond unless you actually state events conducted in Orthodox parishes that were publicly known and not subject to discipline. 



Sorry Father, I will not (not that I cannot but I will not) give some of the more ugly specifics. While I believe transparency and openness is vital to the Church's well being and health, and I'm not afraid of the repercussions for myself, I do not believe these boards are the proper venue for such airing of our dirty laundry. If you wish me to give specifics that have not been broadcast over the internet I could do so privately, but I think forwarding you to www.ocanews.org and www.pokrov.org should be sufficient evidence that if I judged the Orthodox faith by what Bishops and priests knowingly do and/or allow without any sort of discipline, Orthodoxy would be just as guilty, if not more so, as Anglicanism is in the eyes of many Orthodox because of this event. 

However, I would also add that I have never heard of an Orthodox parish beingnused for a pagan ritual. 
Well I sort of concede that point in the sense that no Orthodox Church is being used to pray to gods other that the Holy Trinity. But I don't think it's entirely accurate to say we don't have pagan "rituals". I could argue that things like the burning of the Yule Log are in fact "pagan rituals" which of course have been Christianized by the Church. They are now entirely Christian of course and I personally do not have a problem with this at all. But ask almost  any Fundamentalist Protestant and they will insist we are doing the same thing that was done in Seattle.  Of course we know this is not true, but isn't it possible we are jumping to conclusions as well? Maybe these people just see "the spirit of the north" (or whatever she was praying to) as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit or something? I would reckon that is how most people in that church understood it even if the leader of the thing really thought she was praying to some other "gods". To hold 1000 people inside a Church as guilty (not to mention 80 million Anglicans around the world) for the actions of one woman, cathedral and one Bishop seems extreme to me.

Besides even some Traditionalist Orthodox Christians, as represented by www.orthodoxinfo.com have over the years given explicit examples of how "mainstream liberal" hierarchs have participated in "pagan rituals" so the accusation has been used against New Calendar Orthodox by some (but not all or even most) Old Calendar Orthodox. If you were to ask some Old Calendar Orthodox what they thought of Orthodox Churches lending/renting their sanctuaries to Coptic Christians you'd get the same reaction towards us; that we've "defiled out Altar" and have allowed "heretics to take over the Church" etc.


If this is merely about pagan rituals in an Orthodox church then yes, we stand essentially innocent. (or entirely innocent if it's narrowed down to prayer to pagan deities) But your words seemed to be far more broad than that; I took them to mean that an entire Christian communion is responsible for the actions of one Bishop's horrible negligence. If that is the case then we stand just as guilty as anyone.

I'm not defending what took place at this Church, or pagan prayers inside a Church however I think it's unfair to label Anglicans around the world as something less than Christian because of the un-Christian actions of one Anglican See in the United States. Again, if we measure ourselves by the same rod we are measuring them, where do we stand exactly?

Maybe I'm just being too nitpicky or maybe I'm taking your words in too general a sense, I don't know. but then I don't know a lot of things and so another gap in my ignorance wouldn't be that much of a shock to me. :)

NP

 

FatherGiryus

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Well, let's just say that an ambiguous accusation begets an ambiguous defense.  ;)

I think there is a critical difference between moral lapses versus apostasy.  For example, when moral codes are violated, one still retains one's identity as a _________.  However, once that identity is changed (which is what happens when a Christian worships/honors/invokes another god), then you are talking about a very different problem.

To worship another god, or to permit the sanctuary to be used for the worship of a foreign deity, is to lose one's Christianity.  I have significant problems with allowing a heterodox to worship his version of Christ on an Orthodox altar (or visa versa for that matter), but there is at least a shared intent to find Jesus Christ, whereas a pagan worshipping his deity at a Christian altar is not looking for Christ at all, but the 'Great Whatever' as another poster so eloquently summarized it.

This does not excuse Orthodox who defile the name of God through their bold-faced sins.  But, I don't think you can equate the two.

While I have heard that Orthodox hierarchs have been present for heterodox 'services,' I know of no Orthodox bishop who has engaged in pagan worship or permitted a church to be defiled by pagan activity.  I know of one case where an Orthodox metropolitan was present for an ecumenical gathering that looked 'pagan,' but was actually, more or less, an attempt to have an 'indigenous Christian' service (read drums and facepaint in the name of Christ, something that my 'inner hunter-gatherer' can appreciate).  Orthodoxy can absorb pagan elements, but they are always stripped of their pagan gods prior to assimilation.

The last controversy I heard of was that surrounding a Romanian metropolitan who received communion in an RC church.  Afterwards, however, he received a rebuke from his synod and repented.  That's how we roll.


NorthernPines said:
FatherGiryus said:
[size=14pt]Specifics, please!

Really, I can't properly respond unless you actually state events conducted in Orthodox parishes that were publicly known and not subject to discipline. 



Sorry Father, I will not (not that I cannot but I will not) give some of the more ugly specifics. While I believe transparency and openness is vital to the Church's well being and health, and I'm not afraid of the repercussions for myself, I do not believe these boards are the proper venue for such airing of our dirty laundry. If you wish me to give specifics that have not been broadcast over the internet I could do so privately, but I think forwarding you to www.ocanews.org and www.pokrov.org should be sufficient evidence that if I judged the Orthodox faith by what Bishops and priests knowingly do and/or allow without any sort of discipline, Orthodoxy would be just as guilty, if not more so, as Anglicanism is in the eyes of many Orthodox because of this event. 

However, I would also add that I have never heard of an Orthodox parish beingnused for a pagan ritual. 
Well I sort of concede that point in the sense that no Orthodox Church is being used to pray to gods other that the Holy Trinity. But I don't think it's entirely accurate to say we don't have pagan "rituals". I could argue that things like the burning of the Yule Log are in fact "pagan rituals" which of course have been Christianized by the Church. They are now entirely Christian of course and I personally do not have a problem with this at all. But ask almost  any Fundamentalist Protestant and they will insist we are doing the same thing that was done in Seattle.  Of course we know this is not true, but isn't it possible we are jumping to conclusions as well? Maybe these people just see "the spirit of the north" (or whatever she was praying to) as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit or something? I would reckon that is how most people in that church understood it even if the leader of the thing really thought she was praying to some other "gods". To hold 1000 people inside a Church as guilty (not to mention 80 million Anglicans around the world) for the actions of one woman, cathedral and one Bishop seems extreme to me.

Besides even some Traditionalist Orthodox Christians, as represented by www.orthodoxinfo.com have over the years given explicit examples of how "mainstream liberal" hierarchs have participated in "pagan rituals" so the accusation has been used against New Calendar Orthodox by some (but not all or even most) Old Calendar Orthodox. If you were to ask some Old Calendar Orthodox what they thought of Orthodox Churches lending/renting their sanctuaries to Coptic Christians you'd get the same reaction towards us; that we've "defiled out Altar" and have allowed "heretics to take over the Church" etc.


If this is merely about pagan rituals in an Orthodox church then yes, we stand essentially innocent. (or entirely innocent if it's narrowed down to prayer to pagan deities) But your words seemed to be far more broad than that; I took them to mean that an entire Christian communion is responsible for the actions of one Bishop's horrible negligence. If that is the case then we stand just as guilty as anyone.

I'm not defending what took place at this Church, or pagan prayers inside a Church however I think it's unfair to label Anglicans around the world as something less than Christian because of the un-Christian actions of one Anglican See in the United States. Again, if we measure ourselves by the same rod we are measuring them, where do we stand exactly?

Maybe I'm just being too nitpicky or maybe I'm taking your words in too general a sense, I don't know. but then I don't know a lot of things and so another gap in my ignorance wouldn't be that much of a shock to me. :)

NP


 

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FatherGiryus said:
Well, let's just say that an ambiguous accusation begets an ambiguous defense.   ;)

I think there is a critical difference between moral lapses versus apostasy.  For example, when moral codes are violated, one still retains one's identity as a _________.  However, once that identity is changed (which is what happens when a Christian worships/honors/invokes another god), then you are talking about a very different problem.

To worship another god, or to permit the sanctuary to be used for the worship of a foreign deity, is to lose one's Christianity.  I have significant problems with allowing a heterodox to worship his version of Christ on an Orthodox altar (or visa versa for that matter), but there is at least a shared intent to find Jesus Christ, whereas a pagan worshipping his deity at a Christian altar is not looking for Christ at all, but the 'Great Whatever' as another poster so eloquently summarized it.

This does not excuse Orthodox who defile the name of God through their bold-faced sins.  But, I don't think you can equate the two.

While I have heard that Orthodox hierarchs have been present for heterodox 'services,' I know of no Orthodox bishop who has engaged in pagan worship or permitted a church to be defiled by pagan activity.  I know of one case where an Orthodox metropolitan was present for an ecumenical gathering that looked 'pagan,' but was actually, more or less, an attempt to have an 'indigenous Christian' service (read drums and facepaint in the name of Christ, something that my 'inner hunter-gatherer' can appreciate).  Orthodoxy can absorb pagan elements, but they are always stripped of their pagan gods prior to assimilation.

The last controversy I heard of was that surrounding a Romanian metropolitan who received communion in an RC church.  Afterwards, however, he received a rebuke from his synod and repented.  That's how we roll.
Amen, Father.  I think this sums up what I was saying in my posts. 
 

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GabrieltheCelt said:
FatherGiryus said:
Well, let's just say that an ambiguous accusation begets an ambiguous defense.   ;)

I think there is a critical difference between moral lapses versus apostasy.  For example, when moral codes are violated, one still retains one's identity as a _________.  However, once that identity is changed (which is what happens when a Christian worships/honors/invokes another god), then you are talking about a very different problem.

To worship another god, or to permit the sanctuary to be used for the worship of a foreign deity, is to lose one's Christianity.  I have significant problems with allowing a heterodox to worship his version of Christ on an Orthodox altar (or visa versa for that matter), but there is at least a shared intent to find Jesus Christ, whereas a pagan worshipping his deity at a Christian altar is not looking for Christ at all, but the 'Great Whatever' as another poster so eloquently summarized it.

This does not excuse Orthodox who defile the name of God through their bold-faced sins.  But, I don't think you can equate the two.

While I have heard that Orthodox hierarchs have been present for heterodox 'services,' I know of no Orthodox bishop who has engaged in pagan worship or permitted a church to be defiled by pagan activity.  I know of one case where an Orthodox metropolitan was present for an ecumenical gathering that looked 'pagan,' but was actually, more or less, an attempt to have an 'indigenous Christian' service (read drums and facepaint in the name of Christ, something that my 'inner hunter-gatherer' can appreciate).  Orthodoxy can absorb pagan elements, but they are always stripped of their pagan gods prior to assimilation.

The last controversy I heard of was that surrounding a Romanian metropolitan who received communion in an RC church.  Afterwards, however, he received a rebuke from his synod and repented.  That's how we roll.
Amen, Father.  I think this sums up what I was saying in my posts. 
What about Jewish services?
 

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Azurestone said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
FatherGiryus said:
Well, let's just say that an ambiguous accusation begets an ambiguous defense.   ;)

I think there is a critical difference between moral lapses versus apostasy.  For example, when moral codes are violated, one still retains one's identity as a _________.  However, once that identity is changed (which is what happens when a Christian worships/honors/invokes another god), then you are talking about a very different problem.

To worship another god, or to permit the sanctuary to be used for the worship of a foreign deity, is to lose one's Christianity.  I have significant problems with allowing a heterodox to worship his version of Christ on an Orthodox altar (or visa versa for that matter), but there is at least a shared intent to find Jesus Christ, whereas a pagan worshipping his deity at a Christian altar is not looking for Christ at all, but the 'Great Whatever' as another poster so eloquently summarized it.

This does not excuse Orthodox who defile the name of God through their bold-faced sins.  But, I don't think you can equate the two.

While I have heard that Orthodox hierarchs have been present for heterodox 'services,' I know of no Orthodox bishop who has engaged in pagan worship or permitted a church to be defiled by pagan activity.  I know of one case where an Orthodox metropolitan was present for an ecumenical gathering that looked 'pagan,' but was actually, more or less, an attempt to have an 'indigenous Christian' service (read drums and facepaint in the name of Christ, something that my 'inner hunter-gatherer' can appreciate).  Orthodoxy can absorb pagan elements, but they are always stripped of their pagan gods prior to assimilation.

The last controversy I heard of was that surrounding a Romanian metropolitan who received communion in an RC church.  Afterwards, however, he received a rebuke from his synod and repented.  That's how we roll.
Amen, Father.  I think this sums up what I was saying in my posts. 
What about Jewish services?
I think Judaism is a non-Christian religion.
 

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Jetavan said:
Azurestone said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
FatherGiryus said:
Well, let's just say that an ambiguous accusation begets an ambiguous defense.   ;)

I think there is a critical difference between moral lapses versus apostasy.  For example, when moral codes are violated, one still retains one's identity as a _________.  However, once that identity is changed (which is what happens when a Christian worships/honors/invokes another god), then you are talking about a very different problem.

To worship another god, or to permit the sanctuary to be used for the worship of a foreign deity, is to lose one's Christianity.  I have significant problems with allowing a heterodox to worship his version of Christ on an Orthodox altar (or visa versa for that matter), but there is at least a shared intent to find Jesus Christ, whereas a pagan worshipping his deity at a Christian altar is not looking for Christ at all, but the 'Great Whatever' as another poster so eloquently summarized it.

This does not excuse Orthodox who defile the name of God through their bold-faced sins.  But, I don't think you can equate the two.

While I have heard that Orthodox hierarchs have been present for heterodox 'services,' I know of no Orthodox bishop who has engaged in pagan worship or permitted a church to be defiled by pagan activity.  I know of one case where an Orthodox metropolitan was present for an ecumenical gathering that looked 'pagan,' but was actually, more or less, an attempt to have an 'indigenous Christian' service (read drums and facepaint in the name of Christ, something that my 'inner hunter-gatherer' can appreciate).  Orthodoxy can absorb pagan elements, but they are always stripped of their pagan gods prior to assimilation.

The last controversy I heard of was that surrounding a Romanian metropolitan who received communion in an RC church.  Afterwards, however, he received a rebuke from his synod and repented.  That's how we roll.
Amen, Father.  I think this sums up what I was saying in my posts. 
What about Jewish services?
I think Judaism is a non-Christian religion.
Sorry. I was ambiguous with that question.

Orthodox bishops, even recently, have participated in a Jewish service. Do you see this as acceptable, or akin to sharing the church?
 

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This woman is a complete moron, you're either Christian or you're Muslim, you simply can't practice and believe both. Either you believe he was the Son of God, God and the messiah and that no one will come after him, that he shed his blood on the cross for our sins and that the bible is the perfected word of God (Christianity) or you believe he was just a prophet of God and that Muhammad is the seal of the prophets, the last and final messenger and that al-Qur'an is the final perfected word of God, superior to all previous books (Islaam). There is so many things wrong with what she is saying it's both absurd and ridiculous that a 'priest' would make such a moronic claim. Like, really? Are you serious? To think this woman is a 'teacher' too. All, I can really say is wow, the stupidity of people amazes me sometimes.
 

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Jetavan said:
Ann Holmes Redding describes (in "Together We Can Thrive, Part I") how she became a Muslim-Christian.
I could only watch about 30 seconds of that before the drivel became too annoying. "Follow your heart, your heart will never lead you astray." A saccharine platitude that is completely wrong. Most people don't know their own hearts and what motivates them.
 

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Jetavan said:
Ann Holmes Redding describes (in "Together We Can Thrive, Part I") how she became a Muslim-Christian.
I know alot of Muslims, I know more about Islaam than I do about Christianity and can say, with all certainty, both of these clowns would be hard pressed to find anyone in the ulema or any Muslims among the laity that would support and or agree with them. I think the same could be said for Christianity and Christians. Again, both of these people are morons, you either one or the other. Not mentioning the fact that women shouldn't be priests or head services and both Muslims and Christians would agree to this. Instead of "listening to your heart," how about you listen to the word and laws of God, whether you follow Christianity or Islaam. If she was truly a Muslim she should wear hijab, the hijab is wajib upon all Muslimas, most especially when they are among men whom are not their relatives or husband and she doesn't much look like a hijabi to me.
 

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Can you post the link so I can see for myself?

Azurestone said:
Sorry. I was ambiguous with that question.

Orthodox bishops, even recently, have participated in a Jewish service. Do you see this as acceptable, or akin to sharing the church?
 

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FatherGiryus said:
Can you post the link so I can see for myself?

Azurestone said:
Sorry. I was ambiguous with that question.

Orthodox bishops, even recently, have participated in a Jewish service. Do you see this as acceptable, or akin to sharing the church?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=32071.0;all
 

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Thank you.

Because of the editing, I'm not sure if it was a service or a press conference.  As I understand Hannukah, one candle is lit each night.  It seems that all of them were being lit at the same time.  I also noticed that many of the males present did not have their heads covered (i.e. no kipas) nor did the rabbis have their talises, which makes me wonder if this was anything but a symbolic ceremony versus an actual service.


Azurestone said:
FatherGiryus said:
Can you post the link so I can see for myself?

Azurestone said:
Sorry. I was ambiguous with that question.

Orthodox bishops, even recently, have participated in a Jewish service. Do you see this as acceptable, or akin to sharing the church?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=32071.0;all
 
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